Rey & Kylo Ren Connection (a Reylo Star Wars forum)
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Post by karamelreylo Thu 04 Mar 2021, 9:10 pm

This is all so frustrating and it pisses me off. I can't fathom why you would have so much hatred for a character that you created. Just because he's popular? It's so dumb.

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Post by motherofpearl1 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 2:25 am

Yes, it is dumb. DLF created a genuinely interesting, complex character and instead of congratulating themselves on giving Lucas's characters such a rich, fascinating heir....they decided to make him the villain and then got peeved that audiences preferred him to their dull, Han/Luke/Leia rip off heroes. One of the very few comments I agree with on 'the forum I cannot mention' said that Ben should have been a protagonist rather than an antagonist. And a youtuber said the ST should have been his story, not Rey's. Fact is, DLF failed to make Rey interesting enough; they wanted a female lead and thought audiences would be happy with a lead that was a woman, that that 'novelty' alone would satisfy viewers and that they didn't have to bother actually making her a well rounded character. They then either refused or didn't notice how audiences were embracing Ben rather than the others, and instead of seeing that they stubbornly decide to demonise his character post TLJ.
They should have turned Ben and Rey into dual protagonists in TROS. Rey as a character was always at her best when interacting with Kylo. But no. Because their superior little heroine is so amazing she doesn't need a man. And in an extreme act of childish pettiness they have chosen to demonise Ben Solo. They have a scene in the rubbish that is TROS where he tortures Chewie. They show him strutting around in that godawful helmet assaulting his officers. They retcon their own supplementary material which showed he had nothing to do with the temple massacre. And finally....apparently there's a good chance they will show he was responsible for killing the much loved baby Grogu from the Mandalorian.

Looking at this from a money making point of view, DLF have made an astonishing mistake. They should have milked Ben's popularity for all it's worth. If they have no intention of making more live action films or Adam is (understandably) unwilling to reprise the character, they could always continue his story in comics, books and animated material. But instead of bringing his character back they choose to destroy him - and also his fans. This is far more than a dislike of reylo, this is a determined hate campaign. DLF and their nasty little pet Abrams disgust me. They don't deserve an audience.
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Post by Saracene Fri 05 Mar 2021, 3:55 am

If there was ever a time to do the Chewie torture scene, it was back in TFA when Kylo's portrayal was mostly that of a villain for a large chunk of the film. It would have been a very weird move to have it in the last film right before you redeem him; there's a good reason why you don't see Vader blow up planets or torture a beloved character in RotJ.

I think though that Kylo's character wouldn't have been anywhere as compelling if he wasn't the antagonist/villain, or at least starting out as one? He's IMO fascinating exactly because of his duality, the lonely abused boy on one hand and a darker, brutal side on the other that's just as real. Of course there's gotta be a balance and you can't go too dark at the wrong moment, but I really don't think anyone set out to demonise Ben out of spite; they did cut the scene didn't they?

Was there actually anything official about the Grogu killing thing? I know that some fans speculated about the possibility, but you can't always blame the company for the fan speculation.
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Post by motherofpearl1 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 8:19 am

Saracene wrote:If there was ever a time to do the Chewie torture scene, it was back in TFA when Kylo's portrayal was mostly that of a villain for a large chunk of the film. It would have been a very weird move to have it in the last film right before you redeem him; there's a good reason why you don't see Vader blow up planets or torture a beloved character in RotJ.

I think though that Kylo's character wouldn't have been anywhere as compelling if he wasn't the antagonist/villain, or at least starting out as one? He's IMO fascinating exactly because of his duality, the lonely abused boy on one hand and a darker, brutal side on the other that's just as real. Of course there's gotta be a balance and you can't go too dark at the wrong moment, but I really don't think anyone set out to demonise Ben out of spite; they did cut the scene didn't they



https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1374978/The-Mandalorian-season-3-Luke-Skywalker-Grogu-Kylo-Ren-sequel-death-Disney-Plus-video-ont


Was there actually anything official about the Grogu killing thing? I know that some fans speculated about the possibility, but you can't always blame the company for the fan speculation.
@Saracene

