Re: Why do we care so much?

by SoloSideCousin Sun 03 Jul 2016, 7:47 pm

[quote="MeadowofAshes"]I was thinking this was a thread about why we're specifically invested in Kylo/Ben based on the first post, but I guess it's a lot more broad! Okay, so things that have me hooked on the ST as a whole...

TFA was gloriously written. They've really taken this franchise to a literary level. The metaphor, the foreshadowing, the lines that have multiple layers of subtext... It's all so intricately woven.

I want to see if I'm right about how Kylo/Ben and Rey's relationship will play out. I'm also highly invested in the mystery of their connection in general; are they just mysteriously drawn together by the Force or have they both seen each other in a vision? Was that lightsaber passed down to Ben Solo and did it also cause him to first encounter What Girl in a vision? And Rey... I also want to know if I'm right about her being Rey No One who was chosen by the Force because of who she is, and who she is alone (as opposed to being related to any big names) because she is the other side of Ben Solo's coin and has the capacity to bring him home.

Themes of light/truth/goodness shining through the lie of the darkness very much appeal to me.

I want to see further development of Finn and Ben as foils. I'm eager to see how his next encounter with the "traitor" goes, although I'm not expecting to see it until 9.

I adore Leia and I want to see her find peace.

We didn't get enough information for me to be deeply invested yet, but I'm interested in what 8 will deliver to us about the First Jedi Temple and the First Jedi in general.

I want to see Ben apologize to everyone. Not suffer, attempt to make amends. With Rey. Finn. Poe. His mother. His Uncle Luke. His Uncle Chewie. EVERYONE. I find it moving to watch very wrong characters realize they're wrong, admit they're wrong, and then seek to right that wrong to the best of their abilities. And then to see that character welcomed back to the fold even though they feel they don't deserve it. That's powerful to me.[/quote]
@MeadowofAshes

I agree with much of what you say here, but I like the bolded very much. I very much see Ben and his dark side immersion and his unsettled mental state to be very much like a heroin addict who is "in the disease." Addicts do a lot of bad things while "in the disease," but as many of us have seen with people we either know of or know, that when people beat back that addiction and/or get treatment for that behavior-distorting mental illness, the true soul emerges. That's why all this "keen mind and pluck" stuff and Ben being the apple of Leia's eye in Bloodline is very hopeful. It tells me he wasn't a totally natural jerk/bad/evil before he fell. There was a very worthy person there ... and if he can be brought "out of the disease", then that person can come to the surface again. He'll be guilty forever of course for the fall and what he did while fallen (it'll be interesting how much vulnerability vs. full choice they have him have for the actual point of the fall), but if he can come back and "12 step" this up for the rest of his life, which will be a struggle, that will be rewarding to watch.

by FrolickingFizzgig Sun 03 Jul 2016, 7:57 pm

I'm really expecting to see a mixture of emotional suffering and attempts to make amends, because don't they go together? I want the pain to come from how difficult it is, from realizing how many people he's hurt and how many mistakes he's made, from accepting that there is no burden that should be handled alone. Apologizing isn't going to be easy for Kylo. He'll have to prove himself every step of the way, and that is going to hurt him a great deal. I'm okay with Kylo angst. If I hated angsty anti-heroes I probably wouldn't enjoy Kylo as much as I do. xD

by BastilaBey Sun 03 Jul 2016, 8:13 pm

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I'm really expecting to see a mixture of emotional suffering and attempts to make amends, because don't they go together? I want the pain to come from how difficult it is, from realizing how many people he's hurt and how many mistakes he's made, from accepting that there is no burden that should be handled alone. Apologizing isn't going to be easy for Kylo. He'll have to prove himself every step of the way, and that is going to hurt him a great deal. I'm okay with Kylo angst. If I hated angsty anti-heroes I probably wouldn't enjoy Kylo as much as I do. xD

@FrolickingFizzgig

Exactly, Kylo will suffer emotionally for a long time, perhaps forever over what he has done. It's not about being sadistic to want to see that - I want him to be sorry, to express true remorse. He needs to if the story is going where we think it is. And I want Rey to say, I see you - I see the darkness in you, I saw you commit your darkest deed, but I also see your light. I see your worth, and what you can give.

