Kylo's speech patterns?

by Slade Sat 09 Jul 2016, 1:35 am

I recently read a comment or short article where the author said she thought Kylo had "stilted" speech patterns, and she seemed to think this was important but unfortunately did not elaborate (I don't know where I read this). Has anyone else seen a similar opinion expressed? Or has anyone else thought there was something different with Kylo's speech, and that difference might be important? If so, why?

I did not perceive anything unusual, but maybe I just didn't catch it.

by Saracene Sat 09 Jul 2016, 2:02 am

I don't know if I'd call it "stilted", but yes I thought there was something stylized about Adam's line delivery in TFA. Not sure about its significance unless it's something to do with Kylo creating a different persona for himself, down to the way he speaks? Even when he didn't have his mask on in the interrogation scene, there was something very cold and mechanical about his tone when he speaks to Rey - which could be another reason among many why he doesn't look like a likely candidate for falling in love to many people?

by Mana Sat 09 Jul 2016, 2:08 am

In the novelization, his speech is very different from the film...

by Slade Sat 09 Jul 2016, 2:36 am

Can y'all give examples?

I do think his delivery was weird when he talks to Han on the bridge before he breaks down, but I think that's because he's telling Han a lie that he doesn't believe himself.

by Forsythia Sat 09 Jul 2016, 5:44 am

I thought that sometimes his wording sounded a bit artificial or maybe old-fashioned and elevated, especially in the novelization:

"I regret the necessity. They are gratuitous in my presence. But others who have made your acquaintance possess only the most primitive abilities and further defiance on your part would demand their unnecessary exertions. [...] None of this unpleasantness need be necessary." (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"A truism on which you might personally wish to reflect" (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"All time is transitory, and mine especially so. This will go more quickly if we dispense with childish nonsense." (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"Simple ignorances are easily remedied." (Chapter XIII, Takodana forest)
"You find him more than tolerable." (Chapter XIII, Takodana forest)
"Consider carefully now: I could easily tell you they were all killed, righteously slain in battle. But I would prefer to be honest with you from the beginning. You will be relieved to hear that as far as their current status and well-being is concerned—I have no idea." (Chapter XIV, Rey's interrogation)

by Sylvia Snow Sat 09 Jul 2016, 10:26 am

I would said that how he speaks could be the way to show he is different, more superior than others. Consider that Kylo may take pride in being the grandson of Vader, both his grandmother and mother are royals and he himself is also royalty so his speech could be the thing that separate him as a more intelligent, well educated, with those who are lesser.

by Slade Sat 09 Jul 2016, 12:05 pm

@forsythia

Yep, that's stilted! I blame ADF.

by Guest Sat 09 Jul 2016, 12:53 pm

He speaks and acts like a stereotypical villain much of the time. Villains often have a cold formality to them. It's a front to avoid showing humanity or compassion; most of the clear-cut bad guys we see on-screen talk consistently like that and the audience is allowed to hate them and root for their death/defeat without question.

Kylo isn't capable of being a totally heartless monster as we've seen. He's forced to drop the facade when faced with people he has genuine feelings for, and his speech changes to reflect other emotions such as remorse, fear, regret. The formality and coldness just disappears in those moments, they're few and far between, but it can make all the difference between a character that should be killed off and a character that can be shown the error of his ways and be redeemed.

by guardienne Wed 13 Jul 2016, 3:16 pm

hux and kylo speec patterns

i watched again last week and he never really asks questions. he commands or just makes statements. that's why the dialogue between him and LST for example is so odd. they are kinda talking at each other not to each other.

i think with han he has better dialogue, like actual dialogue, and with rey as well, in the interrogation. i mean better as in actually responding to one another.

by Slade Wed 13 Jul 2016, 6:02 pm

guardienne wrote:hux and kylo speec patterns

i watched again last week and he never really asks questions. he commands or just makes statements. that's why the dialogue between him and LST for example is so odd. they are kinda talking at each other not to each other.

i think with han he has better dialogue, like actual dialogue, and with rey as well, in the interrogation. i mean better as in actually responding to one another.