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Post by karamelreylo Fri 05 Mar 2021, 8:37 am

motherofpearl1 wrote:Yes, it is dumb. DLF created a genuinely interesting, complex character and instead of congratulating themselves on giving Lucas's characters such a rich, fascinating heir....they decided to make him the villain and then got peeved that audiences preferred him to their dull, Han/Luke/Leia rip off heroes. One of the very few comments I agree with on 'the forum I cannot mention' said that Ben should have been a protagonist rather than an antagonist. And a youtuber said the ST should have been his story, not Rey's. Fact is, DLF failed to make Rey interesting enough; they wanted a female lead and thought audiences would be happy with a lead that was a woman, that that 'novelty' alone would satisfy viewers and that they didn't have to bother actually making her a well rounded character. They then either refused or didn't notice how audiences were embracing Ben rather than the others, and instead of seeing that they stubbornly decide to demonise his character post TLJ.
They should have turned Ben and Rey into dual protagonists in TROS. Rey as a character was always at her best when interacting with Kylo. But no. Because their superior little heroine is so amazing she doesn't need a man. And in an extreme act of childish pettiness they have chosen to demonise Ben Solo. They have a scene in the rubbish that is TROS where he tortures Chewie. They show him strutting around in that godawful helmet assaulting his officers. They retcon their own supplementary material which showed he had nothing to do with the temple massacre. And finally....apparently there's a good chance they will show he was responsible for killing the much loved baby Grogu from the Mandalorian.

Looking at this from a money making point of view, DLF have made an astonishing mistake. They should have milked Ben's popularity for all it's worth. If they have no intention of making more live action films or Adam is (understandably) unwilling to reprise the character, they could always continue his story in comics, books and animated material. But instead of bringing his character back they choose to destroy him - and also his fans. This is far more than a dislike of reylo, this is a determined hate campaign. DLF and their nasty little pet Abrams disgust me. They don't deserve an audience.
@motherofpearl1

Sometimes I ask myself why they didn't give Han and Leia a daughter in the first place and then have the villain come from outside the family, not that I don't love Ben. It's just a daughter would have been an easy way to have a female protagonist instead of trying to shoehorn a random into the Skywalker saga.

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Post by motherofpearl1 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 8:45 am

Actually that is exactly what I think. Why didn't Rey turn out to be a long lost daughter of one of the OT cast, and Kylo be the 'big bad' Jedi Killer, no redeeming characteristics and get an actor not as skilled as Adam at making unlikeable characters sympathetic?

I wonder if this might have been JJ's original plan but Kasdan came up with Ben Solo? Because the more I compare TFA to TROS the more I am convinced that TFA's best qualities were due to Kasdan's writing, and not JJ's.
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Post by californiagirl Fri 05 Mar 2021, 11:07 am

The Grogu thing is pure speculation, and I don't buy into it. Mandalorian is getting at least two more seasons, and given the whole thing up to this point was about Mando with the lil green alien toddler, I suspect they will end back up together. It's just smack in the middle of the story right now, I think most people realized there would be a separation at some point for a bit.

But the fact they actually filmed a torture scene, like it had potential for inclusion, of a beloved character by the character who's supposed to be redeemed in the final movie is a very weird decision. They seem to have had more interest in villain Kylo, even at the end of the trilogy, than the rather rushed redeemed Ben who didn't have dialogue.
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Post by motherofpearl1 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 11:39 am

californiagirl wrote:The Grogu thing is pure speculation, and I don't buy into it. Mandalorian is getting at least two more seasons, and given the whole thing up to this point was about Mando with the lil green alien toddler, I suspect they will end back up together. It's just smack in the middle of the story right now, I think most people realized there would be a separation at some point for a bit.

But the fact they actually filmed a torture scene, like it had potential for inclusion, of a beloved character by the character who's supposed to be redeemed in the final movie is a very weird decision. They seem to have had more interest in villain Kylo, even at the end of the trilogy, than the rather rushed redeemed Ben who didn't have dialogue.
@californiagirl

Regarding Grogu, yes it's speculation but now they have retconned the Temple massacre in one of their tie in books I would not be surprised at.all.

