Can Kylo Be Redeemed?

I do not know if someone already brought it here, however this article summarize almost everything we were talking about from the day 1.
Yes, there are indeed people out there who get who Kylo Ren is.

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2016/06/redemption-and-salvation/

Darth_Awakened wrote:I do not know if someone already brought it here, however this article summarize almost everything we were talking about from the day 1.
Yes, there are indeed people out there who get who Kylo Ren is.

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2016/06/redemption-and-salvation/

@Darth_Awakened

And comments section is pretty much "but I don't want it to be a story about redemption". well I'm sorry but that's Star wars, go watch Saw.

vaderito wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:I do not know if someone already brought it here, however this article summarize almost everything we were talking about from the day 1.
Yes, there are indeed people out there who get who Kylo Ren is.

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2016/06/redemption-and-salvation/

@Darth_Awakened

And comments section is pretty much "but I don't want it to be a story about redemption". well I'm sorry but that's Star wars, go watch Saw.

@vaderito

That s why I always tend to avoid comments sections. To avoid negative energy. And worse things.

One thing they seem to refuse to accept...
Han forgave his son.

motherofpearl1 wrote:One thing they seem to refuse to accept...
Han forgave his son.

@motherofpearl1

It baffles me that so many ignore this. They care so much about the OT trio, but refuse to see that literally none of them win if Kylo remains and dies a villain. Not Han, who wanted better for his son and forgave him in death, not Leia who is at risk of losing her only child and clearly loves him deeply, not Luke who feels as if he failed and probably partially blames himself for Ben's fall (and especially if those rumors about him wanting Kylo dead are true. No way they're going to let Luke "there is still good in him" Skywalker keep that mindset).

Nobody benefits, nobody is happy. It's just a horrible, miserable, dark ending in every respect. That's not Star Wars. Star Wars at its heart is about hope and redemption.

Somebody get a memo out to the people who are confident that "he's just going to get eeeeviilller." Or maybe that's why there's so much sniping at the writers, fans who think that they know better

Europe 2016: A Celebration of the Lucasfilm Story Group

the core Star Wars themes of compassion and selflessness

It's funny but although I want Leia and Luke to survive this trilogy, i have this image of the three of them coming back at the end as 'Force Ghosts' to see Kylo redeemed and with Rey.

Darth_Awakened wrote:I do not know if someone already brought it here, however this article summarize almost everything we were talking about from the day 1.
Yes, there are indeed people out there who get who Kylo Ren is.

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2016/06/redemption-and-salvation/

@Darth_Awakened

Ultimately, I very much doubt that a Star Wars trilogy will build to a conclusion in which a complex villain is totally irredeemable, and that our new hero must destroy him. That is not the Jedi way, and it is not the Star Wars way – it is, instead, the antithesis of everything Lucas’s Star Wars stood for.

Yep, this person gets it.

I wonder if the prequels, in a way, managed to cloud the perception of Star Wars. Even though everyone knows that they're technically telling the backstory of the character who's already had his redemption, the fact that those series end with the darkest episode where everything is ruined might have made some people forget the OT's optimism and what SW is about.

You know I think part of what led to Ben's fall and  his drastic way of thinking is that on one hand there was his family most likely trying to portect him from becoming like Vader by sending him to Luke who probably thought him to only embrace the light and now there's  Snoke telling him only to embrace the  dark side's.This kind of thinking could be detrimental to someone like Ben who was born with  equal potential of good and evil and who most likely struggled with having those two sides of him in battle with each other.I mean look at this piece of conversation Leia's having with Mon Mothma in Life Debt  about  her trying to negotiate piece treaty with the Empire:

''You want to negotitate something that is non-negotiable,''Leia hisses.She holds two hands,palms falt up.''Over here is the right things,the good thing.On the other side is the wrong path.The evil path.We have long fought to be good.To be heroes.But now?You want to negotiate in this middle space.You want to dither about it in grey.''
''It's not as simple as good and evil,Leia.''
''It is to me.''

