Why did Kylo step back?

Why did Kylo take a step back when Han approached him on the bridge? Any ideas?

Ah, you mean this?



My thought when I first noticed this was that Kylo was subconsciously expecting a blow and his body kind of flinches back. The movement looks like it's meant to seem automatic, involuntary. That was my first impression anyway. I have no idea why he would expect to get hit. Maybe it's his own guilty conscience projecting itself in that moment. But then it's like he realizes that's not the case and lets his father approach him. And later, as we know, he does get hit (by the bowcaster bolt) which he was unprepared for/not expecting.

Went back to watch the scene. From what I gather, he hasn't seen his father in a really long time and Han approaching him makes him feel uncomfortable since the last time he saw him he was still Ben and most likely had been very let down by Han so he's keeping his distance. The shadow that casts half his face when he steps back may indicate that as long as he stays away from his loved ones the dark side will loom over him. Kinda ties in with what Adam said at some point that Kylo's abandonment issues have played into his whole path to the dark side.

A big part of Kylo's training under Snoke has been about preventing him from feeling any emotion, according to the novelization. We know this hasn't been particularly effective, but I imagine that eschewing physical touch is a big part of that. When his father steps toward him, he could be flinching as if he thinks Han will try to touch him and drag up all these childhood memories. Happy memories that make him feel even more conflicted and that he should just go home.

When he kills Han and feels his father's hand on his face, you can see that is a big moment. It must be the first time another person has touched him in a long time. He has no friends in the FO and only Vader's helmet to talk to. The only person he seems to be drawn towards is Rey.

These few seconds just *got* me. The look on Kylo's face is so wary; he looks like a cornered animal. In no way do I think Han ever abused Kylo, but I think he's acting like an abuse survivor might act.

Wheels within wheels, this movie is...

To me it looks like a behavior of a child who done some wrongdoing and now being confronted by his parents. Kylo even said earlier in the movie that he feels conflicted which is also like a child who is caught in between to option of do or do not. Snoke is the outside factor that keeps having this bad influence on Kylo just like some kids who go against their parents in for a short period of time before they realize their mistakes due to misleading

Slade wrote:These few seconds just *got* me. The look on Kylo's face is so wary; he looks like a cornered animal. In no way do I think Han ever abused Kylo, but I think he's acting like an abuse survivor might act.

Wheels within wheels, this movie is...

@Slade

@Macha Ren has a very interesting theory that Snoke manipulated his mind to such an extent that Kylo actually "remembers" Han hurting him. That's just the kind of thing that could turn the GA audience around, because he would become such a tragic figure. And actually it would make a lot of sense for Snoke to do something just like that, to make Ben feel alone, to make Snoke look like the only "truthteller" or even a "savior" figure at some earlier point. I think by the time of TFA Kylo has decent awareness that Snoke is bad news, but if @Macha Ren is right, he will not know what to believe, because his memories are telling him one thing, but his instincts at that moment with Han are telling him another.

Oh, that's right! Kind of like the "recovered memories of satanic abuse " mess in the '80s in the US.

All of the above, likely a combination of the sad/strained relationship he and Han had as parent/child and also whatever 'training' he's had at Snoke's hands. His whole persona is about suppressing the person underneath.

Maybe also again with the contrast in his interaction with two different characters- how he behaves for physical space/interaction with Han versus how he gets right up into Rey's personal space.

snufkin wrote:All of the above, likely a combination of the sad/strained relationship he and Han had as parent/child and also whatever 'training' he's had at Snoke's hands. His whole persona is about suppressing the person underneath.

Maybe also again with the contrast in his interaction with two different characters- how he behaves for physical space/interaction with Han versus how he gets right up into Rey's personal space.

@snufkin

I agree with all of this.

