A Rey of Darkness: Dark Side Lineage Theories

Yep, I'm exactly at the half way point, and lo and behold it was just confirmed Rax was indeed that boy on Jakku in the beginning of the book. I pounded through Bloodlines in three days, but I'm taking more time with this one, reading maybe 30 pages a day.

I'm like you too. I go back and forth a lot on Rey's origins.
I was never what you would call a Kenobi enthusiast, but for a long time I saw it as likely, even though I preferred dark origins for her. All this talk about Jakku being the center of Darkside activity is getting me excited all over again.

The name Rax means 'to stretch out one's hand'....since SW character's names are meaningful, Michelangelo's The Creation of Adam came to my mind:



Could Rax have some role to play in Rey's past? Maybe they are related...or even if he is not her parent, maybe she is part of a genetic program he supervised? So either her father or creator? Jakku was rumored to have a secret imperial facility and the Empire was into cloning and similar activities.

While reading about some old EU Star Wars Trading Card games, I came across something which reminded me of Rey and Kylo in some ways....unfortunately in trading card games, there is no clear ending...it all depends on the players choices. This one is called the Nightsister's Revenge.

The cards show two characters- a dark jedi and relic hunter called Namman Cha and a Nightsister named Kyrisa who was exiled into an isolated Wasteland (Hoth in this case) because her fellow clan members felt she was too powerful and felt threatened. Kyrisa even looks a little like Rey (if you look past the face paint) and she carries a Halberd in addition to her lightsaber.





I honestly don't know if he has any romantic intent (never played the game) but Namman Cha pursues Kyrisa in the hope of getting her to join him. He spends his time finding ancient relics to learn as much as possible to become powerful (don't think this part is like Kylo, though).

Namman and Kyrisa are having a lightsaber duel in the snow and he is trying to persuade her to join him.

Namman watching Kyrisa (this made me think of Kylo potentially stalking Rey on Ahch-To while she is riding on Space Chicken )

This pack has another card I like a lot- Force empathy....

Another book to read? Why are they doing that to us? I had not realized Han and Chewie were also in the book. Jakku was once a green place o_O. Fine, I'll read it.

I have nothing intelligent to say on the dark lineage today except that I am on board. Whatever opens up the universe and makes Rey more complex is good to me. I love the idea of Rey being the ultimate relic of a lost past that we will get to discover with her. I just had a flash of the 5th element saying that - don't ask. I think even if her lineage is not dark but "only" ancient, it would be quite a weight on her shoulders bringing more gravity to the story. Even though she embraced the Force to kick Kylo's a**, I think she still thinks of herself as a scavenger. With a mission, but a scavenger nonetheless.

SanghaRen wrote:Another book to read? Why are they doing that to us? I had not realized Han and Chewie were also in the book. Jakku was once a green place o_O. Fine, I'll read it.

I have nothing intelligent to say on the dark lineage today except that I am on board. Whatever opens up the universe and makes Rey more complex is good to me. I love the idea of Rey being the ultimate relic of a lost past that we will get to discover with her. I just had a flash of the 5th element saying that - don't ask. I think even if her lineage is not dark but "only" ancient, it would be quite a weight on her shoulders bringing more gravity to the story. Even though she embraced the Force to kick Kylo's a**, I think she still thinks of herself as a scavenger. With a mission, but a scavenger nonetheless.

@SanghaRen

That's exactly what Rey is though, and it's not going to change. She finds broken things that everyone else thinks is damaged beyond repair, puts them back together and gives them purpose again. She'll do the same with Ben Solo.

I notice that a couple of the canon novels mention opera music...and I feel they are a clue to Rey's origins...

The first is from Lost Stars:

In Core Worlds Classical Culture: “Who here can tell me which opera the composer Igern is best known for?”
Ciena’s hand shot up, and when the professor nodded at her, she answered, “Chalice and Altar.”
“Very good, Cadet Ree. And can you tell me the themes for which this opera is famed?”
Uh-oh. She could hum several melodies from Chalice and Altar, but she didn’t enjoy opera music. That made it difficult for her to connect music to plot.
After only a moment’s pause, the professor turned away. “Memorizing by rote, Cadet Ree? Unfortunate. Does anyone else know?”
The sound of Thane’s voice from behind her pierced her like a knife between the shoulder blades. He said, “The opera deals with the morality of self-sacrifice and the repression of desire.”