That's why I care about 'Reylo' as well as Kylo's redemption, it's why I've always loved BatB dynamics. It will honestly never get old for me, someone learning to see every part of another person and accepting all of it, loving all of them. Even if Rey and Kylo didn't end up as 'a couple' (and I think they will, but am impatiently trying to wait for the story to be told haha), Rey will need to accept him and feel compassion. It's not about erasing what he's done, it's the opposite.

by Mana Sun 03 Jul 2016, 8:25 pm

I think Kylo represents youth and the bad decisions that young people make in their lives under the influence of misguided ideals and I think that was what drew me to him. He may have been manipulated from childhood, but ultimately, it was HIS choice to turn to the darkness, HIS choice to idolize Vader's evil deeds even above the authority of Snoke and it was HIS choice to kill his father.

In the end its going to be very satisfying to see how a person can come back from all that.

by ISeeAnIsland Sun 03 Jul 2016, 8:54 pm

It sounds like a fair amount of suffering is built into Kylo's storyline for VIII, from what we already know. I mean, his ship is probably going to crash, his knights are likely all going to get taken out by Luke, and then he'll be stuck on Ahch-To (possibly as a prisoner) with his uncle and the girl who he's infatuated with but who rejected and humiliated him. He may or may not save Rey's life there at some point.

Just going off the things that we're fairly confident about for VIII, his circumstances will provide a very good set up to start atoning for some of the things he's done.

by ZioRen Sun 03 Jul 2016, 9:11 pm

ISeeAnIsland wrote:It sounds like a fair amount of suffering is built into Kylo's storyline for VIII, from what we already know. I mean, his ship is probably going to crash, his knights are likely all going to get taken out by Luke, and then he'll be stuck on Ahch-To (possibly as a prisoner) with his uncle and the girl who he's infatuated with but who rejected and humiliated him. He may or may not save Rey's life there at some point.

Just going off the things that we're fairly confident about for VIII, his circumstances will provide a very good set up to start atoning for some of the things he's done.

@ISeeAnIsland

I'm curious as to the backlash there will be if the story plays out like this (as in with Kylo showing signs of atonement this early). Kylo already gets a ton of criticism for being a weak villain. This kind of storyline, unless he turns it around to something terrible at the end, would cut down on his villainy even more.

by FrolickingFizzgig Sun 03 Jul 2016, 9:20 pm

ZioRen wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:It sounds like a fair amount of suffering is built into Kylo's storyline for VIII, from what we already know. I mean, his ship is probably going to crash, his knights are likely all going to get taken out by Luke, and then he'll be stuck on Ahch-To (possibly as a prisoner) with his uncle and the girl who he's infatuated with but who rejected and humiliated him. He may or may not save Rey's life there at some point.

Just going off the things that we're fairly confident about for VIII, his circumstances will provide a very good set up to start atoning for some of the things he's done.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm curious as to the backlash there will be if the story plays out like this (as in with Kylo showing signs of atonement this early). Kylo already gets a ton of criticism for being a weak villain. This kind of storyline, unless he turns it around to something terrible at the end, would cut down on his villainy even more.

@ZioRen
There won't be backlash if the story is told effectively, which really is the whole point here (well, I'm sure there will be backlash, but just the normal amount from the normal "fans" who hate everything). I tend not to even bother thinking about details like this because we'll be getting it all at once, not in small pieces. It'll be a story, not unrelated scenes of Kylo randomly atoning. There will be a narrative and clear character development, moments of anger, moments of realization, etc.

by Mana Sun 03 Jul 2016, 9:28 pm

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
ZioRen wrote:
ISeeAnIsland wrote:It sounds like a fair amount of suffering is built into Kylo's storyline for VIII, from what we already know. I mean, his ship is probably going to crash, his knights are likely all going to get taken out by Luke, and then he'll be stuck on Ahch-To (possibly as a prisoner) with his uncle and the girl who he's infatuated with but who rejected and humiliated him. He may or may not save Rey's life there at some point.

Just going off the things that we're fairly confident about for VIII, his circumstances will provide a very good set up to start atoning for some of the things he's done.
@ISeeAnIsland

I'm curious as to the backlash there will be if the story plays out like this (as in with Kylo showing signs of atonement this early). Kylo already gets a ton of criticism for being a weak villain. This kind of storyline, unless he turns it around to something terrible at the end, would cut down on his villainy even more.
@ZioRen
There won't be backlash if the story is told effectively, which really is the whole point here (well, I'm sure there will be backlash, but just the normal amount from the normal "fans" who hate everything). I tend not to even bother thinking about details like this because we'll be getting it all at once, not in small pieces. It'll be a story, not unrelated scenes of Kylo randomly atoning. There will be a narrative and clear character development, moments of anger, moments of realization, etc.