As for your opinion on TROS...I know Abrams, LF and Daisy among others have all insisted that 'nothing was changed', I have a very strong feeling that their intent was to make Kylo an out and out villain, and that they decided to have him redeemed at the last moment because of his popularity with fans. We already know for a fact that he originally was meant to disappear down that hole and never be seen again, which to be honest I would have preferred as his fate would have been more ambiguous.
A lot of haters have insisted that Rian's plan at the end of TLJ was to regress Kylo once again into an all out baddie, which of course is what they wanted....but I don't think so. I think that was actually the studio's plan; they allowed Rian free reign with Kylo's character development but didn't want him redeemed, at least not in part 2. Jason Frye's excellent tie in novel had Rey sympathetic and compassionate towards Ben right until the end....when she suddenly became emotionally detached to the extent of sparing him purely because it was 'the will of the Force' rather than her own feelings. Frye later admitted he had to make it like that at the request of DLF.
Rian however was very crafty. He was told to put that silly bit of flirting between Poe and Rey because Trevorrow wanted DameRey. But notice how we see Rey looking longingly at Finn tending Rose; it was the look of someone envying their closeness. And of course, Ben's lost look at Rey before she slammed the door in his face - the look of someone who had only regrets, plus the scene with the golden dice.

How I wish Rian had written and directed TROS. And how genuinely sad I am that the 'Beauty and the Beast' promise this trilogy gave us at the beginning was never fulfilled. The line from Rae Carson's novel just about sums it up. Belle loved the Beast before she met the Prince; and that love
triggered the breaking of the spell and the change from Beast to man.
Rey's thought in TROS....'she would have liked to get to know Ben Solo but she could never have loved Kylo Ren[i]
[/i]
Because to the self righteous and arrogant Rey, who killed stormtroopers without a second's thought and no remorse, who stabbed a man who was unarmed and devastated at the loss of his mother, who blew up a ship with the dark side, who reacted repeatedly with violence when a true Jedi advocated against it....this Rey considered herself too good to love Kylo Ren. Yet Ben Solo was willing to love Palpatine's granddaughter.
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Post by Saracene Fri 05 Mar 2021, 3:43 pm

That article about the Mandalorian was just speculation from someone who watched the show with no official info, which illustrates my point.

I think that Kylo’s portrayal in TRoS was just more of JJ’s laziness and lack of imagination as a writer. Basically Kylo got locked into the villain role once JJ decided that TRoS was going to be about the Trio going on an adventure. He needed an active antagonist who would go after the heroes and Kylo was the easiest choice. He had the juicy premise of Kylo becoming the Supreme Leader in TLJ, but then just went back to the TFA formula where masked Kylo is chasing the good guys with a bunch of underlings while a shadowy Big Bad sits on a throne somewhere.

As for why they didn’t just make Rey Han and Leia’s daughter from the beginning, I kinda suspect that there’s a degree of bias there because, as loved as they are, Han and Leia were secondary characters to Luke. Yes Leia is technically a Skywalker, but in the OT that was a hurried last-minute revelation and she never went by the name. Unconsciously or not, I think that in the minds of the makers only Luke’s kid would cut it as a protagonist, and if they weren’t his kid they’d still need to end up with the Skywalker name somehow.

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Post by DeeBee Fri 05 Mar 2021, 5:43 pm

californiagirl wrote:There's a whole thread about Joonas' new memoir going around. Lots of interesting bits, but these stuck out.

On TLJ:

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This was shocking. I remember hearing about the concept for a torture scene in the art book, apparently they actually filmed it. I agree with Joonas, I think that would have too much for a mild PG-13 film, especially SW, it sounds more intense than the TFA scene with Poe. On top of making no sense at all. But then, most of TROS doesn't make sense.

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@californiagirl

Thanks for sharing! Interesting that LFL gave the okay for this information to be revealed. It really is awful to see that image!
I guess this explains how Chewie’s bandolier ended up in Kylo’s room with all his other treasures!