On the first bolded, I completely agree. I see Kylo Ren as actually both suppressor *and* protector of the supposedly "weak" (which I think IMO = sensitive) Ben Solo. Kathleen Kennedy said something in the documentary that Kylo/Ben feels "more powerful" in the mask. I believe that they are the same person essentially, but that Ben only has the confidence and/or ability to do certain things while in the Kylo guise, but at the same time, because while in that guise, he forces down his emotional side, which is harmful because it's pushing down his soul, but maybe also protective in a dysfunctional way because Kylo almost "protects" the more fragile Ben while in the terrible environment of the FO. Maybe I have watched too many soap operas, but it's like Kylo was almost a persona Ben created to be able to withstand his life with Snoke.

I am not making myself very clear. Maybe someone will get what I am trying to say and say it better. :-)

On the second bolded, this is an excellent point. Kylo is not physically submissive to anyone except Han and Snoke for most of the movie. (At the end he is in a very submissive position with Rey, but that's for different reasons). However, even with Snoke, he doesn't have that "step back, wary, cornered animal" thing. He's submissive, but there is an element of the complaining teenage son with Snoke. "I can do it with your guidance," etc. He doesn't push it too hard, and we know from the Vader conversation and all the Snoke interactions ("He (Han) means nothing to me.") that he does try to BS or "work" or hide things from Snoke.

If you really think about it, his body jerks when he hears Han's voice, and he goes right into high-defensive mode until Han wears him down. Now the defensive mode could be "Get the h*** away Dad so I don't have to kill you" or it could be he is actually fearful of Han ... which could be because (1) he thinks Han will get to the conscience beneath and he'll crumble and not complete his mission or whatever -or- (2) he's actually afraid of Han for some reason.

I don't know. You are right @slade. There are layers upon layers in that scene. All I know is that AD didn't do that "step back" for no reason. There *is* a meaning to it.

Sylvia Snow wrote:To me it looks like a behavior of a child who done some wrongdoing and now being confronted by his parents. Kylo even said earlier in the movie that he feels conflicted which is also like a child who is caught in between to option of do or do not. Snoke is the outside factor that keeps having this bad influence on Kylo just like some kids who go against their parents in for a short period of time before they realize their mistakes due to misleading

@Sylvia Snow

This sums it up best IMO.  Kylo is an adult age wise but emotionally he is still a kid.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:All of the above, likely a combination of the sad/strained relationship he and Han had as parent/child and also whatever 'training' he's had at Snoke's hands. His whole persona is about suppressing the person underneath.

Maybe also again with the contrast in his interaction with two different characters- how he behaves for physical space/interaction with Han versus how he gets right up into Rey's personal space.

@snufkin

I agree with all of this.

On the first bolded, I completely agree. I see Kylo Ren as actually both suppressor *and* protector of the supposedly "weak" (which I think IMO = sensitive) Ben Solo. Kathleen Kennedy said something in the documentary that Kylo/Ben feels "more powerful" in the mask. I believe that they are the same person essentially, but that Ben only has the confidence and/or ability to do certain things while in the Kylo guise, but at the same time, because while in that guise, he forces down his emotional side, which is harmful because it's pushing down his soul, but maybe also protective in a dysfunctional way because Kylo almost "protects" the more fragile Ben while in the terrible environment of the FO. Maybe I have watched too many soap operas, but it's like Kylo was almost a persona Ben created to be able to withstand his life with Snoke.

I am not making myself very clear. Maybe someone will get what I am trying to say and say it better. :-)

On the second bolded, this is an excellent point. Kylo is not physically submissive to anyone except Han and Snoke for most of the movie. (At the end he is in a very submissive position with Rey, but that's for different reasons). However, even with Snoke, he doesn't have that "step back, wary, cornered animal" thing. He's submissive, but there is an element of the complaining teenage son with Snoke. "I can do it with your guidance," etc. He doesn't push it too hard, and we know from the Vader conversation and all the Snoke interactions ("He (Han) means nothing to me.") that he does try to BS or "work" or hide things from Snoke.

