Re: [controversial] did ben have to die?

by reylo1992 Wed 25 Dec 2019, 10:30 am

Atenais wrote:
reylo1992 wrote:I'm still a little sad that they chose this road but I can understand why they did it. It's a question of strategy. Do we realize how Adam managed to make Kylo Ren a likeable character despite the fact he killed Lor San Tekka in cold blood, ordered the mass killing of villagers and murdered his own father? I do relate very much to that character because he was abused by a monster, rejected by his parents, betrayed by his uncle and trapped in a persona that wasn't him because he felt he could never come back. However, the movie shows pretty well how complex things are. When Palpatine tells him "I have been every voice you have ever word inside your head", that doesn't make him question the fundation of his own vision of the world. When Finn and Jannah discuss about the reason why they left the FO, they stress this idea that it was because of "an instinct, a feeling that it wasn't right to kill people", which Ben didn't really display. And as much as I understand why he is harsh toward Rey in TROS, that wasn't easy to reconcile making him darker at first and making the romance happen later, which they had the guts to do.

Had Ben survived, pretty sure that a good amount of people would have called out DLF for letting a guy like him getting his happy ending without any redemption path, like he never did anything wrong in his life. Of course that I feel sad that they chose the road of killing a young man instead of giving him his road for redemption. They could have had a scene where he feels that he doesn't deserve to live but Rey convinces him to stay alive so instead he willingly chooses to give up his power for the safety of the galaxy and his kids. However, I don't feel bitter about his "death" because I am persuaded that the Lion King vibes in the marketing and the movie wasn't for nothing. There are too many subtle elements that point to the direction that Rey is actually not alone at the end of the movie, its only too subtle for the GA to grasp. Whatever happened during the resurrection, they definitely had more in mind than having just Ben dying for good. Just look at Rey's face just after he vanishes. She doesn't look sad and even manages to smile a little as if she was realizing that "something wonderful has happened".
https://twitter.com/_BlackDiam0nd/status/1209442404820037633

Call me delusional but I think that Disney simply didn't have the guts to make it more obvious so they put subtle hints. I stand to my idea that Pasaana scene is a foreshadowing, which is what I thought from the moment I saw Rey looking at kids tenderly, then being so motherly with the alien girl, sad while answering she has no name, getting an ancestor (fertility?) bracelet and Kylo showing up right after plus all the scenes hinting at something happening: her getting in his room, him saying "I'll meet you there", her telling him "give it to me", him telling her "the only way you get to Exogol is with me" and the infamous resurrection scene and her ending with BB8 (that she treated like a child during a scene). Of course, it looks pretty old-age but after all it's common in fictions, especially in bittersweet love stories. How does the circle of life gets endless without any child on the way? If Ben could master the power of Darth Plagueis the Wise by saving his loved ones from death, maybe he could create life too. Maybe the novelization will hint at Rey's desire for family/maternity that Ben made happen and I don't think that the parallels with this Anidala scene are a total coincidence either. But the fact that Ben didn't show up point me to the direction that they possibly became one in the Force. In any case, I think it's pretty safe to assume that her looking at peace at the end of the movie confirms that he lives in her in one way or another. Now that his death made Ben more beloved than ever, maybe DLF will feel safe to tell exactly what they had mind in the future

@reylo1992

I agree with you and this is another of my problems with TROS. In this movie Rey and Kylo's arc stepped back, Kylo returned to his dark sider persona and even when Palpatine revealed he was manipulating him since always, Kylo didn't react to that, it was so weird. They didn't develop so many things in this movie...

From what I saw, people wanted him alive, even if the movie didn't help his arc. Imagine if we had a creative writer behind the movie?

@Atenais

I understand what you mean. Like many people, I was at first a little unsettled by how Kylo Ren was presented to the viewer during the first half of TROS and wondered how Reylo could happen in this scenario. However, everything made totally sense in my mind with the DS sequence because that's where I got what Adam possibly meant with the comparison with the Princess from the Hidden Fortress and the element on which he based his entire acting from the beginning. IMO the goal of TROS was to make obvious to the viewer what had been there all along through subtle clues : that there is a mask even when there is technically none. I think that the viewer never got to see Ben Solo, except when he got caught by Rey with his mask completely off. IMO Rey was pissed at this moment because contrary to the viewer she got to see who he truly was during the hand scene, rushed to save him because she believed he would easily drop the mask for good and naturally got disappointed when he didn't.

