Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

It seems more and more to me that the future is going to be a compromise between the two. At some point they will stand together....but at what personal cost? Kylo is already starting to realise that his new position is not going to bring him any real joy. It reminds me of the scene in the first IronMan film, when Yinsen tells Tony: "You have everything and nothing."    But...what will Rey have to give up?

HE SAW HER FUTURE! I WAS RIGHT OMG!

I think at one point they will defy their sides and choose to stand together. Maybe a "us against the world" situation.

Oh, who would have thought that instead of being Eviler Than Ever, Kylo feels miserable after his utter failure as Supreme Leader and being told to sleep on the couch.

rawpowah wrote:HE SAW HER FUTURE! I WAS RIGHT OMG!

I think at one point they will defy their sides and choose to stand together. Maybe a "us against the world" situation.

@rawpowah

I'm glad and hope that is really canon.

Ben assuming Rey would stand by him simply because he saw in her past that her parents were dead and abandoned her was really arrogant and makes him look like a jerk.
I rather believe he saw some version of the future where they're together and that's why he was so sure she would join him in that moment.

The image of them back to back, when they fought the Praetorians, is a foreshadowing, I think.

motherofpearl1 wrote:The image of them back to back, when they fought the Praetorians, is a foreshadowing, I think.

@motherofpearl1

Might be hinting more to something like the Prime Jedi there, visually. In "Last Shot", which I will be requesting for my birthday to read, mentions that "Han had no idea how a 2-year old could have such ancient eyes. It was as if Ben was waiting around for a millennium to show up at just this moment in history."

As others have pointed out The Chosen One may very well be not one Jedi but two. I have to say here..although I'm an avid reader and very much enjoy the tie in novels, I do think it's a bit unfair that Disney or Lucasfilm are only releasing certain information in the books....anyone who doesn't want to read them will miss out on something that could be essential to getting into the character's heads, so to speak. It would be a good idea to release graphic novel versions of the books - a lot of people I know enjoy comics more than books.

Night Huntress wrote:

rawpowah wrote:HE SAW HER FUTURE! I WAS RIGHT OMG!

I think at one point they will defy their sides and choose to stand together. Maybe a "us against the world" situation.

@rawpowah

I'm glad and hope that is really canon.

Ben assuming Rey would stand by him simply because he saw in her past that her parents were dead and abandoned her was really arrogant and makes him look like a jerk.
I rather believe he saw some version of the future where they're together and that's why he was so sure she would join him in that moment.

@Night Huntress

Of course he saw the future!!! You could plainly see the whole world changed for both of them at that moment. He had hope, he was near tears, he waited for her in that deleted scene. That wasn't all because he saw her deadbeat parents. LF is giving out information in little pieces here and there, exactly like they want to.

Piper Maru wrote:Oh, who would have thought that instead of being Eviler Than Ever, Kylo feels miserable after his utter failure as Supreme Leader and being told to sleep on the couch.

@Piper Maru

I only wish that Lucasfilm would hire you to write their databank updates so that your comment about the film ending with Kylo realizing that between losing his virginity and ruling the galaxy, he'd made the wrong choice would be canon.

Sooooooo much juicy stuff! Where to start?!
I feel like it’s going to take me a year to fully grasp and play with all that’s in these new databank updates. Cool! There is so much content across characters that it is all very interwoven.
@Riri –I don’t know if it was changed to reflect the IX script. It’s possible but I’m not sure that we could find out the answer to this one.
Yes thanks to this new info I’ve revisited my thoughts on the visions and what they saw.

@cherrylipstick – very interesting indeed!! About the interrogation scene and how much Kylo/Ben saw in Rey’s mind then? I’m not sure.. I might come back to that..
Yes – did they each see a different vision or the same in TLJ? or maybe there is a third option - and the visions were jumbles of different content - some aspects were shared and some that were not.
I really hope we are given a clear answer on this in IX. There are lots of things I suspect we won’t be given a clear answer on – but what exactly the visions were and how they will end up being together as the visions showed makes sense to be revealed to tell the story.. but I’m prepared to never find out. Lol.

@motherofpearl1 – I agree! They will stand together!! I see it as a leap of faith – that this relationship is the will of the force, (not just what each of them personally desires also).. but I think this is where GL’s focus on the selfish vs the selfless is going to come in – with how they can be together..  but that is maybe a topic for another day.. lol.. What will Rey give up? You’ve sparked my thinking about this.. I'll try and get over to the rey thread when I can and avoid taking over this thread with it. I’ll tag you in case you’re interested in sharing your ideas!