If you really think about it, his body jerks when he hears Han's voice, and he goes right into high-defensive mode until Han wears him down. Now the defensive mode could be "Get the h*** away Dad so I don't have to kill you" or it could be he is actually fearful of Han ... which could be because (1) he thinks Han will get to the conscience beneath and he'll crumble and not complete his mission or whatever -or- (2) he's actually afraid of Han for some reason.

I don't know. You are right @slade. There are layers upon layers in that scene. All I know is that AD didn't do that "step back" for no reason. There *is* a meaning to it.

@SoloSideCousin

I agree with much of this. Well noticed that when he hears Han, he stops and shakes slightly. Is he afraid of loving his father? Is he afraid of the pull to the light? Or is he afraid of Han?

And yes, I agree Snoke could have manipulated Ben to hate his parents, I know children can have false memories, but it might be too dark for SW.

I also agree he looks like a child who did something wrong, or a child defying his parents. His facial expression is perfect. My son does the exact same expression when he's afraid I'll be angry, and later, when he feels sad but defiant. I can't quite explain what it is in the expression. It seems very realistic.

{@=11}SoloSideCousin{/@} -id='11' class='mentiontag' title='Viewing profile: SoloSideCousin'>@SoloSideCousin [/mention] wrote:
@snufkin

I agree with all of this.  

On the first bolded, I completely agree.  I see Kylo Ren as actually both suppressor *and* protector of the supposedly "weak" (which I think IMO = sensitive) Ben Solo.  Kathleen Kennedy said something in the documentary that Kylo/Ben feels "more powerful" in the mask.  I believe that they are the same person essentially, but that Ben only has the confidence and/or ability to do certain things while in the Kylo guise, but at the same time, because while in that guise, he forces down his emotional side, which is harmful because it's pushing down his soul, but maybe also protective in a dysfunctional way because Kylo almost "protects" the more fragile Ben while in the terrible environment of the FO.  Maybe I have watched too many soap operas, but it's like Kylo was almost a persona Ben created to be able to withstand his life with Snoke.

I am not making myself very clear.  Maybe someone will get what I am trying to say and say it better. :-)

On the second bolded, this is an excellent point. Kylo is not physically submissive to anyone except Han and Snoke for most of the movie. (At the end he is in a very submissive position with Rey, but that's for different reasons). However, even with Snoke, he doesn't have that "step back, wary, cornered animal" thing.  He's submissive, but there is an element of the complaining teenage son with Snoke.  "I can do it with your guidance," etc.  He doesn't push it too hard, and we know from the Vader conversation and all the Snoke interactions ("He (Han) means nothing to me.") that he does try to BS or "work" or hide things from Snoke.

If you really think about it, his body jerks when he hears Han's voice, and he goes right into high-defensive mode until Han wears him down.  Now the defensive mode could be "Get the h*** away Dad so I don't have to kill you" or it could be he is actually fearful of Han ... which could be because (1) he thinks Han will get to the conscience beneath and he'll crumble and not complete his mission or whatever -or- (2) he's actually afraid of Han for some reason.

I don't know.  You are right @slade.  There are layers upon layers in that scene.  All I know is that AD didn't do that "step back" for no reason. There *is* a meaning to it.

@SoloSideCousin

The thing with Han (and that a lot of the "I hate him b/c he killed the coolest dude in the galaxy" contingent) is that how somebody's parent behaves with other people versus their kid can be too different things. It's a pretty typical thing in parent-child relationships to have outsiders perceive a parent you don't always gets along with as being a great person b/c they only get to see the positive side and don't have the baggage inherit to a family member. Which is kind of his snide comment to Rey about how Han would've disappointed her.  Clearly something went on between him and Ben that rests on Han's shoulders (why else would he say things like "too much Vader in him," "we lost him for good" and avoiding Leia b/c "I remind you of him"), which made it easier for Snoke to manipulate Ben. And reaching to him at the end was a pretty major/vulnerable thing for Han to do - Leia and Maz (women always figure out the truth) put it to him point blank, but even if it's too little too late, he has to feel the responsibility for them being at that point.

