How did killing Han weaken Kylo Ren?

it's accepted as gospel as per script and per movie but why does it weaken him?

any ideas?

Without any deeper analysis for now I would say it is the cosequence of Kylo s genuine duality in the Force.
He is nor light, nor dark.
So, how much he tried to resist "the pull to the light" he could not get rid of the light completely.
He hoped he would do it by killing Han, but he obviously failed.

A person's pact to join the dark side is signed with blood....that is why Anakin became more entrenched in the dark side after killing the jedi younglings....but in Kylo's case two things are possible:

- Manchurian candidate Kylo; and/or
- Han giving up his life willingly and with love for his son.

So we have a person killing someone against his will and/or someone giving up his life willingly to save his child. So this made sure the dark side could not get Kylo's soul....and it left him weak since the dark side seems to be stronger because it works faster.

I would say grief and regret weakened him tremendously. The sudden realization that killing his father to get rid of the "pull to the light" was neither effective nor worth it. Basically everything Han said to him on that bridge was true, and he didn't see it until it was too late. He suffered a huge loss instead of becoming stronger/eviller, and I think it's going to play a significant role in the choices he makes in the future. Han's death can be seen as a sacrifice to saving his son, even if the results are not immediate.

WhatGirl wrote:I would say grief and regret weakened him tremendously. The sudden realization that killing his father to get rid of the "pull to the light" was neither effective nor worth it. Basically everything Han said to him on that bridge was true, and he didn't see it until it was too late. He suffered a huge loss instead of becoming stronger/eviller, and I think it's going to play a significant role in the choices he makes in the future. Han's death can be seen as a sacrifice to saving his son, even if the results are not immediate.

@WhatGirl

All of this, especially the bolded. Killing Han definitely did not rid Kylo of that pull to the light like he thought it would. If killing Han couldn't extinguish the light, nothing will. I think under Snoke's training, Kylo is going to initially try to deny this, but it's going to catch up with him.

The fact he was "horrified" and "weakened" by killing his father shows he didn't get what he expected. That's going to mean something in the story. If he was meant to have come fully into the darkness with that act, he wouldn't be horrified by it.

i'm not denying that it weakened him, i just can't quite work out how.

perhaps it's a matter of definition of weakness and strength. he fears that he will never be 'as strong as darth vader' and compassion is his 'weakness' as per snoke anyway.

one way i think patricide could strengthen him is by making it a commitment to the dark side. fine. but it doesn't work. but how does it translate into weakness? does he feel more compassion now? the film doesn't seem to support that.

Made him feel....and made him feel more human...setting him on a path he will not return from....towards his redemption...
My thoughts anyway...

WhatGirl wrote:I would say grief and regret weakened him tremendously. The sudden realization that killing his father to get rid of the "pull to the light" was neither effective nor worth it. Basically everything Han said to him on that bridge was true, and he didn't see it until it was too late. He suffered a huge loss instead of becoming stronger/eviller, and I think it's going to play a significant role in the choices he makes in the future. Han's death can be seen as a sacrifice to saving his son, even if the results are not immediate.

@WhatGirl

Exactly what I thought.
It sounds crazy, but I think Kylo loved his father very much - that deleted scene where he found the Millennium Falcon proved it. Whatever he said to Rey, he wasn't disappointed in Han - I think he thought Han was disappointed in him. And sadly, it wasn't until the very end Han realised how much he'd hurt him, and the junior novel made it very clear - he didn't just forgive Kylo, he wanted him to forgive him.
I've just been listening to the soundtrack, and Kylo's theme is immediately after Rey's.

I agree with what everyone is saying. I also wonder if there is something "forcey" in it as well. Like the Force actually doesn't want him following that path, so it somewhat distances itself from him, thus making him feel less "connected" and therefore, weaker.

SoloSideCousin wrote:I agree with what everyone is saying. I also wonder if there is something "forcey" in it as well. Like the Force actually doesn't want him following that path, so it somewhat distances itself from him, thus making him feel less "connected" and therefore, weaker.

@SoloSideCousin

I think there is definitely something "forcey" - the light side of the Force in Kylo, which obviously can not be extracted.
Which led me to believe the theory from the other day over here, that after the "event of the balance of the Force" the distinction between two sides is not (and never be) so clear. It seems like a sort of evolution of the Force.

