Star Wars Episodes I-VII Viewing Party: REVENGE OF THE SITH

Sylvia Snow wrote:

Also, I wonder what if Yoda is capable to defeat Palpatine but by doing so, he must tapped into the DarkSide, since it was said that if Yoda chooses the DakSide, he would be the strongest one, even able to conquer Death, and during the fight with Pal, Yoda almost did just that but he stopped in time and defeated. At the end of the fight, Yoda lost his saber and the Jedi robe, meaning that he's no longer a Jedi, that he have fallen, go against the principle of Jedi and let the Sith win, so as punishment Yoda choose to exile

@Sylvia Snow

Interesting. I hadn't thought of it like that...

@armadeus i do think there is harshness in his treatment of padme already in the film, i'm guessing for plot convenience he couldn't kill her in the cruel irony of these things. but it's a bit of a cop out the way it is done.

i hate so much how smugly and self-satisfied obi-wan enters the scene. i remember having these drawn out arguments with people then about how obi-wan was really provocative and not helping anything at all. i don't understand why people love that character so much.

the contrast with han is so apparent, it's not just because han cannot possibly win against his son, not with weapons, but also because he is so genuinely also sad abotu the situation. that really sells it me. obi-wan is just ... i would have fought him too.

but yeah, poor padme can't get this right.

@Armadeus What strikes me the most about opera house is that Palp explains Anakin's origin which Anakin totally doesn't get. He even pauses a little to see if Anakin's wheels are turning, see they totally aren't, slightly sighs and moves on to what actually perks Anakin's ears - that Plagueis could stop death. So the reveal about Anakin's origin is for the audience only. It goes over Anakin's head 100%. Which, IMO, is a really good way to drop a bombshell when you know that you can't top "I am your father" moment.

@guardienne I think that parallels with Anakin show exactly where they are similar and where they are not. Kylo isn't a complete replica of Anakin. He's very similar to him in temper but he also has many things from Han, Leia and Padme. They really did a bang on job with Kylo as the legacy of the big 4.

I also agree that it's a cop out that Anakin kind of knocks her out and than she dies cause she lost the will to live. Obviously he was supposed to kill her but Lucas copped out, so we got that clunker of an ending where everyone knows what really happened except that it isn't acknowledged canonically (in order to make Anakin look more redeemable).

@Armadeus that comic of yours proves that Anakin killed Padme and that GL sugar coated it in the movie cause that's what he does.

@Sylvia Snow OB1 could never save Anakin cause it isn't mentor's job. Mentors can never save their students because the point is that student breaks away from mentor and stands on his/her own feet. Therefore, they'll be saved because of other motivation such as romantic love or love for their children. The point is in going forward and growing up. That's why Han and Leia can't succeed in saving Ben. It has to be either his love for Rey or for his child. Both represent maturity. It's a trope but efficient one.

Also, definitely agreed that lava = raging hate, snow = fresh start or at least something that calms rage (we've seen that Kylo calmed while Rey got fueled).

@vaderito

Yeah, Padme's death in the film never sat right with me. Even watching it in the theater back in the day I remember just going: 'Wait, what? "She's lost the will to live?" What the f*** does that mean? The hell kind of medical droid are you?' Such a waste.

@guardienne

I get what you're saying; there is something off about the way Obi-Wan enters the scene and how he handles the whole scenario. I guess I could make the excuse that he was probably meditating during the flight to Mustafar, purging himself of all emotion and attachment so that he would be ready to fight Vader. But this is just my headcanon, so feel free to disagree.

@armadeus there is a very good essay on heroic vulnerability on tor.com which analyses very explicitly the lack of it in the prequels. (it's really really good)

it's significant that both luke and han were able to face their, er, relative with such humility. i think that is the one reason they can actually get through to them. i know everyone is seeing the opposite wrt kylo ren but i think he crumbles because he can't simply fight and make an excuse for killing his dad. he's gotta do it and be present for it. which is beautiful in a twisted way to me. like, han demands a different kind of respect from him.

obi-wan is just... wrong. he's really antagonistic and really not showing any true emotions. and then he goes on about abstract concepts such as democracy and i know democracy means something to people and all, but anakin i think is interested in people. he supports palpatine because palpatine is his mentor and his friend. there are other factors but i think he is attached to palpatine. ...

i guess obi-wan did meditate and freed himself from those silly attachments but that's not how i would want a friend reach out to me. it's like he's already made up his mind and judged, which admittedly isn't that hard to begin with *sigh*

still, i really find him very smug and very self-righteous.