As for the mask persona, again it's there with the dialogue of you don't need it and feeling like he destroyed his former self  (the Solo side) for being foolish and weak. It's very much a guise he's adopted to hide behind because of his feelings of emotional/FS weakness. Will be interesting to see how much of who Ben was gets covered in the next movie. Others have said it here, but the scenes with Rey are very much that it's Ben who's responding to her, coming out in their interactions, and whose attraction to her is very much driving his actions/derailing the FO mission he's supposed to be operating under.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:All of the above, likely a combination of the sad/strained relationship he and Han had as parent/child and also whatever 'training' he's had at Snoke's hands. His whole persona is about suppressing the person underneath.

Maybe also again with the contrast in his interaction with two different characters- how he behaves for physical space/interaction with Han versus how he gets right up into Rey's personal space.

@snufkin

I agree with all of this.  

On the first bolded, I completely agree.  I see Kylo Ren as actually both suppressor *and* protector of the supposedly "weak" (which I think IMO = sensitive) Ben Solo. Kathleen Kennedy said something in the documentary that Kylo/Ben feels "more powerful" in the mask.  I believe that they are the same person essentially, but that Ben only has the confidence and/or ability to do certain things while in the Kylo guise, but at the same time, because while in that guise, he forces down his emotional side, which is harmful because it's pushing down his soul, but maybe also protective in a dysfunctional way because Kylo almost "protects" the more fragile Ben while in the terrible environment of the FO.  Maybe I have watched too many soap operas, but it's like Kylo was almost a persona Ben created to be able to withstand his life with Snoke.

I am not making myself very clear.  Maybe someone will get what I am trying to say and say it better. :-)

On the second bolded, this is an excellent point. Kylo is not physically submissive to anyone except Han and Snoke for most of the movie. (At the end he is in a very submissive position with Rey, but that's for different reasons). However, even with Snoke, he doesn't have that "step back, wary, cornered animal" thing.  He's submissive, but there is an element of the complaining teenage son with Snoke.  "I can do it with your guidance," etc.  He doesn't push it too hard, and we know from the Vader conversation and all the Snoke interactions ("He (Han) means nothing to me.") that he does try to BS or "work" or hide things from Snoke.

If you really think about it, his body jerks when he hears Han's voice, and he goes right into high-defensive mode until Han wears him down.  Now the defensive mode could be "Get the h*** away Dad so I don't have to kill you" or it could be he is actually fearful of Han ... which could be because (1) he thinks Han will get to the conscience beneath and he'll crumble and not complete his mission or whatever -or- (2) he's actually afraid of Han for some reason.

I don't know.  You are right @slade.  There are layers upon layers in that scene.  All I know is that AD didn't do that "step back" for no reason. There *is* a meaning to it.

@SoloSideCousin

(cracks knuckles and dives in)  Good stuff, ^^^up there^^^, that's good stuff!  I thought of something interesting when I read that first bolded part.  Ok, I am not a mental health professional, so this is coming from a fairly well-read layperson:  what if, rather than being a persona that Ben takes on and puts off at will, what if Kylo is actually a different ego state?  I am not talking about multiple personalities, exactly.  But in some traumatized people, a part of the personality can splinter into a sub personality (as opposed to completely different, independently functioning other personality).  I've read of traumatized people having a sub personality (for lack of a better word) they call "the Guardian" or "the Protector" or some such, and its job is to act as a protector to the main personality.  This sub personality emerges when the person is somehow threatened, or feels threatened. The main personality *is* aware of the sub, and is aware of what happens when the sub takes the reins, but only vaguely.