I'd say the Force as it's something Snoke has convinced him by manipulation that he needs to do in order to prove his strength and pass a test of loyalty/denial of the sentimentality that supposedly led to the Empire's fall. His whole persona is an attempt to suppress the part of him that's "weak and foolish," which is likely the light/love that makes him like his father. Also if so far it's shown that force bonds exist to some degree between family members, he has something with Leia (Hell, she carried him for 9 months so of course there's a bond) and when she feels it, he feels her pain/anguish.

The part about what Han hopes that he forgives him for is curious. Hopefully it'll be explained in the backstory. One possibility I've entertained is that if there was a kidnapping/coercion element to his fall and his family thought he was at fault and didn't come rescue him, that's sort of a betrayal on Han's part of what was done for him. When he was frozen in a slab and hauled off to Jabba, his loved ones came after him and got him out of there. He's alive because of them. Even probably made in further in life meeting these people thanks to Ben's namesake. So if they just said "oh well, kid is way too much like Vader, too bad" and washed their hands of him, that's maybe what he hopes will be forgiven. They sure made the point of saying the bridge was the first time Han had seen Ben as a grown man and not a boy.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:I agree with what everyone is saying.  I also wonder if there is something "forcey" in it as well.  Like the Force actually doesn't want him following that path, so it somewhat distances itself from him, thus making him feel less "connected" and therefore, weaker.

@SoloSideCousin

I think there is definitely something "forcey" - the light side of the Force in Kylo, which obviously can not be extracted.
Which led me to believe the theory from the other day over here, that after the "event of the balance of the Force" the distinction between two sides is not (and never be) so clear. It seems like a sort of evolution of the Force.

@Darth_Awakened

Ooooohhhhhh I like that a lot!!!  That could almost be interpreted as Biblical as well, like how God makes a new covenant with his people with Moses and with Jesus after a world/paradigm-changing event, so would the Force do after Vader's redemption.  The relationship could never be the same after that event.

snufkin wrote:I'd say the Force as it's something Snoke has convinced him by manipulation that he needs to do in order to prove his strength and pass a test of loyalty/denial of the sentimentality that supposedly led to the Empire's fall. His whole persona is an attempt to suppress the part of him that's "weak and foolish," which is likely the light/love that makes him like his father. Also if so far it's shown that force bonds exist to some degree between family members, he has something with Leia (Hell, she carried him for 9 months so of course there's a bond) and when she feels it, he feels her pain/anguish.

The part about what Han hopes that he forgives him for is curious. Hopefully it'll be explained in the backstory. One possibility I've entertained is that if there was a kidnapping/coercion element to his fall and his family thought he was at fault and didn't come rescue him, that's sort of a betrayal on Han's part of what was done for him. When he was frozen in a slab and hauled off to Jabba, his loved ones came after him and got him out of there. He's alive because of them. Even probably made in further in life meeting these people thanks to Ben's namesake. So if they just said "oh well, kid is way too much like Vader, too bad" and washed their hands of him, that's maybe what he hopes will be forgiven. They sure made the point of saying the bridge was the first time Han had seen Ben as a grown man and not a boy.

@snufkin

With the stuff that's come out in Life Debt, I am more and more convinced that something like this (a kidnapping or a coercion) is what led Ben to join the KoR...and that the "abandonment" maybe wasn't so much that his parents weren't around when he was a kid (although that was probably a factor) but that as far as he knows, they never tried to find/rescue him once he was taken.

That could also possibly play in to that "mystery year" with the events of Bloodline taking place 6 years before TFA, but Pablo saying that Kylo and Hux had only worked together for about 5 years. That initial year with the KoR could have taken place largely away from the First Order.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

With the stuff that's come out in Life Debt, I am more and more convinced that something like this (a kidnapping or a coercion) is what led Ben to join the KoR...and that the "abandonment" maybe wasn't so much that his parents weren't around when he was a kid (although that was probably a factor) but that as far as he knows, they never tried to find/rescue him once he was taken.

That could also possibly play in to that "mystery year" with the events of Bloodline taking place 6 years before TFA, but Pablo saying that Kylo and Hux had only worked together for about 5 years. That initial year with the KoR could have taken place largely away from the First Order.