@vaderito

i guess it was difficult to write her giving birth, him not knowing about it but also her having to find out about his turn herself ... but yeah it's annoying that he didn't actually kill her, although i can't even begin to imagine the outrage then. i remember so many posts about domestic abuse. it's true he attacks her and it's wrong but i don't think it makes him a domestic abuser.

@guardienne Freakin antis. I'm sick of domestic abuse arguments. What, movies cannot depict domestic abuse anymore or someone will accuse them that they promote it? It's like that idiotic controversy that ZDT was pro-torture and advocating for it because it was depicted in the movie.

Anakin turned to the dark side so it's only natural that he mis-treated Padme. That's the point of turning to the DS! It's a cautionary tale. The movie never depicted it as something positive. Also, it's a fantasy movie with different rules. Vader choking Padme is not domestic abuse in that universe. It's something else, so when Padme says "there's still good in him" it isn't forgiving domestic abuse. Turning Dark is different thing than domestic abuse altogether. Different universe. Some people should either stop watching movies or stop commenting on them since they clearly don't know how to watch them. That's the same crowd that insist that Rey should only end up with Finn cause "he deserves her", nevermind that she doesn't feel right kind of attraction to him. It's either Finn or life in solitude. How regressive.

@vaderito it's a very literal reading and it annoys me too. you are right, turning to the dark side is never depicted as something aspirational so they must show him do despicable things and what is more despicable and irnoic than him turning on the person he is trying to protect? i think that aspect of it still stands.

and obviously and insensitively obi-wan makes it look like she deceived him. he's like a breezeblock in this.

and i love your observation about how she is a little like rey (i think) but the scene is more like the bridge scene with han but kylo ren is much more willing to go... it's wonderful how they manage to echo so many different scenes in one in TFA.

@guardienne Literal reading needs to die. What happened to this world? Movies are escapism, not real life. That's the whole point. They aren't real and they don't inspire people to jump out of windows thinking they can fly. or choke their wives cause unlikable bad guy did it. Movie don't make real people better or worse because real people know it's only movies.

Padme's dress in that scene is similar to Rey's because of sleeves and color:





OB1's appearance was the worst timing ever. Plus wrong attitude. That was only going to rile up Anakin.

@vaderito obi-wan has NO people skills this is his partner and it's like he doesn't know him at all, none of his fears, none of his anger. and you could say, anakin is just really really good at hiding this but really? if these guys had had any people skills, they could have picked that up a mile away. it baffles me because anakin is not secretive about it, not for the audience anyway.

guardienne wrote: obi-wan has NO people skills this is his partner and it's like he doesn't know him at all, none of his fears, none of his anger. and you could say, anakin is just really really good at hiding this but really? if these guys had had any people skills, they could have picked that up a mile away. it baffles me because anakin is not secretive about it, not for the audience anyway.

@guardienne

My biggest problem with TP is that no one knows about Anidala even though every FS should pick up on Anakin's impossible-to-hide feelings just like any non-FS should pick up on them or Anidala them given total lack of discretion. And than GL pulls a "Yoda knew after all but did nothing with that info" in ROTS when Yoda says to OB1, "search your feelings and you'll find him" and OB1 goes straight to Padme. Like, WTF? Di you know or did you not? cause for 2 movies and almost entire one movie you all acted as you did not.

TFA did a good job with Kylo's dismissing the droid search so he could bridal carry Rey, that everyone read as his crush, so news was conveyed to Hux as such and Hux called him out on that in front of Snoke. Because it is a crush! But those people don't know Kylo intimately yet OB1 who should know Anakin so was clueless about everything! Just ugh.

@vaderito

i always took there ignorance as something that just didn't occur to them. like, it's literally their blind spot. none of them had ever considered getting married because of the evil attachments so it could happen right under their noses.

they had no experience with kids whose parents weren't the order. it's new to them and they make zero effort.

i think this blind spot is consistent with yoda's reaction to anakin's confession and how he goes on about attachments and stuff. anakin is obviously stressing about something but yoda is oblivious to it. so it's like, they couldn't read his feelings, you know, which is also evident in all their other dealings with him re: being on the council and all that. none of it is done with any sensitivity or understanding.

which is funny because they seem to think of themselves as this benevolent force but throw their own members under the bus like that.

guardienne wrote:@vaderito

i always took there ignorance as something that just didn't occur to them. like, it's literally their blind spot. none of them had ever considered getting married because of the evil attachments so it could happen right under their noses.

they had no experience with kids whose parents weren't the order. it's new to them and they make zero effort.

i think this blind spot is consistent with yoda's reaction to anakin's confession and how he goes on about attachments and stuff. anakin is obviously stressing about something but yoda is oblivious to it. so it's like, they couldn't read his feelings, you know, which is also evident in all their other dealings with him re: being on the council and all that. none of it is done with any sensitivity or understanding.

which is funny because they seem to think of themselves as this benevolent force but throw their own members under the bus like that.