The way SoloSideCousin described it, it sounds like that is how "Kylo" functions.  I've thought from the beginning that someone involved in the scriptwriting and directing has a keen understanding of human psychology, and the first thing that made me think that was Kylo's self-injury in the snowy forest. As an aside, I see people worrying that The Mouse won't "go there" with various potential plot points in ep 8, but I think they may surprise us.  I mean, patricide of Han and self injury, with blood, on screen?  I think that's major.  And gutsy of them.  

Regarding the second highlighted part, I also noticed that Kylo is all bluster and rehearsed lines "I've waited for this moment..." (kudos to Driver for making Kylo sound like a bad actor reciting a memorized line!), but from the minute he takes that helmet off, he just starts dissolving.  I think Kylo desperately wants...something...with Han (love, acceptance, to go home), as shown by his quivering voice and teary eyes.  It's just so majestically played.

It is also interesting that when Han actually does reach out and touch him, not only does Kylo not flinch, he stands there and lets Han do it.  Interesting.

Have a clicky link: https://worthit2bme.com/2014/10/04/healing-dissociation-and-ego-states/

@Snufkin

As Snufkin mentioned upthread, outsiders don't often see that how a parent treats his kid can be different from how he treats other people. But if we go look back in the OT, Han very often is abrasive, arrogant, argumentative, self-centered, and extremely rude to those around him (on Hoth, at Mos Eisley, to droids, to Leia). He is also a criminal, so obviously he doesn't hold himself to the social and legal rules that many of the people around him do. So I'm not buying that Han was a great guy to non family. Honestly, I see him treating a young child the way he treats droids (rudely telling BB8 "move, ball", ignoring 3PO in the OT, eye-rolling, etc).

Slade wrote:@Snufkin

As Snufkin mentioned upthread, outsiders don't often see that how a parent treats his kid can be different from how he treats other people. But if we go look back in the OT, Han very often is abrasive, arrogant, argumentative, self-centered, and extremely rude to those around him (on Hoth, at Mos Eisley, to droids, to Leia). He is also a criminal, so obviously he doesn't hold himself to the social and legal rules that many of the people around him do. So I'm not buying that Han was a great guy to non family. Honestly, I see him treating a young child the way he treats droids (rudely telling BB8 "move, ball", ignoring 3PO in the OT, eye-rolling, etc).

@Slade

Even if he's being an a** about it, that's kind of my impression when Ben/Kylo tells Rey that even if she's already started to think of him as a father figure, Han would've disappointed her.

You know, it's funny that when Han offers Rey a job, he flat out tells her "I wouldn't be nice to you."

You kind of think all of this means that Harrison Ford will have to be back in the next movie to give the full backstory of what happened to make Ben fall to the DS and how that fed off of his feelings of abandonment from his parents. Especially to give context to why Snoke pushed him in the direction of killing Han. I'd be really surprised if they didn't include some examples of Han's less than stellar parenting in either a flashback or even if it's Ben being subjected to Han and Leia yelling at each other (which it sounds like it happened often) in another room w/out taking into account that he can hear everything.

Slade wrote:You know, it's funny that when Han offers Rey a job, he flat out tells her "I wouldn't be nice to you."

@Slade

He's not even that concerned when she's kidnapped and his whole "you okay?" comment is the extent of him showing concern.

Slade wrote:@Snufkin

As Snufkin mentioned upthread, outsiders don't often see that how a parent treats his kid can be different from how he treats other people.  But if we go look back in the OT, Han very often is abrasive, arrogant, argumentative, self-centered,  and extremely rude to those around him (on Hoth, at Mos Eisley, to droids, to Leia).  He is also a criminal, so obviously he doesn't hold himself to the social and legal rules that many of the people around him do.  So I'm not buying that Han was a great guy to non family.  Honestly, I see him treating a young child the way he treats droids (rudely telling BB8 "move, ball", ignoring 3PO in the OT, eye-rolling, etc).

@Slade

[quote="snufkin"][quote="Slade"]@Snufkin

Even if he's being an a** about it, that's kind of my impression when Ben/Kylo tells Rey that even if she's already started to think of him as a father figure, Han would've disappointed her.  