The second is from Aftermath- Life Debt:

The first piece he ever heard as a boy plays in his chambers now: The Cantata of Cora Vessora, an Old Republic opera of a dark witch on an unnamed world who refused to become Jedi—but neither would she join the Sith. It is a tale of birth, death, and all the glories found between those poles: love, passion, war, and above all else revenge. Revenge against the Sith who took her loved ones. Revenge against the Jedi for standing idly by and refusing to protect her because she would not join their ranks. Revenge against the galaxy for being as imperfect and impure as she had feared. The tale itself was something he didn’t learn until much later. The story mattered, of course.

Both the cantata and opera seem to be about similar themes (repression of desire is something encouraged by jedi and chalices and altars are also sometimes associated with witches)... it would be really interesting if the cantata was a scene from the same opera. Cora is another name for Persephone and Vessora means broom, establishing her as a witch but bringing in an element of abduction followed by romance. The jedi wanted to recruit her and she refused, maybe because being a jedi involved repression of desire. The sith wanted her to join them. She refused them as well so they took her loved ones. The jedi refused to help her because she didn't join them (shows the jedi aren't so nice after all). Then she took revenge on the entire galaxy and that might have something to do with Jakku and maybe even why Jakku is now a desert instead of a lush green planet. (maybe she created and used some sort of super weapon that made Jakku a force vacuum?)

The recent comics/books and even Rey's survival guide talk about different types of force worshipers...many of whom await some form of a savior....like the egg worshipers in the Poe Dameron comic or the hermits waiting for the Eremite on Jakku in Aftermath-Life Debt.

Could Rey be a descendant of this ancient witch who has returned to restore balance to the galaxy?

The lack of spoilers and news is quite boring so I got creative and combined Lucas Graciano's Nightsister (he is an artist for LF) with a sith pike from SWTOR and created what I imagine Rey would be like if she decided to go all dark-side on Ach-to  

@panki

Nice. Would be quite something if she turned out to able to use force lightning.

I cannot shake the feeling - as others - that Rey's origins are linked to Snoke somehow. She has to end up going against him for personal reasons and not because the Skywalkers told her she should. If Snoke is not a Sith, what is he? What kind of force user is he?

I have a hard time seeing Rey as a nightsister. Not sure why. I guess it's because they sound like space amazons and then I have pics of Raquel Welsh with not much textile on her in my head and I am like "yikes, no!" Plus the women only thing annoys me a bit. Sounds like sorority in college and I am a bit allergic to "whatever only" clubs. Are there nightbrothers too? One look at Wookipedia... Yes, there are nightbrothers. Darth Maul was born one apparently. One very naive question : can Rey really be of nightsister origin with her facial features? When I google nightsister, they all have very narrow features and a greyish skin. Or are there different tribes?

I am trying to wrap my head around nightsisters, because you mentioned it several times, and how it could be part of the story

SanghaRen wrote:@panki

Nice. Would be quite something if she turned out to able to use force lightning.

I cannot shake the feeling - as others - that Rey's origins are linked to Snoke somehow. She has to end up going against him for personal reasons and not because the Skywalkers told her she should. If Snoke is not a Sith, what is he? What kind of force user is he?

I have a hard time seeing Rey as a nightsister. Not sure why. I guess it's because they sound like space amazons and then I have pics of Raquel Welsh with not much textile on her in my head and I am like "yikes, no!" Plus the women only thing annoys me a bit. Sounds like sorority in college and I am a bit allergic to "whatever only" clubs. Are there nightbrothers too? One look at Wookipedia... Yes, there are nightbrothers. Darth Maul was born one apparently. One very naive question : can Rey really be of nightsister origin with her facial features? When I google nightsister, they all have very narrow features and a greyish skin. Or are there different tribes?

I am trying to wrap my head around nightsisters, because you mentioned it several times, and how it could be part of the story

@SanghaRen

The EU had Nightsisters who were human, but canon seems to have all Nightsisters being a near-human species. This said, Rey *could* have Nightsister blood, but from far away in her ancestry.

