Discussion: Luke Skywalker in TLJ

Ben can and perhaps should apologize to everybody except Luke as far as I'm concerned. I think the burden of amends goes very powerfully from Luke to Ben and not vice versa. Expressing apology for what he perhaps did to other students of Luke's still isn't about apologizing to Luke.

First of all.............where did you get that amazing gif!! Secondly....I really want to know exactly what happened to the other students? Were they murdered....or did Ben and the others end up fighting them to the death. I remember reading that special effects were involved in creating props of extinguished lightsabres, I am sure I saw some by the bodies in Luke's flashback. If that's the case then a fight against armed padawans is very different to Anakin's murder of children.

Does anyone information about Battelfront II? My son played with it and says he saw that scene.
I have to ask him to show it to me. He said it was a confusing scene. Ben turned against Luke, there was a fight, some guys took the parts of Ben and the other parts of Luke. If I understood correctly, the first order arrived, took the gray guys and killed the others.
After that scene he told me, for him, Kylo Ren is good and his uncle bad. But do not take this story for good. That day my son had too many things to tell me and could have made a soup instead of the summary.

motherofpearl1 wrote:First of all.............where did you get that amazing gif!! Secondly....I really want to know exactly what happened to the other students? Were they murdered....or did Ben and the others end up fighting them to the death. I remember reading that special effects were involved in creating props of extinguished lightsabres, I am sure I saw some by the bodies in Luke's flashback. If that's the case then a fight against armed padawans is very different to Anakin's murder of children.

@motherofpearl1

All credit to the gif's amazing artist!

As for Luke's students, there's still a lot of questions there. The whole thing is sounding more like a battle than a massacre to me, especially when a handful of the students sided with Ben. I don't think it was a murder of children. I don't remember exactly, but wasn't there something in the visual dictionary or somewhere that suggested Luke's students, or at least some of them, weren't kids?

@ZioRen The main thing that I remember about Luke's students from the Visual Dictionary was that they were followers Luke met while in his jedi pilgrimages. So there's a good chance they might be either Ben's age or older.

rawpowah wrote:@ZioRen The main thing that I remember about Luke's students from the Visual Dictionary was that they were followers Luke met while in his jedi pilgrimages. So there's a good chance they might be either Ben's age or older.

@rawpowah

After all of the "Kylo killed children" hysteria surrounding the Jedi temple incident, it'd be pretty great if it turned out that Ben was the youngest of them.

@ZioRen If we assume a fight broke out between the students because some believed Luke over Ben, I feel like they kind of have to be either Ben's age or older. I can't imagine a bunch of 5 year old kids stabbing each other.

Another thing is that just hit me right now: Luke tells Rey that Ben slaughtered half the students and took the rest with him. He says this in the same scene where he's flat out lying to her about the incident at the jedi school. Why do we believe that Luke is telling the truth in this instance as well? What if they all left with Kylo, and Luke is lying to save face? Or what if Kylo never actually killed all or any of them and the students simply fought each other?

Nah, something's fishy and I won't be surprised if IX delivers another twist about Luke's academy.

He also says that Kylo must have thought Luke was dead, but that's a contradiction (Kylo knows full well that Luke is alive, otherwise he wouldn't be looking for the map). Luke cut himself from the force, yet Kylo is still looking for him certain that he's alive, despite not sensing him through the Force anymore. Which begs the question: when and why did Kylo decide that he had to kill Luke, and how much of that desire can be attributed to Snoke? After all, we know from TLJ that Snoke wanted to kill Luke and believed only Kylo could do it.

@rawpowah I agree with you !!!!

To reply to rawpowah I've added some numbers lol hope that's okay.

rawpowah wrote:@ZioRen If we assume a fight broke out between the students because some believed Luke over Ben, I feel like they kind of have to be either Ben's age or older. I can't imagine a bunch of 5 year old kids stabbing each other.

(1)Another thing is that just hit me right now: Luke tells Rey that Ben slaughtered half the students and took the rest with him. He says this in the same scene where he's flat out lying to her about the incident at the jedi school. Why do we believe that Luke is telling the truth in this instance as well? What if they all left with Kylo, and Luke is lying to save face? Or what if Kylo never actually killed all or any of them and the students simply fought each other?