@snufkin

I've always loved Han, but part of his charm in a weird way was how he could be kind of a jacka**.  He was the more "real-guy"/ "What the he** is this Force crap?" antidote to the Leia's super princess and Luke's Jedi wunderkind.  But at the same time, I completely agree, he can be extremely protective to those he loves, but his patience is thing and he gives you no impression whatsoever that he was capable of turning into Alex P. Keaton's dad or Marty Crane with Niles and Frasier, lol.  And I bring up those sitcom examples because you get the schtick of how fathers deal with their very different sons.  I don't think Han would be anywhere near as successful at bridging that gap with Ben.  In fact, if either of you read Bloodline, he and Leia are still fun and adventurous, but they have not morphed into "parental types" at all.  They actually really seem like that great couple that never should have had kids.  JJ intimated as much during the documentary, saying that Han and Leia were great, but they were volatile ... and the problem was "they had this kid ... and he is broken."

I think it might have been better if Han had a non-FS kid who saw the world the same way he did, but he didn't, and he couldn't deal IMO.  He had a kid who not only seems like he is a force prodigy, but AD's performance also gives the impression that Ben is extremely emotionally sensitive.  (I will address the dissociative issue in another post @slade ... I am very interested in checking out that article).  Han and Leia are kind of anything, but sensitive.  The phrase "tough as nails" comes to mind for them.  That phrase does not come to mind for even an unmasked Kylo Ren.

And maybe this is just me pulling ideas out of my butt, but I wonder if the fact that Kylo/Ben seems to be so incredibly gifted in his mind-reading is also a huge clue, beyond AD's watery eyes and anguished looks, that Kylo/Ben's emotional sensitivity might be off the charts.  To be able to pick that much up indicates a serious empath level of hyper-sensitivity for emotions and that would in turn indicate an ability to not just feel things almost imperceptible in others, but also in himself.  That kind of sensitivity could be crushing, especially if he could sense his father's and mother's every little annoyance even when his parents were barely aware of it themselves.  Maybe that's why he started to ease with Han at some point on the bridge, because this time, for once, he could feel the raw honesty and love, but then the guardian (Kylo) or Snoke or whatever, stepped in and made him do what he didn't want to do when he handed over the lightsaber.

On Kylo warning Rey off of Han, despite the setting, I think he actually meant it in as empathetic a way as possible given that he was in mind-reading mode, almost like a "Don't let that jacka** take you down the primrose path like he did with me."  I think he was quite irritated that she thought so much of Han, but if he didn't have any empathy about it, he might have just been cutting and said, "You're an idiot if you think that guy is worth anything."  Instead he said, "disappointed," like she was worth enough to not be disappointed, like he saw her as better than Han Solo.

snufkin wrote:You kind of think all of this means that Harrison Ford will have to be back in the next movie to give the full backstory of what happened to make Ben fall to the DS and how that fed off of his feelings of abandonment from his parents. Especially to give context to why Snoke pushed him in the direction of killing Han. I'd be really surprised if they didn't include some examples of Han's less than stellar parenting in either a flashback or even if it's Ben being subjected to Han and Leia yelling at each other (which it sounds like it happened often) in another room w/out taking into account that he can hear everything.

Slade wrote:You know, it's funny that when Han offers Rey a job, he flat out tells her "I wouldn't be nice to you."

@Slade

He's not even that concerned when she's kidnapped and his whole "you okay?" comment is the extent of him showing concern.

@snufkin

Harrison Ford has been cryptic about Han in interviews, saying that Han is "just sleeping." I do think that Han is really dead, but I would not be surprised one bit if they secretly filmed some flashback scenes with Han ... particularly if Harrison just did a voice over of a blurry scene from far in the past in childhood. Something like that would make a huge impact for the audience IMO.

