Re: Why did Kylo step back?

by motherofpearl1 Sat 09 Jul 2016, 9:55 am

Slade wrote:Oh, that's right! Kind of like the "recovered memories of satanic abuse " mess in the '80s in the US.

@Slade

We had a similar horror in the UK.

by motherofpearl1 Sat 09 Jul 2016, 10:08 am

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Reynak wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
Slade wrote:@Snufkin

As Snufkin mentioned upthread, outsiders don't often see that how a parent treats his kid can be different from how he treats other people. But if we go look back in the OT, Han very often is abrasive, arrogant, argumentative, self-centered, and extremely rude to those around him (on Hoth, at Mos Eisley, to droids, to Leia). He is also a criminal, so obviously he doesn't hold himself to the social and legal rules that many of the people around him do. So I'm not buying that Han was a great guy to non family. Honestly, I see him treating a young child the way he treats droids (rudely telling BB8 "move, ball", ignoring 3PO in the OT, eye-rolling, etc).
@Slade

snufkin wrote:
Slade wrote:@Snufkin

Even if he's being an a** about it, that's kind of my impression when Ben/Kylo tells Rey that even if she's already started to think of him as a father figure, Han would've disappointed her.
@snufkin

I've always loved Han, but part of his charm in a weird way was how he could be kind of a jacka**. He was the more "real-guy"/ "What the he** is this Force crap?" antidote to the Leia's super princess and Luke's Jedi wunderkind. But at the same time, I completely agree, he can be extremely protective to those he loves, but his patience is thing and he gives you no impression whatsoever that he was capable of turning into Alex P. Keaton's dad or Marty Crane with Niles and Frasier, lol. And I bring up those sitcom examples because you get the schtick of how fathers deal with their very different sons. I don't think Han would be anywhere near as successful at bridging that gap with Ben. In fact, if either of you read Bloodline, he and Leia are still fun and adventurous, but they have not morphed into "parental types" at all. They actually really seem like that great couple that never should have had kids. JJ intimated as much during the documentary, saying that Han and Leia were great, but they were volatile ... and the problem was "they had this kid ... and he is broken."

I think it might have been better if Han had a non-FS kid who saw the world the same way he did, but he didn't, and he couldn't deal IMO. He had a kid who not only seems like he is a force prodigy, but AD's performance also gives the impression that Ben is extremely emotionally sensitive. (I will address the dissociative issue in another post @slade ... I am very interested in checking out that article). Han and Leia are kind of anything, but sensitive. The phrase "tough as nails" comes to mind for them. That phrase does not come to mind for even an unmasked Kylo Ren.

And maybe this is just me pulling ideas out of my butt, but I wonder if the fact that Kylo/Ben seems to be so incredibly gifted in his mind-reading is also a huge clue, beyond AD's watery eyes and anguished looks, that Kylo/Ben's emotional sensitivity might be off the charts. To be able to pick that much up indicates a serious empath level of hyper-sensitivity for emotions and that would in turn indicate an ability to not just feel things almost imperceptible in others, but also in himself. That kind of sensitivity could be crushing, especially if he could sense his father's and mother's every little annoyance even when his parents were barely aware of it themselves. Maybe that's why he started to ease with Han at some point on the bridge, because this time, for once, he could feel the raw honesty and love, but then the guardian (Kylo) or Snoke or whatever, stepped in and made him do what he didn't want to do when he handed over the lightsaber.

On Kylo warning Rey off of Han, despite the setting, I think he actually meant it in as empathetic a way as possible given that he was in mind-reading mode, almost like a "Don't let that jacka** take you down the primrose path like he did with me." I think he was quite irritated that she thought so much of Han, but if he didn't have any empathy about it, he might have just been cutting and said, "You're an idiot if you think that guy is worth anything." Instead he said, "disappointed," like she was worth enough to not be disappointed, like he saw her as better than Han Solo.
@SoloSideCousin

The fact that he says Han would have disappointed her doesn't necessarily mean he sees Rey as better than Han, just that he identifies with her in the child's role to Han's father. I don't think Kylo thinks he deserved better than he got because self loathing in him is monumental. Disappointment comes when you think highly of someone and he lets you down. It's crueler than treason from a stranger. You admire or love a person ( or both) and he lets you down. So I don't get the impression that he is thinking Rey is better, only that she is mistaken in putting such expectations in Han because he will disappoint her and she will suffer for it, like Ben did and probably still does.

When you say someone disappointed you this implies you loved him once and thought highly of him but he let you down.
@Reynak

I don't know ... maybe I overstated it, but I do think Kylo could have been a much bigger jerk about it. He could have really mocked her for thinking anything of Han Solo. And I realize he is expressing his own disappointment here because he did love Han a lot, but at the same time he seems to be warning her off of Han ... which indicates that he thinks her to be more than a scavenger/lowly whatever ...In other words, that she is worth enough, that he cares enough to give her that warning. I see it as one more piece evidence showing that he is drawn to and protective of her. And when you add all this in with the gentle interrogation (by Kylo and FO standards, the bridal carry, the crouching before her, and that's before you get into the obvious attraction, it just makes me think again that there is something more here than his desire such as a vision or a prophecy.