@guardienne

I've read that little article. I'd need to go watch the movie again paying very close attention to Kylo's lines before I could judge the accuracy of the article. It's interesting.

by Armadeus Wed 13 Jul 2016, 9:01 pm

Forsythia wrote:I thought that sometimes his wording sounded a bit artificial or maybe old-fashioned and elevated, especially in the novelization:

"I regret the necessity. They are gratuitous in my presence. But others who have made your acquaintance possess only the most primitive abilities and further defiance on your part would demand their unnecessary exertions. [...] None of this unpleasantness need be necessary." (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"A truism on which you might personally wish to reflect" (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"All time is transitory, and mine especially so. This will go more quickly if we dispense with childish nonsense." (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"Simple ignorances are easily remedied." (Chapter XIII, Takodana forest)
"You find him more than tolerable." (Chapter XIII, Takodana forest)
"Consider carefully now: I could easily tell you they were all killed, righteously slain in battle. But I would prefer to be honest with you from the beginning. You will be relieved to hear that as far as their current status and well-being is concerned—I have no idea." (Chapter XIV, Rey's interrogation)

@Forsythia

Reads like the dialogue of a HAL-9000 unit.

by IoJovi Wed 13 Jul 2016, 9:29 pm

Armadeus wrote:
Forsythia wrote:I thought that sometimes his wording sounded a bit artificial or maybe old-fashioned and elevated, especially in the novelization:

"I regret the necessity. They are gratuitous in my presence. But others who have made your acquaintance possess only the most primitive abilities and further defiance on your part would demand their unnecessary exertions. [...] None of this unpleasantness need be necessary." (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"A truism on which you might personally wish to reflect" (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"All time is transitory, and mine especially so. This will go more quickly if we dispense with childish nonsense." (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"Simple ignorances are easily remedied." (Chapter XIII, Takodana forest)
"You find him more than tolerable." (Chapter XIII, Takodana forest)
"Consider carefully now: I could easily tell you they were all killed, righteously slain in battle. But I would prefer to be honest with you from the beginning. You will be relieved to hear that as far as their current status and well-being is concerned—I have no idea." (Chapter XIV, Rey's interrogation)
@Forsythia

Reads like the dialogue of a HAL-9000 unit.

@Armadeus

As an avid fan of Arthur C. Clarke, this made me laugh out loud...

lol!

by Slade Wed 13 Jul 2016, 10:00 pm

Yeah, that's the book. The person who mentioned this topic was referring to the movie. As I recall, they thought Kylo's speech was somehow stunted, indicating low IQ or emotional trauma. But I don't know how emotional trauma would influence speech or vocabulary. I wonder if the script was closer to the novel but Driver, et al decided to cut a lot of it.

by MeadowofAshes Wed 13 Jul 2016, 10:27 pm

His speech patterns came off as Kylo versus Ben to me. I don't see it being related to low IQ at all. Trauma can impact speech patterns. But I see two possibilities for Kylo speech versus Ben speech. 1. Kylo is his dark side mask so he takes on a different tone and lilt than when we see Ben come out. 2. Since Manchurian!Kylo is back on the table post Life Debt, there's the possibility Kylo voice is due to Snoke's influence while, again, Ben voice is different and more natural/emotive. We see this difference in both the interrogation and the bridge scene. "You. A scavenger" is spoken with the weird lilt whereas "You're so lonely, so afraid to leave..." sounds very emotive and doesn't have the weird lilt. On the bridge "No. The Supreme Leader is wise" has the lilt and even sounds like brainwashed speech. Whereas his "I am being torn apart" sounds absent of speech impediment and full of emotion.

by Slade Wed 13 Jul 2016, 11:10 pm

MeadowofAshes wrote:His speech patterns came off as Kylo versus Ben to me. I don't see it being related to low IQ at all. Trauma can impact speech patterns. But I see two possibilities for Kylo speech versus Ben speech. 1. Kylo is his dark side mask so he takes on a different tone and lilt than when we see Ben come out. 2. Since Manchurian!Kylo is back on the table post Life Debt, there's the possibility Kylo voice is due to Snoke's influence while, again, Ben voice is different and more natural/emotive. We see this difference in both the interrogation and the bridge scene. "You. A scavenger" is spoken with the weird lilt whereas "You're so lonely, so afraid to leave..." sounds very emotive and doesn't have the weird lilt. On the bridge "No. The Supreme Leader is wise" has the lilt and even sounds like brainwashed speech. Whereas his "I am being torn apart" sounds absent of speech impediment and full of emotion.