[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 5 Tenor11

I found that the line "I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head" was too short of an explanation and that there should have been at least one dramatic confrontation between Kylo and Palpatine before he sent him in the pit. I understand through why they didn't make Kylo question that line because the core of his unresolved business is Rey and that her move probably proved him that the voices in his head were right about the world.IMO one can't understand properly how Kylo Ren behaves with her during the first half of TROS – i.e. when he tricks her by grabbing her necklace – if one doesn’t get that the heart of their tension is the fact that she tricked him into believing she would take his hand. Don’t take me wrong, she was right to walk away given his behavior. But if one leaves aside that Kylo was brainwashed his entire life by a real monster, felt rejected by his parents who saw him as Vader 2.0 and got betrayed by his uncle who attacked him in his sleep, one doesn't get the implications of Rey’s move.

[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 5 3a10

So I think that it makes sense that in TROS he behaved like a resenteful man rejected by the woman he loved, desperate to find out why deep inside but not willing any more to show any vulnerability to her. Thus, I don't mind that he was back to his mask of defiance until the climax of their interaction in the Throne Room of the DS, where the mask is very visible. The way Adam plays that scene gave me the feeling that Kylo wants to be the ultimate a** with her even if he doesn't believe in his own BS. And once Rey healed him and finally droped the answer he desperately needed, IMO that's where he realized that his loved ones did sacrifice for him and that Palpatine implanted a false vision of the world (thus why I didn't mind that he had this internal dialogue with his father) and that Kylo Ren was a cage. He is the embodiment of people trapped by an abuser or an addiction who needs a catalyst to finally walk away. The transformation was meant to be seen through Rey's eyes, when she finally saw for real his true face through their bond. I think through that people who only go to watch TROS without having this context in mind wouldn't have that kind of interpretation.

[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 5 2ngi10

by motherofpearl1 Wed 25 Dec 2019, 12:45 pm

Just found this
https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/star-wars-rise-skywalker-tested-endings/

by Gemini Wed 25 Dec 2019, 4:16 pm

motherofpearl1 wrote:Just found this
https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/star-wars-rise-skywalker-tested-endings/

@motherofpearl1

Cant access it Sad

What did it say?

by motherofpearl1 Wed 25 Dec 2019, 4:25 pm

That they did eight different endings, and apparently this was what the test audience liked best.

by rey09 Wed 25 Dec 2019, 6:01 pm

Did anyone see Dave Filoni's latest tweet? My immediate thought was Ben and I was screaming, but ugh maybe it's just Ahsoka. But surely he knows about the recent pain of losing Ben solo.

by Atenais Wed 25 Dec 2019, 7:46 pm

rey09 wrote:@Gemini concerning the lineage, well we now know no one had any idea. Even JJ left it open, so ultimately they just made her background a big deal without thinking it through it all. Many people have your thinking but others don't, so it's very much open to interpretation if fans are dvided. I don't think it's RJ's fault, really just lucasfilm, JJ whoever started all this.

I liked Luke's arc in TLJ but I get why ppl are upset about. I think Rian also wanted to isolate Rey further so she's more connected to Kylo. If Rey found the father figure in Luke, then reylo probably would've died right there. What's her emotional need for Ben then?

I will say tho had they actually worked on Rey Palp lineage in and 7 and 8, you wouldn't need this Luke internal conflict because Rey would be struggling with her story, basically you'd get Luke between ESB and ROTJ with Obiwan advising him. And they would have developed this dyad more too so you still have reylo growing.

Sadly nothing was planned at all, and we all suffer for it =/

@rey09

We saw the video where JJ even suggested that they could be siblings. It's clear that he didn't have any real idea about her lineage. And if JJ was so sure about her being a Kenobi, he could have made just that, since he did what he wanted in TROS. Rey Kenobi was a nice idea, but I didn't get the impression this was an idea set in stone, I read several reviews and I didn't see anybody talking about it. Doesn't look like people were aware of all these supposed Kenobi hints in the movie. Only that JJ was shooting everywhere.