(2)Nah, something's fishy and I won't be surprised if IX delivers another twist about Luke's academy.

(3)He also says that Kylo must have thought Luke was dead, but that's a contradiction (Kylo knows full well that Luke is alive, otherwise he wouldn't be looking for the map). Luke cut himself from the force, yet Kylo is still looking for him certain that he's alive, despite not sensing him through the Force anymore. Which begs the question: when and why did Kylo decide that he had to kill Luke, and how much of that desire can be attributed to Snoke? After all, we know from TLJ that Snoke wanted to kill Luke and believed only Kylo could do it.

@rawpowah

Hiya! Yeah really interesting thoughts to pick up here for my daily dose of SW haaaa.
regarding (1), I figure this is Luke waking from unconsciousness and interpreting what was left behind - he doesn't know exactly what went down. And I don't think this would be a stretch. Maybe at that time it was coloured by the darkness he had seen in Ben, and I think its very possible that Luke made yet another assumption against Ben there.
(2) yeah I really hope this is resolved in IX! I like the idea of Ben bringing down the building on Luke, thinking he was dead.. the rest of the padawans wake - half believe Ben, the other half defend or avenge Luke.. and thus it's a big brawl that was a tragic further consequence of a set of lousy circumstances!

(3) I figured it was just in the immediate aftermath of the fight that Kylo/Ben thought Luke was dead.. adrenaline, fighting other padawans and escape would have not given him much of a chance to focus and see if Luke was alive.. I figure soon after it was revealed Luke was still alive. Maybe the FO went back to collect the body of Luke and found him gone.. R2D2 gone.. and Snoke and Kylo/Ben were able to put two and two together - even if Luke had immediately cut himself off from the force.. does that work?

I think killing Luke was a mutual goal of both Snoke and Kylo/Ben. Snoke fed off Kylo/Ben's hate for Luke - and channeled Kylo/Ben's work into finding him and killing him..

Oh and from what I can see in TLJ visual dictionary I can't work out the padawan's ages - on page 46 it talks about Luke's going on a quest to find Jedi knowledge, and answers to his questions- this went on for years with the help of LST. Then, 'during his lengthy journey, Skywalker gathered disciples who would go on to become his first true students' [the first student was Leia but that was short lived so not a true student].

I noticed in TLJ movie Luke says he took Ben and a dozen students and began to train them.... soo about 13 students in all.. interesting that he calls them students not padawans..

going back to (1) page 47 says " Skywalker kept the location of his Jedi training temple a secret, known only to members of his burgeoning Order. When he found it ablaze, the grounds littered by slaughtered students, he knew the betrayal came from within. It was his nephew, consumed by darkness, who had led its destruction. The wider galaxy would not know of this calamity for years to come."
-interesting choice of words here.. 'led its destruction' hmmm..

I came across this the other day on the starwars databank - in the snoke section:
"A master of the Force and a seeker of arcane lore, Snoke seduced young Ben Solo when the Force-sensitive boy desperately needed a teacher. Snoke’s influence would prove critical when Luke Skywalker finally agreed to make Ben one of his new Jedi apprentices. Ben destroyed Luke’s temple, left with several of his students, and slaughtered the rest. Snoke then became his new master."
this was the first time I'd seen written anywhere that Ben left with 'several of his students' - same wording as the movie.. interesting to see this showing up again..
Anyway.. this thread is about Luke lol.

I've used up my SW time allotment (lol!) on other threads lately - there's been so much interesting discussion it's hard to choose!