@guardienne

Agreed. That scene where Anakin is asking Yoda's advise about his Force dream is such proof that Jedi were horribly out of touch with basic human nature:

"Death is a natural part of life. rejoice for those who transform into the Force and those who do not miss them not. Attachment leads to jealousy, the shadow of greed that is."

"Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose"

Like, WTF? he is saying the same crap he said to Anakin when he felt that Anakin was afraid for his mother. It's his freakin mother. You can't tell someone to train to let go of a mother and rejoice when she dies cause that's natural part of life. Likewise, his advise is garbage because Anakin means his wife so, again, all the dogma about rejoicing when someone transforms into the Force and letting go and having no attachment doesn't work here. No understanding how human nature works whatsoever. No wonder they were wiped out eventually. It a miracle it took 1000 years, lol.

haha, you know, i spent like a year debating this and it went nowhere because ... the jedi are heroes!!!! and they do nothing wrong.

i rolled my eyes almost out of their sockets.

they are out of touch like nobody's business. i think you write that some ages ago already, how palpatine basically had to do nothing at all. and it's so true. all he does, it seems, is lend a shoulder and a listening ear and voilà! it's so obvious that the jedi have no understanding of a human being, that their philosophy has bcome so abstract that it must be hard for anakin to work out what 'compassion' actually is.

so, they are being compassionate when they kill others? going to war is compassionate? leaving his mother behind is compassionate? treating him like this is compassionate? not understanding him at all is compassionate? it must give him emotional whiplash.

so, yoda's advice is particularly useless. he doesn't even ask what the problem is because he cannot imagine anything is literal as fatherhood in anakin's future. it's shocking.

guardienne wrote:haha, you know, i spent like a year debating this and it went nowhere because ... the jedi are heroes!!!! and they do nothing wrong.

That's funny because TP actually took a huge risk to demystify Jedi as heroes and show them as entirely fallible and responsible for their demise.

i rolled my eyes almost out of their sockets.

they are out of touch like nobody's business. i think you write that some ages ago already, how palpatine basically had to do nothing at all. and it's so true. all he does, it seems, is lend a shoulder and a listening ear and voilà! it's so obvious that the jedi have no understanding of a human being, that their philosophy has bcome so abstract that it must be hard for anakin to work out what 'compassion' actually is.

Absolutely. Sith really hit the fan when they asked Anakin to spy on Palp. His answer was great. "You are asking me to do something against the Jedi code, against the Republic, against a mentor and a friend, that's what's out of place here." I wish that TP were actually first movies instead of Prequels and that they took bold step in that Palp wasn't the bad guy but that Jedi became bad themselves because of their lust for power and feat to lose it. Anakin was idealist, like Qui Gonn. But he had no one to turn. Everyone, including OB1, was a JC b*tch because sitting at JC was the ultimate power. They all wanted to keep that power including at Anakin's expense. Even OB1 who never figured out that being JC b*tch is why he couldn't help Anakin. Not that he wasn't as good teacher as Yoda who basically lost all Jedi save OB1.


[quote]so, they are being compassionate when they kill others? going to war is compassionate? leaving his mother behind is compassionate? treating him like this is compassionate? not understanding him at all is compassionate? it must give him emotional whiplash.

I was never aboard their system that separates young children from their parents and than tries to repress their emotions. That's child abuse right there. I think that Anakin had good grasp on what compassion is and was totally confused by Jedi inconsistency. Quin Gonn was a true Jedi, not JC Jedi like the lot of them, but true Jedi. he was compassionate to "pitiful lifeforms" and everyone really.

[quote]so, yoda's advice is particularly useless. he doesn't even ask what the problem is because he cannot imagine anything is literal as fatherhood in anakin's future. it's shocking.

Totally.