@MeadowofAshes

I don't think it has anything to do with low IQ either, and I agree that "supreme leader is wise" sounds like he's repeating something he's been trained to believe but really doesn't. How can trauma impact speech? I know that extreme stress can cause people to stutter, but what else can happen?

I didn't see the scavenger comment as weird, just as him expressing disbelief and mild contempt. But yeah, his tone does change when he mind locks on her a minute later.

by CienaRee Thu 14 Jul 2016, 2:52 am

I remeber watching the movie for the first time(at that point I haven't heard of AD before)and the way he spoke after he unmakes was a lot different than how I expected him to sound.I'm not sure if this is just me but I noticed that duirng the interogation the way he speaks seems to change like when he was asking Rey about BB-8 he sounded more softer than when he was mind probing her.
I have to say though I find the ''You're my gues''line super sexy.Coupled with him watching her sleep moemnts earlier it feels like this along with him carrying her in term of tenderness were the most tender ones.

by MeadowofAshes Thu 14 Jul 2016, 4:18 am

Slade wrote:
MeadowofAshes wrote:His speech patterns came off as Kylo versus Ben to me. I don't see it being related to low IQ at all. Trauma can impact speech patterns. But I see two possibilities for Kylo speech versus Ben speech. 1. Kylo is his dark side mask so he takes on a different tone and lilt than when we see Ben come out. 2. Since Manchurian!Kylo is back on the table post Life Debt, there's the possibility Kylo voice is due to Snoke's influence while, again, Ben voice is different and more natural/emotive. We see this difference in both the interrogation and the bridge scene. "You. A scavenger" is spoken with the weird lilt whereas "You're so lonely, so afraid to leave..." sounds very emotive and doesn't have the weird lilt. On the bridge "No. The Supreme Leader is wise" has the lilt and even sounds like brainwashed speech. Whereas his "I am being torn apart" sounds absent of speech impediment and full of emotion.
@MeadowofAshes

I don't think it has anything to do with low IQ either, and I agree that "supreme leader is wise" sounds like he's repeating something he's been trained to believe but really doesn't. How can trauma impact speech? I know that extreme stress can cause people to stutter, but what else can happen?

I didn't see the scavenger comment as weird, just as him expressing disbelief and mild contempt. But yeah, his tone does change when he mind locks on her a minute later.

@Slade Researchers are working on using speech as an identifier of PTSD and depression in military vets. Depression is associated with flat, monotonous speech but for symptoms of anxiety you can have a stutter like you mentioned, or you can also have quick, abrupt, or truncated speech, speech that doesn't seem to have a natural or flowing lilt to it. "Stilted" speech has been associated with schizophrenic and narcissistic symptoms, so there's that too.

With the scavenger comment, oh yeah it's definitely disbelief and mild contempt, but when I listen to his enunciation of it something sounds off. "Yoo-oo (slightly drawn out). A (hard A, not "uh", which is odd for conversational American diction) scavenger." Then the infamous line. Then the softened, more natural voice during the probe. I can't quite nail down which mentally ill aspect they're going for, but his speech patterns seem irregular to me.