@FrolickingFizzgig

There's this idea going around that a redeemed Ben Solo will usurp Finn's position as the hero, which is absolutely ridiculous and untrue. Finn will never be Ben and Ben will never be Finn.

by panki Mon 04 Jul 2016, 5:59 am

SoloSideCousin wrote:Adam did such an incredible job with this character that I just found myself caring about him, worrying about him. I remember by the time of catwalk scene I was so invested that I was grabbing onto my hair just thinking, "Don't do it. Don't make this mistake! You don't have to do it!" Han Solo has always been my favorite, but at that moment I was so worried about where this action would take Kylo. I didn't know if he could recover from it. I was mad at that moment that writers had put such a beautifully acted and nuanced and just "beautifully damaged" character in such a terrible hole. I was literally like "What a f***ing waste!" But then I saw the Snow Fight scene. I saw that he didn't get red-eyed like Anakin ... and he wanted to be her teacher, he had let her get the advantage on him, and I was like, "Wait a minute ... there is something going on here." :-)

I've had to explore why her has impacted me so much. A huge part is the acting. I had wanted to be an actor when I was younger, so Adam's work and his story to how he came to his career were very inspiring to me. A lot of movie stars have some industry connection. He had none ... and he is not traditionally good-looking. His acting is just *that good*. I am really into watching performances because I love watching the choices made. You do not come across somehow like him very often. That's why I think people call him "Brando" and "Pacino", because he really is in that kind of category IMO. His courage in being willing to go "all the way" in ways other actors, good actors, do not, is very impressive to me.

But I knew that there had to be something about the character I was connecting with. Why did I care about his well-being so much? I am sure part of it was seeing the disgusting reactions people had to him online, when to me he was absolutely a metaphor for mental illness, drug-addiction, not knowing what to do with his talents and a rather abandoned outsider in a world that did not fit into well. Mental illness, drug addiction and confusion are not reasons for condemnation. People with those conditions can do amazing things, sometimes things that people without those burdens could never achieve. So many successful people have depression, anxiety, bipolar and addictive personalities, but when some of these people overcome some of that ... d*** it's some of the most beautiful things you can ever see in life. There are studies that show that what causes depression also enhances creativity. It is the ultimate dark and light.

Adam Driver himself seems to have significant anxiety. Yet, look at what he does. Mike Wallace had serious depression, but look what he did. How many writers and filmmakers were "abnormal" and still changed the world with their works? Read a Malcolm Gladwell book and see how people use a history of trauma to help fuel them create innovations, including incredibly innovations in science. Sometimes the burden and the overcoming of it can make these people truly extraordinary ... so the online "writing off" as him as "Emo" or "Evil" or a "Turd" like that podcaster guy said in the Alexandra Petri interview @snufkin brought over, just really disgusts me.

But going even deeper, I knew that there was something I was identifying with ... and I realized that I too had dealt with confusion and abandonment issues and a family that was not always a help. But I think the strongest connection was the Snoke and to a lesser extent, Luke, "dependency relationship" thing. We all loved each other in my family, but dysfunctions abounded with my parents that led to me being the "parent" to my parents way too much. And as a result, I developed very co-dependent relationships where their needs and their opinions took precedence over mine. For many years my life was led in a way with the primary thought of "Will this make their life stable and happy?", while the more important question, "Will this make me happy?" came a far second, if at all. Living like this led to a lot of unhappiness on my part, and it has taken years for me to extricate myself from that mindset ... and even now I can be very vulnerable to guilt-tripping and affectations of neediness, and I have to remind myself that my life is my own.

And I think that's the big Kylo connection for me. His life has *never* been his own. He's had a demon whispering in his ear his whole life. The emotional manipulation used on him is on a operatic, supernatural scale ... but I too know what it is to be emotionally manipulated from too young of age. I know what the guilt-tripping whisper sounds like and how it makes you suppress your own self and how eventually it makes you feel resentful and trapped. I also know what it is like to be told how you have to fit into a certain box and to get judgment when you don't follow the rules. Both Snoke and Luke try to put him in a box, and he fits in neither. Vader's helmet puts him in some big guilt-trip burdensome box. He was estranged from his father because he didn't fit in his father's box and probably his mother's box as well. He needs to build his own new box ... but until he values his own worth, his own mind, his own right to choose his future, he will not be able to do that. And he will not be able to do that until he extricates himself from the dependency relationships he is in. And he will not be able to do that until he acknowledges and *then celebrates* and *is okay* with the fact that he doesn't fit. Getting to the point where you think you are entitled to your own life and happiness and that you might be an oddball in the world you were born into is a tall order, and it takes a lot of work ... but it can be done ... and is worth being done.