@guardienne

@vaderito i think that whole recruiting very young children thing stinks to the high heavens. i can't remember how they rationalise this but to me it's the same as the FO does it. it doesn't matter for what purpose they do this, it's a horrible thing and it means you are creating clones of a different kind. so, them being opposed to a clone army ... er, you guys?

and yes to the power the council holds and how they approach their own power as well. there is zero reflection on their motives that i know of, all they do is hold on to it with any means possible. very corrupted.

they are also compromising themselves by aligning themselves so firmly with the government and going to war for them. that's when they really lose my sympathy. you guys want to connect with the force but killing some people for political purposes is acceptable? noho.

so, palpatine had an easy ride and he knew it.

and i agree anakin understood what compassion is. which is why their philospohy and actions are confusing. i feel that at the beginning of ROTS he's accepted his role as a warrior (again, training young children to use weapons is utterly unethical) and he's comfortable working with obi-wan and in a practical way this makes sense. he always struck me as a simple guy. he wants to be safe somewhere, for his wife to be safe, i don't think he is intrinsically interested in politics, he's interested in the empire because it makes things easier.

i like your idea to start with anakin in qui-gon's place. i guess he would have been much older and it wouldn't have 'rhymed' with the little child thing etc etc but it's an interesting take. i actually like how lucas chooses to tell it, i just don't think his execution is amazing. even when it's highly dramatic i think he doesn't cut very close to the bone.

oh, and re the jedi being obviously compromised. for SOME people this is still disputable. which says it all really. it all depends on how you see your heroes. for some people they will always be good by default. i remember thinking that it must be difficult to them to reconcile their idea of the jedi with the reality. which is the same for anakin really, he's in awe of being a jedi as well isn't he initially.

Excellent points @guardienne especially that recruiting young kids smacks of FO. Good/bad is only a POV. We are told that Jedi are good so nobody is disturbed that they take kids from their parents and brainwash them to Jedi dogma. Likewise, we are told that FO is bad so we are disturbed that FO does the same only brainwash them to FO dogma. But there's no difference except in POV.

Aligning themselves with the government is another one. That's taking sides. They should be neutral, guardians of peace. But just look at them. They live in a big condo in the big capital rubbing shoulders with government officials. That's very little "feeling the Force" and lots of political power mongering. When Luke trained in swamps of Dagobar, he connected with the Force. There's mysticism in that place. There's none in condo city Coruscant. They forgot to be in touch with the Force which is to say with human nature and every living being's nature and only cared about power center. I mean, for 1000 years of their "peace keeping" they still couldn't free Tatooine slaves. Because they simply didn't care. Not in their interest zone, nothing to gain. Just like Republic government felt about it.

oh god @vaderito don't get me started...

you are so right about the disconnect with regards to mysticism as well. i remember being struck by how luke says on arrival on dagobah 'like something out of a dream' which meant to me that he was going into his subconscious to a degree, to a place that wasn't rational which then reoccurs as a motif in the cave.

i think the films make that very clear, how disconnected they are spiritually.

the palace visually also is this fortress, it doesn't look like a welcoming place. it doesn't look open and they themelves are not engaging with the people they've sworn to protect.

i found the prequels wonderfully rich in imagery and ideas for how close-mindedness and disconnectedness contribute to the order's fall.

i think one of the themes of star wars that is being picked up again in TFA is to do with recruitment of children into conflict. all these children, anakin and padme, their children, ben, rey, finn - they are all being drawn into this never-ending war without their consent. they are literally recruited away from their families and taught how to kill.

i really hope i got this right because i think the way TFA is weighted emotionally, with the immaturity in the three leads emphasised, i think they are drawing on this majorly. and i think this is where the story is going. i think two generations have not been able to make any lasting peace, so i can't listen to them anymore going on about how rey needs to build up a jedi order and so on because... why??

it's perpetuating something, like a transferred trauma that isn't hers.

if they have any sense, they should be able to address this imbalance and allow these children to make peace and find their own path.

but oh well. it's called star wars.

but i feel very strongly that this trilogy could spell a kind of uneasy end to the b&w conflict and actually address the failure to secure peace.

and i guess ben is in the middle of all this because he is literally the conflict personified and all that. so if he can't reconcile it, there's no metaphorical hope for anyone else.

@guardienne That's the thing. The series is called Star Wars so there must be a war. There won't be peace or it'll be easily broken.

And you are so right about unwelcoming fortress that serves as a Jedi Temple. Disconnection with people and spirituality right there.

guardienne wrote:haha, you know, i spent like a year debating this and it went nowhere because ... the jedi are heroes!!!! and they do nothing wrong.

i rolled my eyes almost out of their sockets.

they are out of touch like nobody's business. i think you write that some ages ago already, how palpatine basically had to do nothing at all. and it's so true. all he does, it seems, is lend a shoulder and a listening ear and voilà! it's so obvious that the jedi have no understanding of a human being, that their philosophy has bcome so abstract that it must be hard for anakin to work out what 'compassion' actually is.

so, they are being compassionate when they kill others? going to war is compassionate? leaving his mother behind is compassionate? treating him like this is compassionate? not understanding him at all is compassionate? it must give him emotional whiplash.

so, yoda's advice is particularly useless. he doesn't even ask what the problem is because he cannot imagine anything is literal as fatherhood in anakin's future. it's shocking.