@Irina de France

True. The question is what would it bring to the story to make her a nightsister. Include witchcraft into the ST? A different connection to the Force? A more greyish approach to the use of the Force? These nightsisters look a bit gloomy I wonder what people would think about the mix Force / Witchcraft. The ones like me who have never watched TCW or read about Ventress. At first, to me at least, it sounds like a strange mix. I always thought more about Rey's origins being connected to a group of force users that'd be more ancient than the Jedi, the Sith or even the Nightsisters. I guess one can make it nightsister-y without going the full spectrum of witchcraft. I could see ancient times when everyone was invited to listen to the Force and use it to the limit of their powers. And then the Jedi came and said "nope, not for everyone, only we are the chosen ones!"

I just came across the nightsister zombies. Now that would be fun on the island although maybe too much of a rehash of the Mummy.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/nightsister-zombies

@SanghaRen

The whole Mummy and witchcraft angle is a very simplistic way of understanding the Nightsisters.....the Nightsisters follow a more shamanistc tradition....something even the jedi used to follow at one time, if we go by the temple wall paintings on Lothal..... so prima facie, their tradition is a more ancient way of using the force, just like what you said you were hoping to see....but let us look at it in further detail.

Lothal Jedi Temple Art

The force is life (confirmed in canon)....the nightsisters see the connection between themselves and all beings- plants animals etc...what the Nightsisters consider magic is what the jedi consider the force....then by the same coin, should the jedi and sith be called witches and wizards too? Because honestly, there is absolutely no difference between what the Nightsisters do and what the jedi/sith do....they just use different names for it..... the only big difference is that they don't see the dark side of the force as evil....just another aspect of the force as long as one doesn't immerse themselves in it (mentioned in the canon Dark Disciple novel).....this is something I think is really important for the new trilogy and one of the reasons Nightsisters are very relevant. The latest Han Solo comic explores a bit of the Nightsister belief and what we see the force priestesses mention about how people who die are not truly gone....the zombie nightsisters are a part of this... technically the Nightsisters can bring a dead person back to life but if their body is decomposed, they return as zombies as we saw in TCW....but in the Son of Dathomir, Mother Talzin is able to return from the spirit world and take on a physical shape as well once she gets hold of enough force energy.... this again opens up a world of interesting possibilities.


The reason the Nightsisters live separately is because women are considered stronger in the force but that doesn't mean they don't form attachments or fall in love......look at Mother Talzin's love for her son Maul where she sacrifices a part of her power to restore his mind in TCW and finally gives up her life to save him in the canon Son of Dathomir comics.....or Ventress's love for Vos which made her sacrifice herself for him in Dark Disciple.... so definitely not amazonian in their philosophy beyond being female warriors.

A lot of what we know about the Nightsisters is in the EU but the reason they look pale faced is because of their abilitiy to channel dark side magic (its been confirmed in the Ahsoka novels that dark side users have pale complexions)....as for their species, they are a mix of human and Zabrak... the women end up looking human so even if Rey had Nightsister blood, she could very well look like a regular human being......we see Asajj Ventress look like a regular pink faced human baby in TCW....she only grows pale because of years as a sith and then as a Nightsister.



Now returning to why I feel Nightsisters are relevant....because I don't think the new movies should just stick to the same old OT and PT ideas only.....just because the GA isn't familiar with TCW doesn't mean the story remains restrictive...there is a great universe out there and it should be about more than just jedi and sith....tptb has already said that we will be seeing more force users....well, the Nightsisters are a very important force tradition in canon and the EU....also, in the EU, Han and Leia's granddaughter had Dathomirian witch blood (from her mother).

Allana Djo Solo

Also, the Nightsisters have been mentioned in the canon novel Aftermath...this means that this group still exists in some form.... what better way to bring them into the movies than to give Rey Dathomirian Nightsister origins... this is one way to make her flirt with the dark but not become a complete dark sider like the sith....also let us not forget the rumors that characters in Nightsister costume were spotted on the Episode VII set (it might have been cut out because of JJ's mystery box policy).

So the reason I keep bringing up Nightsisters is because it can open up a whole exciting new world of possibilities in what we can see a force user do, it brings in great costumes and it would be a lot more visually delightful on an IMAX screen than the usual force pushes and lightsaber duels.

Not sure where to drop this thought that I had while eating my breakfast!!