@ISeeAnIsland

There was the one comment in regards to the Interrogation Scene that Rey sees "something" in him which comes into play in the next movie, not to mention her reaction to him rejecting Han's offer to take him back with them. I don't think what she saw was just that he was this sad nerd who'd like nothing better than to make a mixtape for her and go star gazing together. Best guess would be if she's intently watching the conversation about "come home with us," she knows something from having been in his mind.

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

With the stuff that's come out in Life Debt, I am more and more convinced that something like this (a kidnapping or a coercion) is what led Ben to join the KoR...and that the "abandonment" maybe wasn't so much that his parents weren't around when he was a kid (although that was probably a factor) but that as far as he knows, they never tried to find/rescue him once he was taken.

That could also possibly play in to that "mystery year" with the events of Bloodline taking place 6 years before TFA, but Pablo saying that Kylo and Hux had only worked together for about 5 years. That initial year with the KoR could have taken place largely away from the First Order.

@ISeeAnIsland

There was the one comment in regards to the Interrogation Scene that Rey sees "something" in him which comes into play in the next movie, not to mention her reaction to him rejecting Han's offer to take him back with them. I don't think what she saw was just that he was this sad nerd who'd like nothing better than to make a mixtape for her and go star gazing together. Best guess would be if she's intently watching the conversation about "come home with us," she knows something from having been in his mind.

@snufkin

Exactly. EXACTLY. I'd be willing to bet someone a drink (on top of my bet that there will be an actual Reylo kiss in VIII) that the Thing Rey Saw in Kylo's Head has to do with whatever went down at Uncle Luke's Charter School/Kylo's "turning"...and that his turning wasn't voluntary at that time.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

With the stuff that's come out in Life Debt, I am more and more convinced that something like this (a kidnapping or a coercion) is what led Ben to join the KoR...and that the "abandonment" maybe wasn't so much that his parents weren't around when he was a kid (although that was probably a factor) but that as far as he knows, they never tried to find/rescue him once he was taken.

That could also possibly play in to that "mystery year" with the events of Bloodline taking place 6 years before TFA, but Pablo saying that Kylo and Hux had only worked together for about 5 years. That initial year with the KoR could have taken place largely away from the First Order.

@ISeeAnIsland

There was the one comment in regards to the Interrogation Scene that Rey sees "something" in him which comes into play in the next movie, not to mention her reaction to him rejecting Han's offer to take him back with them. I don't think what she saw was just that he was this sad nerd who'd like nothing better than to make a mixtape for her and go star gazing together. Best guess would be if she's intently watching the conversation about "come home with us," she knows something from having been in his mind.

@snufkin

Exactly. EXACTLY. I'd be willing to bet someone a drink (on top of my bet that there will be an actual Reylo kiss in VIII) that the Thing Rey Saw in Kylo's Head has to do with whatever went down at Uncle Luke's Charter School/Kylo's "turning"...and that his turning wasn't voluntary at that time.

@ISeeAnIsland

Same way he probably saw her abandonment to Plutt as tiny little Rey and that immediately kick started his fixation/affinity. Would neatly solve the question of why she doesn't want to kill him, despite what Luke supposedly advises her to do, she knows he didn't exactly have a choice in the matter. Of course it's really easy for me to buy this idea because I have some very early childhood memories of Patty Hearst's kidnapping, including warnings from adults because there was a real fear of what the SLA might do to various communities.

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
@snufkin

With the stuff that's come out in Life Debt, I am more and more convinced that something like this (a kidnapping or a coercion) is what led Ben to join the KoR...and that the "abandonment" maybe wasn't so much that his parents weren't around when he was a kid (although that was probably a factor) but that as far as he knows, they never tried to find/rescue him once he was taken.

That could also possibly play in to that "mystery year" with the events of Bloodline taking place 6 years before TFA, but Pablo saying that Kylo and Hux had only worked together for about 5 years. That initial year with the KoR could have taken place largely away from the First Order.