Night Huntress wrote:

rawpowah wrote:HE SAW HER FUTURE! I WAS RIGHT OMG!
I think at one point they will defy their sides and choose to stand together. Maybe a "us against the world" situation.

@rawpowah

I'm glad and hope that is really canon.

Ben assuming Rey would stand by him simply because he saw in her past that her parents were dead and abandoned her was really arrogant and makes him look like a jerk.
I rather believe he saw some version of the future where they're together and that's why he was so sure she would join him in that moment.

@Night Huntress
I didn’t think it made Ben look arrogant, probably because I figured he understood that the force had connected them and it was a highly significant relationship for this reason alone.
However, if anything makes Ben seem less arrogant then I’m all for it tee hee..
Starwars.com is considered canon. The only way this can be altered is if it is changed by events in the IX I think.

@SoloSideCousin – LOL I wasn’t thinking of course he saw the future – to be honest I'm still trying to get my head around this one lol!  
I put Kylo/Ben's reaction down to the connection and belonging he felt in that moment, and what he received back from her.. but heck – I can totally see how seeing his future with Rey could work...  

I am thinking in IX we may still never find out exactly what each character knew at which point -e.g. how much did Kylo/Ben see in the interrogation? Because what we’ve heard since implies the knowledge of who Rey’s parents are is revealed in the hut.. but.. we can’t be sure! Personally, I’d really like to know. But.. objectively – I can see that the story can be told without these kinds of specifics being nailed down – and SW does like to keep things vague sometimes..

I’ve loved reading all the comments on the visions – I confess the databank entry has thrown me for a bit of a loop. So I’m going to explore this a little here and I’d love to hear your thoughts if you’d like to share!
I guess what Kylo/Ben saw in the hut is one of those SW moments where it is true from a certain point of view – and it’s not till later that we find out more of the information. From what Kylo/Ben said in the movie – he said he saw her parents and because of that he knew she would be the one to turn. He didn’t say anything about having seen her future, but I guess that doesn’t rule it out. Lol. When I started reading your comments and databank I thought: oh yeah! cool! he saw her future too!!!  But… then the novelisation gave me pause.. I would love to hear what you think!

The databank covers the visions in the Kylo and Rey bios.. I’ll quote the relevant bits:  
In Kylo’s bio: “She (Rey) insisted she’d seen his future, and when the time came he’d stand with her. But Kylo had seen the future too, and was certain Rey would join him. And he’d seen something else when their minds met: the identity of Rey’s parents.”
In Rey’s bio: “In that moment of connection with Kylo, Rey said, she had seen his future. She told Luke that if she went to him, the former Ben Solo would turn away from the dark side.”
& “Rey arrived aboard the Supremacy as a prisoner of the First Order. She tried to convince Kylo to turn, but he said he’d also seen something during their connection: when the time came, she would join him.”…
“Kylo did turn, using Luke’s lightsabre to cleave Snoke in two. But rather than save the resistance, he asked Rey to join him so they could rule together. He told Rey he’d seen the truth about her parents: they were nobodies, junk dealers who’d abandoned her. “

I'm not sure if this is saying Kylo saw Rey’s future.. Rey saw Kylo’s future. Kylo saw ‘the future’ and the identity of Rey’s parents. Kylo saw ‘the future’ not ‘Rey’s future or his future or their future’ – this may be SW trying to keep things a little ambiguous.. what 'future' did Kylo/Ben see??!!
Add to this what the novelisation says and – I’m wondering how to make sense of all this:
In the novelisation, in the turbolift Kylo says to Rey “You’re wrong,” Kylo said. “When we touched I saw something, too. Not your future—your past. And because of what I saw, I know that when the moment comes, you’ll be the one to turn. You’ll stand with me. Rey, I saw who your parents are.”

So Kylo saw 'the future' and not 'Rey's future'. Hmm! What the??
All this put together – It’s not clear to me that Kylo/Ben saw the future with Rey in his visions.. How could he be so sure she would join him if he hadn’t seen Rey’s future or their future?
I guess Kylo/Ben didn’t need to see a future with Rey in his vision, because he already sees a future with her anyway, because of their connection in the force. Also, Rey saw in her vision her future was with him – and I think he doesn’t discount her vision, he just thinks she’s misinterpreting what side they are on together in her vision. My guess is Rey couldn’t tell what side the future vision of them had them on – because they were not on a side at all, they were balanced.

