JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

by Force22 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:03 am

Random thoughts about TFA, not sure where to put them but they can be moved to another place if more appropriate.

Ok, so, in the OT, Luke was Lucas, right?

In the ST, I believe Kylo is JJ, or perhaps even more than JJ, the whole team responsible for creating the Sequel trilogy. (I know lots of people have claimed this, but I want to elaborate on it a little).

Let's think about it. Kylo has to deal with being the offspring of two legends, and the grandchild of other two legends. How do you deal with such legacy? How do you surpass your parents? How do you do it? Well, how do you take on freaking Star Wars?

What's Kylo's greatest fear? Not being as strong as Darth Vader. I believe that is the fear of their creators as well. Kylo was based on Vader, Kylo is a copy, and, as a copy, he stands in the Vader's shadow. And that is Kylo's problem. JJ's fears and anxieties are expressed in Kylo.

But Rey also represents this anxiety about continuing such a legacy as Star Wars. Both Rey and Kylo are characters who are looking back, basing their lives on a past that is gone. I realized it when I wrote about fanboys looking for a past that doesn't exist, but the fanboys also represent all the Star Wars fandom. People do search for a sense of nostalgia, but the movie cannot simply repeat the past. Kylo is not Vader. He can try, but even if he tries to copy Vader, he'll never succeed, because he is a different person. The ST cannot simply copy the OT. They are different movies, in a different time. They have to look to the future, they need to do something new. Rey is told not to look behind, but to look ahead. This relates to Star Wars as well. If it wants to survive, to belong in viewers' hearts, it needs to look ahead.

So I think TFA is about balancing this huge and heavy legacy while at the same time trying to be itself, trying to be different. It relates to Kylo, but even more than Kylo, as is seen in Rey, even Finn, who walks away from his past. Most stories are about characters leaving their comfort zones, but TFA emphasizes that, emphasizes the break with the past.

Seeing TFA as this negotiation between tradition and innovation is interesting for Reylo, because Reylo is outside the tradition of SW movies. The divide in the fandom between those who want tradition and those who embrace something new is also reflective of the themes in TFA.

by jakkusun Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:16 am

oooh I like this!

There were some other times I thought that the writers were being kind of meta like that. When Rey and Finn first take off in the Falcon and Rey says it hasn't flown in years, it has this bumpy start and all the dust is shaken off as it gets into the air. That is basically the whole crew restarting the franchise. Also, Rey scavenging in the graveyard on Jakku is like the team searching through the now dead EU for ideas they can repurpose. Lor San Tekka speaks the first line of the movie, "this will begin to make things right," which could mean that the ST will fix all the damage that has been done to the franchise by the PT.
Also, when Maz says, "the belonging you see is not behind you, it is ahead," is like what you said about how the ST needs to be different and look ahead.

by vaderito Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:36 am

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/18/kylo-ren-is-the-centerpiece-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens

He’s a great villain, and even greater metaphor for J.J. Abrams.

by Force22 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:46 am

vaderito wrote:http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/18/kylo-ren-is-the-centerpiece-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens

He’s a great villain, and even greater metaphor for J.J. Abrams.

Haha, clearer and better written!
anyways, I still think that this negotiation with this great past is something to watch in the ST. Also, if Kylo is JJ, he can't be the villain.

I got this idea when writing about the Reylo situation and realizing the views about Reylo coincide somewhat with Rey's and Kylo's views about their own lives, how they hang on to a past that is no more, how that stands in for the fandom.

And I actually think Finn is the odd one in TFA, or Finn is not as meta. Finn walks away and doesn't look back. Is Finn representing us, the viewers who are not tied to a past, in a very ironic way? Or perhaps Finn just doesn't fit the analogy.

by vaderito Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:50 am

Finn has no subtext whatsoever.