To tell that TLJ is a bad movie because it didn't follow the Kenobi lineage is kinda weird. To say that the trilogy could only work if Rey was a Kenobi is snobbish, as if only this theory was the right one. TROS is not a bad movie because TLJ or because it didn't follow some Kenobi theory, look at the plot and the dialogue, the movie is bad because that.

by reylo1992 Thu 26 Dec 2019, 6:55 am

Atenais wrote:
rey09 wrote:@Gemini concerning the lineage, well we now know no one had any idea. Even JJ left it open, so ultimately they just made her background a big deal without thinking it through it all. Many people have your thinking but others don't, so it's very much open to interpretation if fans are dvided. I don't think it's RJ's fault, really just lucasfilm, JJ whoever started all this.

I liked Luke's arc in TLJ but I get why ppl are upset about. I think Rian also wanted to isolate Rey further so she's more connected to Kylo. If Rey found the father figure in Luke, then reylo probably would've died right there. What's her emotional need for Ben then?

I will say tho had they actually worked on Rey Palp lineage in and 7 and 8, you wouldn't need this Luke internal conflict because Rey would be struggling with her story, basically you'd get Luke between ESB and ROTJ with Obiwan advising him. And they would have developed this dyad more too so you still have reylo growing.

Sadly nothing was planned at all, and we all suffer for it =/
@rey09

We saw the video where JJ even suggested that they could be siblings. It's clear that he didn't have any real idea about her lineage. And if JJ was so sure about her being a Kenobi, he could have made just that, since he did what he wanted in TROS. Rey Kenobi was a nice idea, but I didn't get the impression this was an idea set in stone, I read several reviews and I didn't see anybody talking about it. Doesn't look like people were aware of all these supposed Kenobi hints in the movie. Only that JJ was shooting everywhere.

To tell that TLJ is a bad movie because it didn't follow the Kenobi lineage is kinda weird. To say that the trilogy could only work if Rey was a Kenobi is snobbish, as if only this theory was the right one. TROS is not a bad movie because TLJ or because it didn't follow some Kenobi theory, look at the plot and the dialogue, the movie is bad because that.

@Atenais

I rewatched TFA yesterday with my bros. First, Reylo may not be super obvious given the few scenes they have and how subtle clues are but frankly I have a hard time to believe J.J when he claims that Rey and Ben could have been siblings or related in any way. I mean, he said a few years ago that Rey's parents ain't in TFA, Daisy confirmed that she knew who her parents were, mocked people who called her Rey Solo. Why would J.J. insert in his movie a castle, a forest, call Rey Cinderella and Ben a prince if they were meant to be related in any way. And why all the romantic hints at the "interesting relationship" through hearts, music and visuals? That doesn't hold water to me. Second, although I haven't been a big Rey Kenobi supporter, I acknowledge that callbacks to Obi-Wan Kenobi are the most prominent i.e. the voices she hears, the mind trick she uses, her escape plan and even the form of the map. Where my opinion differs is that Rey Kenobi wasn't a necessity even with these hints because I don't think it's irreconciliable to have Rey "whover she is" fitting in the same kind of role as Obi-Wan did in the past. As for the answers, the more I process with it, the more I find it satisfying. There are still some things that I find a littletoo convenient but I generally like the message conveyed by the movie. What I take from this is that the Force played the matchmaker in order to have the descendants of the two bloodiest legacies of this galaxy coming together to become one. To me, that makes sense emotionally and storywise because it forces the GA to question our own perception of Rey as bearer/member of the Skwalker legacy. Why wouldn't she deserve to become part of this family just because she is a Palpatine if her actions spoke louder than her bloodline? IMO, people who can't stand that idea that she is a Palpatine and reproach her to steal the Skywalker legacy commit exactly the same mistake that Skywalkers did with Ben before they corrected it with her. The fact that they went along with this idea toward the end of the creative process doesn't retcon previous movies. There were also hints at that kind of outcome in TFA: Kylo coming out of a light background while Rey comes out from a dark ship, Romeo & Juliet callback with the balcony scene (+ the music during the abduction), Rey's first strike similar to Palpatine's. As for the movie, most of the creative choices they went along make more and more sense in my mind and are more in line with TLJ as it looks on the surface. The title of the movie is also in line with what happened. The last Skywalker did rise: he literally rose from this dark pit to commit the epitome of the Christ's act and ensure that the Skywalker legacy would live on through Rey. I don't think he would have had any chance to get out of Exogol alive with most of his life force sucked and a nearly broken leg. I can't thank J.J. more for making him the bad*** Skywalker heir everybody - from fanboys to Reylos - was waiting for since TFA: defeating twice a whole bunch of ennemies, overpowering Rey Palpatine, walking through a big wave like a boss, rising from a fall despite a nearly broken leg, ressurecting the person he loves, etc...