Someone should have given the jedi council a good smack on their collective heads for all their dumb decisions.....

1. Take the bombing of the jedi temple at Coruscant (Canon Clone Wars TV series).....they thought it was Ahsoka....chased her, arrested and humiliated her at the trial....and when Anakin revealed it was not Ahsoka but Bariss who did the bombing.......ooops....this was the will of the force.....Ahsoka, that was a test....now you can re-join the order and become a knight.... No wonder she snubbed them and walked away....another event that led Anakin Skywalker to becoming Vader.

2. Take the Obiwan and Anakin comic (canon).....Palpatine asks the jedi masters to allow him to take Anakin (as a young boy) out for the night into town.....no problem....please take him out....enjoy yourselves.

3. Take Dark Disciple (canon).....Mace Windu and the jedi council decide- Dooku must be killed and we must send a jedi to do it....Obi-wan pipes in- let us send my childhood buddy Quinlan Vos....and that is not all....Obi-wan adds - let us tell Vos to flirt (yes, I am not joking...he did say this) with Asajj Ventress and make her help with the assassination (forgetting that she has struggled to leave the dark side behind her and is trying to lead an honest life)... when the plan initially fails......ooh, Vos has gone to the dark side....let us execute him...forget we came up with this whole scheme in the first place.....

The Jedi Council were just so far up their respective bottoms that they were blind and smug.

They claimed that they knew what was best - even if there was conflicting evidence, and just went along and did what they wanted forgetting about the consequences and ramifications.

This is the only time I've not actually liked as Sam Jackson performance because Mace Windu was the smuggest of them all and I've only ever seen the movies - not read or seen any of the EU material.

You make so many great points,guys.I don't know if GL realised he was how he was protraying the Jedi in the most unlikeable way but he did.
Obi Wan's attitude on Mustafar didn't make much sense to me.First he was against fighting Anakin but by the time he went there he was ready to kill him.No interest in knwoing what led him to fall to the DS?No trying to convince him to stop waht he's doing for Padme and his child's sake?WTH?Actually talking to Anakin instead of being all self rightious could have helped him.

Rogue Rey wrote:The Jedi Council were just so far up their respective bottoms that they were blind and smug.

They claimed that they knew what was best - even if there was conflicting evidence, and just went along and did what they wanted forgetting about the consequences and ramifications.

This is the only time I've not actually liked as Sam Jackson performance because Mace Windu was the smuggest of them all and I've only ever seen the movies - not read or seen any of the EU material.

@Rogue Rey

The stuff I mentioned isn't EU...it is part of canon....and Windu is even more obnoxious in those books and comics....

Seriously even Obi Wan knew Anakin was loyal to people not princiaples yet he was quick to write him off as some power hungry monster:
"For Anakin, there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I've ever met—loyal beyond reason; in fact […] abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him… because he knows I would do the same for him."
(From RTS novelazation)

CienaRee wrote:You make so many great points,guys.I don't know if GL realised he was how he was protraying the Jedi in the most unlikeable way but he did.
Obi Wan's attitude on Mustafar didn't make much sense to me.First he was against fighting Anakin but by the time he went there he was ready to kill him.No interest in knwoing what led him to fall to the DS?No trying to convince him to stop waht he's doing for Padme and his child's sake?WTH?Actually talking to Anakin instead of being all self rightious could have helped him.

@CienaRee

Now that you mention it, I wonder myself. he wanted to show their order in decline/last legs but he really made everyone so off-putting that Order 66 felt like "Good riddance". To me anyway.

@panki

The stuff I mentioned isn't EU...it is part of canon....and Windu is even more obnoxious in those books and comics.... Mad

Oh, Gosh, is that even humanly possible?  

Great examples from canon tie-ins. What bunch of deluded d***heads.

panki wrote:

Rogue Rey wrote:The Jedi Council were just so far up their respective bottoms that they were blind and smug.

They claimed that they knew what was best - even if there was conflicting evidence, and just went along and did what they wanted forgetting about the consequences and ramifications.

This is the only time I've not actually liked as Sam Jackson performance because Mace Windu was the smuggest of them all and I've only ever seen the movies - not read or seen any of the EU material.

@Rogue Rey

The stuff I mentioned isn't EU...it is part of canon....and Windu is even more obnoxious in those books and comics....

@panki

More obnoxious?? Wow.

I've never seen anything besides the actual films and he was bad enough in those.