@ISeeAnIsland

There was the one comment in regards to the Interrogation Scene that Rey sees "something" in him which comes into play in the next movie, not to mention her reaction to him rejecting Han's offer to take him back with them. I don't think what she saw was just that he was this sad nerd who'd like nothing better than to make a mixtape for her and go star gazing together. Best guess would be if she's intently watching the conversation about "come home with us," she knows something from having been in his mind.

@snufkin

Exactly. EXACTLY. I'd be willing to bet someone a drink (on top of my bet that there will be an actual Reylo kiss in VIII) that the Thing Rey Saw in Kylo's Head has to do with whatever went down at Uncle Luke's Charter School/Kylo's "turning"...and that his turning wasn't voluntary at that time.

@ISeeAnIsland

Same way he probably saw her abandonment to Plutt as tiny little Rey and that immediately kick started his fixation/affinity. Would neatly solve the question of why she doesn't want to kill him, despite what Luke supposedly advises her to do, she knows he didn't exactly have a choice in the matter. Of course it's really easy for me to buy this idea because I have some very early childhood memories of Patty Hearst's kidnapping, including warnings from adults because there was a real fear of what the SLA might do to various communities.

@snufkin

Totally off topic, but Jeffrey Toobin just wrote a book on the Patty Hearst case if you're interested.

Back on topic, I really am interested in a kidnapped/tortured by KoR for a year/parents don't rescue him because they think he's dark because he showed darkness before/Ben falls to despair and turns. In that situation, he could very well be a kind of Patty Hearst person. I mean there was certainly enough of that "Manchurian Candidate" stuff in Life Debt to think they are interested in something along those lines. Life Debt could be getting the hardcore used to the concept because it was never done before in SW. People always chose. Even though upset, Anakin chose because he was not experiencing serious torture and he could have just taken Padme and run away. He also wasn't trying to help the galaxy. He wanted to help himself. I think Kylo/Ben is going to be the anti-Anakin in a lot of ways.

@SoloSideCousin - Toobin's book is big news around here and he's doing a lecture next week (for $20 so I won't be going). The bank where Myrna Opshal was murdered is now a Korean church and a couple blocks from where I went to middle school. I'd argue that the Patty Hearst comparison is valid because LF is based in San Francisco and likely a lot of older employees also remember that whole crazy period of regional history (it's always funny to me talking to people from other parts of the U.S and realizing that not everybody's early childhood memories include terrorists, serial killers, assassinations, and cults)

kidnapped/tortured by KoR for a year/parents don't rescue him because they think he's dark because he showed darkness before/Ben falls to despair and turns.

That's what I've thought is what Rey saw in his mind, that she expected/hoped he'd want to come back with Han.

The Kidnapped/Coerced Ben scenario would also align with an early version of the shooting script, from what I recall. Didn't the shooting script include a scene that left it ambiguous as to whether Ben joined the KoR or was taken? From what I recall, didn't Rey's vision originally include a shot where the KoR attacks the temple, and then cuts to a shot implying that "Ben is gone"?

Now, I know that it was edited out of the movie and that there are other things from it that don't seem to fit what we saw in TFA, but it seems like it could be a possibility.

Everyone in here is so insightful. I think that after years being with Snoke, Kylo somehow have locked his heart, his emotions and feelings away, built walls around it till the point he forget how to love or be loved. That is until he face to face with Han again, I like to think that Han's death is a sacrifice Han willing to pay in order to bring the human side of his son back from the depth, kinda like a life for a life bargain. And Kylo's action after that is that he's in shocked trying to come to term with what is happening around him, regarding Han, Finn and Rey, as well as inside himself

snufkin wrote:I'd say the Force as it's something Snoke has convinced him by manipulation that he needs to do in order to prove his strength and pass a test of loyalty/denial of the sentimentality that supposedly led to the Empire's fall. His whole persona is an attempt to suppress the part of him that's "weak and foolish," which is likely the light/love that makes him like his father. Also if so far it's shown that force bonds exist to some degree between family members, he has something with Leia (Hell, she carried him for 9 months so of course there's a bond) and when she feels it, he feels her pain/anguish.