I have done a lot of that work ... and I want to see him reach those milestones. I don't think he is evil at all. I think he is a mess because of a variety of factors. Dark side/trauma/abuse = mental illness/post-traumatic behavior. His powers and abandonment = confusion and neediness and vulnerability. But if he can break away, tell all the talkers to just shut the f*** up and be like "Yeah, I'm dark and light. Deal with it!", then there will be no stopping him ... because I think one of the things that hold all of those artists and innovators with demons that I mentioned above is the fact is that I think all of them said to themselves at some point, "Yeah, I have demons. That's who I am and that's okay. Now please get out of the way because I've got stuff to do. The demons just get one seat in the bus."

by C.V Mon 04 Jul 2016, 6:38 am

i was never invested in the OT even though i really liked the movies, not the way im am with this new trilogy. im really into fantasy/fairytales mixed with sci fi(sometimes,usually its just fantasy/fairytale) stories that have an overarching story line that goes on for many episodes or movies. im also attracted to dynamics similar to reylo as well as relatable and interesting characters. a story needs to have some kind of depth for me to get invested generally with dynamic characters and interesting story possibilities. also i totally gravitated to kylo as a character, there was a lot going on with him, very multifaceted and his potential arc in the story piqued my interest a lot especially given how star wars wasnt a cynical or nihilistic kind of story either. also it helped that there were places to discuss and further analyze the movie, the symbolism,foreshadowing,metaphors, literary tropes and characters, it made me even more invested and love the stories and characters. i really like going on a journey with the characters and feeling immersed in the story being told, that when its finished i feel a little empty but really happy to have been a part of it. i think that's why i watch anime a lot and asian drama's, it satisfy's my fantasy/fairytale craving and romance/love stories with reylo like couples lol. p.s i dont really go for all or any fantasy/fairytale/romance content, i guess everything has to align, the elements in the story for me to stick around. i've come to know that im quite picky

edit: omg how could i forget about my tall bean Adam, his acting was so on point i was like What a Face

, his acting captured my interest(and my heart lol) and im so happy he was the one who was portraying kylo

by ZenBrainJam Mon 04 Jul 2016, 10:30 am

I personally care about Kylo Ren because he is the classic villain that you can perceive as worthy of compassion when he is still on the bad side. I know that he will turn to the light during the ST and I am totally fine with this (renperor dosn't exixst as a real possibility IMO). But in the meantime the thing that can really captivate me is the real chance that Rey and other characters could feel him whorty of their affection before his redemption. No one is the sum of his/her sins or failures or mistakes. We make mistakes, but our failures are not ourselves, I don't know if I am explaining here or not... I am not saying that killing Han is a small thing, it's not. Nor I am saying that Kylo Ren will not suffer in VIII or IX, or he will not try to atone and struggle doing it. He probably will. But it's not the struggling after the realization that he needs to redeem himself and repair his mistakes that I find fascinating. It's the "I love you" before that realization, the "you are worthy of affection" that will trigger the redemption that I find riveting. And maybe I will have all of this in VIII, who knows. We shall see...

by Slade Mon 04 Jul 2016, 12:22 pm

ZenBrainJam wrote:I personally care about Kylo Ren because he is the classic villain that you can perceive as worthy of compassion when he is still on the bad side. I know that he will turn to the light during the ST and I am totally fine with this (renperor dosn't exixst as a real possibility IMO). But in the meantime the thing that can really captivate me is the real chance that Rey and other characters could feel him whorty of their affection before his redemption. No one is the sum of his/her sins or failures or mistakes. We make mistakes, but our failures are not ourselves, I don't know if I am explaining here or not... I am not saying that killing Han is a small thing, it's not. Nor I am saying that Kylo Ren will not suffer in VIII or IX, or he will not try to atone and struggle doing it. He probably will. But it's not the struggling after the realization that he needs to redeem himself and repair his mistakes that I find fascinating. It's the "I love you" before that realization, the "you are worthy of affection" that will trigger the redemption that I find riveting. And maybe I will have all of this in VIII, who knows. We shall see...

@ZenBrainJam

This. All of this.

by Irina de France Mon 04 Jul 2016, 2:42 pm

You know, I've been a casual fan of Star Wars before seeing TFA. I had seen all six movies, I knew a thing or two about the EU (like I knew all about Mara Jade, Admiral Thrawn, Jacen and Jaina Solo, but that was it), I LOVED Han and Leia (and I still love them today), but I wasn't really a die-hard fan.