For me, it is not shocking to find out they were planning on going with this torture scene and then redeeming Kylo/Ben because I think they were always going with the last minute, I’ll sacrifice my life redemption path a la Vader... with that you can push those limits pretty far. I wonder what Adam thought of that scene and his character... not that I really think I would ever find out.
.
For those who hate Kylo this is more proof he was really evil & shouldn’t have been redeemed. Killing Han, torturing chewie. This guy needs to be punished! It may viewed as evidence he wasn’t going to be redeemed by some.
For those who connected with the character and sympathised, and longed for Han’s son to return to the light? This can be viewed as a decision that shows Kylo/Ben was meant to be not too evil! And... it’s a sign that TROS could have been way worse than it ended up being for Kylo/Ben fans!!
Either way it works for LFL and gives them what they want. Keeping the fans fed and wanting more...

I’m irritated by this reveal! Which has led to some self reflection here... I’ll share but don’t expect others to agree.... Releasing knowledge of this cut footage is more fuel for the fandom fires that the LFL business model is based upon. Why invest my emotional energy engaging with this story when we don’t get true resolution, and they won’t commit to the story they are telling?
I’m starting to feel like Star Wars these days is cult like, you gotta stay across all the media and then synthesise it all, only for it to be overwritten by the next piece of content. But, if you are a fan who doesn’t want to do that the movies of the ST, for me, are confusing and don’t make sense without hearing information that is supplementary to the movies. This is how it sucks you in...I’m starting to wonder if this was intentional. It worked on me for a time.
The OT and PT movies worked  on their own. IMHO the ST does not, and for a time in my life it sucked me into spending more money, and more time to engage with the stories... no more.

Maybe I should be thanking JJ and CT for making such a crap movie, because if not for that I would still be giving too much time and money to that company researching connections between the movies and all canon, looking for meaning, hoping for a satisfying coherent whole because I had invested myself so heavily in SW. It was fun while I was in it, but ultimately, it doesn’t and can’t deliver on what is promised.. this is why for fans it’s never enough, they always want more and consume the next thing... and the next thing... it’s a story without an end...

When I was growing up, I went through a phase of watching daytime soaps. Till I realised the couple I was cheering to get together would never get a HEA, and no satisfying end. I want a story with a satisfying end. Not the same story just going around and around and always ending up in the same place. I’m now viewing SW as this same business model...
So,  I’m no longer invested, but am sad about what has become of the Star Wars I grew up loving.
Maybe one day I can reconnect with that... we’ll see....
Embarassed Sorry to ramble on!
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Post by motherofpearl1 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 2:06 am

You feel exactly the same way as I do.
There have been other franchises I've loved, but had to reluctantly bow out of because of creative decisions and the direction they took, but I never once dreamed SW would be one of them. It has always been the ultimate 'happy ending' franchise for me, which is why it was a good antidote for depression. I remember way back in the 1990s one of the guys involved with the PT (forgive me, I can't remember who Very Happy ) said that tragic as the ending of ROTS was, it showed Baby Luke looking at the sunrise on Tattooine and ultimately foreseeing his redeeming his father, because 'hope lives in the galaxy.'
But to me that hope was crushed when Ben Solo faded into the Force.

I am genuinely bewildered that DLF chose to end the family bloodline the way they did. Even more, that they think ending the film with the villain's granddaughter being the one the mantle was passed to makes for a 'hopeful and satisfying' ending? Why this need to end the Skywalker family forever - yet allow the name to live on, and as insult to injury be taken by the descendant of their worst enemy? How can having the creature Lucas himself described as a 'galactic Satan' succeed in his aim of forever destroying Anakin's family be a positive ending? The heroes are dead. The villain's bloodline lives on. And no matter how you try to spin it, that is the bare bones of the story. Everything the Skywalkers sacrificed was....for nothing. The last of their line's only purpose was to serve as life force donor for the seed of the man that obliterated them. And she.....took it as her due and never mentioned what he'd done for her to anyone, instead seizing everything that was his as if it was her right. Even the kiss is now being described as Rey 'showing her gratitude'.
Disney, once a company known for their HEA endings, have let us down big time. And LF seem to be suffering from major head in the sand syndrome if they fail to see how completely unlikeable they have made Rey. As for me....I too won't be wasting any more money on them. The ST, which I started out loving as a way forward for the descendants of the OT characters, turned out to be simply an ornate way of killing them all off.