The part about what Han hopes that he forgives him for is curious. Hopefully it'll be explained in the backstory. One possibility I've entertained is that if there was a kidnapping/coercion element to his fall and his family thought he was at fault and didn't come rescue him, that's sort of a betrayal on Han's part of what was done for him. When he was frozen in a slab and hauled off to Jabba, his loved ones came after him and got him out of there. He's alive because of them. Even probably made in further in life meeting these people thanks to Ben's namesake. So if they just said "oh well, kid is way too much like Vader, too bad" and washed their hands of him, that's maybe what he hopes will be forgiven. They sure made the point of saying the bridge was the first time Han had seen Ben as a grown man and not a boy.

@snufkin

Hell - if that is what happened to Ben, then he really and truly is a victim. And his family didn't just let him down, they betrayed him big time. How awful.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

snufkin wrote:I'd say the Force as it's something Snoke has convinced him by manipulation that he needs to do in order to prove his strength and pass a test of loyalty/denial of the sentimentality that supposedly led to the Empire's fall. His whole persona is an attempt to suppress the part of him that's "weak and foolish," which is likely the light/love that makes him like his father. Also if so far it's shown that force bonds exist to some degree between family members, he has something with Leia (Hell, she carried him for 9 months so of course there's a bond) and when she feels it, he feels her pain/anguish.

The part about what Han hopes that he forgives him for is curious. Hopefully it'll be explained in the backstory. One possibility I've entertained is that if there was a kidnapping/coercion element to his fall and his family thought he was at fault and didn't come rescue him, that's sort of a betrayal on Han's part of what was done for him. When he was frozen in a slab and hauled off to Jabba, his loved ones came after him and got him out of there. He's alive because of them. Even probably made in further in life meeting these people thanks to Ben's namesake. So if they just said "oh well, kid is way too much like Vader, too bad" and washed their hands of him, that's maybe what he hopes will be forgiven. They sure made the point of saying the bridge was the first time Han had seen Ben as a grown man and not a boy.

@snufkin

Hell - if that is what happened to Ben, then he really and truly is a victim. And his family didn't just let him down, they betrayed him big time. How awful.

@motherofpearl1

*Ding Ding Ding* And this is how you get the GA on Kylo Ren's side/remove most objects to he and Rey becoming romantically involved.

motherofpearl1 wrote:

snufkin wrote:I'd say the Force as it's something Snoke has convinced him by manipulation that he needs to do in order to prove his strength and pass a test of loyalty/denial of the sentimentality that supposedly led to the Empire's fall. His whole persona is an attempt to suppress the part of him that's "weak and foolish," which is likely the light/love that makes him like his father. Also if so far it's shown that force bonds exist to some degree between family members, he has something with Leia (Hell, she carried him for 9 months so of course there's a bond) and when she feels it, he feels her pain/anguish.

The part about what Han hopes that he forgives him for is curious. Hopefully it'll be explained in the backstory. One possibility I've entertained is that if there was a kidnapping/coercion element to his fall and his family thought he was at fault and didn't come rescue him, that's sort of a betrayal on Han's part of what was done for him.  When he was frozen in a slab and hauled off to Jabba, his loved ones came after him and got him out of there. He's alive because of them. Even probably made in further in life meeting these people thanks to Ben's namesake. So if they just said "oh well, kid is way too much like Vader, too bad" and washed their hands of him, that's maybe what he hopes will be forgiven. They sure made the point of saying the bridge was the first time Han had seen Ben as a grown man and not a boy.

@snufkin

Hell - if that is what happened to Ben, then he really and truly is a victim. And his family didn't just let him down, they betrayed him big time. How awful.

@motherofpearl1

Yeah I was wondering what the writers meant some of the different breadcrumbs dropped, such as Han hoped that his son would forgive him some day. Which may be that he allowed Leia to send him away to Luke for whatever happened, instead of disagreeing with her. And even though he was originally supposed to die in the OT, he’s around because Leia et all put their a**es on the line and rescued him. You’d think that they’d do the same for their child, but that part hasn’t really been spelled out yet. So that’s what prompted my thought. But it works in terms of feeling like he’s been rejected/exiled by the people who were supposed to love/protect him. And we know that Han was rescued by people who could've washed their hands of him being a scoundrel and all. So that would seem like the biggest possible hypocrisy on the part of Ben's parents, not doing something when Ben likely had to listen to that story a million times growing up ("yes mom, I know you strangled the gangster who had Dad frozen in carbonite. You told me this story already.")

