The Temper Tantrums

i don't know, have we discussed this and come to some conclusion already?

because there are two, you see.

if there are two things in a movie, we are invited to compare them maybe?

why do you think we are given two? the only difference i see is that the second is potentially more savage and acompanied by screaming.

discuss away.

Kylo was crying and screaming during the second tantrum because he was upset that Rey left the party without telling him and he really wanted her to stay with him... :'(

My take on it was that the second tantrum was used to establish that these tantrums are indeed a behavior pattern with him.

The second one had the bonus of including the shot from outside the interrogation room where the two stormtroopers were approaching, heard the tantrum inside, then stopped and turned around and walked the other way. So clearly, he's done this enough that it's probably been a gossip topic among the stormtroopers.

I wouldn't be surprised if his tantrums/outbursts were something that was a part of his personality before he fell.

All Skywalkers have tantrums.

Luke is a moan bag of the highest degree! (I love him though and I am just messing so please don't go mad at me LOL)

"It just isn't FAIR!"

Evazan: "He doesn't like you."
Luke: "Sorry."
Evazan: "I don't like you either."

Luke is instantly disliked!

Luke: *notices a flashing light* ... What's that flashing? *instantly goes to touch flashing thingy*
Han Solo: *slaps Luke's hand away*

Impatient in Yodas lair.....

Princess Leia is stubborn and thinks Chewie is a carpet and Han is a moon jockey!

Anakin Skywalker has a beef with sand!

Kylo Ren hates computers! and General Hux but peace and serenity comes when he meets Rey....aahhh

I think he threw the second tantrum for a pretty valid reason. He'd lost the girl, who was not only kinda cute but also his only source for the map since he'd let the droid go. The loss of the map and droid which means the Ileenium system, where he knows his mother is, will be blown up.

It's interesting to note, I think, that his two fits happened when he was masked. We had no idea what his enraged expression was like. Then later he unmasks and for the most part seems calm and collected, if insecure in a boyish way.

In fact this moment close to the end of the movie is the first time we actually see his angry, unhinged face:



Before that we knew that he was capable of flying into an uncontrollable rage but hadn't seen his face when he did, which made this shot more effectively dramatic.

Beyond his temper tantrums being a key part of establishing his more unhinged side, I also think they were there to differentiate him from Vader. Everyone remembers Vader force-choking anyone who displeased him, even when they were on his side. Meanwhile, Kylo destroys equipment instead.

ZioRen wrote:Beyond his temper tantrums being a key part of establishing his more unhinged side, I also think they were there to differentiate him from Vader. Everyone remembers Vader force-choking anyone who displeased him, even when they were on his side. Meanwhile, Kylo destroys equipment instead.

@ZioRen

Trufax. Kylo is no Vader... in a good way.

The tantrums are played for laughs with poor Mitaka (you know he drew the short straw) and the troopers who are like "nope" and walk away while ignoring his screams for the guards to come. But even if he doesn't choke anybody, when the mask comes off and he sees poor Finn, that's when it gets scary. Granted he doesn't kill Finn, but that fight was brutal and ugly on many different levels. Not just because he was jealous over the girl he's after is leaving the party with another guy, but everything else (projecting his own issues and rage over what Finn's been able to accomplish b/c of initially being spared). Gotta wonder how much of that behavior is going to reappear when he finally shows up on Rey's doorstep again? And whatever's in store for his backstory, how much of a temper did he have and how did that play into whatever went wrong?

ZioRen wrote:Beyond his temper tantrums being a key part of establishing his more unhinged side, I also think they were there to differentiate him from Vader. Everyone remembers Vader force-choking anyone who displeased him, even when they were on his side. Meanwhile, Kylo destroys equipment instead.