I would love to come back to this in more detail and explore what could have been going on with Luke - and to talk about some of the aspects of his story that do not gel for some viewers. But for now, I just wanted to say something about the difference between Luke and Vader vs Luke and Kylo/Ben.
That Luke was so open to Vader's redemption and loved him unconditionally can seem inconsistent with how we see Luke later pretty much give up on Kylo/Ben after the jedi temple slaughter... For me, the big difference here that explains it is the context.
With Vader, Luke had zero involvement in his fall to the dark side.
With Kylo/Ben, there is a mass of competing issues and emotions going on that make the situation much more complex than it was with Vader.
Luke was deeply involved and even partly responsible for Kylo/Ben's fall to the extreme dark side and betrayal - Luke stuffed up. Big time.
Also, Luke was responsible for the students at his academy and they were slaughtered because of his mistakes..
And.. Luke carried the responsibility of passing on what he learned to a new generation of jedi and he had failed in that too.. the legacy of the whole order/religion had rested on his shoulders and he had failed. With Vader.. much simpler!
Then, there is also how he had failed Han and Leia on top of all this too.. because they had trusted him with their son! Ohhh boy..
All of this is jumbled up and his failure, his guilt - it all complicates his thoughts, reactions, and his love for his nephew.
I know this is not the experience of all - but for me I think Luke's story works as a whole.
Luke starts off in ANH a simple guy... but he winds up in TLJ being very complicated indeed.

Luke is IMHO full of contradictory love and loathing for the Jedi.. but I don't have time to get into that right now and should (lol) get on with my day here. Ahhh I think I'm in a different time zone to most of you! Oh well.. bye!

I'm pretty sure that what went down is that people didn't believe Ben's version of the story and went after him, and Ben and the rest of students fought them in self-defense. It was pretty obvious to me from my first viewing. And Luke doesn't really know what happened while he was under that pile of rubble.

Irina de France wrote:I'm pretty sure that what went down is that people didn't believe Ben's version of the story and went after him, and Ben and the rest of students fought them in self-defense. It was pretty obvious to me from my first viewing. And Luke doesn't really know what happened while he was under that pile of rubble.

@Irina de France

Same. And as to whether any of the students were actually slaughtered...the answer is "yes". You can see around a half dozen or so bodies laying on the ground in the temple destruction flashback in TLJ.

One theory that I've read and that I think fits with what we know so far (and sets up an interesting dynamic in IX) is that some of Luke's students were "plants" placed there by Snoke. These were the students who went with Ben, and they were already either KoR at the time that they joined Luke's temple or they went on to become the KoR. I like this theory for several reasons:

* It shows that Snoke's seduction of Ben went beyond messing with his mind; he went so far as to place people in what should have been a "safe space" to likely further corrupt Ben.
* It'll call into question who the KoR are loyal to in IX. If they were originally loyal to Snoke, they're probably not going to side with Ben if/when there's a split in the FO in IX.

@ISeeAnIsland - I'm holding out hope that we get something like students who were plants b/c of Kasdan's WGA talk after TFA came out. Where he talked about his different characters and mentioned how Matty Walker in Body Heat has her entire con/end game planned out before she even approaches Ned. We know via Hux that Snoke is very shrewd in understanding peoples' weaknesses and playing them against their selves and against each other. And it's feasible given how TLJ ends that Ben will become even more isolated in the FO by his deadly rivalry with Hux, the secret he has with Rey (which JJ would be a fool to not play on the tension in that scenario), and how seizing power was one of his not well thought out impulsive decisions. You have the KoR finally show up and it could further heighten his isolation/tension as well as give more context to how he ended up in that situation to begin with.

OTOH - there was plenty of talk about the Seven Samurai during the TFA press tour, so they could run with that scenario where they are a scrappy band helping the downtrodden in a face off against the FO. But there've been so many version of the Magnificant Seven already, it's not like audiences haven't seen that before.

If the KoR were Snoke plants all along, it would certainly explain why Snoke isn't as interested in them as he is in Ben Solo. Sure Ben has that mighty Skywalker blood, but it's kind of weird Snoke doesn't seem to care about controlling these other force-sensitive students... when his whole spiel is about controlling and manipulating young people and playing them against each other.

Or maybe they were genuinely Luke's followers at first and drank Snoke's kool aid (without displaying Kylo's conflict).


Also, it's clear in the movies that Kylo doesn't have a good support system. If the KoR and him all had genuine friendships, then he'd probably be a lot more stable. But if the relationships are a lot more complicated than that, then it would certainly explain some of Kylo's issues. And I'd also assume Snoke would do anything in his power to prevent Kylo from having any true allies in the FO. Having Kylo and all the KoR/Luke's former students be BBFs 5ever in the movie is actually just as boring as the entire Resistance having no conflict and painting each other's nails during slumber parties in IX.

