Discussion: Finn/FN-2187/John Boyega

Saracene wrote:@Rei of Sunshine Trouble is, there's absolutely *nothing* about Finn's characterisation that's consistent with him being raised by an evil organisation. You could remove his stormtrooper background entirely and instead say that he had a fairly normal childhood/upbringing and no one would have noticed. His past doesn't inform his character at all compared to the way Rey and Kylo's backgrounds inform theirs. The only way it figures in the story is Finn's hostile encounters with Hux and Phasma, and him knowing the operational details of the FO.

I've said this before, but IMO the reason Finn's background is brushed aside is because SW is ultimately too black-and-white and good guys vs bad guys to really deal with this sort of complexity. You'd then have to acknowledge the fact that our good guys are mowing down former stolen children who really had no say in what they became.

@Saracene

I find it odd that this didn't play more of a role because TLJ's Visual Dictionary emphasized that many of the officers are "sub-adults" brainwashed from childhood to be First Order fanatics. So it's not as if this aspect of the First Order was dropped. It just didn't matter in the actual movie.

I also agree that Finn's unique backstory has absolute zero effect on his character and it makes me sad, because they could have done something really interesting with it. I thought that Rian might dive into it more, but nope. Now it feels too late. In personality and motivation, Finn could be any random dude caught up in a fight he didn't want to be in.

Weak. But not as weak as Rose. Their storyline, or at least the amount of time spent on it, was crippling to the rest of the film.

This and Luke are the NO. 1 complaint in the backlash.

Kylo Men wrote:Weak. But not as weak as Rose. Their storyline, or at least the amount of time spent on it, was crippling to the rest of the film.

This and Luke are the NO. 1 complaint in the backlash.

@Kylo Men

I sadly agree. As much as I love Finn and Rose's characters, the whole Canto Bight plot is disappointing. (but Luke's character and arc is perfect for me)

Saracene wrote:@Rei of Sunshine Trouble is, there's absolutely *nothing* about Finn's characterisation that's consistent with him being raised by an evil organisation. You could remove his stormtrooper background entirely and instead say that he had a fairly normal childhood/upbringing and no one would have noticed. His past doesn't inform his character at all compared to the way Rey and Kylo's backgrounds inform theirs. The only way it figures in the story is Finn's hostile encounters with Hux and Phasma, and him knowing the operational details of the FO.

Thing is, yes you can have a character who's raised by an evil regime but doesn't grow up evil, but then you need to show why and what other influences shaped his life. Like, in many dystopian novels I've read the protagonist has some kind of parent/teacher figure who is different to everyone else and their relationship proves to be a big subversive influence. But we're led to believe that until Finn met Poe and Rey, he was just a cog in the machine.

I've said this before, but IMO the reason Finn's background is brushed aside is because SW is ultimately too black-and-white and good guys vs bad guys to really deal with this sort of complexity. You'd then have to acknowledge the fact that our good guys are mowing down former stolen children who really had no say in what they became.

@Saracene

I agree. It's the reason I found this new trilogy really daring, because they are trying something risk with Kylo and Reylo. And, true must be told, in this kind of movie they can't spend much time on all characters. I mean, maybe in a spin-off movie, they could tell Finn's story, but right now, there's no time or place to more complex stories.

I kinda hope that they still can do Finn's Stormtrooper revolt in the last film, and the reason they gave him a blah arc in TLJ is because they didn't want to tackle that particular subplot in the middle movie. It still won't fix Finn's character for me, but it's seriously the only way to make his background relevant in a meaningful way. Especially now that the Resistance is decimated to almost nothing.

Saracene wrote:I kinda hope that they still can do Finn's Stormtrooper revolt in the last film, and the reason they gave him a blah arc in TLJ is because they didn't want to tackle that particular subplot in the middle movie. It still won't fix Finn's character for me, but it's seriously the only way to make his background relevant in a meaningful way. Especially now that the Resistance is decimated to almost nothing.

@Saracene

Still holding on to this.

With the FO's leadership being shaky between Ben and Hux, there's a possibility of an internal split. While yes Hux holds most of the army in his command, it's possible that Benperor will gain support and sympathies of some factions.

The FO could be divided between those who want a violent path to galactic domination and those who want to build and repair as per Ben's beliefs.