Kylo = last Skywalker-Solo = JJ = anti-villain

So definitive not the villain. I see him as one of protagonists but the kind that Corelones and Sopranos are - protagonists who are usually villains in someone else's story.

by BastilaBey Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:55 am

I completely love this idea and have been thinking a lot about how Kylo Ren represents the conflict of contemporary masculinity and its anxieties. Can't help but feel like the character hits a little too close to home and many male fans of the ot don't know how to deal. They want Han Solo and Luke, the witty scoundrel and straightforward hero, but they are characters from a different time.

by vaderito Fri 01 Apr 2016, 10:58 am

I call TFA Millennial Falcon because new characters with their insecurities, struggle with loneliness, feeling of abandonment and disillusion with institutions (military, family) represent Millennial generation much better that wish-fulfillment characters from ANH (space pirate, Princess, Jedi Knight in making, Jedi Knight) ever could.

by Force22 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 11:02 am

I am interested on how this symbolism relates to the current state of the fandom. People knew there would be divisions after the ST, but I don't know, I feel this is different than the division with the PT. The division is not between those who hate the movie and those who like it, the division is in how people interpret the movie. It's a very interesting divide in the fandom. And relates just so much to Reylo and all the hate towards the pairing and its supporters.

And yes, @BastillaBey I agree TFA is also about masculine anxieties. Kylo Ren troubles people, perhaps cause e hits a nerve.

by BastilaBey Fri 01 Apr 2016, 11:11 am

@force22 Agreed, there's wide consensus that the movie was good, but not really on what made it so. It seems to be a gendered divide, and also indicates a confusion surrounding what Star Wars' genre is. We live in a time where the box office is completely dominated by comic book movies, but that's not really what Star Wars is. A Star Wars villain isn't a superhero villain, especially one like Kylo Ren. The assumption is that because it's set in space and there are action sequences, Star Wars is made mostly for boys. JJ admitted as much, but in doing so implied that he wanted TFA to be different. I very much believe that Reylo was intentionally developed as a storyline to attract more women to the fandom, and it's worked. Much to many a fanboy's annoyance, they want it to be theirs.

by Force22 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 12:00 pm

I think the division also relates to feminine/ masculine, though, in this case, it's not so much reflected in the movie itself, except perhaps in Kylo wanting to get rid of the light. I know in Yin and Yang light is masculine, but it seems Kylo wants to get rid of his "weak" side, and characteristics considered feminine, like compassion, tend to be considered as weak.

by vaderito Fri 01 Apr 2016, 12:34 pm

I wouldn't call it a real divide. Among die-hard fans, yes, but not among casual viewers who like the movie and characters and move on. There's always divide among die-hard fans about anything. Nobody takes that seriously, at least not enough to make some radical changes to already established development.

Kylo Ren represents the conflict of contemporary masculinity and its anxieties.

One of reasons why some die hard fanboys are still hoping for Rey and Poe hook up cause Poe = traditional masculinity...that was completely subverted by that lip bite that launched Storm Pilot, but those old school fanboys don't want to see it. They want things to be like they used to be.

by Airemyn Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:32 pm

Force22 wrote:
vaderito wrote:http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/18/kylo-ren-is-the-centerpiece-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens

He’s a great villain, and even greater metaphor for J.J. Abrams.

And I actually think Finn is the odd one in TFA, or Finn is not as meta. Finn walks away and doesn't look back. Is Finn representing us, the viewers who are not tied to a past, in a very ironic way? Or perhaps Finn just doesn't fit the analogy.

I like your whole idea here but I just wanted to comment on Finn. So far he has just walked away, but I do believe that his story will surround the stormtroopers and helping to free them in the next two parts of the trilogy, so maybe he will fit the analogy a bit further down the line.

by Force22 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:35 pm

Airemyn wrote:

I like your whole idea here but I just wanted to comment on Finn. So far he has just walked away, but I do believe that his story will surround the stormtroopers and helping to free them in the next two parts of the trilogy, so maybe he will fit the analogy a bit further down the line.

