Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings

Saracene wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:I don't know... I feel like making that into a choice - is her ultimate fate to be with Kylo, or to play an important role in something going forward? - is falling into the age-old trap that heroines cease to have interesting lives as soon as they get married.

Why not both? Leia didn't have to choose. And you could argue that falling in love diminished the role Leia (as well as Han) was playing in the OT, but the OT wasn't Leia's heroine's journey, so Rey's story is going to play out differently no matter what.

But we'll see. I honestly can't guess who's going to die, who's going into exile, who's going to be happy and who isn't. I'm just trying to make an educated guess on the nature of Rey's journey. Is it going to be a journey of coming-of-age, or a journey of loss?


ETA: Sorry, didn't see your edit until now. But that the question - why would Rey be "retiring into marriage"?

@Darth Dingbat

Well with bolded, we're back to the dilemma of, can Kylo be accepted back into the broader society after everything he's done. Rey can be married and be a part of something bigger, no problem. But she can hardly play a part in something big going forward if she joins Kylo in exile and the two of them live somewhere on the fringes of the galaxy, isolated from the rest. Leia had no such issue with her choice of husband, she could be married and continue to participate in the politics.

Unless Rey and Kylo do the long-distance relationship thing?

@Saracene

Well, I've never been a big fan of the "Kylo and Rey go to exile together" theories...

But assuming they did, I should think they would actually go there to do "something bigger". Not just to grow potatoes and raise children on a suburb planet in the Unknown Regions, but to search for something important, to deal with some crucial problem, etc.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Well, I've never been a big fan of the "Kylo and Rey go to exile together" theories...

But assuming they did, I should think they would actually go there to do "something bigger". Not just to grow potatoes and raise children on a suburb planet in the Unknown Regions, but to search for something important, to deal with some crucial problem, etc.

@Darth Dingbat

That sounds pretty cliffhangery to leave the trilogy on; when are they going to deal with this crucial problem? But who knows. If they can make "Rey and Kylo together in the end" work, all power to them. I just don't see it at the moment.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I also feel like dark!Luke is similar to Reywalker in that it's another means of taking away the stakes of Ben being the fallen Skywalker heir. Like, so what if Kylo fell? Luke did too! And immediately it becomes all about Rey redeeming Luke or something. Dark Luke is just not as interesting as pathologically Light Luke, imo. It doesn't have the same weight as Luke potentially repeating the errors of the individuals who aided in pushing his father over the edge, but with his nephew instead. The latter just feels right to me.

@FrolickingFizzgig
This is one of the things that really irritate me at times and not only because I'm so partial towards Kylo, but just in general. Why do some people refuse to acknowledge the characters' roles for what they are? Why is it necessary to consistently undermine Kylo's importance (even though he takes up half the poster), take elements from his journey and impose them on other characters? Reywalker is an example of this where Rey has to play the role of the good Skywalker and redeem the family name because Kylo is not even considered a real Skywalker, #DarkLuke is another. It's as if all they can imagine Kylo doing in this trilogy is be a one-dimensional bad guy, literally a target for the heroes to defeat. Also, being able to imagine Rey saving Luke from the darkness, but failing to see the same scenario with Kylo is just hypocritical, even more so because the focus is no longer on Luke in the first place. He has an important role to play for sure (the potential "pathological light side" take is really intriguing and I'm sure MH will nail it), but it's not his story anymore, the triilogy is not about saving his soul, it is about a young woman's journey and a young man's redemption and how the two intertwine. Same with Finn. Why do certain fans feel the need to drag him into a plot where he doesn't belong and make him copy Rey's story and essentially be her sidekick when he can lead his own plot and be great all on his own as a Resistance hero? That's the most natural path for his character, following directly from what was established in TFA. Just like it feels natural for Luke to fall into the same trap of scepticism as his predecessors after everything he's been through, it is necessary both to raise the stakes even more and push Rey to make a choice, and for the audience to sympathize with Rey's perspective as she is the hero this time round. What would the story even be about if Luke just comes in willingly and saves the day? Why would we need Rey as protagonist?