My sister (who's fourteen years old) went to see it on December 21 (I think) with her school as a Christmas activity. She spoiled A LOT of things for me, including Han Solo's death, and no, I still haven't forgiven her. For some reason, she thought Rey and Kylo were brother and sister (but I don't blame her, because she's a bit innocent and she didn't pick up on some vibes), so when she told me that, I just said to myself: "Oh, so Kylo Ren and Rey are basically Jacen and Jaina Solo. Nice."

I had seen the trailers and the snippets before, and everything, but when I went around the internet and saw people saying Rey was a Solo, others saying she was Luke's daughter, and most especially, people shipping her with Kylo Ren while she had been marketed with Finn, and with my sister telling me Rey was Han and Leia's daughter, I was very confused.

So about a month later, I finally got up and went to see TFA in theaters, keeping in mind Rey was a Solo or at the very least a Skywalker.

The movie started, it was nice, it was fun, the characters were all likeable, but when Rey met Han, that's when things started getting... fishy. I had the strong impression Han knew who Rey was, but if she was his daughter... that left a lot of plot holes all of a sudden that I simply couldn't explain or wouldn't paint Han and Leia in a very good light. The Force vision came, I more or less clung to the belief that Rey was a Skywalker because that could explain why the only person she interacted with in the Force vision was Kylo, since they were both Skywalkers, and that was during her touching the legacy lightsaber, etc.

But then the Takodana scene came, along with the bridal carry, and my mind just clicked at that moment and I just went like: "WHAAAAAAAAAAT"

The unmasking really didn't help. Like, I had seen pics of Adam Driver before, but I didn't think he was particularly attractive (I wasn't like those ***holes saying he was ugly, though), but when the mask came out, I just went like: "HOLY SITH, WHO IS THIS GUY?" Rey's face was my face exactly, except it was probably even funnier.

And for the rest of the movie, I just looked at all of Rey and Kylo's interactions, and I came out of the movies saying to myself: "REY AND KYLO REN ARE GONNA BANG"

Queue me saying: "Oh lord, I'm trash."

Why do we care so much? - Page 2 52fbLxMQkWGT7FvhjbqA_Roof%20Jump

Why do we care so much? - Page 2 52fbLxMQkWGT7FvhjbqA_Roof%20Jump

(No, I did not really jump from a roof into the garbage can where I belong and failed.)

But basically, I was pretty sure when I came out of TFA that I was seeing things, and that Rey/Kylo was not going to happen, and that Finnrey was most certainly going to be endgame. It didn't make much sense to me for her to be a Skywalker, since their interactions didn't feel very... cousin-ish, to say the least. But then I went on the internet, I came across very well-written and well-thought metas, with analogies coming from literature, cinema, etc., and all the BatB parallels came back to me and smacked me in the face. And heaven knows BatB is my siren call.

TFA is what really got me into Star Wars. I've been watching The Clone Wars ever since, discovered even more EU material (the KOTOR universe in particular), read some canon novels...

I think the new characters are very engaging. I personally love Finn, and I really hope they'll give him the character development he deserves and not waste John Boyega. But I think I actually love Rey more than Kylo, since I always tend to prefer the female lead over the male lead(s) XD But I think I'm getting a similar pattern here with the OT: I love Finn/Luke, but I much prefer Rey/Kylo/Han/Leia to them. And I love Rey/Leia most of them all.

I think Rey was a very interesting and complex female lead, even though she's still more or less in a blank state, and I really can't wait to see how she'll unfurl. I don't think she'll be the classic heroine, though (Finn will be the classic hero, probably): I think she's going to become a more morally grey character, and I really can't wait to see that unfurl. Well, I do have a feeling they'll be testing the waters with a morally grey heroine with Jyn Erso in Rogue One, but hey. But as so many people said, she was at her most interesting whenever she was around Kylo. And honestly, I've looked at the story from every angle, and the only way it can go forward for Rey as a heroine is by Reylo, in one way or another. Otherwise, we either get an OT rehash or the story just stagnates for pretty much everyone, because ultimately, everything resolves around them both. I mean, of course, you can still get a B-plot with Finn/the Resistance, but still, the two ends will eventually meet.

