The enigmatic Lor San Tekka

AnneNeville wrote:I hadn't given much thought to Lor San Tekka. But it appears from what we have seen that LST has had close ties to Luke, and clearly he knew Ben well before he turned.

I think that LST had ties to the Jedi Academy, and he knew Ben there, perhaps as a scholar or a teacher of light side philosophy. If there was a whole academy, clearly there was more than one kid, and surely Luke couldn't have taught them all on his own. If LST taught meditation or emotional regulation, I can see young Ben struggling and hating his teacher.

It would be interesting to me if LST somehow escaped the massacre, and if he did escape (by mercy or by accident) it would make Kylo's execution of him more than a mere fit of pique. It would be, then, not just a fit of pique, but completing the job that was supposed to have been done years ago.

And I doubt Kylo wants someone who knows so much about his weaknesses anywhere near Hux, Phasma, and holographic Snoke.

@AnneNeville

They definitely have a history, that much is obvious.

Just rewatched TFA and I'm increasingly convinced Lor San goaded Kylo into killing him.

Lor San would have made a valuable prisoner - he must have had a lot of knowledge the First Order would want. And he knew he would be unable to resist Kylo - the only one who could is Rey, and as Kylo himself said "She's strong with the Force."

I think he knew if he 'pushed his buttons' so to speak Kylo would lose it and kill him. He was an old man, he'd made his peace and wasn't afraid.

Just a thought.

Tekka knew he was going to die. He had accepted it. He said what he needed to say to Kylo, that he "could not deny the truth that is his family". Two characters had dying speeches about how Kylo wasn't where he belonged. But yeah, obviously all that foreshadowing is going nowhere and Kylo is just going to spend two movies getting eviler and becoming Palpatine 2.0.

I think people don't realize enough that Kylo shouldn't have killed him. He was falling for his personal interests right from the beginning. Tekka had seen the map. Tekka had information, but like you said, he pushed Kylo's buttons. Kylo's family is such an obvious sore-spot for him.

And that's what's interesting....So many people argue Kylo had a 'good' background. But where does that anger come from - it seems like hurt to me.
What truly happened to Kylo?

motherofpearl1 wrote:And that's what's interesting....So many people argue Kylo had a 'good' background. But where does that anger come from - it seems like hurt to me.
What truly happened to Kylo?

@motherofpearl1

Agreed, there's definitely a story there. The Visual Dictionary (written by Pablo Hidalgo) seems to allude to something in his past saying, "Ren has taken pains to bury his past, though he uses the unpleasant emotions that stir within him when reflecting on his youth to fuel his anger and dark powers."

Why would reflecting on his youth cause him unpleasant emotions? Why does he want to be strong like Vader?

Because poor Kylo, for some reason, hates himself.

At some time in his life either something - or someone - made him feel as if he was weak. As if he was 'inferior'.

I don't know who, but it happened.
Whatever he is, he is neither weak or a coward, just vulnerable. I noticed during the final battle, although he was hurt several times, he hardly made a sound. Not when Chewie shot him, not when Rey cut him. Finn screamed his head off when Kylo burned him. Finn is a brave man, yet he couldn't stop himself from screaming. Kylo never once screamed. His behaviour is that of someone mentally ill, yet he still does his best to show he is in control, when he's not. His mask and costume are not his only armour. He also hides behind an image of a ruthless, fearless person, while inside he's terrified. That takes courage.
Kylo has been fighting all his life, that is not the behaviour of a weak man. Someone who's been hurt, yes, but not someone who is weak.

I think he's very strong.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Because poor Kylo, for some reason, hates himself.

At some time in his life either something - or someone - made him feel as if he was weak. As if he was 'inferior'.

I don't know who, but it happened.
Whatever he is, he is neither weak or a coward, just vulnerable. I noticed during the final battle, although he was hurt several times, he hardly made a sound. Not when Chewie shot him, not when Rey cut him. Finn screamed his head off when Kylo burned him. Finn is a brave man, yet he couldn't stop himself from screaming. Kylo never once screamed. His behaviour is that of someone mentally ill, yet he still does his best to show he is in control, when he's not. His mask and costume are not his only armour. He also hides behind an image of a ruthless, fearless person, while inside he's terrified. That takes courage.
Kylo has been fighting all his life, that is not the behaviour of  a weak man. Someone who's been hurt, yes, but not someone who is weak.