We'll probably get an official poster with all the characters, but I really can't imagine the Force part of it looking too different from what we currently have. I'll admit I did not expect them to be so straighforward with the poster at first, but on a second thought it makes complete sense and shows us the essence of the story in TLJ: a young woman coming from nowhere, getting caught up in the complex conflict between uncle and nephew and the galactic conflict at large, in desperate search for her place in all this (along with her personal struggles of loneliness and need for belonging). This is where the emotional injury can come from IMO, Rey thinks she knows what's good and bad, she may secretly believe she can find belonging  following Luke's teachings, but once she realizes it's not all so black and white, her whole world will shatter, especially if she learns something about Kylo that will make her see him in a different light and come to terms with the fact she can't really hate him. Those conflicting feelings will torture her conscience if they arise. It has been foreshadowed already in a way with the "You're a monster line", like they're implicitly trying to tell us there will come a time when she won't see him like this. Like the poster shows, she will be the source of light for Kylo and Luke, reaffirming SW's eternal message that one can achieve salvation through love and hope.

The poster is a real gem, sums up the story so effectively.

Well put.
I can't help but think if anyone will 'rebuild the galaxy' post IX it'll be Finn - he isn't Force sensitive, he understands both sides of the conflict, and he'd make a good politician. Especially with help from Poe and Rose, although we know very little about Rose at this moment. Most Force sensitives avoided politics, the exception being Palpatine (and we know how that ended); even Leia chose not to develop her skills to focus on her political career.
Regarding 'dark' Luke, I see him as bitter and cynical, hence his desire to kill his own nephew. If Rey forgives and redeems Kylo it'll make Luke realise his disillusionment is wrong, and we may even get a scene with him remembering his own refusal to kill his own father. Ultimately maybe Luke will see the idealistic young man he was in Rey and try to regain that side of him again.
I'd much prefer this to her simply being his long lost daughter(yawn).

Leia wanted to bring Ben back home. And home is much more than just than being on the light or the right side. Home is a place where you feel loved, protected and being understood. I think that is the feeling it should give on a more emotional level. A sense of belonging.
How does it work with him leaving alone at the ending? After he has already been cast away by his family.

I have considered, that sending him off at the end could be the most compromising possibility - he does not die, but he can't stay with heroes either. Then it struck me that it was the choice that Leia also made. Because Ben was and still is, well, uncomfortable. It hurts me to think of him dead, but I also can not decide what to do with him, so I want to send him away. But that was a mistake by Leia. Could it be a mistake for him to leave again? There is so much focus for him to "return" that going away, again, I don't know...

I still find so many similarities between the story we were given and The Snow Queen by H. C. Andersen - the kidnapped boy, who was once sweet, the brave girl protagonist that believed the boy is not gone and still could return. And that fairy tale had a happy ending with both of them returning home, but already grown up - not a boy and a girl, but a man and a woman.

Whatever they do decide I really hope Kylo gets a happy ending. He's had such a sad life, with Snoke targeting him at such a young age, and his feelings of abandonment and self loathing. If Reylo happens I want the two of them to be happy. They deserve it.

Ha, Fizz's comment about an angry cosplayer reminded me of the trio of tiny Kylos who came to my front stoop on Halloween night. They were quite sweet. And confused when I told them that I didn't have the map, just candy. Disney's not making costumes for parents to dress up their little kids with a heartwarming Calvinist theme of predestination and getting punished even after atonement.

TBH I find the debate about how post-villain, atonement/redemption life somehow precludes a happy ending for Rey or her getting to be an adult to be as tedious as the hairsplitting that happens over Rey genealogy threads. They've already depicted Leia as wanting him back and in the published material as loving/cherishing him. If there's any one rule in Star Wars, it's that Leia's the smartest character and if she wants something, she always gets it. As for the ending, they could very well be like Jane Eyre and Rochester, tested by fire and bound together by an invisible string. Or given the references to the Jidaigeki/Chanbara genre, it may be like the original proposed ending for the OT of wandering off as ronin samurai. But otherwise, it's a fairy tale and for two characters who are depicted as starved of love, understanding, and companionship, it doesn't feel plausible (and overly cruel) to split them apart. And from what's been said by Harrison Ford and Lawrence Kasdan, you get the sense that what they intended is that the act becomes transcendental and Han literally sacrificing himself to save the child he loved. THere will likely be audience members who'll continue to be mad about what happened, but it's hard to see how anybody could have a greater investment/understanding of that character and what the meaning is than the actor and writer who've lived with him for over 40 years.

snufkin wrote:Ha, Fizz's comment about an angry cosplayer reminded me of the trio of tiny Kylos who came to my front stoop on Halloween night. They were quite sweet. And confused when I told them that I didn't have the map, just candy. Disney's not making costumes for parents to dress up their little kids with a heartwarming Calvinist theme of predestination and getting punished even after atonement.