And, to borrow how Rae Carson chose to describe Rey's last thoughts on the man who died for her.....I will always love Kylo Ren/Ben Solo. But I will never love Rey Skywalker, or any future material DLF might choose to put her in.
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Post by Kyla Ren Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:31 am

Well, I’m way behind as usual. I just saw some of the tweets and discussions about the Kylo/Chewbacca torture scene. Sad I don’t even know what to say anymore. The more I hear about TROS, the more I hate it. Why would they even think of including a scene like that? They probably really didn't have any kind of plan going into the whole mess that was the sequel trilogy. I just have no words. I have no faith in Disney or Lucasfilm whatsoever. TROS was absolute garbage. It was a horrible movie and hearing about this just makes me hate it even more. I really feel like they ruined not just TROS and the sequel trilogy, but the entire Star Wars saga. What were they thinking? Can you imagine how horrible that scene would have been? I am just so completely disgusted by DLF and the more I hear about that movie, the more I feel like I’m done with Star Wars unless they do something to fix it. But they most likely won’t. If anything, they might even make it worse. Sad At this point, I don’t think anything would surprise me. They just make so many awful decisions. Sad

If there were any scene between Kylo and Chewbacca in TROS, it should have been at the end of the movie as part of the happy ending we should have gotten, after Kylo became Ben again and returned with Rey. After all, Chewbacca helped Rey in TLJ when she mailed herself to Kylo. He must have believed that Kylo was not a lost cause and that Ben was still in there somewhere. Han, Luke, and Leia deserved a happy ending after all that they went through. Not that bleak, depressing, horrible ending that we got in TROS with Rey Fakewalker. Ben, Han, all of the Skywalkers, and the entire saga deserved better. As you can see, I am still very bitter about this. And I think I always will be. Sad
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Post by motherofpearl1 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:05 am

Kyla Ren wrote:Well, I’m way behind as usual.  I just saw some of the tweets and discussions about the Kylo/Chewbacca torture scene. Sad  I don’t even know what to say anymore.  The more I hear about TROS, the more I hate it.  Why would they even think of including a scene like that?  They probably really didn't have any kind of plan going into the whole mess that was the sequel trilogy.  I just have no words.  I have no faith in Disney or Lucasfilm whatsoever.  TROS was absolute garbage.  It was a horrible movie and hearing about this just makes me hate it even more.  I really feel like they ruined not just TROS and the sequel trilogy, but the entire Star Wars saga.  What were they thinking?  Can you imagine how horrible that scene would have been?  I am just so completely disgusted by DLF and the more I hear about that movie, the more I feel like I’m done with Star Wars unless they do something to fix it.  But they most likely won’t.  If anything, they might even make it worse. Sad  At this point, I don’t think anything would surprise me.  They just make so many awful decisions. Sad

Seconded all the way. I genuinely don't know why they bothered with either Ben's redemption or even the Reylo kiss, as all they are doing with his character is retconning all his sympathetic traits, such as the incident of the temple, and the possible fact that he killed Grogu. I have repeatedly tried to find a logical, sensible reason for this, but I can't. They seem to have been reading the 'we hate Kylo Ren' thread on the forum I can't mention and have decided to give those repulsive little trolls what they want, just as they gave the Fandom Menace what they wanted by retconning TROS. Even the characters in Dune eventually got their HEA, but Star Wars, that 'bastion of hope' has thrown in the towel and turned a magnificent space opera and adult fairy tale into  a cynical depressing tale of 'how the bad guy wins'.