@ZioRen

Vader also used his force choking as a method of spreading fear and keeping control over the officers, I think. Kylo didn't do his second tantrum in front of anyone (even though the nope troopers saw a bit of it, Kylo didn't know that). It shows, in my opinion, how his tantrums aren't him trying to intimidate people. He is just reckless and has quite a temper. I've talked to people who think Kylo was trying to scare Mitaka with his tantrum, but I don't think that is the main goal of his tantrums, since he still destroys stuff when no one is watching, too. I think he just gets mad and doesn't care about collateral damage, like when he grabbed Mitaka by the throat with the the force. That's why the nope troopers knew to back up, too, probably.

I think they are actually meltdowns more than 'tantrums',describing them as tantrums makes him seem like a sulky little brat where what he is,is a deeply damaged man. I think a lot of his anger stems from pain,to be honest.

@motherofpearl1 i did worry about giving this a title for a while actually. and i didn't know what was a better description.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:My take on it was that the second tantrum was used to establish that these tantrums are indeed a behavior pattern with him.

I wouldn't be surprised if his tantrums/outbursts were something that was a part of his personality before he fell.

@ISeeAnIsland

i don't know if we have to see something twice to assume that's how he does things, but it's certainly true of the sabre twirling.

i see them as something that was brought on by being exposed to the dark side. but it could equally be a lack of coping earlier in his life. i just find it very visceral .. and unlike vader which is why i don't think it would have tipped han off to think he's got too much vader in him.

WhatGirl wrote:It's interesting to note, I think, that his two fits happened when he was masked.

@WhatGirl

good point. i sometimes think of him as someone who is more private with the mask on and so for him he might just go off into his own little thing when having a meltdown.

snufkin wrote:The tantrums are played for laughs

@snufkin

but why do that twice? a lot of what he does is played for laughs. when you see the second one, without the shot to the troopers, it's just savage and pretty raw actually. with mitaka, it feel much less raw to me.

@jakkusun i don't think he was trying to scare mitaka either. i kind of read that scene especially as him having telekinetic powers and for us to see that more. i think in all those scenes in the beginning he comes across as someone unstoppable and unruleable (is that a word?) - like a force of nature. he is in command in a way, although of course the tantrum tells you otherwise as well. but it tells you of his relationship to his own power and to his coping mechanisms. no tolerance for failure.

but the point is, the point is repeated. and it's nice but i wonder why.

The two tantrums seemed different to me.  The first struck me as extreme frustration, bad day at the office type of deal.  I've seen plenty of those at work, though fortunately we aren't able to drag each other across the floor like that!

The second struck me as somebody absolutely reeling out of control.  I think Rey entering his mind and seeing his deepest fears must have felt like being pulled inside out.

The only things about Ren's outbursts that I found funny was the stormtroopers and Mitaka's reactions to them - I actually started to feel sorry for him after the first one.
But....as someone who's experienced meltdowns myself - though nowhere near as destructive as his - I think I kind of identified with him.

guardienne wrote:

snufkin wrote:The tantrums are played for laughs

@snufkin

but why do that twice? a lot of what he does is played for laughs. when you see the second one, without the shot to the troopers, it's just savage and pretty raw actually. with mitaka, it feel much less raw to me.

@guardienne

As with other details in the story, there are two incidents played for comparison. First time is to establish a couple of points, including that he has a destructive rage but not in the same out-of-control way that Vader shows in ESB with continually killing his men. It also shows a difference from what you might expect after seeing him at the beginning, murdering a former teacher and ordering that the village be wiped out. Final detail is that his reaction to the first mention of Rey's role in the escape. It's foreshadowing that they're going to intersect and that his interest in her is deeply personal. Although at the time when I saw TFA, I thought maybe it's just he's cracking because she's a wild card. He assumes that she escaped from the village as a witness (he already knows from Poe that the map was stored in BB- and/or member of LST's group.