For what is of Kylo... I think I care a lot about his redemption first of all because Han and Leia are my OT baes, and it would just plain sad if their son died unredeemed. Leia has been going through way too much BS in her life and deserves a break, Han died to show his son he isn't completely Dark, and Kylo just becoming more and more evil would make his father's death pointless. And we're talking about one of the most beloved characters in the SW franchise. But at the same time, Kylo gives me such a lost little boy vibe that despite all the terrible things he has done (and as much as Snoke was after him, he's still responsible for them, like it or not) I just can't bring myself to hate him at all. He's clearly so miserable I actually feel sorry for him, and I just don't see him as a bad seed, no matter what. He's unhappy, and in my eyes, even if he owes his mom a hella good apology for everything he has done, he still needs to be saved. It really horrified me how people said that he deserved to die, and that no one should help him, especially not Rey, since it would "diminish her character". Like yes, if it was her sole purpose, that would be a problem. But it's a whole other matter to say she's not allowed to be compassionate and kind, and as I said, it horrifies me that people can think that way and be so heinous.

Maybe it's due to my upbringing and that I'm Roman Catholic, and that my beliefs are very much based on forgiveness, mercy and redemption, but while I do acknowledge that some people are total monsters and you can't do anything for them, some people aren't, and do need a helping hand. And to me, Kylo falls in that category.

by SoloSideCousin Mon 04 Jul 2016, 3:53 pm

ZenBrainJam wrote:I personally care about Kylo Ren because he is the classic villain that you can perceive as worthy of compassion when he is still on the bad side. I know that he will turn to the light during the ST and I am totally fine with this (renperor dosn't exixst as a real possibility IMO). But in the meantime the thing that can really captivate me is the real chance that Rey and other characters could feel him whorty of their affection before his redemption. No one is the sum of his/her sins or failures or mistakes. We make mistakes, but our failures are not ourselves, I don't know if I am explaining here or not... I am not saying that killing Han is a small thing, it's not. Nor I am saying that Kylo Ren will not suffer in VIII or IX, or he will not try to atone and struggle doing it. He probably will. But it's not the struggling after the realization that he needs to redeem himself and repair his mistakes that I find fascinating. It's the "I love you" before that realization, the "you are worthy of affection" that will trigger the redemption that I find riveting. And maybe I will have all of this in VIII, who knows. We shall see...

@"ZenBrainJam"

Oh this is all so beautiful!!! Especially the bolded! Bravo!!!!!!!! (I need to get a good clapping emoji just for these kinds of occasions!!!) Very Happy

by BastilaBey Mon 04 Jul 2016, 4:08 pm

ZenBrainJam wrote:I personally care about Kylo Ren because he is the classic villain that you can perceive as worthy of compassion when he is still on the bad side. I know that he will turn to the light during the ST and I am totally fine with this (renperor dosn't exixst as a real possibility IMO). But in the meantime the thing that can really captivate me is the real chance that Rey and other characters could feel him whorty of their affection before his redemption. No one is the sum of his/her sins or failures or mistakes. We make mistakes, but our failures are not ourselves, I don't know if I am explaining here or not... I am not saying that killing Han is a small thing, it's not. Nor I am saying that Kylo Ren will not suffer in VIII or IX, or he will not try to atone and struggle doing it. He probably will. But it's not the struggling after the realization that he needs to redeem himself and repair his mistakes that I find fascinating. It's the "I love you" before that realization, the "you are worthy of affection" that will trigger the redemption that I find riveting. And maybe I will have all of this in VIII, who knows. We shall see...

@ZenBrainJam

This is why I cry every time I see Han Solo dying. It is so beautiful how Han dies with nothing but love for his son in his heart and his gesture. When Kylo said "It's too late", Han insisted it wasn't - and it still isn't. That even though he knew his son had done terrible things, he and Leia still loved him. Rey will see that too.

by MindAndMagic Mon 04 Jul 2016, 4:14 pm

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I'm really expecting to see a mixture of emotional suffering and attempts to make amends, because don't they go together? I want the pain to come from how difficult it is, from realizing how many people he's hurt and how many mistakes he's made, from accepting that there is no burden that should be handled alone. Apologizing isn't going to be easy for Kylo. He'll have to prove himself every step of the way, and that is going to hurt him a great deal. I'm okay with Kylo angst. If I hated angsty anti-heroes I probably wouldn't enjoy Kylo as much as I do. xD

@FrolickingFizzgig

That's what I expect and would like to see as well. Those complicated emotions are one the main reasons for my fascination with the character. Right now he is really an anti-villain, but I do believe he'll achieve his heroic status. Seems like suffering has been a permanent companion for Kylo ever since he decided to turn against his family and himself. It's only going to get more painful now that all his delusions are being shattered bit by bit. He fooled himself big time. The Ben Solo part is still there, we saw glimpses of it and it's only a matter of time before it prevails. If Rey ends up falling in love with him, it will be with Ben Solo, not Kylo Ren. He'll have to face the consequences of his actions and take the burden that goes with it, but that doesn't mean he has to do it all alone. His father died loving him, his mother sees the light inside his heart and Rey will see it too.