I think it'' interesting that Life Debt and Bloodline shows how Luke and Leia think in very black and white terms.Granted Luke doesn't appear in the novel but we hear from Leia about his tendency to idolize Vader to the point of separating him and Anakin.And we also have Leia's view of the Empire as pure evil and we have Mon Mothma and Casterfo telling her that things aren't as clear cut as she's trying to make them be.
Maybe it's not  acouncidence that Kylo compares himself to his father who was more of a grey character in the OT especially ANH.He's also the first character in the ST to seperate the Force as light and dark and being held together by it which was something neither the OT and PT did.
Btw,I agree the PT could be partly why they think the ST will suddenly become GOT in space.I've actually seen some people say how non of the characters in the PT had happy edning so it could happen in this one as well.

CienaRee wrote:You know I think part of what led to Ben's fall and  his drastic way of thinking is that on one hand there was his family most likely trying to portect him from becoming like Vader by sending him to Luke who probably thought him to only embrace the light and now there's  Snoke telling him only to embrace the  dark side's.This kind of thinking could be detrimental to someone like Ben who was born with  equal potential of good and evil and who most likely struggled with having those two sides of him in battle with each other.I mean look at this piece of conversation Leia's having with Mon Mothma in Life Debt  about  her trying to negotiate piece treaty with the Empire:

''You want to negotitate something that is non-negotiable,''Leia hisses.She holds two hands,palms falt up.''Over here is the right things,the good thing.On the other side is the wrong path.The evil path.We have long fought to be good.To be heroes.But now?You want to negotiate in this middle space.You want to dither about it in grey.''
''It's not as simple as good and evil,Leia.''
''It is to me.''

I think it'' interesting that Life Debt and Bloodline shows how Luke and Leia think in very black and white terms.Granted Luke doesn't appear in the novel but we hear from Leia about his tendency to idolize Vader to the point of separating him and Anakin.And we also have Leia's view of the Empire as pure evil and we have Mon Mothma and Casterfo telling her that things aren't as clear cut as she's trying to make them be.
Maybe it's not  acouncidence that Kylo compares himself to his father who was more of a grey character in the OT especially ANH.He's also the first character in the ST to seperate the Force as light and dark and being held together by it which was something neither the OT and PT did.

@CienaRee

I like this! I think Kylo Ren still sees things as black-and-white right now, since he tries to be immune to the light and tries to split himself into "Ben," who he destroys, and "Kylo Ren." He probably doesn't see Vader as a the whole grey person he was, since he has been convinced by Snoke that Vader's "redemption" was a mistake. I think you are right that the black-and-white thinking is messing him over a lot and that he needs to go grey because he isn't made to be light or dark, but a balance of both.

I like those quotes from Leia in Aftermath: Life Debt a lot. I love it when Leia gets likes this haha. I also liked this one: "I would burn down the whole galaxy if I thought it was right." It made me think of how Adam said Kylo thinks he is right.

jakkusun wrote:

CienaRee wrote:You know I think part of what led to Ben's fall and  his drastic way of thinking is that on one hand there was his family most likely trying to portect him from becoming like Vader by sending him to Luke who probably thought him to only embrace the light and now there's  Snoke telling him only to embrace the  dark side's.This kind of thinking could be detrimental to someone like Ben who was born with  equal potential of good and evil and who most likely struggled with having those two sides of him in battle with each other.I mean look at this piece of conversation Leia's having with Mon Mothma in Life Debt  about  her trying to negotiate piece treaty with the Empire:

''You want to negotitate something that is non-negotiable,''Leia hisses.She holds two hands,palms falt up.''Over here is the right things,the good thing.On the other side is the wrong path.The evil path.We have long fought to be good.To be heroes.But now?You want to negotiate in this middle space.You want to dither about it in grey.''
''It's not as simple as good and evil,Leia.''
''It is to me.''

I think it'' interesting that Life Debt and Bloodline shows how Luke and Leia think in very black and white terms.Granted Luke doesn't appear in the novel but we hear from Leia about his tendency to idolize Vader to the point of separating him and Anakin.And we also have Leia's view of the Empire as pure evil and we have Mon Mothma and Casterfo telling her that things aren't as clear cut as she's trying to make them be.
Maybe it's not  acouncidence that Kylo compares himself to his father who was more of a grey character in the OT especially ANH.He's also the first character in the ST to seperate the Force as light and dark and being held together by it which was something neither the OT and PT did.