Of course, assuming the theory that Luke's students = KoR is true and they appear in IX. And, most importantly imo, assuming that Snoke's minions would be able to hide their intent from Jedi Master Luke Skywalker. Wouldn't Luke have been able to sense some darkness in them? Or did he confuse it with Ben because of Snoke being so powerful and crafty?

@rawpowah   - I agree! if the KOR had been plants I think it would have been likely Luke would have sensed it. I figure with Kylo/Ben Luke was taken by surprise because he was his nephew... I like your thoughts on the KOR and Kylo - but this isn't the thread for this discussion lol.

So a random Luke query here..
A while ago I came across this entry on the SW databank:

I find it so random - it's very tangential where it fits in his bio - I'm wondering: why has the databank chosen to include this in Luke's bio gallery?
Anyone know anything about this?!
I wonder if this cryptographer is going to be important somehow...

That’s interesting. A cryptographer . I don’t think this is just random at all and am sure this is gonna come up as the way the Databank is designed nothing is coincidental and all feeds into the larger picture.

I love how the video points out that every Luke "apologist" only look at Kylo's version but ignore the final version that shows there was no one sole bad guy, but merely a mistake.

That just because Luke didn't give into the darkness to strike down Vader doesn't mean he was never going to have bad thoughts ever again, in his journey. That's not how human being are. Just because someone does the right thing and hour ago doesn't mean they won't make the wrong decision fifteen minutes from now.

People are fallible and it's ok. No one is perfect they just need to live their life as best as they can.

Great video that argues why TLJ's portrayal of Luke is on point. He went to Ach-To to go back to the naive farm boy he was before he became a Jedi. Put so bluntly I can't believe I didn't notice he was just like the Luke we saw in ANH & ESB; whiny and unsure then headstrong with out thinking through the consequences of his actions until it was too late (when he thought about killing Ben).

And yes he would contemplate killing a family member in a moment of anger and fear. See how he gave into those feelings and almost killed Vader, his father when The Dark Overlord pushed the right buttons. The part that really hit me was when the elder Skywalker was sensing his nephews dark side he was also sensing his own. That's what really sparked him to draw his weapon upon his apprentice.

One of the best videos reflecting Lukes arc in TLJ. Explores the failure of the Jedi and Lukes relationship with Ben. Very emotional!

Riri wrote:One of the best videos reflecting Lukes arc in TLJ. Explores the failure of the Jedi and Lukes relationship with Ben. Very emotional!

@Riri

I have tears in my eyes Riri, what an amazing vid - thanks so much for sharing! the edits are amazing, Yoda's perspective  - so powerful!!!
Kudos to the creators! Everyone must watch this!!!!
I love how it brings together the whole story across all the movies- when we can finally bring the story of IX into the picture it is going to be so satisfying!!!

This vid is such a beautiful tribute to Luke's character, I loved how his story concluded in TLJ.
for fans who love Luke and are disappointed, I hope in time they will  change their mind and enjoy his journey - and his triumphant end.

I think if they use luke as a FG in IX it is going to be very minimally done. He's story has come to a satisfying end.. and he is such an iconic character it can be a challenge to ensure he doesn't overshadow the ST characters. It is their story now, not his.. His chapters have been written.

The starwars databank blurb that summarises the Luke skywalker entry has been updated with a few new and important sentences..
From feb 2018:


Updated to:


What caught my eye is the emphasis on the 'final' and momentous role he had to play with his actions at the end of the TLJ. This suggests Luke's story is finished..
Anyone have any thoughts or insights about this they'd like to share?

DeeBee wrote:

Riri wrote:One of the best videos reflecting Lukes arc in TLJ. Explores the failure of the Jedi and Lukes relationship with Ben. Very emotional!

@Riri

I have tears in my eyes Riri, what an amazing vid - thanks so much for sharing! the edits are amazing, Yoda's perspective  - so powerful!!!
Kudos to the creators! Everyone must watch this!!!!
I love how it brings together the whole story across all the movies- when we can finally bring the story of IX into the picture it is going to be so satisfying!!!

This vid is such a beautiful tribute to Luke's character, I loved how his story concluded in TLJ.
for fans who love Luke and are disappointed, I hope in time they will  change their mind and enjoy his journey - and his triumphant end.