TBH I find the debate about how post-villain, atonement/redemption life somehow precludes a happy ending for Rey or her getting to be an adult to be as tedious as the hairsplitting that happens over Rey genealogy threads. They've already depicted Leia as wanting him back and in the published material as loving/cherishing him. If there's any one rule in Star Wars, it's that Leia's the smartest character and if she wants something, she always gets it. As for the ending, they could very well be like Jane Eyre and Rochester, tested by fire and bound together by an invisible string. Or given the references to the Jidaigeki/Chanbara genre, it may be like the original proposed ending for the OT of wandering off as ronin samurai. But otherwise, it's a fairy tale and for two characters who are depicted as starved of love, understanding, and companionship, it doesn't feel plausible (and overly cruel) to split them apart. Final observation was a point @Lily Snape made - you don't treat somebody in that situation by sending them off on their own when the isolation caused that problem to begin with. I think there was a Harry Potter character mentioned, likely a bad guy, where not having a close community/connections could have prevented their fall.

@snufkin
LOL, you always make everything seem so simple. I love and appreciate it more all the time. I'm also pretty fed up with constantly having to come back to the same circular arguments, and this one really seems as stifling as Reynobi nowadays.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

snufkin wrote:Ha, Fizz's comment about an angry cosplayer reminded me of the trio of tiny Kylos who came to my front stoop on Halloween night. They were quite sweet. And confused when I told them that I didn't have the map, just candy. Disney's not making costumes for parents to dress up their little kids with a heartwarming Calvinist theme of predestination and getting punished even after atonement.

TBH I find the debate about how post-villain, atonement/redemption life somehow precludes a happy ending for Rey or her getting to be an adult to be as tedious as the hairsplitting that happens over Rey genealogy threads. They've already depicted Leia as wanting him back and in the published material as loving/cherishing him. If there's any one rule in Star Wars, it's that Leia's the smartest character and if she wants something, she always gets it. As for the ending, they could very well be like Jane Eyre and Rochester, tested by fire and bound together by an invisible string. Or given the references to the Jidaigeki/Chanbara genre, it may be like the original proposed ending for the OT of wandering off as ronin samurai. But otherwise, it's a fairy tale and for two characters who are depicted as starved of love, understanding, and companionship, it doesn't feel plausible (and overly cruel) to split them apart. Final observation was a point @Lily Snape made - you don't treat somebody in that situation by sending them off on their own when the isolation caused that problem to begin with. I think there was a Harry Potter character mentioned, likely a bad guy, where not having a close community/connections could have prevented their fall.

@snufkin
LOL, you always make everything seem so simple. I love and appreciate it more all the time. I'm also pretty fed up with constantly having to come back to the same circular arguments, and this one really seems as stifling as Reynobi nowadays. :lol:

@FrolickingFizzgig

Ha! Well hopefully simple as in getting to the heart/executive summary, not simple as in "she's Luke's daughter."

I go with all of the press/BTS comments from Harrison Ford and Lawrence Kasdan, they clearly wanted this to be Han's sacrifice and finally stepping up to the responsibilities he's spent a lifetime running from. They've lived with the character for 35+years and are the definitive keepers (sorry George) of who he is and what makes him tick. This is meant to be about Han sacrificing himself to protect/save his child. I don't really need any further explanation, I trust these people. There will likely be audience members who continue to loudly resent this choice. But if anybody's entitled to decide Han's fate and how it plays out, it's Ford and Kasdan. SW already has resentful/entitled fans thanks to the PT and the EU getting axed. So I doubt that Kathleen Kennedy is losing any sleep over fans who aren't going to be happy over what happens with Rey and Ben at the end of the ST.

And yes, beyond that the debate really gets tedious, circular, and not terribly productive.

@Snufkin.
Simple as in clear and logical. Everything always makes sense coming from you.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@Snufkin.
Simple as in clear and logical. Everything always makes sense coming from you.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Thanks! I was completely high yesterday from migraine medication so it's hard to know what directions the synapses are firing in. I certainly notice more typos.

snufkin wrote:Ha, Fizz's comment about an angry cosplayer reminded me of the trio of tiny Kylos who came to my front stoop on Halloween night. They were quite sweet. And confused when I told them that I didn't have the map, just candy. Disney's not making costumes for parents to dress up their little kids with a heartwarming Calvinist theme of predestination and getting punished even after atonement.