Second time, definitely more angry/out of control. Again open to interpretation besides the fact that Rey managed to escape, if he already knows that she pwned James Bond with the Jedi Mind Trick, that she's becoming more "dangerous" to whatever agenda he has. Plus she has the map knowledge and he knows enough of her escape from Jakku to rightly panic that she's going to hot wire a ship and get out of there the same way Poe did.

The laughs part is definitely the reaction shot of the troopers. Everybody in the theater laughed at that detail because who wouldn't do the same self preserving act in that moment, especially when he's screaming for "Guards!"

Sacrebleu wrote:The second struck me as somebody absolutely reeling out of control.  I think Rey entering his mind and seeing his deepest fears must have felt like being pulled inside out.

@Sacrebleu

I think that's part of it for him, why he runs off to Snoke (who's incredulous that she resisted him). Should also make things interesting between the two of them because it levels the playing field. She can't match his physical strength, but her FS powers are equal to his and she's incredibly street smart from living by her wits in Jakku. That part probably makes her both incredibly attractive and also incredibly frightening to him.

do you guys think he does this on purpose at all? i used to think snoke had basically said, carry on unleashing yourself on the equipment, feel your anger, feel your frustration etc. and obviously it serves snoke's purpose froma certain pov because someone who doesn't control himself like that is, to me, someone who you can manipulate easier, no? in a button-pressing sort of way.

i do wonder if the intensity of the second one really had to do with rey slipping through his fingers like that. humiliating him and then slipping through his fingers. like, in my imagination he's had visions of her, he knows he will meet her and that she is important to him, perhaps he doesn't quite know how, and so her slipping away is an even greater crisis.

guardienne wrote:do you guys think he does this on purpose at all? i used to think snoke had basically said, carry on unleashing yourself on the equipment, feel your anger, feel your frustration etc. and obviously it serves snoke's purpose froma certain pov because someone who doesn't control himself like that is, to me, someone who you can manipulate easier, no? in a button-pressing sort of way.

i do wonder if the intensity of the second one really had to do with rey slipping through his fingers like that. humiliating him and then slipping through his fingers. like, in my imagination he's had visions of her, he knows he will meet her and that she is important to him, perhaps he doesn't quite know how, and so her slipping away is an even greater crisis.

@guardienne

Having known people with that kind of rage, I'd say it's not on purpose or premeditated. He just gets hit with situations that are out of control, that provoke his emotions, and that's how he responds. It's definitely something which Snoke has allowed to become habit, because like you say, it serves his needs of having somebody that powerful undermined by that behavior (compare with how cool and collected Rey behaves when she's in a bad situation). It also underlines the immaturity of this character - he's being guided by adolescent impulses and resentments. Again, Snoke wants him in this immature state because it serves his purposes.

Second part, agreed. His outrage is 100% about loss of control in the situation because she manages to outwit him on both levels. No map and she escapes, presumably to get the Hell out of there. Beyond the map, it's ambiguous what else he wants from her, even before she very clearly shoves back and tips her hand that she's equally FS as he is. But he's definitely persistent and fixated when it comes to her, so the rage is in response to her leaving and in his mind, denying what he wants from her.

guardienne wrote:do you guys think he does this on purpose at all? i used to think snoke had basically said, carry on unleashing yourself on the equipment, feel your anger, feel your frustration etc. and obviously it serves snoke's purpose froma certain pov because someone who doesn't control himself like that is, to me, someone who you can manipulate easier, no? in a button-pressing sort of way.

i do wonder if the intensity of the second one really had to do with rey slipping through his fingers like that. humiliating him and then slipping through his fingers. like, in my imagination he's had visions of her, he knows he will meet her and that she is important to him, perhaps he doesn't quite know how, and so her slipping away is an even greater crisis.