by Let The Past Die Thu 26 Dec 2019, 3:45 pm

I wasn't really sure which thread to put this in.
But I liked it as an alternative ending.
https://mobile.twitter.com/NathanRojas5/status/1209649640741707777

by Gemini Thu 26 Dec 2019, 5:14 pm

Atenais wrote:
rey09 wrote:@Gemini concerning the lineage, well we now know no one had any idea. Even JJ left it open, so ultimately they just made her background a big deal without thinking it through it all. Many people have your thinking but others don't, so it's very much open to interpretation if fans are dvided. I don't think it's RJ's fault, really just lucasfilm, JJ whoever started all this.

I liked Luke's arc in TLJ but I get why ppl are upset about. I think Rian also wanted to isolate Rey further so she's more connected to Kylo. If Rey found the father figure in Luke, then reylo probably would've died right there. What's her emotional need for Ben then?

I will say tho had they actually worked on Rey Palp lineage in and 7 and 8, you wouldn't need this Luke internal conflict because Rey would be struggling with her story, basically you'd get Luke between ESB and ROTJ with Obiwan advising him. And they would have developed this dyad more too so you still have reylo growing.

Sadly nothing was planned at all, and we all suffer for it =/
@rey09

We saw the video where JJ even suggested that they could be siblings. It's clear that he didn't have any real idea about her lineage. And if JJ was so sure about her being a Kenobi, he could have made just that, since he did what he wanted in TROS. Rey Kenobi was a nice idea, but I didn't get the impression this was an idea set in stone, I read several reviews and I didn't see anybody talking about it. Doesn't look like people were aware of all these supposed Kenobi hints in the movie. Only that JJ was shooting everywhere.

To tell that TLJ is a bad movie because it didn't follow the Kenobi lineage is kinda weird. To say that the trilogy could only work if Rey was a Kenobi is snobbish, as if only this theory was the right one. TROS is not a bad movie because TLJ or because it didn't follow some Kenobi theory, look at the plot and the dialogue, the movie is bad because that.

@Atenais

Im still pretty sure it was hinted pretty strongly. Rey kenobi is all over the majority of their marketing material. She is literally placed in his spot multiple times:

Spoiler:

They know people saw it, many suspected it, IMO and LF kept milking it to get people in to the cinema because Rey palp rumours were not getting people in the seats. They shamelessly pimped it a few days before the release with the mind trick.

It's even on all the main posters with the tractor beam column. I hate LF for milking it right until the end Sad

I dont think it was ever not a strong candidate for her lineage, it was imo a toss up between the two, LF employees have apparently expressed their dislike of the palpatine choice.

I feel that Ben alive with rey or Ben dead hinged on it...

by Atenais Thu 26 Dec 2019, 6:31 pm

Gemini wrote:
Atenais wrote:
rey09 wrote:@Gemini concerning the lineage, well we now know no one had any idea. Even JJ left it open, so ultimately they just made her background a big deal without thinking it through it all. Many people have your thinking but others don't, so it's very much open to interpretation if fans are dvided. I don't think it's RJ's fault, really just lucasfilm, JJ whoever started all this.

I liked Luke's arc in TLJ but I get why ppl are upset about. I think Rian also wanted to isolate Rey further so she's more connected to Kylo. If Rey found the father figure in Luke, then reylo probably would've died right there. What's her emotional need for Ben then?