True. I think Finn's plot is still to be developed, and it will likely include this theme of negotiating the past and present.

by vaderito Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:37 pm

Finn and Tran sitting in a tree
Set Storm Troopers free

Twisted Evil

by LadyHa Sat 25 Jun 2016, 4:55 pm

BastilaBey wrote:@force22 Agreed, there's wide consensus that the movie was good, but not really on what made it so. It seems to be a gendered divide, and also indicates a confusion surrounding what Star Wars' genre is. We live in a time where the box office is completely dominated by comic book movies, but that's not really what Star Wars is. A Star Wars villain isn't a superhero villain, especially one like Kylo Ren. The assumption is that because it's set in space and there are action sequences, Star Wars is made mostly for boys. JJ admitted as much, but in doing so implied that he wanted TFA to be different. I very much believe that Reylo was intentionally developed as a storyline to attract more women to the fandom, and it's worked. Much to many a fanboy's annoyance, they want it to be theirs.

@BastilaBey

I bolded a line above in your post, because it's something I have been thinking about. This setup has worked so well, that I almost feel a sense of manipulation! Ah, I am totally hooked, and keep thinking with some amusement- How did these filmmakers know what would push my buttons?

Another clue to the intentional quality of Reylo relates to the modern tone of the romance that they seem to be setting up. For comparison, I was a kid when the OT came out, but the Han-Leia interplay seemed very obvious to me: "oh, 2 attractive people are bantering=eventual hookup." Because a LOT of on-screen pairings back in the 80s were all about the humorous bickering couple. Cheers, Romancing the Stone, Remington Steele, Moonlighting. As a kid, I actually assumed that courting was really like that most of the time. Rolling Eyes

In contrast, many popular romances nowadays are characterized by intensity and are paranormal in nature. I mean, is it a coincidence that another fated, paranormal romance (Twilight) was a mega-blockbuster when this script was being conceived? Then again, maybe not; I don't really like the comparison!

by FrolickingFizzgig Sat 25 Jun 2016, 5:19 pm

LadyHa wrote:
BastilaBey wrote:@force22 Agreed, there's wide consensus that the movie was good, but not really on what made it so. It seems to be a gendered divide, and also indicates a confusion surrounding what Star Wars' genre is. We live in a time where the box office is completely dominated by comic book movies, but that's not really what Star Wars is. A Star Wars villain isn't a superhero villain, especially one like Kylo Ren. The assumption is that because it's set in space and there are action sequences, Star Wars is made mostly for boys. JJ admitted as much, but in doing so implied that he wanted TFA to be different. I very much believe that Reylo was intentionally developed as a storyline to attract more women to the fandom, and it's worked. Much to many a fanboy's annoyance, they want it to be theirs.
@BastilaBey

I bolded a line above in your post, because it's something I have been thinking about. This setup has worked so well, that I almost feel a sense of manipulation! Ah, I am totally hooked, and keep thinking with some amusement- How did these filmmakers know what would push my buttons?

Another clue to the intentional quality of Reylo relates to the modern tone of the romance that they seem to be setting up. For comparison, I was a kid when the OT came out, but the Han-Leia interplay seemed very obvious to me: "oh, 2 attractive people are bantering=eventual hookup." Because a LOT of on-screen pairings back in the 80s were all about the humorous bickering couple. Cheers, Romancing the Stone, Remington Steele, Moonlighting. As a kid, I actually assumed that courting was really like that most of the time. In contrast, many popular romances nowadays are characterized by intensity and are paranormal in nature. I mean, is it a coincidence that another fated, paranormal romance (Twilight) was a mega-blockbuster when this script was being conceived? Then again, maybe not; I don't really like the comparison!