@guardienne

Actually with both meltdowns there are serious issues at stake.  Kylo is desperate to get the map to Luke.  Remember Snoke is fine letting the droid and map be destroyed.  Kylo, on the other hand, is all about getting to Luke.  In the first meltdown, he loses the way to Luke basically *because* he had that moment of mercy with Finn and didn't kill him when he had the chance on Jakku.  Had he killed Finn, he might be closer to his goal, which whatever it is, seems huge to him.  And then of course, there's the "What Girl?" thing, which is yet to be explained, but which I figure must be pretty core with him, given how interested he is even before he meets her, how he treats her when he does meet her, and the whole "Marry Me!" face moment in the Snow Fight.

The other meltdown is also a big deal because not only does (1) her escape mean humiliation and failure, but also (2) "What girl" and whatever importance she has in his mind just got away and he doesn't want that for personal reasons, but also, and maybe most importantly, (3) he doesn't want his mother to get blown up and he thinks that if he can get Rey to talk that maybe he can stop the blowing up of D'Qar.  I mean there is evidence, not slam dunk, but decent evidence that he was the one to let his mother know that she was the next target.

So to me the meltdowns mean a lot of things.  (1) He destroys things, not people, when upset.  A big improvement from Grandpa; (2) Comic Relief.  The audience is not supposed to be as terrified of Kylo as they were supposed to be of Vader or the Emperor.  It's signaling that he is in a different category. (I mean that's part of the reason why his killing of Han is so powerful, because he seems so capable of going the other way). I mean they don't give any comedy for Hux.  He's no Tarkin, but the messaging is that Hux is straight up bad.  With Kylo, it's just another hint that there is more to him than the black mask.

And (3), I think that the shows of disagreement with Snoke regarding blowing up the planets and wanting the map at all costs, along with his offer to be Rey's teacher, indicate that Kylo has an agenda different from Snoke's ... and frankly, that unknown agenda that includes wanting the map and not seeing planets destroyed is put into extreme jeopardy during both meltdown incidents.  In other words, at both moments, something that is crazy important to him is getting seriously f------ up.

And finally (4), other agendas or not, the meltdowns show that Kylo/Ben is not a cool customer.  His emotions are right there under the surface and his control over them can be pretty poor at times ... which is shown again and again through his unstable behavior throughout the film (talking to Vader's helmet, always teary-eyed, freaked out by Rey, the entire catwalk scene where his father is evoking real sympathy and emotion and yet at some point he kills him anyway, only to go down a long and bumpy hill of erratic emotion and nervous breakdown for the rest of the film).

I think the meltdowns might be a metaphor similar to his lightsaber.  Sometimes that thing just works fine ... other times it's sparking all over the place and might turn on and off out of nowhere ... It's like everything in the character can be encapsulated in the catwalk scene ... He is just a ball of erratic emotion and behavior.  First he is controlled with his "Supreme Leader is wise" nonsense, then the Dad says a few things and he has to do everything to keep from sobbing, then he hardens again for the kill, but seconds later he is falling apart again and kind of doesn't stop until he's on the ground.

@solosidecousin, thanks for summing it up so succinctly!

the meltdown definitely happens because of serious stuff at stake. i just thought it'd be worth investigating why we get to see two of them and one reason could just have to do with differing intensity. and of course they contrast with vader. i think if you see them in isolation, they are pretty terrifying actually. not that i think he does this to be terrifying, but just as an act in itself.

what occurred to me just now is how much it must sting to be *told* about how one's own inadequacy in terms of the person one wishes to live up to and then to fall into the beahviour pattern that grandpa also markedly never displayed. basically he is confirming his own fears here.

and also, because like @snufkin i don't believe he does this on purpose, it's just something that happens to him basically, i wonder how ashamed he is.

snufkin wrote:

guardienne wrote:do you guys think he does this on purpose at all? i used to think snoke had basically said, carry on unleashing yourself on the equipment, feel your anger, feel your frustration etc. and obviously it serves snoke's purpose froma certain pov because someone who doesn't control himself like that is, to me, someone who you can manipulate easier, no? in a button-pressing sort of way.

i do wonder if the intensity of the second one really had to do with rey slipping through his fingers like that. humiliating him and then slipping through his fingers. like, in my imagination he's had visions of her, he knows he will meet her and that she is important to him, perhaps he doesn't quite know how, and so her slipping away is an even greater crisis.