I will say tho had they actually worked on Rey Palp lineage in and 7 and 8, you wouldn't need this Luke internal conflict because Rey would be struggling with her story, basically you'd get Luke between ESB and ROTJ with Obiwan advising him. And they would have developed this dyad more too so you still have reylo growing.

Sadly nothing was planned at all, and we all suffer for it =/
@rey09

We saw the video where JJ even suggested that they could be siblings. It's clear that he didn't have any real idea about her lineage. And if JJ was so sure about her being a Kenobi, he could have made just that, since he did what he wanted in TROS. Rey Kenobi was a nice idea, but I didn't get the impression this was an idea set in stone, I read several reviews and I didn't see anybody talking about it. Doesn't look like people were aware of all these supposed Kenobi hints in the movie. Only that JJ was shooting everywhere.

To tell that TLJ is a bad movie because it didn't follow the Kenobi lineage is kinda weird. To say that the trilogy could only work if Rey was a Kenobi is snobbish, as if only this theory was the right one. TROS is not a bad movie because TLJ or because it didn't follow some Kenobi theory, look at the plot and the dialogue, the movie is bad because that.
@Atenais

Im still pretty sure it was hinted pretty strongly. Rey kenobi is all over the majority of their marketing material. She is literally placed in his spot multiple times:

Spoiler:

They know people saw it, many suspected it, IMO and LF kept milking it to get people in to the cinema because Rey palp rumours were not getting people in the seats. They shamelessly pimped it a few days before the release with the mind trick.

It's even on all the main posters with the tractor beam column. I hate LF for milking it right until the end

I dont think it was ever not a strong candidate for her lineage, it was imo a toss up between the two, LF employees have apparently expressed their dislike of the palpatine choice.

I feel that Ben alive with rey or Ben dead hinged on it...

@Gemini

From what JJ said, nothing was set in stone. She could be a Kenobi, I agree, but I don't see people talking about that as the greatest fail of the movie. They milked lots of thinks, they have no shame.

by Gemini Thu 26 Dec 2019, 7:16 pm

Atenais wrote:
Gemini wrote:
Atenais wrote:
rey09 wrote:@Gemini concerning the lineage, well we now know no one had any idea. Even JJ left it open, so ultimately they just made her background a big deal without thinking it through it all. Many people have your thinking but others don't, so it's very much open to interpretation if fans are dvided. I don't think it's RJ's fault, really just lucasfilm, JJ whoever started all this.

I liked Luke's arc in TLJ but I get why ppl are upset about. I think Rian also wanted to isolate Rey further so she's more connected to Kylo. If Rey found the father figure in Luke, then reylo probably would've died right there. What's her emotional need for Ben then?

I will say tho had they actually worked on Rey Palp lineage in and 7 and 8, you wouldn't need this Luke internal conflict because Rey would be struggling with her story, basically you'd get Luke between ESB and ROTJ with Obiwan advising him. And they would have developed this dyad more too so you still have reylo growing.

Sadly nothing was planned at all, and we all suffer for it =/
@rey09

We saw the video where JJ even suggested that they could be siblings. It's clear that he didn't have any real idea about her lineage. And if JJ was so sure about her being a Kenobi, he could have made just that, since he did what he wanted in TROS. Rey Kenobi was a nice idea, but I didn't get the impression this was an idea set in stone, I read several reviews and I didn't see anybody talking about it. Doesn't look like people were aware of all these supposed Kenobi hints in the movie. Only that JJ was shooting everywhere.

To tell that TLJ is a bad movie because it didn't follow the Kenobi lineage is kinda weird. To say that the trilogy could only work if Rey was a Kenobi is snobbish, as if only this theory was the right one. TROS is not a bad movie because TLJ or because it didn't follow some Kenobi theory, look at the plot and the dialogue, the movie is bad because that.
@Atenais

Im still pretty sure it was hinted pretty strongly. Rey kenobi is all over the majority of their marketing material. She is literally placed in his spot multiple times:

Spoiler:

They know people saw it, many suspected it, IMO and LF kept milking it to get people in to the cinema because Rey palp rumours were not getting people in the seats. They shamelessly pimped it a few days before the release with the mind trick.