I think he's very strong.

@motherofpearl1

I never understood how someone can look at a guy who just got half his stomach shot through to the point where he's bleeding all over the ground, watch him beat on said wound while still twirling around aggressively in a terrifying fight and not ever once stopping and crying out over his injuries and still be like "wow what a weakling how could he lose to a GIRL??"

They did everything possible short of cut limbs off to cripple Kylo mentally, physically, and emotionally during that fight so it made sense that Rey won, and he STILL almost won. Would have won if he'd wanted to kill Rey (which he very, very obviously didn't) and hadn't stopped to let her contemplate. I never understood the complaints about MaREY Sue or weak, pathetic Kylo.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Because poor Kylo, for some reason, hates himself.

At some time in his life either something - or someone - made him feel as if he was weak. As if he was 'inferior'.

I don't know who, but it happened.
Whatever he is, he is neither weak or a coward, just vulnerable. I noticed during the final battle, although he was hurt several times, he hardly made a sound. Not when Chewie shot him, not when Rey cut him. Finn screamed his head off when Kylo burned him. Finn is a brave man, yet he couldn't stop himself from screaming. Kylo never once screamed. His behaviour is that of someone mentally ill, yet he still does his best to show he is in control, when he's not. His mask and costume are not his only armour. He also hides behind an image of a ruthless, fearless person, while inside he's terrified. That takes courage.
Kylo has been fighting all his life, that is not the behaviour of  a weak man. Someone who's been hurt, yes, but not someone who is weak.

I think he's very strong.

@motherofpearl1
This is why it makes me so furious that people from some quarters just want to see this clearly sick man get killed off or get eviler for two more movies. What in actual f***? They made me care about him. The writers did that on purpose. They made a character people genuinely care for. He's been described as a metaphor for "countless youths who lose their way" by Kathleen Kennedy, and Star Wars is an optimistic story. That which is lost must be found. It would be sick, twisted and cruel to squander what they made, to turn this fictional (but still clearly ill) individual into a poster-child for "You can't fix everybody " or "Sometimes people are just too f***ed up". Fans relate to him because they can understand what it's like to believe in something so fundamentally that you would be willing to do anything for it, no matter how wrong. They relate because he's lost, like so many of us. Star Wars is not about nihilistic messages or using Han and Leia's screwed up kid as a metaphor for the unsaveable youths of the next generation. It's anti-war and promotes redemption, sacrifice, love and family. If I wanted to hear about sick people who likely can't be helped I would turn on the news and listen to one of a dozen stories about terrorist attacks. I would not watch Star Wars. We need a character like Kylo in our modern age. We need him more than ever.

There's a old saying:"Don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes."

motherofpearl1 wrote:And that's what's interesting....So many people argue Kylo had a 'good' background. But where does that anger come from - it seems like hurt to me.
What truly happened to Kylo?

@motherofpearl1

I don't think he had a "good" background at all.  I think he had a very painful one.

Slade wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:And that's what's interesting....So many people argue Kylo had a 'good' background. But where does that anger come from - it seems like hurt to me.
What truly happened to Kylo?

@motherofpearl1

I don't think he had a "good" background at all.  I think he had a very painful one.

@Slade

He appears to have a "good" background...on paper (being the son of Han and Leia and Luke's nephew). People are very quick to judge instead of realizing that you never know what goes on behind closed doors for someone's family.

I do think that there was some huge betrayal by his family...something beyond him getting sent off to Luke or being lied to about Vader being his grandfather.

i think he wouldn't be so hurt if he wasn't betrayed and he wouldn't pretty straight-out kill LST just because he's talking smack.

Speaking of which, how did LST know who Kylo really is? Have I missed something?

Airemyn wrote:Speaking of which, how did LST know who Kylo really is? Have I missed something?

@Airemyn

LST appears to be an associate of both Luke and Leia's, so he knows the family.

Airemyn wrote:Speaking of which, how did LST know who Kylo really is? Have I missed something?