What truly rankles is how many bets they actually think this horror IS a 'happy ending.' They think that giving Palpatine's sole heir the Skywalker name makes up for the loss of SWs First Family. They have ZERO idea how unlikeable they have made Rey. I will neither forget or forgive that at the end of the tie in novel for DROSS, which is the name I will now refer to it by, Rey 'could never love Kylo Ren'. Kylo was the shield Ben Solo created around himself. He killed Snoke for her. He never once hated her for scarring him, stabbing him when he was defenseless. He DIED FOR HER. Yet she was much too superior for him. Palpatine's sleazy little succubus daughter, who stole everything from the real Skywalker, considered herself too good for him. And even sadder.....so did he. The broken abuse victim gave this woman his life because he thought that was all he was good for....and she agreed with him.
My God. How on earth could Disney, or LF, actually believe that anyone other than a few Kylo hating pond life would have any affection for this self righteous horror that used to be Rey, to the extent they happily accept her as the Ultimate Hero of the entire saga. What kind of people are they?

Seconded all the way. They seem to be determined to 're imagine' Ben as a bad guy who deserved to die, hence the retconning of the Temple massacre, the possibility of Ben being responsible for killing Grogu, and God knows what else. I have tried and tried to come up with a fair and logical reason for their behaviour,

If there were any scene between Kylo and Chewbacca in TROS, it should have been at the end of the movie as part of the happy ending we should have gotten, after Kylo became Ben again and returned with Rey.  After all, Chewbacca helped Rey in TLJ when she mailed herself to Kylo.  He must have believed that Kylo was not a lost cause and that Ben was still in there somewhere.  Han, Luke, and Leia deserved a happy ending after all that they went through.  Not that bleak, depressing, horrible ending that we got in TROS with Rey Fakewalker.  Ben, Han, all of the Skywalkers, and the entire saga deserved better.  As you can see, I am still very bitter about this.  And I think I always will be. Sad
@Kyla Ren

I'm sorry but for some reason my computer has put my comment in the middle of Kyla's post.
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Post by karamelreylo Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:30 am

What's the story on the Temple massacre being retconned?

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Post by motherofpearl1 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 10:58 am

I originally saw it in a scan one of the Trolls put on the Kylo haters forum; it was in a special edition book of The Rise of Skywalker but also....

check this out scroll down to 'enemy in the ranks'
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Jedi_Temple_of_Luke_Skywalker
Mad Evil or Very Mad Sad Mad Mad Mad
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Post by karamelreylo Sat 06 Mar 2021, 12:05 pm

motherofpearl1 wrote:I originally saw it in a scan one of the Trolls put on the Kylo haters forum; it was in a special edition book of The Rise of Skywalker but also....

check this out scroll down to 'enemy in the ranks'
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Jedi_Temple_of_Luke_Skywalker
Mad Evil or Very Mad Sad Mad Mad Mad
@motherofpearl1

Dumb. I have an extreme dislike of retconning in media. It makes everything so confusing. I've discussed it with my mom because soap operas do it, too.

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Post by motherofpearl1 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 12:26 pm

The way it's written on the wikipage is so over the top, it's ridiculous. I'm waiting for how they describe Rey, I wonder if they'll retcon her stabbing Kylo? Or reveal that she was in love with Finn all along?

I don't know if anyone on here from the UK is familiar with the UK sitcom One Foot In The Grave? But there is a quote from the central character that sums up just how I feel. Unfortunately I have to 'bleep' a couple words out but it reads like:
"I can't believe the sheer bl**** minded s**ishness of some people."

My sentiments exactly.
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Post by californiagirl Sat 06 Mar 2021, 8:34 pm

More from that Daisy interview. Though not as depressed as most of us about the ending, it's not her job to envision where her character can go, she's glad the kiss version stayed, and was still at least somewhat depressing.

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Post by karamelreylo Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:13 pm

californiagirl wrote:More from that Daisy interview. Though not as depressed as most of us about the ending, it's not her job to envision where her character can go, she's glad the kiss version stayed, and was still at least somewhat depressing.

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Lame, the only sad, bittersweet movie endings I think have beauty are Titanic and Pearl Harbor, off the top of my head. They're the only ones I think have rewatch value anyways. Oh, and I guess The Notebook, but I personally don't think that one is that sad because they lived a long life and then died together.