Finn could easily be integrated in this story if he finds out that Stormtroopers are learning to stand up against the FO's twisted ideals.

It's even possible that he and Poe might have some disagreements regarding helping the other troopers.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

Saracene wrote:I kinda hope that they still can do Finn's Stormtrooper revolt in the last film, and the reason they gave him a blah arc in TLJ is because they didn't want to tackle that particular subplot in the middle movie. It still won't fix Finn's character for me, but it's seriously the only way to make his background relevant in a meaningful way. Especially now that the Resistance is decimated to almost nothing.

@Saracene

Still holding on to this.

With the FO's leadership being shaky between Ben and Hux, there's a possibility of an internal split. While yes Hux holds most of the army in his command, it's possible that Benperor will gain support and sympathies of some factions.

The FO could be divided between those who want a violent path to galactic domination and those who want to build and repair as per Ben's beliefs.

Finn could easily be integrated in this story if he finds out that Stormtroopers are learning to stand up against the FO's twisted ideals.

It's even possible that he and Poe might have some disagreements regarding helping the other troopers.

@Rei of Sunshine

Time will tell if it has any significance, but I think it was interesting that the scene where Finn tried to get a small group of stormtroopers to join him in rebelling was cut and will show up in the Blu-Ray deleted scenes.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

Saracene wrote:I kinda hope that they still can do Finn's Stormtrooper revolt in the last film, and the reason they gave him a blah arc in TLJ is because they didn't want to tackle that particular subplot in the middle movie. It still won't fix Finn's character for me, but it's seriously the only way to make his background relevant in a meaningful way. Especially now that the Resistance is decimated to almost nothing.

@Saracene

Still holding on to this.

With the FO's leadership being shaky between Ben and Hux, there's a possibility of an internal split. While yes Hux holds most of the army in his command, it's possible that Benperor will gain support and sympathies of some factions.

The FO could be divided between those who want a violent path to galactic domination and those who want to build and repair as per Ben's beliefs.

Finn could easily be integrated in this story if he finds out that Stormtroopers are learning to stand up against the FO's twisted ideals.

It's even possible that he and Poe might have some disagreements regarding helping the other troopers.

@Rei of Sunshine

Time will tell if it has any significance, but I think it was interesting that the scene where Finn tried to get a small group of stormtroopers to join him in rebelling was cut and will show up in the Blu-Ray deleted scenes.

@ISeeAnIsland

they probably didn't want that storyline to end up as one of the hero's failures in TLJ. Maybe they plan to reuse it and strengthen it for Ep 9. Hopefully

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

Saracene wrote:I kinda hope that they still can do Finn's Stormtrooper revolt in the last film, and the reason they gave him a blah arc in TLJ is because they didn't want to tackle that particular subplot in the middle movie. It still won't fix Finn's character for me, but it's seriously the only way to make his background relevant in a meaningful way. Especially now that the Resistance is decimated to almost nothing.

@Saracene

Still holding on to this.

With the FO's leadership being shaky between Ben and Hux, there's a possibility of an internal split. While yes Hux holds most of the army in his command, it's possible that Benperor will gain support and sympathies of some factions.

The FO could be divided between those who want a violent path to galactic domination and those who want to build and repair as per Ben's beliefs.

Finn could easily be integrated in this story if he finds out that Stormtroopers are learning to stand up against the FO's twisted ideals.

It's even possible that he and Poe might have some disagreements regarding helping the other troopers.

@Rei of Sunshine

I can see that happening. Especially with Poe being portrayed in an extreme way (the end justifie the means). No wonder some Resistance people were running away.

John about Finn at 24:34 mark. John is fully aware how inconsistent Finn’s characterisation is. It’s interesting to hear his thoughts about it.
He confirms that Rey is his only motivation – until he meets Rose!

I thought Finn's ark wasn't really convincing in TLJ. I didn't mind Canto Bight - maybe it could have been shorter though. He has a charm, but his character lacks some kind of interesting spark that could be only about him. And if they don't use his Stormtrooper past then there isn't a lot to work with.
With John saying that his only motivation is Rey then Rose, I imagine what happened if Daisy said that Rey's only motivation is Luke then Ben. Something just sounds a bit wrong with the fact that its all it is about him. Looks like John wanted him to be force sensitive, but IMO even without it, there could be a more challenging story.