@CienaRee I think my favorite part of the "You're my guest" line is the pause and then the little breath he takes in just before it. Like he had to stop and get his bearings before he answered. And you know while he was down there staring at her while she slept he gave careful thought to what his opening line should be. And then his head cocked in confusion when he says "You still want to kill me" - they really played up the sympathetic movie monster with those. Adds to the mentally ill coding. He genuinely thinks he's being nice (and relatively speaking, compared to Poe he is, but it's not like Rey would know that) and doesn't understand why she's feels hostility toward him. Who in their right mind thinks after the girl they kidnapped wakes up strapped to an interrogation table she'll feel like a guest and not be thinking about how she can incapacitate him to get the hell outta there? Not a normally functioning person, that's for sure.

by Saracene Thu 14 Jul 2016, 6:07 am

Armadeus wrote:
Forsythia wrote:I thought that sometimes his wording sounded a bit artificial or maybe old-fashioned and elevated, especially in the novelization:

"I regret the necessity. They are gratuitous in my presence. But others who have made your acquaintance possess only the most primitive abilities and further defiance on your part would demand their unnecessary exertions. [...] None of this unpleasantness need be necessary." (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"A truism on which you might personally wish to reflect" (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"All time is transitory, and mine especially so. This will go more quickly if we dispense with childish nonsense." (Chapter III, Poe's interrogation)
"Simple ignorances are easily remedied." (Chapter XIII, Takodana forest)
"You find him more than tolerable." (Chapter XIII, Takodana forest)
"Consider carefully now: I could easily tell you they were all killed, righteously slain in battle. But I would prefer to be honest with you from the beginning. You will be relieved to hear that as far as their current status and well-being is concerned—I have no idea." (Chapter XIV, Rey's interrogation)

@Forsythia

Reads like the dialogue of a HAL-9000 unit.

@Armadeus

LOL! Or a pretentious teenager who just discovered thesaurus Smile

I sure am happy none of that dialogue made it into the movie, I don't think even Adam could salvage it.

by MeadowofAshes Thu 14 Jul 2016, 6:22 am

@Saracene Too bad there's not a narrator in SW though - I'd love to hear "He touched her anew" from the big screen. Lolilol

by Saracene Thu 14 Jul 2016, 7:21 am

MeadowofAshes wrote:@Saracene Too bad there's not a narrator in SW though - I'd love to hear "He touched her anew" from the big screen.

@MeadowofAshes

Barry White for Star Wars narration!

by Rimfaxe96 Thu 14 Jul 2016, 7:43 am

His dialogue in the English version sounds quite stiff compared to the German version. There's much more feeling in his German synchro. It's much worse in Rey's case, I can't stand her original voice at all, and her British accent kills it too (a nice difference from the German movie industry - unless you can speak accent-free, you'll remain unemployed as an actor for life except for minor local comedies if you're lucky).

Armadeus wrote:Reads like the dialogue of a HAL-9000 unit.

@Armadeus

Indeed, which is why I stay away from the TFA novelizations. *facepalm*

by Slade Thu 14 Jul 2016, 11:33 am

MeadowofAshes wrote:
Slade wrote:
MeadowofAshes wrote:His speech patterns came off as Kylo versus Ben to me. I don't see it being related to low IQ at all. Trauma can impact speech patterns. But I see two possibilities for Kylo speech versus Ben speech. 1. Kylo is his dark side mask so he takes on a different tone and lilt than when we see Ben come out. 2. Since Manchurian!Kylo is back on the table post Life Debt, there's the possibility Kylo voice is due to Snoke's influence while, again, Ben voice is different and more natural/emotive. We see this difference in both the interrogation and the bridge scene. "You. A scavenger" is spoken with the weird lilt whereas "You're so lonely, so afraid to leave..." sounds very emotive and doesn't have the weird lilt. On the bridge "No. The Supreme Leader is wise" has the lilt and even sounds like brainwashed speech. Whereas his "I am being torn apart" sounds absent of speech impediment and full of emotion.
@MeadowofAshes

I don't think it has anything to do with low IQ either, and I agree that "supreme leader is wise" sounds like he's repeating something he's been trained to believe but really doesn't. How can trauma impact speech? I know that extreme stress can cause people to stutter, but what else can happen?