TBH I find the debate about how post-villain, atonement/redemption life somehow precludes a happy ending for Rey or her getting to be an adult to be as tedious as the hairsplitting that happens over Rey genealogy threads. They've already depicted Leia as wanting him back and in the published material as loving/cherishing him. If there's any one rule in Star Wars, it's that Leia's the smartest character and if she wants something, she always gets it. As for the ending, they could very well be like Jane Eyre and Rochester, tested by fire and bound together by an invisible string. Or given the references to the Jidaigeki/Chanbara genre, it may be like the original proposed ending for the OT of wandering off as ronin samurai. But otherwise, it's a fairy tale and for two characters who are depicted as starved of love, understanding, and companionship, it doesn't feel plausible (and overly cruel) to split them apart. And from what's been said by Harrison Ford and Lawrence Kasdan, you get the sense that what they intended is that the act becomes transcendental and Han literally sacrificing himself to save the child he loved. THere will likely be audience members who'll continue to be mad about what happened, but it's hard to see how anybody could have a greater investment/understanding of that character and what the meaning is than the actor and writer who've lived with him for over 40 years.

@snufkin

Well said.
I've loved Han Solo for forty years. And if his only child doesn't get saved and finds love and acceptance then my favourite all time movie character will have died for nothing.
To me, it was Snoke who killed Han Solo. Kylo was the weapon, Snoke pulled the trigger, through years of lies and manipulation of a vulnerable young man who just wanted to be loved.
Han's finest hour wasn't saving Luke at the last minute, or joining the rebellion. It was that last act of forgiveness he showed his broken child. And that will save Kylo, along with Rey.
Anyone who wants otherwise doesn't know Han Solo at all.

@motherofpearl1 - not for nothing Kasdan kept quoting Kurosawa about the heroes being in flux while the villains are fixed. That was about Han and the final choice he made to reach out to Ben and how it's meant to demonstrate his love/save him. You wanna get silly, he's more Space Jesus than Obi-Wan ever will be.

And it's never been a manner of if Han got killed by somebody else, it's just been a manner of when. He spends the OT outrunning his recklessness and could've been killed by various bounty hunters or Jabba. The only thing that makes a difference is meeting Obi-Wan (which is why his son is named Ben) and then Leia in turn. Hell, Leia brutally strangles Jabba and their new family blows up his operation. Same with the ST, showing him still being reckless, making bad deals with dangerous people, and having people coming after him to collect in blood. If it hadn't been for meeting Rey (who literally meets his son because Han takes her to Takodana), he would've been murdered by one of the two gangs he tried to cheat instead of being reunited with Leia. So yeah, sad what happened to him. But he would've been dead a lot earlier and under much more short, nasty, brutish circumstances that would've likely contributed to his son's further spiral under Snoke's control.

Well episode 8 even haven't come out so it hard to predict what would happen to Ben after he redeemed himself. I have feeling they might make him to do some service to the society. Better use him than punish/kill him you know

I think there is significance in the fact that the galaxy at large does not know Kylo Ren is Ben Solo, and most people would not recognize him on sight since he keeps his face hidden behind a mask. In other words, Ben would not necessarily be hunted and forced into exile should he choose to desert the First Order. The galaxy thinks he went missing at the same time as Luke:



Denying Ben any possibility of a happy ending because he killed Han Solo would be redundant and tragic, in my opinion. This need for further punishment seems to be stemming from the anger of the audience, not the characters themselves. Han has forgiven him, and he has already been punished by Chewie and Rey, who both stopped short of actually killing him. In spite of what he did, they do not want him dead.

There is this assumption going around that Rey cannot have romantic ties with the man who killed Han Solo. The Force has already spoken to the contrary. These two characters have intertwined destinies, a mysterious and strange connection. Their futures lie together in a single, shared path. How they feel toward each other will mean everything moving forward.

If Rey has dark origins, with her family actually responsible for Snoke coming into power, I cannot see her staying angry with Kylo, especially if she knows he is remorseful and does not want to continue down the dark path. It would emotionally injure her to find out what her parents have done, and she'd stop at nothing to save Ben and destroy Snoke. This is why the revelation of their backstories will be important, as they are possibly interlinked in a very direct way.