As for any possible backlash, it will probably be minimal once the full story is told, we have only about 5 hours left in total so it should happen effectively and convincingly, they need to reach some satisfying conclusion to the key conflicts by the end of XI. Details don't matter that much as long as the story is good and we're on the right track. I am more certain than ever that we are. All those conscious choices on part of the writers have a meaning, it's building towards something epic that will make the ST stand out. I'm particularly looking forward to seeing Leia's reunion with her son, Ben's atonement, sacrifice and transformation, the moment when he and Rey will finally address their feelings towards each other... So many interesting stuff coming up, many of them probably in VIII. I just hope they do it well.

by ZenBrainJam Mon 04 Jul 2016, 4:19 pm

@SoloSideCousin @BastilaBey
It's because I can see Kylo hating himself so much and be so lonely and miserable, that I would like to see someone loving him now, not after he will change himself. Believe in him right now, when he needs it the most, and believe in his potential for the good, and find him worthy of compassion and trust. Yes Han loved him until the end, but he was obviously trying to win him back, to change him. It would be amazing to see Rey loving him without trying to win the war too, just loving because he is worthy of love, because he is himself, without worrying about the dark or the light side. And wanting him into the light for his happiness and not because it's the right thing to do and resistance needs someone to kill Snoke.

by SoloSideCousin Mon 04 Jul 2016, 4:23 pm

ZenBrainJam wrote:@SoloSideCousin @BastilaBey
It's because I can see Kylo hating himself so much and be so lonely and miserable, that I would like to see someone loving him now, not after he will change himself. Believe in him right now, when he needs it the most, and believe in his potential for the good, and find him worthy of compassion and trust. Yes Han loved him until the end, but he was obviously trying to win him back, to change him. It would be amazing to see Rey loving him without trying to win the war too, just loving because he is worthy of love, because he is himself, without worrying about the dark or the light side. And wanting him into the light for his happiness and not because it's the right thing to do and resistance needs someone to kill Snoke.

@ZenBrainJam

THIS!!!!!! So much this!!! Just beautiful!!!

by ZioRen Mon 04 Jul 2016, 4:27 pm

ZenBrainJam wrote:@SoloSideCousin @BastilaBey
It's because I can see Kylo hating himself so much and be so lonely and miserable, that I would like to see someone loving him now, not after he will change himself. Believe in him right now, when he needs it the most, and believe in his potential for the good, and find him worthy of compassion and trust. Yes Han loved him until the end, but he was obviously trying to win him back, to change him. It would be amazing to see Rey loving him without trying to win the war too, just loving because he is worthy of love, because he is himself, without worrying about the dark or the light side. And wanting him into the light for his happiness and not because it's the right thing to do and resistance needs someone to kill Snoke.

@ZenBrainJam

Unconditional love is the only thing that would ever bring Kylo back from the edge, the way all the punishment and suffering and guilt never could. Just like love brought Vader's light back. Star Wars at its finest!

by BastilaBey Mon 04 Jul 2016, 4:29 pm

ZenBrainJam wrote:@SoloSideCousin @BastilaBey
It's because I can see Kylo hating himself so much and be so lonely and miserable, that I would like to see someone loving him now, not after he will change himself. Believe in him right now, when he needs it the most, and believe in his potential for the good, and find him worthy of compassion and trust. Yes Han loved him until the end, but he was obviously trying to win him back, to change him. It would be amazing to see Rey loving him without trying to win the war too, just loving because he is worthy of love, because he is himself, without worrying about the dark or the light side. And wanting him into the light for his happiness and not because it's the right thing to do and resistance needs someone to kill Snoke.

@ZenBrainJam

This is what I think is going to happen. The war isn't Rey's, her conflict with Kylo is not political. It has been personal from the very beginning. Let's be real, he didn't take her because she saw the map. He chose to take her but could have taken the droid. He's drawn to her even if he isn't aware of it.