@CienaRee

I like this! I think Kylo Ren still sees things as black-and-white right now, since he tries to be immune to the light and tries to split himself into "Ben," who he destroys, and "Kylo Ren." He probably doesn't see Vader as a the whole grey person he was, since he has been convinced by Snoke that Vader's "redemption" was a mistake. I think you are right that the black-and-white thinking is messing him over a lot and that he needs to go grey because he isn't made to be light or dark, but a balance of both.

I like those quotes from Leia in Aftermath: Life Debt a lot. I love it when Leia gets likes this haha. I also liked this one: "I would burn down the whole galaxy if I thought it was right." It made me think of how Adam said Kylo thinks he is right.

@jakkusun

Oh,absolutely.He needs to accept that the light and dark are both parts of him.
You know it's funny how antis say Kylo can't be the only Skywalker because he's evil and psyshotic yet moments like Life Debt shows you Leia's very much Vader's daughter in ways Luke never was.He had lost of Padme in him which is why he was ultimately able to redeem his father(I think in the junior novelization they even have Vader thinking he can't let Padme's child die).I think Leia could have been teh female version of Kylo if the Empire had got to her.

ZioRen wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:One thing they seem to refuse to accept...
Han forgave his son.

@motherofpearl1

It baffles me that so many ignore this. They care so much about the OT trio, but refuse to see that literally none of them win if Kylo remains and dies a villain. Not Han, who wanted better for his son and forgave him in death, not Leia who is at risk of losing her only child and clearly loves him deeply, not Luke who feels as if he failed and probably partially blames himself for Ben's fall (and especially if those rumors about him wanting Kylo dead are true. No way they're going to let Luke "there is still good in him" Skywalker keep that mindset).

Nobody benefits, nobody is happy. It's just a horrible, miserable, dark ending in every respect. That's not Star Wars. Star Wars at its heart is about hope and redemption.

@ZioRen

What they are also failing to see is Kylo's journey is the embodiment of trying to restore balance. Defeating Snoke is the plot point the GA sees, but reclaiming what was stolen and setting him free is the process. Kylo is the metaphor for the Force's imbalance.

But hey, if they want to beat him to a pulp because it makes the antis feel better, whatevercakes.

CienaRee wrote:

jakkusun wrote:

CienaRee wrote:You know I think part of what led to Ben's fall and  his drastic way of thinking is that on one hand there was his family most likely trying to portect him from becoming like Vader by sending him to Luke who probably thought him to only embrace the light and now there's  Snoke telling him only to embrace the  dark side's.This kind of thinking could be detrimental to someone like Ben who was born with  equal potential of good and evil and who most likely struggled with having those two sides of him in battle with each other.I mean look at this piece of conversation Leia's having with Mon Mothma in Life Debt  about  her trying to negotiate piece treaty with the Empire:

''You want to negotitate something that is non-negotiable,''Leia hisses.She holds two hands,palms falt up.''Over here is the right things,the good thing.On the other side is the wrong path.The evil path.We have long fought to be good.To be heroes.But now?You want to negotiate in this middle space.You want to dither about it in grey.''
''It's not as simple as good and evil,Leia.''
''It is to me.''

I think it'' interesting that Life Debt and Bloodline shows how Luke and Leia think in very black and white terms.Granted Luke doesn't appear in the novel but we hear from Leia about his tendency to idolize Vader to the point of separating him and Anakin.And we also have Leia's view of the Empire as pure evil and we have Mon Mothma and Casterfo telling her that things aren't as clear cut as she's trying to make them be.



Maybe it's not  acouncidence that Kylo compares himself to his father who was more of a grey character in the OT especially ANH.He's also the first character in the ST to seperate the Force as light and dark and being held together by it which was something neither the OT and PT did.

@CienaRee

I like this! I think Kylo Ren still sees things as black-and-white right now, since he tries to be immune to the light and tries to split himself into "Ben," who he destroys, and "Kylo Ren." He probably doesn't see Vader as a the whole grey person he was, since he has been convinced by Snoke that Vader's "redemption" was a mistake. I think you are right that the black-and-white thinking is messing him over a lot and that he needs to go grey because he isn't made to be light or dark, but a balance of both.