But years after Harry Potter hit the world I'm finally getting into it!!!

Anyway I know some people are very adamant that Rey is a Skywalker or a Solo or a Kenobi or a Palpatine (which I think would be great in terms of Palpatine helped Anakin to the Dark Side and it would be cool if his descendant helped guide Anakin's grandson back to the Light). Sorry I transgress. Now I'm only half way through the first HP book but I have seen the last two films and it's quite clear that Harmonie is a key character despite the fact that she is a Muggle (so not special in terms of her birth) unkike Harry Potter himself.

So I'm not against the idea of Rey being a no-body by birth because we already have the legacy child in Kylo/Ben (despite a lot of the wider audience seemingly forgetting that because his name isn't SKYWALKER - Leia suffers from the same problem).

I mean if she's related to anyone I want it to be Obi-wan but more Palpatine only for my previously stated reason.

Sorry for the probably irrelevant ramble I'm rushing because I've got to get to work!!!

Well, Rey Palpatine would also be quite interesting.....Catalyst brought in the concept that Coruscant women get others to carry their children for them...so Sly Moore (who appears in Catalyst) and Palpatine could have had a child together and had a surrogate carry him/her in secret......so Rey could turn out to be Palpatine's granddaughter.

I'm okay with Rey Random...while her parents could be unknowns, I hope they are affiliated to some group......Nightsister, Mandalorian, smugglers, bounty hunters, church of the force, some dark side cult etc....Ben Solo/Kylo represents the legacy of jedi and sith (hence a lot of old characters) as well as two royal houses (Naboo and Alderaan).... Poe represents rebels like Wedge Antilles, Mon Mothma, Dodona etc.... we don't have other groups represented enough in this generation so I hope they correct it in the case of Rey and Finn.

@panki

Thank you for the long and interesting explanation on nightsisters. I checked stuff mainly on the Star Wars website and Wookipedia and the witch grey-skinned image is what prevails there and I must admit it's something I could see in books, comics or shows but less in movies. However, as you mentioned there are other aspects to it which could indeed make it interesting to include in the movies. Do you recommend any specific material to know more about nightsisters? There is no way I am reading 5 books or watch the whole TCW. So anything that according to you is the must-see or must-read to understand nightsisters?

@Rogue Rey

Rey Palpatine does have some appeal to me too. Mainly because it would be very upsettting to Rey and her dynamic with Kylo would then change dramatically. But not only to Kylo. Imagine how Luke, Leia and others would react to that - Bloodline gave a good idea on how people could react. We would probably end up with a Rogue Rey At the same time I agree with Panki that it would be nice if Rey would represent a new group that we haven't seen so far in movies. That's why I kind of like Rey Prana although we have no idea if King Prana is important and if he is linked to Rey at all. It's fun to imagine.

I am more excited to see new characters than seeing other "old" characters raise from their tombs, so to speak. Possibly evil new characters that I can hate on with the heat of thousand suns. Unless Snoke takes that role in VIII but it's hard to imagine right now. I mean I do hate Snoke but he's so distant. I need an active character to hate on. Hux is annyoing and I do want to punch him in the face, but we need an evil one or a whole evil group in the Force plot. And my wish is that Rey is linked to that evil someone or evil group somehow. Surviving in harsh conditions is one thing, but having a choice between evil and good when you have some power is on a whole other level

@SanghaRen

The information about Nightsisters in canon is unfortunately scattered across many books, comics and in TCW.... but you could always read the Book of Sith: Secrets from the Darkside.... though it is an EU book, it gives a really detailed explanation about the Nightsisters....all the information about the Nightsisters in that book (their powers, lore, types of Nightsisters, initiation rituals, etc) has been brought into canon so it is an excellent read even now if you want to learn about them from one source.

panki wrote:Well, Rey Palpatine would also be quite interesting.....Catalyst brought in the concept that Coruscant women get others to carry their children for them...so Sly Moore (who appears in Catalyst) and Palpatine could have had a child together and had a surrogate carry him/her in secret......so Rey could turn out to be Palpatine's granddaughter.