It's even on all the main posters with the tractor beam column. I hate LF for milking it right until the end

I dont think it was ever not a strong candidate for her lineage, it was imo a toss up between the two, LF employees have apparently expressed their dislike of the palpatine choice.

I feel that Ben alive with rey or Ben dead hinged on it...
@Gemini

From what JJ said, nothing was set in stone. She could be a Kenobi, I agree, but I don't see people talking about that as the greatest fail of the movie. They milked lots of thinks, they have no shame.

@Atenais

I agree it's not the biggest fail but it's why Ben is a goner, I think.

He said siblings recently but also said Reys parents were not in TFA back in 2016. Couldnt have been siblings in TFA. It was more set in stone than hes letting on.

JJ lies to suit whatever changes he makes in the current moment. Retcon.

He has certain notes redacted on Reys lineage back from before TFA.

Daisy said in an interview recently basically it was palp, something else, then palp again during the production and filming process of TROS. Another lineage must have been on the cards and they chose palp. It actually matches the behind the scenes leak recently. JJ apparently said to (Iger?) that the new ending he was pressured into will not unite an audience.

by grimbergen Fri 27 Dec 2019, 5:27 pm

This last movie has no cohesion with the previous two. JJ wanted to erase the last two movies and that the whole truth be the last one. Actually all this is horrible and makes no sense. The whole story is contradicted. Not even the supposed "death" of Chewbacca or the death of Leia caused me sadness or an impact. Everything was so fast. They wouldn't let you breathe.
Right now I don't have much trouble getting interested in something related to Star Wars. They've ruined everything.
I just want Ben Solo back. Crying or Very sad

by motherofpearl1 Sat 28 Dec 2019, 12:56 am

grimbergen wrote:This last movie has no cohesion with the previous two. JJ wanted to erase the last two movies and that the whole truth be the last one. Actually all this is horrible and makes no sense. The whole story is contradicted. Not even the supposed "death" of Chewbacca or the death of Leia caused me sadness or an impact. Everything was so fast. They wouldn't let you breathe.
Right now I don't have much trouble getting interested in something related to Star Wars. They've ruined everything.
I just want Ben Solo back.

In a nutshell so do I.
Without Ben Solo, there IS no Star Wars. It isn't just because I love his character, its because he's the last descendant of the heroes. Star Wars was about the Skywalkers and Han.
Removing the heir to that family destroys the whole saga. It renders it pointless
. If they think giving the Skywalker name to another character will somehow make it right then they don't deserve to own and run the franchise. And now it seems Iger was the one behind this move, not Abrams.
After his smug interview it doesn't surprise me one bit.

by rey09 Sat 28 Dec 2019, 9:13 am

[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 5 Screen37

Puke

by motherofpearl1 Sat 28 Dec 2019, 9:25 am

Is that for real?

by rey09 Sat 28 Dec 2019, 10:01 am

motherofpearl1 wrote:Is that for real?

@motherofpearl1

Yup....

by lauvamp Sat 28 Dec 2019, 11:51 am

First of all, I absolutely think Ben didn't deserve to die BUT they chose the easiest and "less controversial" way, if we talk about antis and haters.

An unfair closing, I had the feeling Rian Johnson took more care of this character, “two halves of our protagonist” he said. But I didn't feel that on TROS...it was SO obvious they tried to "fix" Rian's vision.....it was a coward and unrespectful decision, in my opinion.

About Star Wars UK: can't help to leave a comment there...it was very inappropriate of them.

by unicorn Sat 28 Dec 2019, 12:17 pm

rey09 wrote:

Puke

@rey09

WOW! Know what? Take your "END" and put it in your... Evil or Very Mad

The next offence. "Shut finally up you dumb Reylos and Bendemptionists,it´s over, thats all you get, the movie is great." Nope.

by Birdwoman Sat 28 Dec 2019, 1:19 pm

Just a warning, I am pretty salty and grumpy today. Did Ben have to die? Well, if the rumors are true Iger managed to hire mediocre writers who catered to the fanboys and the ladies who are welcomed into their boys club. They could not get over the Han killer, they never understood how the character was written, they just wanted their two dimensional villain. They wanted him to get punished, they applied real life with fiction and were not able to move beyond it. They had a fit and in the end got their way.
I also feel CT lacks the imagination to actually write a story were Ben would live.

by reylo1992 Sat 28 Dec 2019, 1:42 pm

unicorn wrote:
rey09 wrote:

Puke
@rey09

WOW! Know what? Take your "END" and put it in your...