@Zio Ren - I agree Finn’s story arc got overshadowed.
I think there are just too many characters in the mix… and while he had a simple arc here, his character took a back seat because other characters were front and centre.. this is noticeable because he was such a big part of TFA!

@Zio Ren & @Rei of Sunshine – Yes!!! – I vote for a stormtrooper rebellion in IX too please!!!

ZioRen wrote:
Something about Finn's ultimate goal being presented as becoming a true Resistance hero feels lame to me. Since Poe already occupies that narrative space.  

@ZioRen

Maybe Poe will die in IX? I’d be totally fine with that!

ZioRen wrote:
I feel like they keep setting up interesting places they could have gone with Finn's arc and then not going there. It's sort of frustrating. I also agree that Rose's "sacrifice" confuses things if Finn's attitude at the start is supposed to be a flaw. So is the message that Finn was wrong to only care about acting to protect Rey, or is that exactly how he's supposed to think and Rose was the one who was wrong and learned otherwise? Because everything he did to further the Resistance's cause was ultimately trying to protect Rey from coming back to a mangled, dangerous mess. So he's fighting to save someone he loves, just like Rose preached should be their aim.

@ZioRen

Regarding the bolded - Interesting thoughts! I’m not sure that Finn started out in a place of only caring about protecting Rey. There is no doubt he cares about Rey and wants to protect her but I think there is much more going on with his character than that- at least at the start.
I think Finn’s motivations and allegiances shift throughout the movie.

Finn wants to find Rey and get far far away.. However, I see his connection with Rey at the start of TLJ as being a selfish one. There is more going on than wanting to protect Rey. (IMHO) I'll share why I see him like this to start with..
It all has to do with the cloaked beacon.
Leia has it on her wrist, and it is the one way Rey is able to reconnect with the Resistance. Rey is relying on that beacon like a thread that ties her to something solid as she goes on her mission to bring back Luke Skywalker. She's gone on this mission because it's what she wants to do, and it's important to her..
Leia explains this plan to Finn and how the beacon works..
So Leia gets sucked out of the bridge into space with that beacon on her wrist - Rey's connection to the resistance, and thus Finn, is drifting off into space at that moment.. but Leia finds the strength to get herself back into the safety of the ship. Part of that act means the connection with Rey and all that goes along with that, is also not lost.

So on the gurney, unconscious Leia drops the beacon on the floor and it's picked up by Finn - Now he can locate Rey, he immediately sets about escaping to go find Rey and get far far away.
Yes Finn cares about Rey and thinks the resistance is doomed for a moment there.. but by severing her ties with the resistance, and escaping with the beacon, he's brushed aside what Rey was trying to do in going to Luke Skywalker - he's brushed aside her mission and her purpose He's not thinking about what Rey wants here.

In this moment, IMHO, I think Finn is selfish, and making a decision on Rey's behalf that isn't his to make.
Rey didn't want to run away from the fight. That is what Finn wanted..
Had he escaped, Finn would have cut off Rey and he would be all she had left..

For me, it is Finn's lowest moment... there are tinges of panic, selfishness, and possessiveness of Rey that I think were pure instinct on his part, and we see him grow beyond this throughout his story.

The moment where Finn hands the Beacon to Poe, to go on his mission to Canto Bight (rather than taking it with him on his mission), is a positive turning point for his character.

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but what do we all see Finn’s journey as being? From TFA to the end of TLJ?

DeeBee wrote:@Zio Ren - I agree Finn’s story arc got overshadowed.
I think there are just too many characters in the mix… and while he had a simple arc here, his character took a back seat because other characters were front and centre.. this is noticeable because he was such a big part of TFA!

@Zio Ren & @Rei of Sunshine – Yes!!! – I vote for a stormtrooper rebellion in IX too please!!!

ZioRen wrote:
Something about Finn's ultimate goal being presented as becoming a true Resistance hero feels lame to me. Since Poe already occupies that narrative space.  

@ZioRen

Maybe Poe will die in IX? I’d be totally fine with that!