@Airemyn
He was one of Luke's friends. He travelled with the two of them researching Jedi lore. It's part of the history of the story I think. Perhaps to be explored in a book or comic or even the films. They've left themselves lots of storytelling opportunities.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Airemyn wrote:Speaking of which, how did LST know who Kylo really is? Have I missed something?

@Airemyn
He was one of Luke's friends. He travelled with the two of them researching Jedi lore. It's part of the history of the story I think. Perhaps to be explored in a book or comic or even the films. They've left themselves lots of storytelling opportunities.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Wait, he travelled with Luke and Kylo? So kylo and lor spent a lot of time together prior to kylo's turn. Ok, that's interesting and makes kylo's comment "Look how old you've become" seem really strange given that Kylo (theoretically) last saw him a mere six years ago. It also makes it more disturbing (to me) that Kylo killed him. Interesting.

Slade wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

Airemyn wrote:Speaking of which, how did LST know who Kylo really is? Have I missed something?

@Airemyn
He was one of Luke's friends. He travelled with the two of them researching Jedi lore. It's part of the history of the story I think. Perhaps to be explored in a book or comic or even the films. They've left themselves lots of storytelling opportunities.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Wait, he travelled with Luke and Kylo? So kylo and lor spent a lot of time together prior to kylo's turn. Ok, that's interesting and makes kylo's comment "Look how old you've become" seem really strange given that Kylo (theoretically) last saw him a mere six years ago. It also makes it more disturbing (to me) that Kylo killed him. Interesting.

@Slade
Well, I don't know for sure when he travelled with them. I just know that Luke travelled with Tekka, and Ben travelled with Luke as his student. He might not have seen him in years and years though (much longer than the 6 years between Kylo's fall and TFA).

Other than propensities towards the Dark that may have passed to him through his bloodline (ie Darth), I had read Kylo was deeply affected by his parents' rocky marriage. Not sure if that is canon, but if they fought all the time and he got brood-y and 'dark" so they began to fear the level of Darth in him enough that he was sent away, a kid might feel he was to blame for all the problems in the family. That he was why they fought. That he was bad and so they sent him away. (And in TFA they talk about how Han used to leave all the time. They don't make clear if that was only after Ben left or before but if it was before that would also fuel his feeling he was bad in some way and not good enough)

Poor Kylo. He needs a good cuddle.

Kaleyna wrote:Other than propensities towards the Dark that may have passed to him through his bloodline (ie Darth), I had read Kylo was deeply affected by his parents' rocky marriage. Not sure if that is canon, but if they fought all the time and he got brood-y and 'dark" so they began to fear the level of Darth in him enough that he was sent away, a kid might feel he was to blame for all the problems in the family. That he was why they fought. That he was bad and so they sent him away. (And in TFA they talk about how Han used to leave all the time. They don't make clear if that was only after Ben left or before but if it was before that would also fuel his feeling he was bad in some way and not good enough)

Poor Kylo. He needs a good cuddle.

@Kaleyna

Yes, he does, much as some people find this ridiculous.

That Leia and Han's marriage was 'volatile' is definitely 'canon' - Carrie Fisher has recently said as much. And in TFA, her comments to Han very obviously mention that they split more than once - the split only became permanent after Ben turned. "No matter how much we fought, I always hated to see you leave."

Any normal kid would be affected by that. And Kylo was exceptionally 'gifted' in the Force. His attitude towards Rey gives me the impression that his need for power is not only a desire not to appear 'weak' (when he's anything but), but also a need for affection - at the moment he sees power as a substitute for love, but his need for love is still there. He's not 'in love' with her yet, of course, but he sees a kindred spirit. He desperately needs someone to make him see his parents rocky marriage wasn't his fault, and that ALL of us are born with the potential for good and bad - he's not a freak.
I wonder if the problem was they tried to push him too far along the 'white' Jedi path when what he needed was to accept both sides of his power and make it work for good, not to see his more passionate character traits as 'evil'. Kylo is too much in need of love to be the kind of Jedi Luke is - Luke accepted a celibate life, that isn't for someone as desperate for affection as Kylo.

The comment that Kylo needed a snuggle reminded me of this cartoon!