I'm okay with Rey Random...while her parents could be unknowns, I hope they are affiliated to some group......Nightsister, Mandalorian, smugglers, bounty hunters, church of the force, some dark side cult etc....Ben Solo/Kylo represents the legacy of jedi and sith (hence a lot of old characters) as well as two royal houses (Naboo and Alderaan).... Poe represents rebels like Wedge Antilles, Mon Mothma, Dodona etc.... we don't have other groups represented enough in this generation so I hope they correct it in the case of Rey and Finn.

@panki

I do like the idea that Rey could be from a different group that's not really been represented in the main movies and I would love for them to make her from dark origins as a counter balance to Kylo because his origins are Light (despite that blip by his Grandfather     ).  As @SanghaRen said it would work for good conflict with Leia/Luke/Finn etc and not just from a Reylo perspective.  Not to mention her own internal struggle with accepting her heritage and origins (could work for enticing sympathy for her foe (Kylo) as well - could be better to understand him that way).

My thought popped up because I was looking at some posts on the internet and this person actually put something like 'Rey is a Skywalker because there's only 1 Skywalker in this trilogy' - I mean I just couldn't believe my eyes.  People do such a disservice to Leia because her surname isn't Skywalker - it's as if they forget she is a Skywalker by blood just because she's Organa by name.  And they just can't see the bad guy being a Skywalker - which means they completely forget that a Skywalker was a bad guy in 5 of six movies he was in!!!!  (Yes I count AOTC + ROTS as Anakin bad guy movies!)

@Rogue Rey

I hope LF has noticed that and that they will rectify this. Maybe in the teaser. Have Luke say to a determined looking Kylo on the island "You were our family's only hope, the last Skywalker" Of course, some would still think we would get a "there's another one" as a big twist, but it would at least get the GA to realize or remember that Kylo is a Skywalker. The others who hate his guts will probably never change their minds and say that he is not. Plus he is not a Solo because he killed his father. I wonder if he is allowed to be an Organa or if that's also out.

I never quite understood how people forgive Anakin so easily. It does not compute. In one forum I saw a poster say that it's because the story tells you that he is redeemed, then he is. So if Kylo is written as redeemed, even if it makes no sense, it's ok too. No. Why? Because I hate Kylo. It's one debate you never come out of. I gave up. If people want to see it so narrow, too bad for them. They're missing out.

SanghaRen wrote:@Rogue Rey

I hope LF has noticed that and that they will rectify this. Maybe in the teaser. Have Luke say to a determined looking Kylo on the island "You were our family's only hope, the last Skywalker" Of course, some would still think we would get a "there's another one" as a big twist, but it would at least get the GA to realize or remember that Kylo is a Skywalker. The others who hate his guts will probably never change their minds and say that he is not. Plus he is not a Solo because he killed his father. I wonder if he is allowed to be an Organa or if that's also out.

I never quite understood how people forgive Anakin so easily. It does not compute. In one forum I saw a poster say that it's because the story tells you that he is redeemed, then he is. So if Kylo is written as redeemed, even if it makes no sense, it's ok too. No. Why? Because I hate Kylo. It's one debate you never come out of. I gave up. If people want to see it so narrow, too bad for them. They're missing out.

@SanghaRen

I would like for Luke to make the whole darn thing clear - I honestly think I will scream if Rey's parentage is still not cleared up in VIII or even within the first quarter of the film!!  Yeah I think as you said even if there's a flipping arrow and the words 'LAST SKYWALKER' pointing at Kylo for the entire film some people will still be expecting the 'there's another' twist - we've been there, done that!!  Unfortunately there are many people who do hate Kylo's guts - largely to the killing his Father thing so they will never change their minds.

I don't think the anti Kylo's would ever accept Rey as anything less than a Skywalker and even if they're proven wrong and she's totally unrelated then they'll pan the film, because it didn't go their way.

panki wrote:The lack of spoilers and news is quite boring so I got creative and combined Lucas Graciano's Nightsister (he is an artist for LF) with a sith pike from SWTOR and created what I imagine Rey would be like if she decided to go all dark-side on Ach-to  

@panki

This is inspired! Did you make this yourself?

