Kylo could become stronger than Vader

This requires two assumptions, which are not that unreasonable, IMO:
1. Leia has similar force potential to Luke
2. The force potential gap between Anakin and Luke/Leia is similar to the gap between Leia and Kylo.

Now, we know that of regular force users, Anakin had the most potential. More potential than Yoda or Sidious. Lucas himself has said this. However, due to his severe injuries on Mustafar, he lost a lot of his force potential. Vader still was very powerful, but nowhere near as powerful as he could have become. Lucas has also said that Luke came close to reaching Anakin's potential. However, Luke was not the chosen one, and thus didn't reach the full potential of his father. His force potential just wasn't as strong.

Now, if we look at Kylo, we can assume that at two generations removed from the chosen one, Kylo has great force potential, a little less than Luke/Leia and less still than Anakin. However, Anakin lost a lot of force potential, and so we could also assume that Luke surpassed the power of Vader. As long as he doesn't endure and serious injuries, Kylo could also surpass Vader in terms of power. However, I think Luke is probably the only one that can train him to that level. If Snoke is capable, I don't think he's willing.

I don't know if this is me just misreading but I got the impression from TFA that Kylo is already stronger than Vader! He has force powers we've never seen before. Maybe it's just down to each person's definition of 'strength' and whether emotion is a weakness or a good thing when it comes to channeling power. If Kylo can come to accept his emotions and be at peace with himself, he and Rey could be the strongest force users the GFFA has ever seen.

I think he's already more powerful than his grandpa but to me it's a mystery why he's afraid that he will be as "strong" as Vader

Now I haven't seen them myself, but weren't there trading cards out that claimed Rey and Kylo were the strongest force users out there?

I think he's so powerful that he loses control of his power, where Vader could control the force with fine-tuned prowess.

Kylo's volatile temper makes him powerful but unpredictable. I also think Kylo is hungry for mastery in the force where Anakin seemed more content and established once he became Vader (in OT at least).

Maria Antonietta wrote:I think he's already more powerful than his grandpa but to me it's a mystery why he's afraid that he will be as "strong" as Vader

@Maria Antonietta

Right? He is "afraid he will never be as strong as Darth Vader." But he also tells Han: "I know what I have to do, I just don't know if I have the strength to do it." But in that moment he is trying to "succeed" where Vader "failed." Vader was "weak" because of "sentiment." So, Kylo Ren's shouldn't Kylo Ren's greatest fear have been that he isn't "stronger" than Vader? And then, by this definition of strength, he was. He actually had the "strength" to kill Han.

But I guess this topic is talking more about raw force power, rather than whatever "strength" Kylo was talking about on the bridge. I wonder what "strength" Rey was talking about when she said he was afraid he'd never be as strong as Darth Vader. There are so many different definitions of strength and they can be debated endlessly.

And if we're talking just plain force powers, this Pablo tweet seems to suggest Kylo being more powerful in at least this way.

source

edit
@MissG Here they are! They're just some German trading cards, but still very interesting!


source: starwarsnonsense

Luke Browalker wrote:This requires two assumptions, which are not that unreasonable, IMO:
1. Leia has similar force potential to Luke
2. The force potential gap between Anakin and Luke/Leia is similar to the gap between Leia and Kylo.

Now,  we know that of regular force users, Anakin had the most potential. More potential than Yoda or Sidious. Lucas himself has said this. However, due to his severe injuries on Mustafar, he lost a lot of his force potential. Vader still was very powerful,  but nowhere near as powerful as he could have become.  Lucas has also said that Luke came close to reaching Anakin's potential. However,  Luke was not the chosen one,  and thus didn't reach the full potential of his father.  His force potential just wasn't as strong.

Now, if we look at Kylo, we can assume that at two generations removed from the chosen one,  Kylo has great force potential, a little less than Luke/Leia and less still than Anakin. However, Anakin lost a lot of force potential, and so we could also assume that Luke surpassed the power of Vader. As long as he doesn't endure and serious injuries, Kylo could also surpass Vader in terms of power. However,  I think Luke is probably the only one that can train him to that level.  If Snoke is capable, I don't think he's willing.