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Post by Saracene Sun 07 Mar 2021, 1:52 am

I watched the kiss scene and it sure as heck didn’t look like Rey had any idea that it was a goodbye scene, so I’m not sure what Daisy is talking about. Seems like she’s trying to add a pathos that wasn’t actually there in the movie where it counted.

From Rey’s point of view the whole thing is just a complete WTF. She hardly could have known that she actually died, so she wakes up to find Ben, kisses him and then he just drops dead out of a blue. No wonder she looks mostly confused.
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Post by motherofpearl1 Sun 07 Mar 2021, 2:38 am

I've got nothing against Daisy, apart from the possibility that her wanting to work more with John influencing Abrams (although I doubt it) but let's face it - she's a young actress, just starting out, and her 'big break' is playing the lead in the sequels to one of the most successful and loved film series of all time, now owned by one of the biggest megacorporations of all time. In short, she has to tread carefully and do nothing that might 'blacklist' her.
I vividly remember her praising a piece of reylo art post TFA, then the next thing I knew she was saying she 'couldn't' get behind the relationship. Remember Disney had a reputation for being right wing in the past, so post the Weinstein scandal and various other concerns, such as the #blm campaign, they are being extra careful. I've noticed on other forums quite a few people saying Rey should have a romantic relationship with Finn, and that the reylo relationship was 'forced' and 'racist', on top of the usual 'offensive to women' c***. John has said in the past he wanted a Rey/Finn romance and Alan Dean Foster said that he wanted it and tried to 'push' it in the TFA novelisation. In short Daisy is now in a position where it might be bad for her future career if she defends reylo (my God is that how low we've sunk? Neutral )

At the end of the day TROS is a rushed, mixed mess. The whole film is a classic example of 'making things up as they went along', from Adam having to record new lines in his own closet, to repeated post film retcons by the studio - a particular gem is when people asked them that if Rey had actually 'died' her body would have disappeared and after that they said: 'well, she wasn't actually 'dead'....' Rolling Eyes'....
You get the picture.

We all went to the cinemas expecting a satisfying end to a nine film, forty two year old family saga and got an expensive version of Plan 9 From Outer Space. As for bittersweet....sorry but that ending was all bitter and no sweet. I expected to be moved but Ben's death was handled so poorly all I felt was fury. The last part of the film, he was shuffled aside to promote Rey andher Amazing Friends in a manner that was almost laughable. An idiot could see they just wanted rid of him because they wanted we, the audience, to see that it was all about the Trio, and that was who we must care about despite them being the dullest group of heroes I've seen in a long time.

I looked up Rey on the official SW Wiki, the page says nothing much apart from Disney wanting the ST to have a 'female' lead and that was their prime motive for making them. If only we'd had someone as interesting as Jyn Erso, but alas, it wasn't to be.
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Post by Kyla Ren Sun 07 Mar 2021, 4:20 am

motherofpearl1 wrote:Seconded all the way. I genuinely don't know why they bothered with either Ben's redemption or even the Reylo kiss, as all they are doing with his character is retconning all his sympathetic traits, such as the incident of the temple, and the possible fact that he killed Grogu. I have repeatedly tried to find a logical, sensible reason for this, but I can't. They seem to have been reading the 'we hate Kylo Ren' thread on the forum I can't mention and have decided to give those repulsive little trolls what they want, just as they gave the Fandom Menace what they wanted by retconning TROS. Even the characters in Dune eventually got their HEA, but Star Wars, that 'bastion of hope' has thrown in the towel and turned a magnificent space opera and adult fairy tale into  a cynical depressing tale of 'how the bad guy wins'.

What truly rankles is how many bets they actually think this horror IS a 'happy ending.' They think that giving Palpatine's sole heir the Skywalker name makes up for the loss of SWs First Family. They have ZERO idea how unlikeable they have made Rey. I will neither forget or forgive that at the end of the tie in novel for DROSS, which is the name I will now refer to it by, Rey 'could never love Kylo Ren'. Kylo was the shield Ben Solo created around himself. He killed Snoke for her. He never once hated her for scarring him, stabbing him when he was defenseless. He DIED FOR HER. Yet she was much too superior for him. Palpatine's sleazy little succubus daughter, who stole everything from the real Skywalker, considered herself too good for him. And even sadder.....so did he. The broken abuse victim gave this woman his life because he thought that was all he was good for....and she agreed with him.
My God. How on earth could Disney, or LF, actually believe that anyone other than a few Kylo hating pond life would have any affection for this self righteous horror that used to be Rey, to the extent they happily accept her as the Ultimate Hero of the entire saga. What kind of people are they?