I like those quotes from Leia in Aftermath: Life Debt a lot. I love it when Leia gets likes this haha. I also liked this one: "I would burn down the whole galaxy if I thought it was right." It made me think of how Adam said Kylo thinks he is right.

@jakkusun

Oh,absolutely.He needs to accept that the light and dark are both parts of him.
You know it's funny how antis say Kylo can't be the only Skywalker because he's evil and psyshotic yet moments like Life Debt shows you Leia's very much Vader's daughter in ways Luke never was.He had lost of Padme in him which is why he was ultimately able to redeem his father(I think in the junior novelization they even have Vader thinking he can't let Padme's child die).I think Leia could have been teh female version of Kylo if the Empire had got to her.

@CienaRee

Agreed, excellent post from CienaLee.

It also shows that despite Leia waxing lyrical over her love for her son in 'Bloodline', she may have inadvertently helped bring about his downfall by trying to force him to be something he's not. And yes, Leia is far more like her son than even she realises - I've always thought that Kylo, with his obsessive loyalty to a 'cause' (albeit the wrong one) is far more like his mother than Han. Han, I think should have put his foot down a bit - but he chose to leave instead. What is so irritating is much of the 'emotions' that fuel the Dark Side aren't evil, simply human nature, we are all capable of good and bad, if Kylo had learned that he would have been able to accept himself and be at peace.

I'm saying something here and I hope I'm not being offensive. My brother is gay. Luckily he's had support from his family, but others in his circle of friends did not One of them committed suicide, another has been plagued by mental health problems all his life. What I'm saying here is Han and Leia's attitude to their son reminds me of the reaction people used to have - and sadly still do - when they find out their son/daughter is gay. They can't accept it, and in some cases try to force their children to be 'straight' with tragic results. Not the same of course - and I'm not comparing sexual orientation to the Dark Side - but it's the closest comparison I can make to real life. It also happens to some kids who suffer from mental illness, and whose parents react by having them committed -the late actress Frances Farmer was one such example.

Essentially, it's what sometimes happens when an otherwise loving mum and dad have a child who they perceive as 'different' to them.

motherofpearl1 wrote:
@CienaRee

I like this! I think Kylo Ren still sees things as black-and-white right now, since he tries to be immune to the light and tries to split himself into "Ben," who he destroys, and "Kylo Ren." He probably doesn't see Vader as a the whole grey person he was, since he has been convinced by Snoke that Vader's "redemption" was a mistake. I think you are right that the black-and-white thinking is messing him over a lot and that he needs to go grey because he isn't made to be light or dark, but a balance of both.

I like those quotes from Leia in Aftermath: Life Debt a lot. I love it when Leia gets likes this haha. I also liked this one: "I would burn down the whole galaxy if I thought it was right." It made me think of how Adam said Kylo thinks he is right.

@jakkusun

Oh,absolutely.He needs to accept that the light and dark are both parts of him.
You know it's funny how antis say Kylo can't be the only Skywalker because he's evil and psyshotic yet moments like Life Debt shows you Leia's very much Vader's daughter in ways Luke never was.He had lost of Padme in him which is why he was ultimately able to redeem his father(I think in the junior novelization they even have Vader thinking he can't let Padme's child die).I think Leia could have been teh female version of Kylo if the Empire had got to her.[/quote]
@CienaRee

Agreed, excellent post from CienaLee.

It also shows that despite Leia waxing lyrical over her love for her son in 'Bloodline', she may have inadvertently helped bring about his downfall by trying to force him to be something he's not. And yes, Leia is far more like her son than even she realises - I've always thought that Kylo, with his obsessive loyalty to a 'cause' (albeit the wrong one) is far more like his mother than Han. Han, I think should have put his foot down a bit - but he chose to leave instead. What is so irritating is much of the 'emotions' that fuel the Dark Side aren't evil, simply human nature, we are all capable of good and bad, if Kylo had learned that he would have been able to accept himself and be at peace.