@Luke Browalker

Great thread. I want to point out that Snoke sees Kylo as "the ideal embodiment of the Force, a focal point of both light and dark side" That tells me that Kylo is unique and maybe even stronger than Anakin who was the son of the Force but not the ideal embodiment of the Force. When you think about it, embodiment of the Force is greater than strong with the Force. There has to be a reason why Kylo is defined as "ideal embodiment of the Force" not just unusually strong with it, huge midichlorian count, etc. 

Now what I'm thinking is this. What if Kylo is the product of the balance of the Force that Anakin brought when he destroyed the Sith? There must be the reason why he's different. And sure enough, he was born shortly after the Balance of the Force event.

vaderito wrote:

Luke Browalker wrote:This requires two assumptions, which are not that unreasonable, IMO:
1. Leia has similar force potential to Luke
2. The force potential gap between Anakin and Luke/Leia is similar to the gap between Leia and Kylo.

Now,  we know that of regular force users, Anakin had the most potential. More potential than Yoda or Sidious. Lucas himself has said this. However, due to his severe injuries on Mustafar, he lost a lot of his force potential. Vader still was very powerful,  but nowhere near as powerful as he could have become.  Lucas has also said that Luke came close to reaching Anakin's potential. However,  Luke was not the chosen one,  and thus didn't reach the full potential of his father.  His force potential just wasn't as strong.

Now, if we look at Kylo, we can assume that at two generations removed from the chosen one,  Kylo has great force potential, a little less than Luke/Leia and less still than Anakin. However, Anakin lost a lot of force potential, and so we could also assume that Luke surpassed the power of Vader. As long as he doesn't endure and serious injuries, Kylo could also surpass Vader in terms of power. However,  I think Luke is probably the only one that can train him to that level.  If Snoke is capable, I don't think he's willing.

@Luke Browalker

Great thread. I want to point out that Snoke sees Kylo as "the ideal embodiment of the Force, a focal point of both light and dark side" That tells me that Kylo is unique and maybe even stronger than Anakin who was the son of the Force but not the ideal embodiment of the Force. When you think about it, embodiment of the Force is greater than strong with the Force. There has to be a reason why Kylo is defined as "ideal embodiment of the Force" not just unusually strong with it, huge midichlorian count, etc. 

Now what I'm thinking is this. What if Kylo is the product of the balance of the Force that Anakin brought when he destroyed the Sith? There must be the reason why he's different. And sure enough, he was born shortly after the Balance of the Force event.

@vaderito

Ohhh wow!!!!! That is a really brilliant thought! :-)

vaderito wrote:

Luke Browalker wrote:This requires two assumptions, which are not that unreasonable, IMO:
1. Leia has similar force potential to Luke
2. The force potential gap between Anakin and Luke/Leia is similar to the gap between Leia and Kylo.

Now,  we know that of regular force users, Anakin had the most potential. More potential than Yoda or Sidious. Lucas himself has said this. However, due to his severe injuries on Mustafar, he lost a lot of his force potential. Vader still was very powerful,  but nowhere near as powerful as he could have become.  Lucas has also said that Luke came close to reaching Anakin's potential. However,  Luke was not the chosen one,  and thus didn't reach the full potential of his father.  His force potential just wasn't as strong.

Now, if we look at Kylo, we can assume that at two generations removed from the chosen one,  Kylo has great force potential, a little less than Luke/Leia and less still than Anakin. However, Anakin lost a lot of force potential, and so we could also assume that Luke surpassed the power of Vader. As long as he doesn't endure and serious injuries, Kylo could also surpass Vader in terms of power. However,  I think Luke is probably the only one that can train him to that level.  If Snoke is capable, I don't think he's willing.