@LadyHa
Many of us have wondered if the dynamic was meant to attract the now grown-up paranormal YA novel fans actually. Would that be a bad move monetarily? Heck no, it would be a very good one, but they obviously conceived something that was more heavily inspired by true transformational dynamics that date back literally thousands of years. ~~Uneducated, unread~~ people can only ever conjure up Twilight as a comparison, but there's a reason that book series attracted such a huge swath of young female readers. The famous line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast film isn't inaccurate. This really is a "tale as old as time", and it can be high art or total garbage just like any story. Its success leans heavily upon the execution, and we're all hoping the production team really knows what its doing because there are so many ways this could go very wrong.

by BastilaBey Sat 25 Jun 2016, 5:28 pm

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
LadyHa wrote:
BastilaBey wrote:@force22 Agreed, there's wide consensus that the movie was good, but not really on what made it so. It seems to be a gendered divide, and also indicates a confusion surrounding what Star Wars' genre is. We live in a time where the box office is completely dominated by comic book movies, but that's not really what Star Wars is. A Star Wars villain isn't a superhero villain, especially one like Kylo Ren. The assumption is that because it's set in space and there are action sequences, Star Wars is made mostly for boys. JJ admitted as much, but in doing so implied that he wanted TFA to be different. I very much believe that Reylo was intentionally developed as a storyline to attract more women to the fandom, and it's worked. Much to many a fanboy's annoyance, they want it to be theirs.
@BastilaBey

I bolded a line above in your post, because it's something I have been thinking about. This setup has worked so well, that I almost feel a sense of manipulation! Ah, I am totally hooked, and keep thinking with some amusement- How did these filmmakers know what would push my buttons?

Another clue to the intentional quality of Reylo relates to the modern tone of the romance that they seem to be setting up. For comparison, I was a kid when the OT came out, but the Han-Leia interplay seemed very obvious to me: "oh, 2 attractive people are bantering=eventual hookup." Because a LOT of on-screen pairings back in the 80s were all about the humorous bickering couple. Cheers, Romancing the Stone, Remington Steele, Moonlighting. As a kid, I actually assumed that courting was really like that most of the time. In contrast, many popular romances nowadays are characterized by intensity and are paranormal in nature. I mean, is it a coincidence that another fated, paranormal romance (Twilight) was a mega-blockbuster when this script was being conceived? Then again, maybe not; I don't really like the comparison!
@LadyHa
Many of us have wondered if the dynamic was meant to attract the now grown-up paranormal YA novel fans actually. Would that be a bad move monetarily? Heck no, it would be a very good one, but they obviously conceived something that was more heavily inspired by true transformational dynamics that date back literally thousands of years. ~~Uneducated, unread~~ people can only ever conjure up Twilight as a comparison, but there's a reason that book series attracted such a huge swath of young female readers. The famous line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast film isn't inaccurate. This really is a "tale as old as time", and it can be high art or total garbage just like any story. Its success leans heavily upon the execution, and we're all hoping the production team really knows what its doing because there are so many ways this could go very wrong.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Honestly, when I first saw the movie and identified Reylo as where things were going, I thought to myself "Oh no...how are they going to pull that off?" Because it is ambitious and somewhat controversial, you can see that in many fan responses to the notion. So I did share their concern back then, before I learned Rian Johnson would be handling VIII and watching more of his stuff than I'd already seen. But there's no point worrying about it, we're not the ones involved. And I thought it was set up so beautifully in TFA that they must know where they want to take it and how to get there. It will be interesting to see how they balance the different hero journeys, Rey's and Finn's, for an overall cohesive and meaningful trilogy.