I think if they use luke as a FG in IX it is going to be very minimally done. He's story has come to a satisfying end.. and he is such an iconic character it can be a challenge to ensure he doesn't overshadow the ST characters. It is their story now, not his.. His chapters have been written.

The starwars databank blurb that summarises the Luke skywalker entry has been updated with a few new and important sentences..
From feb 2018:


Updated to:


What caught my eye is the emphasis on the 'final' and momentous role he had to play with his actions at the end of the TLJ. This suggests Luke's story is finished..
Anyone have any thoughts or insights about this they'd like to share?

@DeeBee

I actually think that there is a minority shot that Luke won't come back. The last line to Kylo/Ben can certainly be read as "FG in IX," but I think that there is a small chance that the executives are done with Luke.

The character takes a lot of air out of the room and garners outsized attention, especially from hardcore fans. I mean the movie took a big hit due to what happened with Luke. LF may have been aware to some extent of that hit, and maybe they decided to just take it all at once in TLJ, and then move on. IOW, if Luke's not there, there is no more ammunition for "not my Luke" nonsense which would drag down the buzz around the next film. People either have turned on the franchise or they haven't. Bringing Luke back to give Kylo advice or whatever, in a way could just prolong the life-sucking aspect of the "not my Luke" complaints.

Also, just storywise, Luke needs to get out of the way, and Ben and Rey need to move on alone. There is certainly a possibility for that Dumbledore between-life-and-death moment, but that moment would most likely be with Kylo, who no matter what will have some bad blood with Luke. I mean maybe it could work, but it may not be as seamless as Dumbledore and Harry, since no one tried to kill the other there.

I don't know what they want to do, but in some respects it might be for the best to just let Luke go.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

I don't know what they want to do, but in some respects it might be for the best to just let Luke go.

@SoloSideCousin

I agree- I know it's an unpopular opinion but Luke saying "see you around kid" doesn't necessarily means he appears to Kylo as FG.
It can mean he is watching him and maybe appearing at the very end RotJ-style when all is resolved.

I guess we'll see.

Night Huntress wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

I don't know what they want to do, but in some respects it might be for the best to just let Luke go.

@SoloSideCousin

I agree- I know it's an unpopular opinion but Luke saying "see you around kid" doesn't necessarily means he appears to Kylo as FG.
It can mean he is watching him and maybe appearing at the very end RotJ-style when all is resolved.

I guess we'll see.

@Night Huntress

I agree. I don't think that line has to.be a slam-dunk for Luke to come back as an FG. I mean Luke went out in a pretty spectacular way (more than I thought he deserved given the atrocious effect his actions had on Ben Solo, and not just the contemplating murder, but the continued lying about it years later, and worst of all, not telling Leia and Ham the truth before he left town). Having him come back to be all shimmery and to sit on a seat next to Rey or Ben might seem anti-climatic. The ROTJ "watching over" ending could work well though.

I do think Luke will be back in one or two scenes like Obi Wan and Yoda in the OT because there would need to be some kind of resolution between him and Ben, I can imagine how powerful that scene will be with Adam and Mark's acting talents!

@SoloSideCousin If we were to get a Dumbledore-between-life-and-death moment, I would rather it be between Ben and Han, but I don't know how that is possible though, since Han isn't force sensitive and there's no sign that Harrison is coming back for a cameo. LF would have to introduce some new force thing or something.

Anyway, I too hope there's not much Luke in IX unless it's a scene or two to properly apologize to Ben and get some closure. It might be necessary if Leia is not around.

rawpowah wrote:@SoloSideCousin If we were to get a Dumbledore-between-life-and-death moment, I would rather it be between Ben and Han, but I don't know how that is possible though, since Han isn't force sensitive and there's no sign that Harrison is coming back for a cameo. LF would have to introduce some new force thing or something.

Anyway, I too hope there's not much Luke in IX unless it's a scene or two to properly apologize to Ben and get some closure. It might be necessary if Leia is not around.

@rawpowah

Absolutely! I desperately want that Han and Ben meet-up. We had so little time with HF and AD together, and they are great together. Also, Han is definitely the person that Ben needs to make peace with. A scene like that would be so powerful.