I don't think Kylo has to be 'fully redeemed' (whatever that means) before Rey shows him affection. That's not how it works, her compassion will be instrumental in his redemption, even if he makes sacrifices with no expectation that she'll love him in return. We already have a spoiler that she doesn't want to kill him which sent anti-redemptionists into a tizzy. They thought 'after she saw him kill his father, why on earth wouldn't she want revenge?'

She already attacked him, she rejected him, we don't need a repeat of that and it's certainly not what Kylo needs either. He needs understanding, and who better to offer that than someone who's seen inside his head with all his greatest fears?

by CienaRee Mon 04 Jul 2016, 4:37 pm

ZenBrainJam wrote:@SoloSideCousin @BastilaBey
It's because I can see Kylo hating himself so much and be so lonely and miserable, that I would like to see someone loving him now, not after he will change himself. Believe in him right now, when he needs it the most, and believe in his potential for the good, and find him worthy of compassion and trust. Yes Han loved him until the end, but he was obviously trying to win him back, to change him. It would be amazing to see Rey loving him without trying to win the war too, just loving because he is worthy of love, because he is himself, without worrying about the dark or the light side. And wanting him into the light for his happiness and not because it's the right thing to do and resistance needs someone to kill Snoke.

@ZenBrainJam

Bravo. Claps

You've said it so wondefully and I think that's why I have a problem with some people saying that Rey should love him after he redeems himself.Love just doest work like that.She may deny loving him or refuse to be with him but I think the beauty of their relationship would be her seeing that despite having done awful things he can redeem himself eventhough he can't make up for all the lives he's taken or be forgiven by people that there is a chance for him to save his soul and if she can help him in any way she can she will because like you said she loves him and wants to see him be happy not because going back to the Light is the right thing to do.I think this would be a much more satisfying scenario than them becoming reluctant allies or something.I think it has the potential to be even more satisfying than Vader's redemption because eventhough it was done beautifully Luke never really knew his father this time Rey would want to see Kylo redeemed when she knows what kidn fo a person he and used to be .

by ZenBrainJam Mon 04 Jul 2016, 4:45 pm

Just imagine: after days on ach to together, both of them feeling better near the other one than far away, a sort of truce, peace just for a brief moment, then Hux and FO arrives, taking Rey as captive and congratulating Kylo for this success. Kylo looking at her, worried, struggling. Does he want to win? Is this victory important? It is, but he doesn't want it anymore. Kylo kills Hux and shout to Rey "go away, run!" She ask "why?". There's no time. He kiss her: an answer, a last goodbye, a confession, an apology, all at once with a single kiss. She run away, he is alone prepared to die fighting. But then, Rey comes back for him.
~~Someone should stop me right now!!! It will never happen like this!! Too much headcanon tonight!!~~

by Marchtwin Mon 04 Jul 2016, 5:23 pm

Always knew there was something bugging me about the idea that Kylo should be loved ONLY after being whipped nearly to death for his sins. Anakin didn't cross to the dark side out of the blue, Padme was kinda the reason, the catalyst. Why should Kylo even try to go back if he thinks no one would be waiting for him no matter what? That's why we hear Leia saying there's still good in him. That's why Rey will learn to love the Ben still inside him, dark and light and all. Your posts about this topic were very wholesome, I feel happy!

by MindAndMagic Mon 04 Jul 2016, 6:01 pm

I agree. Even though I think any romance between them will only be fully realised (as in actually getting together) after Kylo's journey is complete, it doesn't mean Rey won't develop feelings for him long before that. In fact, I think they both have already. Just look at how she reacts to him. Kylo is the one that elicits the greatest emotional reactions from Rey: stunned look after unmasking, stolen looks, discomfort, weird connection in their loneliness through the force, fierce anger during their duel. It's all so personal with these two. They are equals, both have light & dark within, which means they understand each other like no one can. That's exactly why Rey will be the person who guides him through this difficult journey, the one who believes in him. Both Rey and Kylo have already found the belonging they've longed for all their lives. They just don't know it yet.

by Xylo Ren Mon 04 Jul 2016, 6:08 pm

I care because of the epic potential this story holds.

The child of two strong original characters fallen to the dark side?

That same legacy character struggling with not the dark, but with being drawn to the light?

A storm trooper with an actual soul?

More to the force than just jedi and sith?

A woman that's a fighter and a man that shows emotions?

Two force users on opposite sides, possibly meaning the world to each other?

Two young people fighting dragons of loneliness and belonging, potentially finding home and balance at last?

I'll have twenty, please. What a Face

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