With Rey developing an understanding and compassion for Kylo through learning his backstory, as well as their sharing of a potential Force bond, romance can grow between them in a very natural way. I do not see it being one-sided. Rey was already interested in Kylo before she ever met him. We see her look of awe as Han describes the actions of "one boy", and she is described as being "curious" about him in the script when he first unmasks for her.

Kylo is the last Skywalker as well, so the line must continue if the films will stay centered on the Skywalker family. What Rey wants most is a family, and her belonging lies ahead. Had Rey been younger, a child, then adoption might have been an option. But she's 19 in tfa, a grown woman, and that is old enough to start a family of her own. I don't mean having children right away, but marriage is a definite possibility as I see it.

this is honestly iconic.

Helix wrote:this is honestly iconic.

@Helix

You see, this makes me appreciate Darth Vader even more. He just froze Han in carbonite.

What a guy. He's so inspirational.

Helix wrote:this is honestly iconic.

@Helix

Vader only killed kids, which is totally fine. At least it wasn't Han Solo!

Helix wrote:Vader only killed kids, which is totally fine. At least it wasn't Han Solo!

@Helix

Younglings? What younglings? Are they Luke's kids?

Oh, they're not Luke's kids. Doesn't matter. Kyle Ron's still evil lolol.

Irina de France wrote:

Helix wrote:this is honestly iconic.

@Helix

You see, this makes me appreciate Darth Vader even more. He just froze Han in carbonite.

What a guy. He's so inspirational.

@Irina de France
I'm trying to imagine that family therapist who'd have to facilitate the session where Leia (while Han probably sits there with his arms crossed being quiet and uncomfortable as hell) Ben that not only was mom unaware that grandpa wasn't just some horrible a**hole but her biodad, but that her biodad froze dad in the early days of when they first started dated. And then eventually mom tracked him down, murdered the guy dad owed money to, and found out that your uncle wasn't the guy she'd kissed to make dad jealous, but also her twin brother.

snufkin wrote:

Irina de France wrote:

Helix wrote:this is honestly iconic.

@Helix

You see, this makes me appreciate Darth Vader even more. He just froze Han in carbonite.

What a guy. He's so inspirational.

@Irina de France
I'm trying to imagine that family therapist who'd have to facilitate the session where Leia (while Han probably sits there with his arms crossed being quiet and uncomfortable as hell) Ben that not only was mom unaware that grandpa wasn't just some horrible a**hole but her biodad, but that her biodad froze dad in the early days of when they first started dated. And then eventually mom tracked him down, murdered the guy dad owed money to, and found out that your uncle wasn't the guy she'd kissed to make dad jealous, but also her twin brother.

@snufkin
See, now you're making me conjure up images of Luke telling Ben that he kissed his twin sister a.k.a. Ben's mom. Seems 100x more disturbing in that light. Yikes. I would have fallen to the dark side too.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Speaking of it:



there is nothing holy left, lol

You gotta wonder if Carrie were still alive, would she have roasted George's a** on that detail during the 40th anniversary panel. Or at least, with all of his going back and changing things for the Special Edition versions of the OT, why did he leave that detail alone? Geez, no wonder Ben fell to the DS indeed.

snufkin wrote:TBH I find the debate about how post-villain, atonement/redemption life somehow precludes a happy ending for Rey or her getting to be an adult to be as tedious as the hairsplitting that happens over Rey genealogy threads. They've already depicted Leia as wanting him back and in the published material as loving/cherishing him. If there's any one rule in Star Wars, it's that Leia's the smartest character and if she wants something, she always gets it. As for the ending, they could very well be like Jane Eyre and Rochester, tested by fire and bound together by an invisible string. Or given the references to the Jidaigeki/Chanbara genre, it may be like the original proposed ending for the OT of wandering off as ronin samurai. But otherwise, it's a fairy tale and for two characters who are depicted as starved of love, understanding, and companionship, it doesn't feel plausible (and overly cruel) to split them apart. And from what's been said by Harrison Ford and Lawrence Kasdan, you get the sense that what they intended is that the act becomes transcendental and Han literally sacrificing himself to save the child he loved. THere will likely be audience members who'll continue to be mad about what happened, but it's hard to see how anybody could have a greater investment/understanding of that character and what the meaning is than the actor and writer who've lived with him for over 40 years.

@snufkin

Fair enough. But "Leia really wanted her son back" and "Han sacrificed himself to save his child" are not necessarily persuasive arguments, for me. And I also don't find some of the discussions on this forum very interesting.