@Luke Browalker

Great thread. I want to point out that Snoke sees Kylo as "the ideal embodiment of the Force, a focal point of both light and dark side" That tells me that Kylo is unique and maybe even stronger than Anakin who was the son of the Force but not the ideal embodiment of the Force. When you think about it, embodiment of the Force is greater than strong with the Force. There has to be a reason why Kylo is defined as "ideal embodiment of the Force" not just unusually strong with it, huge midichlorian count, etc. 

Now what I'm thinking is this. What if Kylo is the product of the balance of the Force that Anakin brought when he destroyed the Sith? There must be the reason why he's different. And sure enough, he was born shortly after the Balance of the Force event.

@vaderito

Bolded: now that is some food for thought.

vaderito wrote:What if Kylo is the product of the balance of the Force that Anakin brought when he destroyed the Sith? There must be the reason why he's different. And sure enough, he was born shortly after the Balance of the Force event.

I wanna say somebody on here (maybe @Slade?) has brought up something to the effect that he feels so out of control because of all the energy from the Force after that event pouring into him. Would be very interesting if it gets addressed and especially if it's brought up how Rey turns up a few years later, when he's about 8-9 years old.

@SoloSideCousin @Armadeus VIII should reveal if I'm onto something or not because what better place to reveal it but Jedi Eden and what better person to do it but Angry God Luke? Events and characters line up for some explosive reveals that will have nothing to do with family relations but everything to do with revising what we knew about the Force, Jedi, etc.

First off, let's not get carried away. Neither Kylo nor Rey are more powerful than Luke. That's just crazy talk. If we ignore all the things that George Lucas himself said about Luke, then let's not forget that even Snoke is scared of Luke. If there was a saber fight, Luke would toy with either of them.

I don't think neither Kylo nor Rey have as much force potential as Luke, who was the son of the chosen one, and certainly not as much as Anakin, but Kylo has more potential than Vader.

Luke Browalker wrote:First off, let's not get carried away.  Neither Kylo nor Rey are more powerful than Luke. That's just crazy talk.  If we ignore all the things that George Lucas himself said about Luke, then let's not forget that even Snoke is scared of Luke.  If there was a saber fight, Luke would toy with either of them.  

I don't think neither Kylo nor Rey have as much force potential as Luke, who was the son of the chosen one, and certainly not as much as Anakin, but Kylo has more potential than Vader.

@Luke Browalker

Absolutely. At this point Luke is the most powerful Force user in the history of the galaxy (Lucas' words). He wouldn't even need a lightsaber to toy with them, just use the Force to (if I may quote Mike Carey's Lucifer comic) 'put them among the things that were.'

But undoubtedly the potential is there.

vaderito wrote:@SoloSideCousin @Armadeus VIII should reveal if I'm onto something or not because what better place to reveal it but Jedi Eden and what better person to do it but Angry God Luke? Events and characters line up for some explosive reveals that will have nothing to do with family relations but everything to do with revising what we knew about the Force, Jedi, etc.

@vaderito

The bolded is precisely what I've come to hope for from the ST.

The thing I'm most impatient for about VIII is Luke's side of the story, finally finding out exactly what he's been doing since VI.

Usually going back to the beginning (first Jedi Temple) entails a search for a better understanding of something you thought you knew so well.

Armadeus wrote:

Luke Browalker wrote:First off, let's not get carried away.  Neither Kylo nor Rey are more powerful than Luke. That's just crazy talk.  If we ignore all the things that George Lucas himself said about Luke, then let's not forget that even Snoke is scared of Luke.  If there was a saber fight, Luke would toy with either of them.  

I don't think neither Kylo nor Rey have as much force potential as Luke, who was the son of the chosen one, and certainly not as much as Anakin, but Kylo has more potential than Vader.

@Luke Browalker

Absolutely. At this point Luke is the most powerful Force user in the history of the galaxy (Lucas' words). He wouldn't even need a lightsaber to toy with them, just use the Force to (if I may quote Mike Carey's Lucifer comic) 'put them among the things that were.'