@LadyHa Welcome! Yes, I'm really not a fan of the Twilight comparison either...how about Beauty and the Beast, or Cupid and Psyche, or Jane Eyre, or East of the Sun, West of the Moon. Essentially anything from the 'search for the lost husband' fairytale family. Twilight would be an example of it being not well executed, imo, so hopefully they can do much better than that.

by LadyHa Sat 25 Jun 2016, 6:13 pm

Many of us have wondered if the dynamic was meant to attract the now grown-up paranormal YA novel fans actually. Would that be a bad move monetarily? Heck no, it would be a very good one, but they obviously conceived something that was more heavily inspired by true transformational dynamics that date back literally thousands of years. ~~Uneducated, unread~~ people can only ever conjure up Twilight as a comparison, but there's a reason that book series attracted such a huge swath of young female readers. The famous line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast film isn't inaccurate. This really is a "tale as old as time", and it can be high art or total garbage just like any story. Its success leans heavily upon the execution, and we're all hoping the production team really knows what its doing because there are so many ways this could go very wrong.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree that this story shows many elements of being so much more complex than just bowing to romance fads and trends. But, then sometimes I resist and resort to cynicism! I am afraid of being disappointed by the filmmakers' requirements to paint everything with such broad strokes in order to reach the broadest possible audiences and that it will get all watered down. Still, it's remarkable how JJ et. al. created such intrigue with these characters in such a short amount of time. Of course, many of the writers on this board have pointed out that the filmmakers were using shorthand that most people (should) recognize- the woods, the bridal carry, the suggestive dialogue.

On a personal note, I am not surprised that I have responded. I am fascinated by the tale of Persephone, Wuthering Heights is easily my favorite book, and I get downright wistful every time I think of the Phantom of the Opera. But, obviously, I am far from alone! Smile

by snufkin Sat 25 Jun 2016, 6:19 pm

by LadyHa Sat 25 Jun 2016, 6:44 pm

snufkin wrote:

@snufkin

Haha, good one, took me several seconds to realize that was JJ in the second gif! Laughing

by LadyHa Sat 25 Jun 2016, 6:47 pm

~~Uneducated, unread~~ people can only ever conjure up Twilight as a comparison, but there's a reason that book series attracted such a huge swath of young female readers. The famous line from the Disney Beauty and the Beast film isn't inaccurate. This really is a "tale as old as time", and it can be high art or total garbage just like any story. Its success leans heavily upon the execution, and we're all hoping the production team really knows what its doing because there are so many ways this could go very wrong.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Welcome! Yes, I'm really not a fan of the Twilight comparison either...how about Beauty and the Beast, or Cupid and Psyche, or Jane Eyre, or East of the Sun, West of the Moon. Essentially anything from the 'search for the lost husband' fairytale family. Twilight would be an example of it being not well executed, imo, so hopefully they can do much better than that.

@BastilaBey

I don't mean to knock Twilight too hard (nor to give it too much credit)! I am a casual fan of many genre romance novels, and am sadly familiar with the unfair (in my opinion) disdain that gets heaped upon "women's" stories of all kinds. I suppose my scrutiny has more to do with how these stories are dismissed as being all the same or merely as low-brow pandering to women, especially when they enter the realm of the Hollywood-style film. I am actually feeling pretty excited that Star Wars seems to be pushing/ riding a more progressive wave when it comes to crafting storylines that appeal to an inclusive audience outside of the traditional demographic of white men of a certain age.

I don't know the tale East of the Sun, West of the Moon, but I see that there is a 1/2 hour version out there narrated by Max von Sydow. Fun- I know what I am going to listen to on my road trip tomorrow!

by snufkin Sat 25 Jun 2016, 9:31 pm

LadyHa wrote:
snufkin wrote:

@snufkin

Haha, good one, took me several seconds to realize that was JJ in the second gif!

@LadyHa

They both really really like Rey, just that Abrams is a little more willing to admit it.

vaderito wrote:http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/12/18/kylo-ren-is-the-centerpiece-of-star-wars-the-force-awakens

He’s a great villain, and even greater metaphor for J.J. Abrams.

@vaderito

That's honestly the best review of this movie I've read. The author gets it completely right on the points of empathy and family, which again to talk about Looper, that's also ultimately a story about family contained w/in the science fiction and noir genres.

by Sponsored content

JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars

Re: JJ is Kylo Ren, TFA negotiating the past and future of Star Wars