The Temper Tantrums

no i don't think he's weak either, not as such. i think his conflict weakens him. because there is in-fighting, because he represses himself, he will continue to experience meltdowns. because he can't integrate himself fully.

It's the difference between Kylo and Hux. Both of them vie for the attention of Snoke, their father substitute. But Hux, son of an imperial officer, is exactly where he wants to be, commander of the First Order - a dream come true for the b*****d son of a serving girl. Whereupon Kylo, a child of rebels,struggles to fit in.
I wonder if Ben Solo's problem was too many people wanted him to be like Han,or Luke,or Obi Wan, instead of accepting him for who he is. Which is why he may find a place with someone who just wants Ben Solo,not Luke's nephew, Han and Leia's son or Obi Wan's namesake.

[quote="BastilaBey"]Watching the tantrums made me think he is actually lashing out in response to Ben Solo still being in there. That he still has that light even though he wants to be dark so desperately.

The first one is right after Mitaka mentioned fn-2187, and it was Kylo's own fault for not reporting what happened at the village to Hux or Phasma. He is angry at himself for allowing Finn to escape, take Poe, and set everything in motion.

The second is right after what would have been the compassion scene - which we know was filmed, but ultimately not included in the film. Kylo was unable to get the map from Rey because, according to Snoke, it's not about her strength, but his weakness. Maybe he thinks he could have been tougher, forced it from her mind and not been distracted by her thoughts. So when he realizes she's escaped, he's again blaming himself. It's never really about frightening others, or trying to be tough like Vader, it's self-loathing. He hates Ben Solo.[/quote]
@BastilaBey

And that's what makes him so tragic,in my book. This kid hates himself. And Snoke, who offered him a 'mentor' and father figure,is feeding that self loathing. Making him feel ashamed of who he is, making him see his basic decency as a 'character flaw'- compassion described as weakness. Playing both Kylo and Hux against one another, making these two lost kids antagonists -I'm not a great fan of Hux but he was a child once-it all shows how truly evil Snoke is. Take away his supernatural powers and at the end of the day he's nothing but a slimy child abuser.

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's the difference between Kylo and Hux. Both of them vie for the attention of Snoke, their father substitute. But Hux, son of an imperial officer, is exactly where he wants to be, commander of the First Order - a dream come true for the b*****d son of a serving girl. Whereupon Kylo, a child of rebels,struggles to fit in.
I wonder if Ben Solo's problem was too many people wanted him to be like Han,or Luke,or Obi Wan, instead of accepting him for who he is. Which is why he may find a place with someone who just wants Ben Solo,not Luke's nephew, Han and Leia's son or Obi Wan's namesake.

@motherofpearl1

That was one of the takeaways from my first viewing, how he's still trying to act out a role by trying to be like his biological grandfather. That's one of the reasons his behavior around Rey caught my attention, because his mask both literally and figuratively drops. He's more himself when he's around her, which is something he's worked so hard not to be (with Snoke's 'guidance' of course). You know that she manages to pull the most vulnerable part of who he is out of him, hence the panic and running away after their first face off. More than just pulling a bunch of magic tricks out of his mind is that she's managed to see through the facade to see who he actually is (Han's line). So she sees that part pretty clearly, which makes her both incredibly attractive and incredibly dangerous to him. The dangerous part will likely continue to drive his behavior towards her, because she's humbled him and undermined his defense system.

on a very random note, i found something about a mevieval poem today:

Psychomachia (Soul war) of different traits fighting each other.

these are the vices



and the virtues:



a) i think it's cute that both sides are potrayed by knights (apparently in the poem all personifications are women) and

b) what a cool cool title.

c) i wonder whether the meltdowns can be framed in this way at all.

and because the split interests me, here's the encyclopaedia britannica on dualism

Dualism, in religion, the doctrine that the world (or reality) consists of two basic, opposed, and irreducible principles that account for all that exists. It has played an important role in the history of thought and of religion.

[...]

In religion, dualism means the belief in two supreme opposed powers or gods, or sets of divine or demonic beings, that caused the world to exist.  Iranian and Syrian-Egyptian. Iranian gnosticism is characterized by an absolute, radical dualism: light and darkness, pneuma (“spirit”) and chaotic formless matter, oppose each other from eternity. Syrian-Egyptian gnosticism is characterized by a dualism that is mitigated (as earlier defined) but also drastic: the inferior world, the chaotic darkness, begins to exist only at a special moment owing to an accident in the divine world, and this accident is usually also identified with an “audacity,” a defect in one of the “aeons,” or divine entities.

[...]

Medieval Zoroastrian treatises present radical and eschatological dualisms in their extreme forms. According to the Bundahishn (“Primordial Creation”) text, Ormazd and Ahriman have always existed. Ormazd is represented as lofty, in the light, full of omniscience and goodness, while Ahriman is represented as debased, in darkness, full of aggressiveness and ignorance. Ormazd’s omniscience allows him to conceive and to actualize the Creation and Time, because only these can offer him an arena in which to accost Ahriman and eliminate him.

[...]

The notion of yinyang, the opposed polarities of cosmic flux, may at first seem dualistic: yin is associated with passivity and femininity, yang with activity and masculinity. Yet yin and yang are not radically separate; they complement and permeate each other, emerging as two extreme aspects of the constant transformation of the Dao (the “Way” of the universe). Likewise, all of the ten thousand things (a Chinese metaphor for the world) are seen as the cumulative product of the generative forces of heaven and earth (tiandi). Like yin and yang, however, heaven and earth are complementary aspects of a continuous process of creation and not radically separate entities.