Whether Kylo/Ben saw Rey’s future or not, now we are learning more about these visions, one thing I’m really happy about is that there is no hint that the visions originated with Snoke. I think there was a question mark about that - it was unlikely but possible  that what they saw was a manipulation from Snoke.. however given all we know at this point I think this is no longer an option. It seems Snoke – strengthened and altered their existing connection by bridging their minds – and then left them to do what they do (Snoke had ‘known Kylo wouldn’t be able to hide his conflict from Rey and that Rey would take the bait’ – the kylo gallery says. Snoke didn't need to intervene further to achieve his goal of getting Rey to come to him so he could get Luke's location.)

Thinking about how these visions work and how dangerous they are is really interesting.. The Snoke main page says “But Snoke’s visions and force senses had betrayed him. The former Ben Solo ignited Luke Skywalker’s lightsabre, cleaving his master in two and ending Snoke’s life." So there's this idea that visions and force sense can get you into trouble...
Snoke’s POV in the novelisation says some really interesting things about visions.. he was very wise in many ways, even if he was evil lol. It's really interesting to apply his insights on visions to what transpires between Rey and Kylo/Ben –  here I'll share it ( the start of chapter 25):
"Interpreting visions of the future was a dangerous game. Whether Jedi, Sith, or some other sect less celebrated by history, all those who used the Force to explore possible time lines kept that uppermost in their minds. Those who didn’t died regretting that they hadn’t.
Snoke had learned that lesson many years ago, when he was young and the galaxy was very different. These days, what struck him was how much visions of the future left out.
For example, who would have guessed that the girl Rey would be so slim and fragile-looking? She looked lost in the throne room, dwarfed by both her surroundings and the galaxy-shaking events for which she was the unlikely and unwitting fulcrum.
But Snoke knew appearances were often deceiving—sometimes fatally so. Underestimating Rey had nearly cost Kylo Ren his life, after all. Snoke knew better. For he had his own legions of uncounted dead, their ranks filled by those who had underestimated him."
So much delicious Snoke irony in these thoughts.. Jason Fry did this soooo well!!! I find the bolded in this text so interesting - what was left out of Rey and Kylo/Ben's visions? lol.

I think it’s great that Rey and Kylo/Ben somehow haven’t quite figured out what the visions mean or how it’s going to work out.. but it didn’t lead to their downfall because the force is still at work here in this situation. I love that the visions were the cosmic force communicating to Rey and Kylo about their shared future.. and that same will of the cosmic force is still at work in this story as we head into IX. [The cosmic force seems to think Rey does have a place in this story Kylo Ren. Take that. Haaaa] I eat up this 'Rey and Kylo/Ben are destined to be together' stuff!
Thoughts anyone?

Hello, I just read part 2 of 6 of the last jedi comic adaptation and wanted to share something I came across that I thought was interesting for Kylo/Ben.
I may be mistaken here but I think this is new content - I've not seen it before..
This is Leia and Ben sensing each other as he approaches her ship to fire on it.
Here:




For me, this little exchange is really interesting!
I've wondered how Kylo/Ben would refer to his mother - given that he calls his father 'Han Solo' in TFA and TLJ.
In the expanded novelisation, Kylo/Ben's POV calls her 'Leia Organa' and his internal dialogue of talking to his mother has him call her 'mother' so there is that one other reference that I've come across where he calls her 'mother'. Still I enjoy seeing him refer to her as 'mother' here in the comic.  
Maybe there are other reference to this in TFA novelisation which I don't have..

In TFA - we never see Leia refer to Kylo/Ben by either name - he is only referred to as 'our son' or 'him'. In TLJ we only see her refer to him as 'my son'. So I was always curious to see which name she would call him by. We would guess 'Ben' as Han calls him Ben, and Luke does too.. But I'm very glad to see it confirmed here for the first time that I can find, that Leia still calls him 'Ben' -
Leia and Kylo/Ben's connection when he is considering shooting her in the novelisation doesn't give Leia's POV..
Given Carrie's passing and what this could mean for IX, I'm glad we at least got this in a comic. it's not ideal, but I'll take it over nothing...
So touching. I look forward to seeing how this mother and son relationship is healed and resolved in IX. (I believe it is at the crux of Kylo/Ben's redemption). Okay, I think I'll go have a good cry now!

I always imagined Kylo would still refer to Leia as “mother” in his mind. It’s interesting because ithe comic gives a little of their inner thoughts as it verbalizes what was going through their minds during that scene, which was that they sensed each other.