I'm saying something here and I hope I'm not being offensive. My brother is gay. Luckily he's had support from his family, but others in his circle of friends did not One of them committed suicide, another has been plagued by mental health problems all his life. What I'm saying here is Han and Leia's attitude to their son reminds me of the reaction people used to have - and sadly still do - when they find out their son/daughter is gay. They can't accept it, and in some cases try to force their children to be 'straight' with tragic results. Not the same of course - and I'm not comparing sexual orientation to the Dark Side - but it's the closest comparison I can make to real life. It also happens to some kids who suffer from mental illness, and whose parents react by having them committed -the late actress Frances Farmer was one such example.

Essentially, it's what sometimes happens when an otherwise loving mum and dad have a child who they perceive as 'different' to them.[/quote]
@motherofpearl1

He's very much his mother's son and it can't be a coincidence in many ways that Rey and Han are kindred spirits. They both come from a lower social class/rougher milieu where it's not possible to operate on a strict black and white moral code because of the characters you have to deal with in order to survive. And it also can't be coincidental that he has the line (really showing the evolution of both his thinking and where the series is headed) about the Force holding the Light and Dark together. We suspect it's foreshadowing about his son and this young woman he's just met and quickly grown fond of, but it's likely also going to be her thinking. That she'll be the first one to see that both have to coexist together for harmony and that'll be a bridge to help him come back to the side he should be on (LST and Maz's cryptic words).

'm saying something here and I hope I'm not being offensive. My brother is gay. Luckily he's had support from his family, but others in his circle of friends did not One of them committed suicide, another has been plagued by mental health problems all his life. What I'm saying here is Han and Leia's attitude to their son reminds me of the reaction people used to have - and sadly still do - when they find out their son/daughter is gay. They can't accept it, and in some cases try to force their children to be 'straight' with tragic results. Not the same of course - and I'm not comparing sexual orientation to the Dark Side - but it's the closest comparison I can make to real life. It also happens to some kids who suffer from mental illness, and whose parents react by having them committed -the late actress Frances Farmer was one such example.

I think a lot of people see those parallels and that's why this character really touches them (and they feel protective against the purists who straight up hate him).

Yes, and it's wonderful that so many people have someone to identify with - I desperately want Kylo to be redeemed because the message is, no matter how damaged you are, you can still come back.
It's never too late.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Yes, and it's wonderful that so many people have someone to identify with - I desperately want Kylo to be redeemed because the message is, no matter how damaged you are, you can still come back.
It's never too late.

@motherofpearl1

More so, no matter how damaged you are, you are still deserving of love from friends, family and lovers.

Macha Ren wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:Yes, and it's wonderful that so many people have someone to identify with - I desperately want Kylo to be redeemed because the message is, no matter how damaged you are, you can still come back.
It's never too late.

@motherofpearl1

More so, no matter how damaged you are, you are still deserving of love from friends, family and lovers.

@Macha Ren

The bolded seems to be the overall philosophy shared by those of us here, the basic reason why I read the hate comments about this character and wonder what those posters are like on jury duty.

I've always been amazed at how people already want Kylo crucified after one film. He did kill Han, but look at everything Vader did. How can people so easily assume he won't have a good character arc or redemption?

Helix wrote:I've always been amazed at how people already want Kylo crucified after one film. He did kill Han, but look at everything Vader did. How can people so easily assume he won't have a good character arc or redemption?

@Helix
Becouse he killed Han Solo. For some people he is their hero, best character, bad*** scoundrel who shot first. He is more important for them than younglings, Obi-Wan, Kendal Ozzel and all Jedi, imperials Vader killed. Another reason is that Kylo killed someone who is related to him, his father. Even Vader couldn't have done this.

I think that everyone can be redeemed if they want but some need much more help. I'm almost certain that Kylo will be redeemed. He's the last Skywalker, Leia's son. I don't think he will die as a villan. He's equal potential for good and evil. We'll see in future movies not only his evil side but also the good one.

Geralt_Riv wrote:

Helix wrote:I've always been amazed at how people already want Kylo crucified after one film. He did kill Han, but look at everything Vader did. How can people so easily assume he won't have a good character arc or redemption?

@Helix
Becouse he killed Han Solo. For some people he is their hero, best character, bad*** scoundrel who shot first. He is more important for them than younglings, Obi-Wan, Kendal Ozzel and all Jedi, imperials Vader killed. Another reason is that Kylo killed someone who is related to him, his father. Even Vader couldn't have done this.

