Kylo as a dark witch or god of the underworld?

guardienne wrote:i remember @panki discussing hindu gods wrt kylo and rey. i can't remember all the stuff.

but i loved that even before ashgate people were coming up with ashes-related meta.

Thanks @guardienne .... this might sound silly but I almost forgot that old post

I had written about Yin and Yang in Hindu Mythology, and how it could apply to Rey and Kylo...here is the link:
http://reylo.skyforum.net/t63-star-wars-yin-and-yang-philosophy-and-mythology#2818

@Darth Dingbat had also given a link to a really good discussion on Indian mythology, Rey and Kylo...
http://peace-passion-reylo.tumblr.com/post/139940149973/kylo-ren-fire-and-ash

oh the fun we used to have @panki i would bait you with mythology and you'd do all the work!

i'm also thinking if i had time, i would revive the whole arthurian legend references thing wrt TFA. but i don't even know the arthurian legend stuff properly.

guardienne wrote:an essay on the liminality of the ashitaka character in princess mononoke: https://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/Vol8No1/BetweenWorlds.htm

i'm sort of overlaying kylo and ashitaka a lot *sigh* it doesn't quite work but it does in my head (trust me) and i think comparing them is an interesting exercise.

@guardienne

Wow - so I'm not the only one !

yay @motherofpearl1 it's just us now!

it just looks so obvious to me! he falls for her so readily. i think the line as she tops him and threatens to kill him is something like, 'you're so cute when you're angry'? like, how much is that like kylo? it's almost uncanny!

and she's so savage! he's such a gentleman! it's perfect! i can't wait for them to inherit the world. and kill all the old gods (maybe not all of them)

@guardienne In the Ahsoka panel, Dave Filoni actually said that Ahsoka was based on Princess Mononoke! Which is cool. I can see similarities in Ahsoka and San and Rey. I feel like there are parallels to be drawn between Ahsoka and Anakin and Rey and Kylo Ren and San and Ashitaka, as well.

However, I think the difficulty with comparing the two movies also comes from Princess Mononoke not having black/white morality, while Star Wars definitely does. Neither San nor Lady Eboshi is "evil" and Ashitaka is truly in the middle of the conflict.

I also feel like Kylo Ren is also like San, and Rey is also like Ashitaka. San wants to deny her humanity, and become a wolf, kind of like how Kylo wants to deny his old self and family, and become a "monster." I also think Rey is going to play mediator between sides far more than Kylo Ren will. Though I can see them both mediating. But I think Rey will be more the special chosen one who has the power to stop the war.

I also wonder if maybe Finn could be more of an Ashitaka character? He is also in between two sides and has the power to mediate, probably more so than Kylo Ren or Rey in a lot of ways. It depends on what they do with his character moving forward.

Maybe the Lady Eboshi, San, and Ashitaka dynamic mirrors the Finn, Rey, Kylo dynamic. It was important that the battle was between Lady Eboshi and Princess Mononoke, and Ashitaka could talk and mediate with both sides. I feel like all the character dynamics get so mixed up that no parallels can be directly drawn. I think all three characters have parallels to all the other three. Maybe they will move more clearly into place as the story progresses, but the scene with Finn, Rey, and Kylo in the snow really showed all of them being sort of in-between two sides, all of them having that liminality.

When you say "kill all the old gods" are you drawing a parallel to mononoke? Cause I thought they were trying to stop Lady Eboshi from killing the gods? Maybe I didn't understand.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

guardienne wrote:an essay on the liminality of the ashitaka character in princess mononoke: https://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/Vol8No1/BetweenWorlds.htm

i'm sort of overlaying kylo and ashitaka a lot *sigh* it doesn't quite work but it does in my head (trust me) and i think comparing them is an interesting exercise.

@guardienne

Wow - so I'm not the only one !

@motherofpearl1

Daisy Ridley is a huge Ghibli fan and besides doing the lead English voicework for Just Yesterday has talked up Miyazaki's films a lot in interviews, plus Rey's introduction is an homage to Nausicca. The parallels are there for a reason.

That moment when you realize J.J. Abrams loves Miyazaki too. pic.twitter.com/sTplSUfm2i

— LeSean Thomas (@LeSeanThomas) July 16, 2016

@jakkusun

some very good points there.

you are right it's not a direct overlay, it's a different thing. but it's still working in my mind, i can't explain it very well. ashitaka is cursed and has to learn to control his temper because he's become super-destructive? and he's an outcast from his community? (this bit seems so cruel to me).

and you are right they are trying to prevent the destruction of the gods. i think when i wrote this i meant something about how they usher in a new era. in a way, i'm going to have to be very vague because i'm not sure, i think you have to destroy your gods in order to become one yourself? there is something about destroying the old order and i think in a way the forest god dying is doing exactly that. it's a new secular era.

so, san and ashitaka aren't directly responsible for this, but this is the inheritance from the conflict. and it's sad but it's levelled the playing field as well.