I really wish the artwork was better...

hi guys, I'm finally getting around to sharing a Kylo/Ben snippet from TLJ comic (issue 1 of 6) to share... just umm try to ignore the ugly faces lol!!
I think this is interesting as it explictly refers to Snoke reading Kylo's thoughts- when he killed Han. IMHO Snoke's narration of Kylo's thoughts put to rest any suggestions that Kylo Ren was calculating and playing Han Solo like a fiddle.. he was indeed considering leaving with his dad  


[lol 'junkyard rat']

Snoke sounds like one of those Reddit fanboys who calls Rey a Mary Sue

I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion, but Kylo was a lot hotter in his immediate unmasking moment in TLJ vs TFA for me. I almost gasped out loud the first time I saw that moment. Which is pretty ironic considering the two contrasting states. Devastated, broken, black tape scarred Kylo's sex appeal is off the charts. His lips were deliberately made to look a lot more pink and fuller too. I remember Rian liked a tweet where a woman thanked him for all the close ups of Adam Driver's lips LOL. Basically, TFA is pretty and cute, TLJ is grown up and hot. I don't blame Rey at aaaaaaalllllll. She was shooketh and a goner in this moment



I love that the ST prioritises the female gaze and that the heroine has agency, desires/lusts after the dangerous, damaged, brooding 'bad boy' option and actually acts upon it without being punished by the narrative, contrary to what the antis think. She just has to be patient and wait and she'll get what she wants in the end (with the necessary character development from her love interest).

@Kylo Rey We'll have to see what JJ does with him in IX because Kylo's unmasking did come with an ungodly amount of hairspray. What hair would be fitting for a Dark Prince/Supreme Leader who's trying to pretend he didn't get dumped by the Scavenger Girl?

Though I've always been for Team Floof, it really is like apples and oranges, it's two completely different approaches for different purposes, and they both work. I don't expect Kylo in IX to look as incredibly young or photo shoot-ish as he did in TFA, but also not likely as much of a (really good-looking) mess as he was in TLJ. JJ does has a long history of prettifying his male actors.

Kylo Rey wrote:I don't know if this is an unpopular opinion, but Kylo was a lot hotter in his immediate unmasking moment in TLJ vs TFA for me. I almost gasped out loud the first time I saw that moment. Which is pretty ironic considering the two contrasting states. Devastated, broken, black tape scarred Kylo's sex appeal is off the charts. His lips were deliberately made to look a lot more pink and fuller too. I remember Rian liked a tweet where a woman thanked him for all the close ups of Adam Driver's lips LOL. Basically, TFA is pretty and cute, TLJ is grown up and hot. I don't blame Rey at aaaaaaalllllll. She was shooketh and a goner in this moment



I love that the ST prioritises the female gaze and that the heroine has agency, desires/lusts after the dangerous, damaged, brooding 'bad boy' option and actually acts upon it without being punished by the narrative, contrary to what the antis think. She just has to be patient and wait and she'll get what she wants in the end (with the necessary character development from her love interest).

@Kylo Rey

I am with you on this one! Also in TLJ after unmasking he actually looked like he had been wearing a mask before and it perfectly suited the unmasking and I agree about the hotness! In TFA he looked so overdone, but mostly like a prince frozen in a glass castle which clashed with the mask.  Like he was in a dream, but in TLJ he looked aweken from a nightmare.
I love that scene you linked in the gif because there is semething so intimate when he remembers exactly what look Rey had at the forest, ah.

@snufkin @californiagirl I actually prefer Kylo's hair in TFA, but I will agree that the hairspray was overdone at first. It was just his overall look that I preferred in TLJ. For IX, I'm not sure what they'll do. I think his hair might be a mixture of both looks, so probably curled again but not overly so - maybe how his hair looked on the bridge scene with Han. Rey and Kylo are now in the 'adult' stage of their arcs, so outfits may be more mature. Rey doesn't really have a need for the rags she wears anymore, especially with a time jump. In Kylo's case, I have a feeling they are really going to try to heighten his appeal even more with his outfit. He is a leader and Emperor of a Galaxy now so something more flashy/less plain than his TLJ costume, but in a tasteful way. Maybe up the regal vibes and play into his royal lineage through his mother and grandmother?

Symbolism is also coded pretty heavily into SW clothing and it gave us a lot of clues for arcs and trajectories for TLJ. They obviously put a lot of thought and work into Rey and Kylo's costumes in particular. For Rey I think she may follow the classic Anakin and Luke look and adopt something even darker or black for her third movie. For Kylo, there may even be a splash of white on his clothing, like the white flap on Luke's outfit in ROTJ, or that might be too on the nose. It is interesting though that Kylo's tunic in TLJ has gold threaded into it, so his costume is not entirely black anymore which is already deviating from his all black DS ensemble in TFA. Very important detail I feel, and maybe something Kaplan wants to continue for IX.