ZioRen wrote:
I feel like they keep setting up interesting places they could have gone with Finn's arc and then not going there. It's sort of frustrating. I also agree that Rose's "sacrifice" confuses things if Finn's attitude at the start is supposed to be a flaw. So is the message that Finn was wrong to only care about acting to protect Rey, or is that exactly how he's supposed to think and Rose was the one who was wrong and learned otherwise? Because everything he did to further the Resistance's cause was ultimately trying to protect Rey from coming back to a mangled, dangerous mess. So he's fighting to save someone he loves, just like Rose preached should be their aim.

@ZioRen

Regarding the bolded - Interesting thoughts! I’m not sure that Finn started out in a place of only caring about protecting Rey. There is no doubt he cares about Rey and wants to protect her but I think there is much more going on with his character than that- at least at the start.
I think Finn’s motivations and allegiances shift throughout the movie.

Finn wants to find Rey and get far far away.. However, I see his connection with Rey at the start of TLJ as being a selfish one. There is more going on than wanting to protect Rey. (IMHO) I'll share why I see him like this to start with..
It all has to do with the cloaked beacon.
Leia has it on her wrist, and it is the one way Rey is able to reconnect with the Resistance. Rey is relying on that beacon like a thread that ties her to something solid as she goes on her mission to bring back Luke Skywalker. She's gone on this mission because it's what she wants to do, and it's important to her..
Leia explains this plan to Finn and how the beacon works..
So Leia gets sucked out of the bridge into space with that beacon on her wrist - Rey's connection to the resistance, and thus Finn, is drifting off into space at that moment.. but Leia finds the strength to get herself back into the safety of the ship. Part of that act means the connection with Rey and all that goes along with that, is also not lost.

So on the gurney, unconscious Leia drops the beacon on the floor and it's picked up by Finn - Now he can locate Rey, he immediately sets about escaping to go find Rey and get far far away.
Yes Finn cares about Rey and thinks the resistance is doomed for a moment there.. but by severing her ties with the resistance, and escaping with the beacon, he's brushed aside what Rey was trying to do in going to Luke Skywalker - he's brushed aside her mission and her purpose He's not thinking about what Rey wants here.

In this moment, IMHO, I think Finn is selfish, and making a decision on Rey's behalf that isn't his to make.
Rey didn't want to run away from the fight. That is what Finn wanted..
Had he escaped, Finn would have cut off Rey and he would be all she had left..

For me, it is Finn's lowest moment... there are tinges of panic, selfishness, and possessiveness of Rey that I think were pure instinct on his part, and we see him grow beyond this throughout his story.

The moment where Finn hands the Beacon to Poe, to go on his mission to Canto Bight (rather than taking it with him on his mission), is a positive turning point for his character.

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but what do we all see Finn’s journey as being? From TFA to the end of TLJ?

@DeeBee

I thought that where Finn differed from Rose is that he was on a suicide mission that was probably going to fail, and he was hellbent on it because “We can’t let them win.” It’s all about what they are against. He had just been back to the FO, had battled Phasma, had been SLAPPED by Hux for Heaven’s sake, had accepted publicly his role as Rebel Scum—I think he was so angry that he wasn’t thinking about whether his mission was worth it anymore with so few left. Rose still has that perspective on what they are fighting for, but I think Finn is focused on what they are fighting against at that point.

Lily Snape wrote:

I thought that where Finn differed from Rose is that he was on a suicide mission that was probably going to fail, and he was hellbent on it because “We can’t let them win.” It’s all about what they are against. He had just been back to the FO, had battled Phasma, had been SLAPPED by Hux for Heaven’s sake, had accepted publicly his role as Rebel Scum—I think he was so angry that he wasn’t thinking about whether his mission was worth it anymore with so few left. Rose still has that perspective on what they are fighting for, but I think Finn is focused on what they are fighting against at that point.