@guardienne

Having known people with that kind of rage, I'd say it's not on purpose or premeditated. He just gets hit with situations that are out of control, that provoke his emotions, and that's how he responds. It's definitely something which Snoke has allowed to become habit, because like you say, it serves his needs of having somebody that powerful undermined by that behavior (compare with how cool and collected Rey behaves when she's in a bad situation).  It also underlines the immaturity of this character - he's being guided by adolescent impulses and resentments. Again, Snoke wants him in this immature state because it serves his purposes.

Second part, agreed. His outrage is 100% about loss of control in the situation because she manages to outwit him on both levels. No map and she escapes, presumably to get the Hell out of there.  Beyond the map, it's ambiguous what else he wants from her, even before she very clearly shoves back and tips her hand that she's equally FS as he is. But he's definitely persistent and fixated when it comes to her, so the rage is in response to her leaving and in his mind, denying what he wants from her.

@snufkin

For what it's worth, the novelization says:





Obviously, the accuracy of the novelization is debatable, but I think there might still be a possibility Snoke teaches control and suppression of emotion, rather than encoruaging out-of-control behavior.

And it might be why Kylo Ren is so volatile at times. He usually suppresses everything, and it is tearing him apart inside and comes out in angry bursts. Teaching Kylo Ren to control and suppress his emotions might still be to Snoke's advantage, somehow.

Hopefully, we can learn more about the philosophies and teachings of Snoke in VIII because I'm interested to see how he differs from Sheev and the Sith.

guardienne wrote:

and also, because like @snufkin i don't believe he does this on purpose, it's just something that happens to him basically, i wonder how ashamed he is.

@guardienne

My guess is that the loss of control (depends on who taught him that principle, Luke or Snoke) and failure to measure up to an imaginary ideal is part of what triggers the meltdowns. He's literally acting out the emotions towards himself. At least he seems like somebody who works very hard to project this image of strength, importance, and control as a shield for how he actually feels inside. And Rey manages (women always figure out the truth) to see through that quite clearly, plus his attack on Finn does come across as projection.

@jakkusun

Thanks for sharing that! Yeah will be interesting to see how much of that detail comes from earlier drafts of the movie versus the novelization author's invention. There has to be a contrast between him and Rey in this regard, because she's had to control everything in order to survive daily life on Jakku. Or she's always in low level crisis mode just trying to get enough to eat and also not fall victim to the brutal nature of the society she lives in. So she doesn't have the luxury of giving full vent, at least not until the fight when she sort of cracks and goes completely wild on him (sort of the same thing he did to Finn).

As for who taught the meditation and control, be interesting to see how much they show of Snoke's influence over him via Luke. Could see maybe chill dude Luke teaching him a la Obi Wan to suppress his emotions, which probably would not work very well based on what's been shown of his personality. Anything Snoke does is likely meant to manipulate his personality traits in order to keep him in a servile position.

Watching the tantrums made me think he is actually lashing out in response to Ben Solo still being in there. That he still has that light even though he wants to be dark so desperately.

The first one is right after Mitaka mentioned fn-2187, and it was Kylo's own fault for not reporting what happened at the village to Hux or Phasma. He is angry at himself for allowing Finn to escape, take Poe, and set everything in motion.

The second is right after what would have been the compassion scene - which we know was filmed, but ultimately not included in the film. Kylo was unable to get the map from Rey because, according to Snoke, it's not about her strength, but his weakness. Maybe he thinks he could have been tougher, forced it from her mind and not been distracted by her thoughts. So when he realizes she's escaped, he's again blaming himself. It's never really about frightening others, or trying to be tough like Vader, it's self-loathing. He hates Ben Solo.