@Kylo Rey I think both hairs are fine between the two films. If anything, my first viewing of TFA I was happily zoned out with low expectations and long ago checked out of the fandom. The scenes with taking off the mask and then the reveal of his name are when I was like "F*ck wait, they're actually doing something here other than cashing in on nostalgia" and got sucked back in. But it's a fun question isn't it, what options are there for a Byronic hairstyle in IX to show a character's rise in power as part of cycling through that trope (and despite what others argue, being the heroine's antagonistic love interest)?

Also LMAO the close up of him when he says "you...a scavenger" because I've had hair stylists do that to my hair (it's wavy/curly) and from personal experience spotted that his brows were groomed. It's too bad the "Art of..." books don't get into the costumes and hair/makeup because he was obviously styled for a very specific look that isn't his real-life appearance. Although it fits considering he's Leia's son and she's always wearing full makeup in scenes like being held prisoner on the Death Star, escaping in the Falcon from Hoth, and on Endor.

@Kylo Rey - wow. I am mesmerised by that gif..
Speaking of Kylo/Ben hair in IX, in that gif it is shorter.. I kinda like that.. actually honestly, I like it all. I can't think clearly looking at that gif!!!


Replying to interesting Kylo/Ben comment that has come up in the Solo thread..

SanghaRen wrote:@DeeBee

You asked if the info that Ben is a collector was from the TFA visual dictionary. I wanted to answer and forgot. I checked the visual dictionary and there is nothing. Also, I was absolutely sure that PH had answered a tweet confirming that Kylo was into artefacts, but I could not find it in my library of tweet screenshots. So I am starting to wonder if some of us did not engage in a group headcanoning based on Vader’s helmet and the fact that he mentions the Empire’s archives in the TFA interrogation scene leading to a sort of SW young and geeky Indiana Jones feeling. But then, we know from the TLJ visual dictionary that Luke roamed the galaxy looking for “every remnant of Jedi lore he could find in an effort to piece together a fragmented past”  and has gathered some Jedi Artefacts and disciples who would become his first true students. And since Ben was off the radar away with Luke during the timeline of Bloodline, one can imagine he helped his uncle in the search. But yeah, I am not sure now if there was not some headcanon influence at work here

@SanghaRen
HI SanghaRen! Oh I know what you mean! I was not involved with SW in the lead up to TFA and for a year after it's release.. so I am not across all the supplementary stuff that came out for that movie like I am with TLJ.. A few months ago I worked through the KOR thread, and found that really, we don't know much for sure about them at all! I was surprised!

Anyway, I think your idea that Kylo/Ben has been a collector is possible. To what extent we don't know, but I agree that it's likely he has been involved with artifacts at various points in his life in various ways.
Here's what I can come up with.. [anyone else able to contribute about this? ]
Ben accompanied his uncle for at least part of his quest for Jedi knowledge (as you say in Bloodline- I've got to read that book!), then he underwent Jedi training- the night Luke enters sleeping Ben's hut to confront him the Jedi relic the compass is on his nightstand.
Then Snoke became Kylo/Ben's master and Snoke is a 'seeker of arcane lore' (databank) - and relishes references to the past in his FO designs etc.
Also, as you say - we have Vader's helmet (TLJ visual dictionary reminds us of it's existence - foreshadowing me thinks. It says the helmet is still on the finaliser.)
Empire archives? good catch SanghaRen!
We also have the design of Kylo/Ben's lightsaber - the databank says "Kylo Ren’s crossguard lightsaber is an ancient design that recalls weapons seen millennia ago during the Great Scourge of Malachor." - this suggests he knows his history no?
Also not sure how, but he recognises the legacy lightsaber the moment he sees it - I am not sure if it's confirmed somewhere but it suggests he had been looking for it maybe.. It at least suggests he had done some research to find out what Anakin and Luke's lightsaber had looked like..

Can anyone shed light on any of this backstory?

Kylo's Topps Trading Card.

I believe this is in the Throne room when Rey took his saber.

Riri wrote:Kylo's Topps Trading Card.

I believe this is in the Throne room when Rey took his saber.

@Riri

When Bae takes your lightsaber and you're not even mad. Beautiful space prince

He's so big

*faints*

I wonder if his scar will heal before IX (at least the part that's not above his eye. Maybe it's the angle or the picture, but the scar looks barely noticeable.

I love this picture! He looks so regal and knightly!

And yeah- didn't seemed to mind Rey using his saber- at all!