But undoubtedly the potential is there.

@Armadeus

This. Luke wasn't his current level of power when he was young. So it's only natural that Kylo and Rey have potential to surpass that but that doesn't mean they know how to use that potential to get there. So Luke wins cause power + know-how. Of course he can kick their butts cause he can control his power while they don't know what they can do or how to control it. We've seen that Kylo the Blaster Stopper totally flopped on SKB because he was unfocused, deranged and out of control of his emotions, his power, his everything. he couldn't freeze Rey but that attempt turned into a standard Force push, he couldn't pull a LS out of snow, lol. Yeah.

Honestly I'm just waiting for Luke to yell at the both of them that he knows what they're up to when they're supposedly 'feeling the Force' together about how hard things were back in his day, how Obi-Wan used to make him walk 10 miles through the snow, and to get off of his lawn.

vaderito wrote:

Luke Browalker wrote:This requires two assumptions, which are not that unreasonable, IMO:
1. Leia has similar force potential to Luke
2. The force potential gap between Anakin and Luke/Leia is similar to the gap between Leia and Kylo.

Now,  we know that of regular force users, Anakin had the most potential. More potential than Yoda or Sidious. Lucas himself has said this. However, due to his severe injuries on Mustafar, he lost a lot of his force potential. Vader still was very powerful,  but nowhere near as powerful as he could have become.  Lucas has also said that Luke came close to reaching Anakin's potential. However,  Luke was not the chosen one,  and thus didn't reach the full potential of his father.  His force potential just wasn't as strong.

Now, if we look at Kylo, we can assume that at two generations removed from the chosen one,  Kylo has great force potential, a little less than Luke/Leia and less still than Anakin. However, Anakin lost a lot of force potential, and so we could also assume that Luke surpassed the power of Vader. As long as he doesn't endure and serious injuries, Kylo could also surpass Vader in terms of power. However,  I think Luke is probably the only one that can train him to that level.  If Snoke is capable, I don't think he's willing.

@Luke Browalker

Great thread. I want to point out that Snoke sees Kylo as "the ideal embodiment of the Force, a focal point of both light and dark side" That tells me that Kylo is unique and maybe even stronger than Anakin who was the son of the Force but not the ideal embodiment of the Force. When you think about it, embodiment of the Force is greater than strong with the Force. There has to be a reason why Kylo is defined as "ideal embodiment of the Force" not just unusually strong with it, huge midichlorian count, etc. 

Now what I'm thinking is this. What if Kylo is the product of the balance of the Force that Anakin brought when he destroyed the Sith? There must be the reason why he's different. And sure enough, he was born shortly after the Balance of the Force event.

@vaderito

Ben was certainly conceived just a few months after that Force balancing event.

That would certainly be a more compelling reason to make Ben's character 29 years old than Leia's birth control failing a few months after the Battle of Endor or to give Lucasfilms/Disney an extra chunk of time for Luke/Ben comic books.

I think there was another tweet exchange with Pablo where someone said that a friend (I think) said that Kylo was stronger than Vader and Pablo answered that Kylo was capable of doing things never seen before, that this was the story, but assuming that he was stronger than Vader was quite a leap. I think in general Pablo does not go into who is stronger.

Personally, I also think that in terms of raw power and potential, Kylo and Rey have more of it. Why? Like others I believe that the explanation could be part of the story in VIII and we could be in for some surprises and get a revisitation of what we think we know about the Force, where it comes from, how it works, etc. I am really looking forward to it and hope they will dare to take that risk.

And I am the same opinion as some here that the difference between Kylo (and Rey) and Luke or Vader is the control of the Force. The typical young and reckless versus the wise and experienced. And sometimes you don't even need the Force just wit. I think Kylo is still in the "I can do whatever I want" (-> "I can take whatever I want" ) place and trying to punch his way through so to speak. Maybe refraining from using the Force is also a lesson to learn. Rey? We'll see if she gets a sudden need for punching her way through too. She certainly felt that need with Kylo in the snow battle. Difficult to know at that stage how much she wants to embrace her powers.