@Lily Snape
Interesting comparison of Finn and Rose.

interesting to explore why Finn felt he needed to give his life to not let them win?
It seemed to me when he made that decision his death would not have prevented the FO from breaking into the keep..
He was angry and wasn't thinking? Yes maybe. Or maybe he had confused or wrong thinking?
This might sound strange lol. but between Finn deciding I want to fly into that thing and die and Rose stopping saving him, I felt from Finn determination, but also peace. Acceptance that this is how it will end... Did anyone else?
Maybe I'm strange, and misread it. Quite possible

I don't have any set ideas.. just playing around with thoughts..
It could be that when Finn decided to sacrifice his life, in that moment he felt he would finally achieve some peace. Not saying he is right, but it was a suicide mission he had chosen to take on - it didn't seem to me that his death would achieve much for the resistance over all.. then, Rose 'saved' him.
What were Finn's motivations for this?
He wants to stick it to the FO for sure.. lol.. but I wonder if there is some attempt at penitence here for Finn, after all his mission had cost many lives and been unsuccessful..
Maybe he needed Rose to save him from that thinking, and give him something to fight for (those you love).
In the MF at the end, tucking the blanket in around Rose, he seems very grateful that she saved him from making a big mistake.. and he certainly seems to be open to exploring just what he could be fighting for

I genuinely liked Finn the person more in The Last Jedi. He wasn't as intense and much more himself instead of anxious all the time. I think Rose helped him grow. She was such a fun character too. It'll be interesting where they take her in Episode IX. I think Finn will rally the stormtroopers but, I'm not sure where Rose comes into this. I suppose her hating the First Order, which could create a bit of tension for them.

BB-Rey wrote:I genuinely liked Finn the person more in The Last Jedi. He wasn't as intense and much more himself instead of anxious all the time. I think Rose helped him grow. She was such a fun character too. It'll be interesting where they take her in Episode IX. I think Finn will rally the stormtroopers but, I'm not sure where Rose comes into this. I suppose her hating the First Order, which could create a bit of tension for them.

@BB-Rey

I think it makes her even more crazy about him.
She knows all about 'The Finn' being a former stormtrooper and turning on them and joining the resistance. I think this is part of the attraction
A traitor of the first order is exactly the kinda guy she would be into

@DeeBee

This is true! I didn't even think of that moment. I'm not sure then. I just hope they find a great role for her and she doesn't become sidelined like Padme in ROTS!

I came here to say that I hope Finn gets an interesting and complete arc in IX. I wonder if we have discussed him in terms of him finding his own identity. In TFA, he renounced his own (or lack thereof) identity and gained a new name. For TLJ, he eventually embraced his new role of being a rebel scum and identifying himself as part of the Resistance. I do feel that there hasn't been much of him struggling to come to terms with himself as an individual, something that should be a part of letting go of your old 'child-soldier, numbered' self. His struggle for much of TLJ was in regards to war and fighting for something. 

In my mind, I always end up comparing Finn to Jean Valjean in Les Miserables, especially in terms of coming to terms with being defined by a number (as Prisoner 24601). Valjean's relationship to Javert is even similar to Finn and Phasma's, to be honest. I feel that by the end of the ST, for a satisfying storyline, Finn should eventually embrace who he is as an ex-Stormtrooper without wholly disregarding it. I just hope that the writers do him justice, because it is such an interesting plot to see behind the mask of a Stormtrooper, something we've known for so long but have never explored (except for the clones, but oh well).

On my last viewing of TLJ, I paid the most attention to Finn.  I had recently listened to the Scavenger's Hoard podcast on Finn & Rose, and they discussed how "undignified" many of his early scenes are.  I thought about this while watching and noticed that he always seemed "out of his element" except when he is back in the belly of the beast on the FO ship.  Boyega plays even the comedic parts of the role mostly serious, so I took his clumsiness and confusion as coming from his utter lack of experience with anything outside of the FO. He falls off of the bed. He is awed and bewildered on Canto Bight. During the run on Crait, he is the only one that doesn't know about dropping the rudder-thing on the speeder. However, when he is on the Supremacy, his demeanor is totally different.  He is confident, determined, and aggressive.  He knows this world.  Actually, it's pretty much the only world he has known before a few days ago.

This realization helped me see Finn's character more sympathetically than pitying. He's still adjusting to this huge and sudden change in surroundings. It really is the perfect setup for him to lead a stormtrooper revolt - he is still tied to the FO world even though he left it behind and swore to let the past die not to return.