I'm under the impression something like that is happening; I am under the belief that Harrison F. has something to do with E8.
Yes, I've been taking it for granted that Kylo is an empath. I don't know if it matters or not, but a lot of empaths don't realize for a very long time that many people are *not* like them. They think everyone can sense emotion, motivation, etc in other people.

snufkin wrote:You kind of think all of this means that Harrison Ford will have to be back in the next movie to give the full backstory of what happened to make Ben fall to the DS and how that fed off of his feelings of abandonment from his parents. Especially to give context to why Snoke pushed him in the direction of killing Han. I'd be really surprised if they didn't include some examples of Han's less than stellar parenting in either a flashback or even if it's Ben being subjected to Han and Leia yelling at each other (which it sounds like it happened often) in another room w/out taking into account that he can hear everything.

Slade wrote:You know, it's funny that when Han offers Rey a job, he flat out tells her "I wouldn't be nice to you."

@Slade

He's not even that concerned when she's kidnapped and his whole "you okay?" comment is the extent of him showing concern.

@snufkin

He literally kind of waves Finn off when Finn tells him she's been kidnapped (I mean, Han saw it, but still). He also didn't have a problem blowing up skb, which had Rey and Kylo on it.

I just watched the cantina scene from ANH again and noticed something. The last thing Greedo says before Han shoots him is "I've been looking forward to this for a long time."

Interesting, that.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:You kind of think all of this means that Harrison Ford will have to be back in the next movie to give the full backstory of what happened to make Ben fall to the DS and how that fed off of his feelings of abandonment from his parents. Especially to give context to why Snoke pushed him in the direction of killing Han. I'd be really surprised if they didn't include some examples of Han's less than stellar parenting in either a flashback or even if it's Ben being subjected to Han and Leia yelling at each other (which it sounds like it happened often) in another room w/out taking into account that he can hear everything.

Slade wrote:You know, it's funny that when Han offers Rey a job, he flat out tells her "I wouldn't be nice to you."

@Slade

He's not even that concerned when she's kidnapped and his whole "you okay?" comment is the extent of him showing concern.

@snufkin

Harrison Ford has been cryptic about Han in interviews, saying that Han is "just sleeping." I do think that Han is really dead, but I would not be surprised one bit if they secretly filmed some flashback scenes with Han ... particularly if Harrison just did a voice over of a blurry scene from far in the past in childhood. Something like that would make a huge impact for the audience IMO.

@SoloSideCousin

Well, that's weird. Ford was referring to what Han is doing right now? Or what han was doing while Kylo was growing up?

Slade wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

snufkin wrote:You kind of think all of this means that Harrison Ford will have to be back in the next movie to give the full backstory of what happened to make Ben fall to the DS and how that fed off of his feelings of abandonment from his parents. Especially to give context to why Snoke pushed him in the direction of killing Han. I'd be really surprised if they didn't include some examples of Han's less than stellar parenting in either a flashback or even if it's Ben being subjected to Han and Leia yelling at each other (which it sounds like it happened often) in another room w/out taking into account that he can hear everything.

Slade wrote:You know, it's funny that when Han offers Rey a job, he flat out tells her "I wouldn't be nice to you."

@Slade

He's not even that concerned when she's kidnapped and his whole "you okay?" comment is the extent of him showing concern.

@snufkin

Harrison Ford has been cryptic about Han in interviews, saying that Han is "just sleeping." I do think that Han is really dead, but I would not be surprised one bit if they secretly filmed some flashback scenes with Han ... particularly if Harrison just did a voice over of a blurry scene from far in the past in childhood. Something like that would make a huge impact for the audience IMO.

@SoloSideCousin

Well, that's weird. Ford was referring to what Han is doing right now? Or what han was doing while Kylo was growing up?

@Slade

If they're going the route of showing what Rey accessed his memories as part of becoming more sympathetic, some of that has to be whatever happened with his parents. And the confrontation/murder with Han is just to major to not go back and address what led them to that tragedy, even if it's a brief flashback/off screen voice.