Seconded all the way. They seem to be determined to 're imagine' Ben as a bad guy who deserved to die, hence the retconning of the Temple massacre, the possibility of Ben being responsible for killing Grogu, and God knows what else. I have tried and tried to come up with a fair and logical reason for their behaviour,

I don't think there is a logical reason for what they've done.  And everything they say and do just seems to make things worse.  And yes, it really is truly mind-boggling how they seem to think that what they gave us was a happy ending.

Remember this interview that JJ gave at the D23 Expo a few months before TROS came out where he said something like he couldn't wait for us to see what happens to Kylo and that it was pretty fun:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_vutISPPtM

Exactly what about Kylo's fate was "pretty fun"?  What was JJ thinking?  What were ANY of them thinking?????
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Post by motherofpearl1 Sun 07 Mar 2021, 5:17 am

I try to tell myself that he meant the return of Ben Solo, but TBH I suspect killing off a character he knew was very well loved was something he found amusing.
I remember years ago a guy named Joe Quesada took over at Marvel comics and introduced some changes a lot of fans didn't like. I was a huge X Men fan back then, but I quit because I didn't like the direction they took them in. But apparently Quesada made a lot of SpiderMan fans VERY unhappy with what he did with the character of MJ Parker....unfortunately some of them resorted to Fandom Menace behaviour and uttered death threats....which I don't condone at all.....but Quesada did it purely because he personally disliked MJ and when he was told that a lot of her fans were very upset he actually laughed, said that if they didn't like it don't buy the products, and that he actually enjoyed upsetting them.

JJ reminds me very much of Joe Q,that little smirk when he said Kylo's fate was 'pretty fun' said it all to me. The fact is, a SW website poll revealed Kylo was the character the audience wanted to see the most and I am pretty sure Abrams wasn't happy that fans loved his character more than Rey. Unlike Rian Johnson, who saw this and made BOTH characters the focus of TLJ, Abrams' answer was to literally put her front and centre to such a degree ALL the rest of the cast suffered from it. You can see it in every scene of TROS, but mostly the last 20 minutes where Ben Solo was treated as an afterthought. And apparently he thought breaking the hearts of most of the audience, including 'oldsters' like me who up to then enjoyed the ST, was amusing.
Here's the poll for those who haven't seen it. https://www.starwars.com/news/poll-who-do-you-most-want-to-see-in-star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker

What truly rankles is DLF apparently agree with them, now they are retconning supplementary material to show him as a one note bad guy. I also suspect that we will get future supplementary material showing Rey and Finn creating a new Jedi order and fighting side by side, and in all likelihood ending up as lovers. Fine for FinnRey fans, but this particular fan is out - as Joe Q said, I have no intention of spending money on a product I no longer enjoy.
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Post by unicorn Sun 07 Mar 2021, 5:28 am

saracene wrote:From Rey’s point of view the whole thing is just a complete WTF. She hardly could have known that she actually died, so she wakes up to find Ben, kisses him and then he just drops dead out of a blue. No wonder she looks mostly confused.

Not only from Rey´s POW. These were exactly my thoughts, too through this scene (ok, almost through the whole movie Mad )
This crap is the most f*cked up reunion-kiss-death-scene I ever had to watch. And I´m really old and watched a lot of them.
No emotional weight, no heart, no soul. It´s so bad written and directed/executed, it´s almost comical. Almost. Mad
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Post by Saracene Sun 07 Mar 2021, 2:51 pm

I get that Daisy probably feels like she has to tread carefully with Reylo, but the whole “she’s a young actress just starting out” is wearing a bit thin IMO. She’s 28 and it’s been six years since her big breakout film, which is an eternity in a young actress’s career.
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