LadyHa wrote:On my last viewing of TLJ, I paid the most attention to Finn.  I had recently listened to the Scavenger's Hoard podcast on Finn & Rose, and they discussed how "undignified" many of his early scenes are.  I thought about this while watching and noticed that he always seemed "out of his element" except when he is back in the belly of the beast on the FO ship.  Boyega plays even the comedic parts of the role mostly serious, so I took his clumsiness and confusion as coming from his utter lack of experience with anything outside of the FO. He falls off of the bed. He is awed and bewildered on Canto Bight. During the run on Crait, he is the only one that doesn't know about dropping the rudder-thing on the speeder. However, when he is on the Supremacy, his demeanor is totally different.  He is confident, determined, and aggressive.  He knows this world.  Actually, it's pretty much the only world he has known before a few days ago.

This realization helped me see Finn's character more sympathetically than pitying. He's still adjusting to this huge and sudden change in surroundings. It really is the perfect setup for him to lead a stormtrooper revolt - he is still tied to the FO world even though he left it behind and swore to let the past die not to return.

@LadyHa

Love this LadyHa! Great insights!!!! Yeah.. bring on the stormtrooper revolt!!

I apologize if this has been discussed before, but this is a rather long thread...

I was just having a conversation with my husband after having a bit of a revelation about Finn this morning. I realized that I was spending a lot of time thinking about Rey (and Kylo's) story as a metaphor for sexual awakening, etc. etc. but that I never even thought to factor Finn into it until today.

One of the big criticisms of Finn's character (that I share) is that there's really no explanation for *why* he is the way he is; how is it that someone who was kidnapped and raised in the FO to be a mindless drone who follows orders so... different from all of them? It doesn't make sense, and it makes the rest of Finn's story kind of a big question mark. But what does make Finn's story fall into place a bit more is if, like Rey's, we consider his story as one that is a metaphor for sexual "awakening"... except the metaphorical awakening that Finn is experiencing is homosexuality.

When I look at the rest of the story through this lens, suddenly it makes sense. Finn is different from the masses of other Stormtroopers for no particular reason, it's just something he's born with. He's given his first taste of identity - his name - from another man (and, as a sidenote, spends much of the two films wearing another man's jacket), but spends a hell of a long time trying to run away and hide. In this past film there's that whole caged animal/set free metaphor that's almost certainly going to apply to the Stormtroopers and getting them to rebel (at least that's the common prediction), but certainly applies to the above metaphor as well. And then there was the curiously, almost deliberately bloodless kiss from Rose. I noticed the third time around the explosion in the background as it happened (as in, it was staged to be that dramatic, astounding movie kiss and then was curiously NOT). Of course I might be giving Rian and the actors entirely too much credit here, but it all kind of fits with what I speculated above.

As with Reylo, if this was actually a thing, I'm not sure how much of this would simply be subtext and how much would be brought out "into the light" (to clarify: I think Reylo is going to be cemented as romantic, but I'm not sure how far they're going to insinuate it through actual acts/confessions). But I would respect the hell out of it, and I think it would make Finn's character work about a million times more.

**Note: Hopefully this it's clear that this is separate from simple Finn/Poe shipping because they're cute or whatever. However, it would also clarify just why those Finn/Poe interactions (esp. in the first film) ARE seen as a little more interesting than Finn/Rey to many.

I was wondering if Finn went ahead and “sacrificed” himself, would that sacrifice be in vain, for wouldn’t it have caused a massive explosion killing everyone on Crait?

Thoughts?

Good-olio Raeh wrote: I was wondering if Finn went ahead and “sacrificed” himself, would that sacrifice be in vain, for wouldn’t it have caused a massive explosion killing everyone on Crait?

Thoughts?

@Good-olio Raeh

I took it to mean that he would make the canon implode. I'd think the AT-ATs would blow up, and also maybe Kylo's ship? I'm not sure how pervasive the grid would be, though.

@Dar-ren19 Me neither. I am not sure how pervasive it would be. Crait seems very fragile, very brittle. So I wonder an implosion of that magnitude would cost? Would it topple the base above, not in its total destruction but in burying those inside.  I am pretty positive it would take out all the Resistance fighters that flew out to meet the Resistance: so Rose, Poe, etc....

But the physics of implosions are not my strong suit. So I don’t know. I wonder if Roses’s salvation of Finn was not just as statement of a theme but an actual salvation from his recklessness...

It is Stormtrooper thinking: it doesn’t matter who or how many lives it costs: you just do whatever you can to kill so that you can win.