The next offence. "Shut finally up you dumb Reylos and Bendemptionists,it´s over, thats all you get, the movie is great." Nope.

@unicorn

Can we take note of this subtility through : "an end", not "its end" or "the end" Wink

by lauvamp Sat 28 Dec 2019, 3:10 pm

@Birdwoman exactly!

I don't know who to blame, Disney, Lucasfilm, KK, J.J, CT, all together? But definitely they didn't know how to manage the whole situation, Ben's fate was the result of this horrible organisation.....I thought the rumours were just bullshit but now I'm sure this trilogy was a mess. How come you dare to resurrect the Skywalkers without a clear direction?

I'd prefer to see Ben fighting side by side with Rey against Palpy....what's the deal with the dyad thing, just to resurrect the "new Skywalker" and die???

by guardienne Sat 28 Dec 2019, 3:46 pm

@Birdwoman maybe i'm misreading this, i'm just not sure where the '2-dimensional villain' comes from. abarams never wrote him this way not in TFA not now.

i mean, i guess there's a ton of grief here on this board, and even more salt, i'm just not sure with some of the posts that we've seen the same movie.

by nickandnora Sat 28 Dec 2019, 3:58 pm

guardienne wrote:@Birdwoman maybe i'm misreading this, i'm just not sure where the '2-dimensional villain' comes from. abarams never wrote him this way not in TFA not now.

i mean, i guess there's a ton of grief here on this board, and even more salt, i'm just not sure with some of the posts that we've seen the same movie.

@guardienne

I can't comment on what Birdwoman was thinking, but it might have something to do with the fact that while Kylo/Ben was NEVER written or acted like a 2-dimensional villain (not even in TRos), someone on the inside seems us to want to perceive him as such after the fact probably to uncomplicate that ending (and reaction to the ending). I just don't think DLF anticipated that if you write a complex villain with romantic undertones and have him played by the best young working actor today, the general audience isn't going to accept this truncated ending for him. They just don't know what to do, so they are going this odd route that doesn't even actually fit with what was written (which is the biggest business WTF right now, and I'm fascinated to watch it).

I'm pretty much coming around to the idea that they always planned to redeem and kill him from the beginning, but when he gained popularity they didn't change their course of action because they didn't know how to let him live after Han's death (which is funny, because I totally could have addressed Han's death in a way that would have made his living palatable). They were just uncreative, closed minded and didn't know what to do. So they just... kept doing what they were doing in the hopes it would work out in the end (Reader: It didn't.) JMO of what went on given the information we currently know.

by Birdwoman Sat 28 Dec 2019, 6:51 pm

@nickandnora, thank you you are spot on. I knew he had 50% chance to die. But the way they killed him off and finished the movie was just a bad story decision.
I admit I am annoyed by my age group, whom have been some of the loudest voices complaining in fandom that they were not happy with the direction of the ST. They wanted their OT part 2 with all the nostalgia catered to them instead of our kids.
My friends who are GA think it was stupid to kill off Ben Solo. Most of them think they will bring him back.

by LadyGaufrette Sun 29 Dec 2019, 4:29 am

lauvamp wrote:@Birdwoman exactly!

I don't know who to blame, Disney, Lucasfilm, KK, J.J, CT, all together? But definitely they didn't know how to manage the whole situation, Ben's fate was the result of this horrible organisation.....I thought the rumours were just bullshit but now I'm sure this trilogy was a mess. How come you dare to resurrect the Skywalkers without a clear direction?

I'd prefer to see Ben fighting side by side with Rey against Palpy....what's the deal with the dyad thing, just to resurrect the "new Skywalker" and die???

@lauvamp

I blame Bob Iger, I read rumours (so they're to be taken with grain of salt but it corresponds with the end results) from people working in disney that 2019 would be the year with bittersweet endings.
I also read he was the one to impose Abrams when KK wanted Rian, and he gave total control to JJ in order to satisfy old fanboys, thus, overruling the StoryGroup.

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