And for @SoloSideCousin and anybody else interested in the Patty Hearst case, I just realized that local girl made good Joan Didion just wrote about the case in the latest New York Times Review of Books (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/05/26/california-notes/). For anybody who’s neither a Californian or American, she’s the granddaughter of the famous (infamous?) newspaper magnet William Randolph Hurst that Citizen Kane was based on. She was kidnapped as 19 year old student by a group of self styled terrorists and ended up participating in several bank robberies (including being the getaway driver for one where a customer was murdered). When the group was finally caught, she was put on trial and eventual had her prison sentence commuted on the grounds that she had Stockholm Syndrome and had been brainwashed into participating thanks to rape and torture. The issue of whether or not she was actually brainwashed comes up frequently. Regardless, it’s a big part of regional history in this part of California, so it wouldn’t surprise me if there’s a tiny thread of inspiration for his character because Lucasfilm is based here and was in business around the time her kidnapping happened.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:

snufkin wrote:I'd say the Force as it's something Snoke has convinced him by manipulation that he needs to do in order to prove his strength and pass a test of loyalty/denial of the sentimentality that supposedly led to the Empire's fall. His whole persona is an attempt to suppress the part of him that's "weak and foolish," which is likely the light/love that makes him like his father. Also if so far it's shown that force bonds exist to some degree between family members, he has something with Leia (Hell, she carried him for 9 months so of course there's a bond) and when she feels it, he feels her pain/anguish.

The part about what Han hopes that he forgives him for is curious. Hopefully it'll be explained in the backstory. One possibility I've entertained is that if there was a kidnapping/coercion element to his fall and his family thought he was at fault and didn't come rescue him, that's sort of a betrayal on Han's part of what was done for him. When he was frozen in a slab and hauled off to Jabba, his loved ones came after him and got him out of there. He's alive because of them. Even probably made in further in life meeting these people thanks to Ben's namesake. So if they just said "oh well, kid is way too much like Vader, too bad" and washed their hands of him, that's maybe what he hopes will be forgiven. They sure made the point of saying the bridge was the first time Han had seen Ben as a grown man and not a boy.

@snufkin

Hell - if that is what happened to Ben, then he really and truly is a victim. And his family didn't just let him down, they betrayed him big time. How awful.

@motherofpearl1

*Ding Ding Ding* And this is how you get the GA on Kylo Ren's side/remove most objects to he and Rey becoming romantically involved.

@ISeeAnIsland

Not that it's going to justify murder, but if they went that route and maybe Max Von Sydow's character was unfortunately involved (his wish to "make things right" as recompense to Leia), that would be enough to provoke a lashing out. "You think I'm so horrible, do you? OK then I'm going to be horrible."

ISeeAnIsland wrote:The Kidnapped/Coerced Ben scenario would also align with an early version of the shooting script, from what I recall. Didn't the shooting script include a scene that left it ambiguous as to whether Ben joined the KoR or was taken? From what I recall, didn't Rey's vision originally include a shot where the KoR attacks the temple, and then cuts to a shot implying that "Ben is gone"?

Now, I know that it was edited out of the movie and that there are other things from it that don't seem to fit what we saw in TFA, but it seems like it could be a possibility.

@ISeeAnIsland

Yes and I think he was described as 'young Kylo Ren', which is especially interesting now we know it was only 6 years before that he was still with Luke in the events of Bloodline...I guess 23 could still be considered young.

But I like the idea of him being manipulated or forcibly taken, even if he has made bad choices for himself since then. Ben Solo can be considered the prince(ss) trapped in the castle, or a reversal of the Hades and Persephone motif that we saw play out with the bridal carry moment. Perhaps he really is the one who needs rescuing. It could be quite subversive with Rey as the heroine. I think they would still need to show Ben 'redeeming himself' - the audience would want to see he truly knows his actions have been wrong - but if that can be helped along at all with this type of backstory, it's quite a fairytale spin.

Eta: When Kylo said "I've been waiting for this day for a long time", his voice cracked. It did not at all sound like he'd been waiting to eagerly kill his father. It sounded like he could have been waiting for his family to come and get him, only now it was "too late".