I didn't see the scavenger comment as weird, just as him expressing disbelief and mild contempt. But yeah, his tone does change when he mind locks on her a minute later.
@Slade Researchers are working on using speech as an identifier of PTSD and depression in military vets. Depression is associated with flat, monotonous speech but for symptoms of anxiety you can have a stutter like you mentioned, or you can also have quick, abrupt, or truncated speech, speech that doesn't seem to have a natural or flowing lilt to it. "Stilted" speech has been associated with schizophrenic and narcissistic symptoms, so there's that too.

With the scavenger comment, oh yeah it's definitely disbelief and mild contempt, but when I listen to his enunciation of it something sounds off. "Yoo-oo (slightly drawn out). A (hard A, not "uh", which is odd for conversational American diction) scavenger." Then the infamous line. Then the softened, more natural voice during the probe. I can't quite nail down which mentally ill aspect they're going for, but his speech patterns seem irregular to me.

@CienaRee I think my favorite part of the "You're my guest" line is the pause and then the little breath he takes in just before it. Like he had to stop and get his bearings before he answered. And you know while he was down there staring at her while she slept he gave careful thought to what his opening line should be. And then his head cocked in confusion when he says "You still want to kill me" - they really played up the sympathetic movie monster with those. Adds to the mentally ill coding. He genuinely thinks he's being nice (and relatively speaking, compared to Poe he is, but it's not like Rey would know that) and doesn't understand why she's feels hostility toward him. Who in their right mind thinks after the girl they kidnapped wakes up strapped to an interrogation table she'll feel like a guest and not be thinking about how she can incapacitate him to get the hell outta there? Not a normally functioning person, that's for sure.

@MeadowofAshes

Speech as an identifier of PTSD? This i must know more about! Good catch on the "a scavenger" pronunciation.

by MeadowofAshes Thu 14 Jul 2016, 4:14 pm

@Slade Oh yeah, here's a couple links about it.
"Positron emission tomography (PET) scans of PTSD patients suggest that trauma affects the parts of the brain that govern speech and language."

Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Post-traumatic-stress-disorder.html#ixzz4EQ5BZaiN

“Both the content and the form of speech can be the source of biomarkers for a certain state,” said Dimitra Vergyri, assistant director at SRI’s SpeechTechnology and Research Laboratory, in a podcast. “The content refers to the actual spoken words. The form involves the acoustic characteristics that describe how you say things. Also the rhythm, how fast one speaks, the pauses between the words—all these indicate emotional state or even stress levels.”

http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Post-traumatic-stress-disorder.html

And this one specifically about PTSD, speech, and veterans.
https://www.sri.com/blog/using-speech-assess-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-veterans

by Rimfaxe96 Thu 14 Jul 2016, 6:03 pm

MeadowofAshes wrote:@Slade Oh yeah, here's a couple links about it.
"Positron emission tomography (PET) scans of PTSD patients suggest that trauma affects the parts of the brain that govern speech and language."

Read more: http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Post-traumatic-stress-disorder.html#ixzz4EQ5BZaiN

“Both the content and the form of speech can be the source of biomarkers for a certain state,” said Dimitra Vergyri, assistant director at SRI’s SpeechTechnology and Research Laboratory, in a podcast. “The content refers to the actual spoken words. The form involves the acoustic characteristics that describe how you say things. Also the rhythm, how fast one speaks, the pauses between the words—all these indicate emotional state or even stress levels.”

http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Post-traumatic-stress-disorder.html

And this one specifically about PTSD, speech, and veterans.
https://www.sri.com/blog/using-speech-assess-post-traumatic-stress-disorder-veterans

@MeadowofAshes

Can personally confirm the truth of the content; gained PTSD from 2 years of severe bullying and I began to stutter. Still do when I think of those days and 'tap' into the panic-anxiety-like feeling I memorized from the past.

by Slade Thu 14 Jul 2016, 7:14 pm

MeadowofAshes wrote:@Saracene Too bad there's not a narrator in SW though - I'd love to hear "He touched her anew" from the big screen.

@MeadowofAshes

In Snoke's voice.

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