@SoloSideCousin

I think he wants to be loved. I don't think it's a 'conscious' need, but he craves it. He isn't even aware that he craves it, he keeps telling everyone that he wants Rey as a student, but I think he's spent his entire life wanting someone to understand and love him for what he is. Yes, his parents love/loved him but they didn't understand him. It broke my heart when Han said there was 'too much Vader' in him. There was more 'Vader' in his wife than Ben; Han was involuntarily blaming his child for a power he'd been born with and had no choice in the matter. We are shades of grey, and I think in Rey Kylo saw a would - be kindred spirit, someone who wouldn't judge him. Ironic, considering what happened afterwards.

by Slade Sat 09 Jul 2016, 12:37 pm

motherofpearl1 wrote:
Slade wrote:I wonder why snoke projects himself as 25 feet high. Did he choose to appear that way or is that just how Space Skype works?
@Slade
https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/5052eeb8-44dd-4990-bd8e-28b3d574c2d7/gif

@motherofpearl1

Or snoke is just so horrible he does it to intimidate Kylo? I was looking again at those gifs of Kylo up there ^^^ and really looked at Adam's face and eyes in the first gif. Snoke is *up there*! Kylo looks quite like a child.

by Slade Sat 09 Jul 2016, 12:39 pm

motherofpearl1 wrote:
Slade wrote:Oh, that's right! Kind of like the "recovered memories of satanic abuse " mess in the '80s in the US.
@Slade

We had a similar horror in the UK.

@motherofpearl1

OMG

by motherofpearl1 Fri 15 Jul 2016, 2:22 am

There is some speculation that Kylo was 'brainwashed'; I can't help but think that might explain the odd expression on his face just after he killed his father - the way his eyes opened wide . It was almost like someone who'd just woke up.

Interesting... confused

by Slade Fri 15 Jul 2016, 3:15 am

Yes, a total disbelieving oh s*** moment.

by motherofpearl1 Tue 19 Jul 2016, 10:01 am

It's funny but I've been thinking a lot about Superman!

What we have here is Kal El, an orphaned child found by a decent couple who raised him and taught him to be a good person, despite the fact that he had superhuman powers that, let's face it, were terrifying. But the Kents were never afraid of their adopted child, in fact they nurtured him and loved him and raised him to be a good person.
Ben was Hn and Leia's flesh and blood but they feared him. 'Too much Vader in him', and Leia saw it as well as Han. They should have been more like the Kents, and instead seen their son. All this 'too much darkness in him' - all of us have it. If they had been as understanding as the Kents perhaps Ben would never have turned.

by Dark Padawan Mon 08 May 2017, 3:25 am

I think....Kylo stepped away he was affraid....not of Han hurting him. But...the other way around....of him loosing his resolve to be a ruthless evil darksider.

by motherofpearl1 Wed 24 May 2017, 11:58 am

Just seen 'Guardians of the Galaxy'....and without giving anything away one of the characters said:
"He may have been your father, but he wasn't your daddy."

I love Han....but I suspect he also wasn't a 'dad' until the very end. Sad

by HJ98 Sun 28 May 2017, 5:28 pm

Perhaps it's because I have a father of my own who has never really been "there" emotionally and physically for me in my growing up years that I have a lot of empathy for Kylo/Ben's character. When I was younger I really looked up to my dad and thought he was the greatest, busiest, most amazing person, but our relationship was limited because he worked all the time(he still does). As I've got older my eyes have been opened to the fact that he's not the best person and is a "disappointment" because he's chosen to be. The lack of having him in my life has led to unnecessary fears and bitterness. I'm pretty sure if I were a FS person in the Star Wars universe I'd probably end up in the same boat as Kylo, given the same circumstances(i.e. evil guy manipulation, mom not being there either, ect.). I think many people who have gone through emotional and mental abuse are wrongfully judged by society as a whole, like Kylo. We're told to move on, let it go, we're overly emotional or not emotional enough, it's our fault. That's where I think the figure that Kylo creates is eventually going to be a game changer in the way people think of the victims of emotional abuse. So many are judging him negatively.... and then there's us Reylo shippers that some think are outside our minds. lol!

by HJ98 Sun 28 May 2017, 5:44 pm

On the stepping back part, when someone you once trusted betrays you, you usually want them to keep their distance. It would be weird to want to have them in you personal space all of a sudden after not seeing them for years and years and you've both done things that were wrong. I'm going to agree that there has been some abuse happening to Kylo at some point and that pain he associates to Han. I'm sure he feels that Han's to blame to some extent for where he was in that moment(it's not like Han wasn't) and he wanted to avoid doing what he knew he had to do. Disappointment or no, Kylo still cared about his parents deep down inside. It was a very emotion filled scene. I don't cry much when watching movies but AD had me tearing up as if on cue. NOT FUNNY DUDE! Cry

by Cowgirlsamurai Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:30 am

I always thought that helmet=Kylo, no helmet=Ben trying to remain Kylo, but not doing so well because his expressions betray him. I think the step back is his way of not letting his father get in his space and break Kylo down further.

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