BastilaBey wrote:Watching the tantrums made me think he is actually lashing out in response to Ben Solo still being in there. That he still has that light even though he wants to be dark so desperately.

The first one is right after Mitaka mentioned fn-2187, and it was Kylo's own fault for not reporting what happened at the village to Hux or Phasma. He is angry at himself for allowing Finn to escape, take Poe, and set everything in motion.

The second is right after what would have been the compassion scene - which we know was filmed, but ultimately not included in the film. Kylo was unable to get the map from Rey because, according to Snoke, it's not about her strength, but his weakness. Maybe he thinks he could have been tougher, forced it from her mind and not been distracted by her thoughts. So when he realizes she's escaped, he's again blaming himself. It's never really about frightening others, or trying to be tough like Vader, it's self-loathing. He hates Ben Solo.

@BastilaBey

I'd be willing to bet a big part of the mysterious whatever Rey saw in him (and feels conflicted about) is Ben

snufkin wrote:

guardienne wrote:

snufkin wrote:The tantrums are played for laughs

@snufkin

but why do that twice? a lot of what he does is played for laughs. when you see the second one, without the shot to the troopers, it's just savage and pretty raw actually. with mitaka, it feel much less raw to me.

@guardienne

As with other details in the story, there are two incidents played for comparison. First time is to establish a couple of points, including that he has a destructive rage but not in the same out-of-control way that Vader shows in ESB with continually killing his men. It also shows a difference from what you might expect after seeing him at the beginning, murdering a former teacher and ordering that the village be wiped out. Final detail is that his reaction to the first mention of Rey's role in the escape. It's foreshadowing that they're going to intersect and that his interest in her is deeply personal. Although at the time when I saw TFA, I thought maybe it's just he's cracking because she's a wild card. He assumes that she escaped from the village as a witness (he already knows from Poe that the map was stored in BB- and/or member of LST's group.

Second time, definitely more angry/out of control. Again open to interpretation besides the fact that Rey managed to escape, if he already knows that she pwned James Bond with the Jedi Mind Trick, that she's becoming more "dangerous" to whatever agenda he has. Plus she has the map knowledge and he knows enough of her escape from Jakku to rightly panic that she's going to hot wire a ship and get out of there the same way Poe did.

The laughs part is definitely the reaction shot of the troopers. Everybody in the theater laughed at that detail because who wouldn't do the same self preserving act in that moment, especially when he's screaming for "Guards!"

Sacrebleu wrote:The second struck me as somebody absolutely reeling out of control.  I think Rey entering his mind and seeing his deepest fears must have felt like being pulled inside out.

@Sacrebleu

I think that's part of it for him, why he runs off to Snoke (who's incredulous that she resisted him). Should also make things interesting between the two of them because it levels the playing field. She can't match his physical strength, but her FS powers are equal to his and she's incredibly street smart from living by her wits in Jakku. That part probably makes her both incredibly attractive and also incredibly frightening to him.

@snufkin

He's terrified of appearing vulnerable,which is ironic because he's been vulnerable all his life,and been made to see it as weakness.

@motherofpearl1 i do think that being vulnerable is a weakness actually, it means you get hurt easily.

i think it's being emotional and actually feeling everything that he regards as a weakness.

@jakkusun i like to think that we don't actually know whether snoke likes the temper tantrums and whether he is now also failing snoke. man! thanks for sharing those excerpts. i'm beginning to think think that snoke also asks for celibacy, which then means that wherever he goes with all the force capacity, people are going, no emotions, no attachments. which is really restrictive.

I actually think Kylo is very strong. He's scared but he hides it -he fought bravely despite his injuries. Rewatching the film I can't get over how many times he keeps getting up despite the wounds he gets in the duel with Rey. He's a lonely, broken, mentally ill man who hides it behind a false front of arrogance and confidence when inside he's probably screaming.
He's many things. But weak,cowardly,a cry baby. Never in a million years.