I remember how unfair they were to Ashitaka as well; he did prosper in the end however, and found love somewhere else.

i think ashitaka took one for the team essentially. he prevents the destruction of his community, as far as i recall, and then he's being cast out. wtf?

if you read the essay i posted above, this is what makes him like christ. and i'm going to be serious about the inverted christ thing for kylo, or maybe i should just post a thread.... maybe this is about liminality. luke was never a liminal character, but anakin and kylo/ben are. that's what makes them interesting to me.

i'm going to dump this here even though it runs counter to the ghibli discussion...

The Left Hand Path

it's super interesting, though, in terms of the dark side:

The Left is Feminine, Lunar, and Sexual

Stan Gooch highlights the fact that in the vast majority of cultures, from every continent from Africa, Asia, Australasia, Europe and the Americas, the the "left" is normally associated with femininity and the "right" with masculinity. This is despite the fact that more males are left-handed, but let's not let mere facts interfere with the superstitious religions of the world, eh?! The reasons for this association are lost in time. Gooch points out that because the left hand is frequently weaker than the right that this might have lent itself to the comparison to womankind.

The left has also frequently been associated with the lunar sphere - therefore with the night, the bad and uncanny spirits of the world, and with devilry. Most religious traditions have involved either sun-worship or nature-cycle symbolism: The sun makes the crops grow and is good, and the moon represents dark, hard times, and is clearly Satanic.

"Tantra practitioner Dinu Roman writes, "Tantra is also called Vama Marga, i.e. The Left Hand Path, due to the fact that women, who are of lunar influence, negative polarity or the left, play an essential role in this science"3

A "left handed *****" was a Roman term for masturbation4. "Left" has had sexual connotations in many ancient cultures including Hindu and Buddhist thought.

a picture of Baphomet, a symbol of the feminine and masculine in LeVeyan Satanims because i just ran into this here:

http://ashesforfoxes.tumblr.com/post/149365333047/i-found-baphomet-through-wikihopping-and-what-i

So it’s the true wisdom of the elders, Luke, that will help her temper that newfound power. He’s dressed in gray because he is the Hermit but also because he has seen firsthand the effects of both sides of the Force. And yes, the Force is magic in it’s rawest sense but its also the basis for religions and the iconography of this galaxy. It’s important to note that just as in our world, the realization that things aren’t so simple is part of how these characters transcend from their prejudices to a more nuanced way of seeing the world. Rey and Kylo, and even Luke, all have much to learn–whether or not they accept it. Its what I’m looking forward to the most in the new trilogy.

The mystery rites, arcane knowledge, and “priestly” theme to Kylo and the Seven Light Knights of Ren is worth exploring–such that I believe the Knights Templar analogue is actually perfect. If we consider the origins and even the musical influences of our legacy character it makes sense that he would be the holy knight, drawn by what he might see as a religious crusade (or perhaps the “sangreal”). This crusade should then be revealed to be just as oppressive as the fanaticism it aims to confront–unable to accommodate the universal truths of love and family and the humanity of one’s enemies. At the very least, the holy knight archetype is doomed to temptation:

so i'm doing more random searching myself:

Fusion of the Opposites, Male and female, good and evil, night and day . This picture of the Masonic temple reveals the fusion and merging of opposites.Even the black and white checkered board floors is evident of this code(dark and light).They call this idea balancing the energies. Finding your balance (balancing evil, dark side with the good,light)

http://spiritspeakstruths.blogspot.de/2010_12_01_archive.html

My brother is interested in Wiccanism, and he's a strong believer in 'shades of grey' rather than 'good and evil'; and it's interesting that Luke is wearing grey.

I'm actually hoping to see a 'darker'version of Luke going forward and Mark is interested in this himself I believe.

http://millicentthecat.tumblr.com/post/152066597106/hiya-im-loving-your-dark-side-meta-posts-and-i

i'm not a pagan in any way so i can't judge whether the dark side is really strongly coded like this ... but anyway i love the sanctimonious comments in the book...

It's fascinating how anger is a 'path to the dark' yet a lot of people's lives have been saved by their anger...

I really hope the Grey Jedi code will be explored in future movies.

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's fascinating how anger is a 'path to the dark' yet a lot of people's lives have been saved by their anger...

I really hope the Grey Jedi code will be explored in future movies.

@motherofpearl1

I'm convinced balance is where they're going with this. Sith are the reptile brain, Jedi are the rational brain. You need both as well as the love inherent to the mammalian brain, but anger must be kept in check and used wisely. Neither of the opposites had it right. Kylo and Rey will be the New Jedi who find balance.