I think that everyone can be redeemed if they want but some need much more help. I'm almost certain that Kylo will be redeemed. He's the last Skywalker, Leia's son. I don't think he will die as a villan. He's equal potential for good and evil. We'll see in future movies not only his evil side but also the good one.

@Geralt_Riv

Exactly. That's why I don't see him get worse cause there's nowhere to go. Canon fodder characters (padawans, villagers, etc), that we know nothing about and therefore don't care, don't carry the same weight as a character many grew up idolizing. At the same time, having him kill another OT character (Luke or Leia) would be redundant and wouldn't have the impact of Han Slaying. So that's off table. han was it, he now has to face his guilt and grief and what/who really led him to taking that step.

I think it's a bit much to assume people didn't care about the younglings, we didn't know them, but they were still children. That did turn off many people to the Vader redemption, not everyone, but some. Killing kids is a pretty big deal, even if they're not Han Solo.

I'm not close to my father so Patricide was never the biggest deal to me in fiction and I can't relate to it being 'the biggest sin'. I'm sure if it's done right people will let ( begrudgingly ) go of the Han Solo thing, because he died trying to save his son and died believing he could still be good.

Helix wrote:I'm not close to my father so Patricide was never the biggest deal to me in fiction and I can't relate to it being 'the biggest sin'. I'm sure if it's done right people will let ( begrudgingly ) go of the Han Solo thing, because he died trying to save his son and died believing he could still be good.

@Helix

I think that matricide would be considered by far a bigger sin than patricide. If Kylo killed Leia instead, I don't think anyone would have thought him redeemable. Killing either parent is terrible, but I do think there's a hierarchy of sorts.

Saracene wrote:

Helix wrote:I'm not close to my father so Patricide was never the biggest deal to me in fiction and I can't relate to it being 'the biggest sin'. I'm sure if it's done right people will let ( begrudgingly ) go of the Han Solo thing, because he died trying to save his son and died believing he could still be good.

@Helix

I think that matricide would be considered by far a bigger sin than patricide. If Kylo killed Leia instead, I don't think anyone would have thought him redeemable. Killing either parent is terrible, but I do think there's a hierarchy of sorts.

@Saracene

I do agree, we see more hope for good and remorse from Leia, I feel. There is something especially evil about matricide, the son/mother relationship has always been a big thing in fiction and I feel like mothers in general are known for being more open and loving. Not that open and strong bonds can't form with fathers... but I think she cares deeply for him despite everything. She was quick to say that it was Snoke who as behind his fall compared to Han's "Vader" thing.

Saracene wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:I do not know if someone already brought it here, however this article summarize almost everything we were talking about from the day 1.
Yes, there are indeed people out there who get who Kylo Ren is.

http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2016/06/redemption-and-salvation/

@Darth_Awakened

Ultimately, I very much doubt that a Star Wars trilogy will build to a conclusion in which a complex villain is totally irredeemable, and that our new hero must destroy him. That is not the Jedi way, and it is not the Star Wars way – it is, instead, the antithesis of everything Lucas’s Star Wars stood for.

Yep, this person gets it.

I wonder if the prequels, in a way, managed to cloud the perception of Star Wars. Even though everyone knows that they're technically telling the backstory of the character who's already had his redemption, the fact that those series end with the darkest episode where everything is ruined might have made some people forget the OT's optimism and what SW is about.

@Saracene

True.  Lucas says despite ROTS ending on a dark note the OT stands to show that Vader's story will ultimately end on a positive note.  So in a sense he viewed it as slight preamble to the real ending of the story.

Am I a bad person if I still would see Kylo as redeemable had he killed Leia? Maybe not the Leia we met in TFA because she seemed to be still rooting for him while Han sort of gave up, but to me matricide is not worse than patricide. There are as many bad mothers as there are bad fathers imo. And I am NOT saying that Han and Leia were bad parents, ok? Just saying that for me patricide and matricide are one and the same. Maybe because I am a woman and childless so I don't idolize mothers that much.

I think a lot of men actually have a hard time with the patricide part, which is interesting because I know quite a few who have issues with their father but still see him as a figure of authority not to be touched.