Speaking of Vader being more settled in his use of the Force. I wondered lately why that is. Typically Dark Side users are power hungry and run into fits of anger. His fits of anger were quite controlled and the power hungriness was not apparent. Between angry Anakin and older Vader there is quite a difference. It was like being bad was merely a job at that point. Like the experienced worker who lost his motivation and only uses his skills at the very low level required to do his job. Might be that he actually never reached his full potential.

I think @vaderito could be right of the "being born after the balance of the Force event"
Also think Rey falls in the same category as well.

Moreover: I do think that could be the main reason of Luke failed to train Kylo (because Jedi traditional teachnigs were not enough for somebody born with both sides equal.

It's an interesting idea, the Force being all balanced right after Endor. What would that mean for anyone born FS after that? Maybe someone like Kylo would be strongly split, Rey (born ten years later) perhaps less so...but what about the kids Luke was training? Maybe there were always problems because none of them were fully light or dark.

Jakku wrote:It's an interesting idea, the Force being all balanced right after Endor. What would that mean for anyone born FS after that?  Maybe someone like Kylo would be strongly split, Rey (born ten years later) perhaps less so...but what about the kids Luke was training? Maybe there were always problems because none of them were fully light or dark.

@Jakku

Kids is the word. What if they weren't kids? Think about it. Luke was successfully trained as an adult. he had no reason to snatch babies before they develop attachment. So it's possible that he trained adult FS considering that his followers were called "acolytes". That sounds adult to me. They weren't called students.

I like @vaderito 's take on "being born after the balance of the Force event" explaining why Kylo is different than Anakin and Luke. Still, I have to say, one would assume that someone born in this force balance time would be more stable, no? It's like the universe does not like stability. Or... Kylo was stable until Rey was born and then he unraveled because the balance was tipped again. And feeling this struggle, he went after the Jedi, thinking that if he killed them, the balance in the Force would be restored and he would himself regain this state of balance he had as a child. Maybe Snoke fed him this theory. Whatever way it always sounds like a curse. Can you imagine Rey being told that she is the reason for the the unbalance in the force and Kylo's fall? That'd be dark. But obviously there would be another solution : new (grey) Jedi.

@vaderito
True. Why would Luke fetch kids when he was trained himself as a kid? I agree with you that it makes more sense he was training adults or maybe teenagers, but not kids.

SanghaRen wrote:I like @vaderito 's take on "being born after the balance of the Force event" explaining why Kylo is different than Anakin and Luke. Still, I have to say, one would assume that someone born in this force balance time would be more stable, no? It's like the universe does not like stability. Or... Kylo was stable until Rey was born and then he unraveled because the balance was tipped again. And feeling this struggle, he went after the Jedi, thinking that if he killed them, the balance in the Force would be restored and he would himself regain this state of balance he had as a child. Maybe Snoke fed him this theory. Whatever way it always sounds like a curse. Can you imagine Rey being told that she is the reason for the the unbalance in the force and Kylo's fall? That'd be dark. But obviously there would be another solution : new (grey) Jedi.

@vaderito
True. Why would Luke fetch kids when he was trained himself as a kid? I agree with you that it makes more sense he was training adults or maybe teenagers, but not kids.

@SanghaRen

I also think Luke's apprentices were older than most people are assuming. If you're starting a fledgling order, you're gonna want to start with people who can already more or less look after themselves. Maybe he recruited with the help of the Church of the Force.

@SanghaRen Kylo was manipulated by Snoke. That could have created disbalance.

Maybe that's why Han referred to "One apprentice...a boy"? Perhaps Kylo was the kid among all his trainees?

So, if Luke was training adults who retained attachments to family, friends, lovers, children...how would that work?