@Darth Dementor

Thanks

I found a picture of a Nightsister drawn by a LF artist who wore an outfit that looked a lot like what Rey wears in Episode 7......and I also noticed how Rey's scavenger staff resembled a sith pike from the TCW concept art drawings and SWOTR.....so got inspired to photoshop them together and create dark side Rey.

panki wrote:@Darth Dementor

Thanks

I found a picture of a Nightsister drawn by a LF artist who wore an outfit that looked a lot like what Rey wears in Episode 7......and I also noticed how Rey's scavenger staff resembled a sith pike from the TCW concept art drawings and SWOTR.....so got inspired to photoshop them together and create dark side Rey.

I agree with Darth Dementor - I am sure you've been told many times already, but your name is really cool -, it is inspired. Can you photoshop me to make me look like a nightsister? You don't have to change the skin color, I am so pale nowadays, it really looks like I am a Dark Sider. It just occurred to me that I could try to dress up like a nightsister for the SW Convention. I need to study the topic.

You know - just throwing this in the mix now - I really wonder why they re-introduce such a popular character as Thrawn. SW Rebels. The book coming out in April. I suppose that Rey cannot have any link with him or maybe she can, but I am not sure how believable it will look. BDT as son of Thrawn recruited by Snoke? First mission was to kill Rey's parents or to get all the force sensitive kids but the parents escaped and left Rey on Jakku? I am probably in the wrong thread for this speculation. But the parents could still be FO supporters until someone wanted to get their kid.

@Rogue Rey

There are 2 things I'd like clarified in VIII: Rey is not a Skywalker (or a Solo, but that one is just so lame and twisted, I don't think they will put any effort in clearing that one out) and Kylo is on a path to redemption. If these 2 are still in the air, I might actually drop out of fandom because another 2 years of trench warfare, no thanks, plus I think it would make for a better trilogy to focus on a strong story and strong characters than playing mystery games. It gets tiring.

@SanghaRen

I'm just learning how to use photoshop (by trial and error)....I can try to photoshop your picture with a Nightsister costume but I have to warn you in advance that I'm still getting the hang of using it and could make mistakes....that being said, would you prefer a canon costume or one from legends and concept art?

If Rey has dark side origins, I can see her denying her family name when she finds out. It will be her very own moment of, "You cannot deny the truth that is your family." She must have assumed her family were decent people since she waited so long for them to come back.

Harry Potter found out that his father, despite being admired in the wizarding world, was a vicious school bully who made Severus Snape's life hell. His parents were not as good and perfect as he'd believed, and he was able to feel sympathy for Snape after years of simply hating him.

So, I think Rey's lineage will connect her to Kylo, but not in the way Rey Related fans expect. She may very well learn that her parents did something that helped shape Ben into who he is now, and at the very least she will begin to feel compassion for him.

WhatGirl wrote:If Rey has dark side origins, I can see her denying her family name when she finds out. It will be her very own moment of, "You cannot deny the truth that is your family." She must have assumed her family were decent people since she waited so long for them to come back.

Harry Potter found out that his father, despite being admired in the wizarding world, was a vicious school bully who made Severus Snape's life hell. His parents were not as good and perfect as he'd believed, and he was able to feel sympathy for Snape after years of simply hating him.

So, I think Rey's lineage will connect her to Kylo, but not in the way Rey Related fans expect. She may very well learn that her parents did something that helped shape Ben into who he is now, and at the very least she will begin to feel compassion for him.

@WhatGirl

Yes, I think that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. I wish I could like your post a thousand times.

Irina de France wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:If Rey has dark side origins, I can see her denying her family name when she finds out. It will be her very own moment of, "You cannot deny the truth that is your family." She must have assumed her family were decent people since she waited so long for them to come back.

Harry Potter found out that his father, despite being admired in the wizarding world, was a vicious school bully who made Severus Snape's life hell. His parents were not as good and perfect as he'd believed, and he was able to feel sympathy for Snape after years of simply hating him.

So, I think Rey's lineage will connect her to Kylo, but not in the way Rey Related fans expect. She may very well learn that her parents did something that helped shape Ben into who he is now, and at the very least she will begin to feel compassion for him.

@WhatGirl

Yes, I think that's EXACTLY what's going to happen. I wish I could like your post a thousand times.

@Irina de France

Same. As I said in the other topic, the reveal of Rey's lineage is going to be PAINFUL for her. It's the only satisfying way to inject some character development in her story at this point. If her parents are 100% good people, she'll not face any challenge and her hero journey is going to be stagnant.