[...]

The dualism of Marcion (a 2nd-century semi-gnostic Christian heretic) was really a ditheism (a system positing two gods), though common gnostic presuppositions—such as antisomatism and anticosmism, the condemnation of the body and the material universe—were also present in his thought. For Marcion, the God of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) is an inferior and harsh creator demiurge, author of the world and of humankind, who is nonetheless completely distinct from the supreme divinity, who manifested himself in Jesus and is a stranger to this world.

Second one was worse because the key to saving his mother just ran away. It also establishes the reason for tantrums, he's also angry at his own weakness towards people.

You know, so many things  come in twos in this movie.

Even with rey, she has 2 calls to adventure etc and you see a difference in her reaction to both.

Can I just say check out bastila bae's blog today,there is a wonderful piece written I believe,by fluffyowlet regarding Kylo's mental state and people's reaction to it.
Absolutely spot on.

http://sleepyowlet.tumblr.com/post/151045951201/honeypothux-thesovereignempress

Kylo? As peeps have said in this post before me, internalises stuff. This is probably something stemming from his childhood - the son of two larger than life legends, who were never really accessible to him. You can see this pattern with a lot of celebrity offspring who can’t deal with constantly being overshadowed by their parents. They go off the rails, and sometimes they even change their name to avoid being associated with their parents at all.

Supplemental material tells us that Kylo starves himself. That his life is, by his own choice, severely ascetic - to the point of being unhealthy. That’s self-harm, right there. He punishes himself, not others. That’s a desperate attempt to control his own body in lieu of being able to control his life. He doesn’t feel superior at all, instead he is constantly wallowing in self-doubt. It’s been driven into his mind (and Snoke exploited that like whoa) that he will never be good enough - even though he’s capable of stopping a blaster bolt mid-flight.

i agree with this and thanks very much for pointing it out @motherofpearl1 but i think you could make a reasonable case that it's him being torn apart that is causing them, not so much mental illness. i think for star wars, mental illness isn't quite applicable.

I did read somewhere his room on set was nicknamed the Padded Cell!

i think the problems i have with a straight mental health diagnosis are manifold.

we have about 20 minutes of footage, and it would in no way be enough to diagnose a real person. this is a character in a story and the character serves a certain purpose. let's not forget that. it's disrespectful towards people who actually do this as a profession and who are highly trained. diagnosis gives a certain power and it's easy to jump to conclusions.

the GFFA knows no mental illness. they seem to have no mental health provision, so for anyone to argue that there is a diagnosis to be made, it would mean nothing to the characters. i know that people have given hamlet a psychoanalytical reading, and, yeah, same thing, i appreciate the intellectual exercise, i do, and it's possible, but it doesn't explain the force, it doesn't take into account destiny and all the epic mythical stuff that is being handled as part of the story.

kylo ren is not literally starving. if he was, he wouldn't be such a formidable warrior. if he was literally, in our modern medical sense, mentally ill, well, he'd need our kind of treatment and we can't administer that, so... is the story about someone not being able to access the necessary treatment? i'm exaggerating but still.

i don't know how this all works and what the correct terminology is, but to me he is struggling with a metaphorical problem of not being able to integrate himself. he is both light and dark, and he is being denied a neutral space to *be*. this is translated into multpiple facets of body language and other visuals, into all aspects of the character, and one of those aspects i think are the meltdowns.

insofar as any mental illness can be understood as metaphor (i do this and i would especially interpret bulimia as well as anorexia as desperate attempts to establish control - but of course i'm not a mental health professional and i hope i'm not stepping on anyone's toes here), his struggle can be translated back into mental illness, but i doubt this will ever give you a full picture of either mental illness or metaphor.

i think a couple of divisions can be read into him, light and darkness, human and divine, good and evil, vice and virtue, ... but i would say that the character does not pose easy answers. i think the tumblr poster is right about him internalising his anger, and this is another dichotomy to me, the difference between his inner turmoil and the calm exterior. and when these things touch, i think he runs into crises.

to me, at the moment, i'm labouring under the impression that the meltdowns are a result of being exposed to very corrupting influence of the dark side and him sticking with it possibly because there is something he feels he will gain from it. i do think that his fall came out of knowing what would be asked of him.

i know that self-harm has been brought up in connection with this character, but again i would wager that it's metaphorical. he's not a literal self-harmer.

just my opinion.

What I find interesting is just exactly what is going on inside his mind regarding the 'conflict between light and dark' - how are they going to handle this in future films?
Disney are after all a 'family' company, but so far they seem to be dealing with some fascinating and complex themes in this trilogy. On the surface TFA seems like a 'copy' of ANH, but look at it closely - with it's morally ambiguous 'villain', former stormtrooper hero, and intriguing heroine it's far more 'grown up' than ANH with it's almost fairytale 'happy ending', and 'black and white' characters.

motherofpearl1 wrote:I actually think Kylo is very strong. He's scared but he hides it -he fought bravely despite his injuries. Rewatching the film I can't get over how many times he keeps getting up despite the wounds he gets in the duel with Rey. He's a lonely, broken, mentally ill man who hides it behind a false front of arrogance and confidence when inside he's probably screaming.
He's many things. But weak,cowardly,a cry baby. Never in a million years.

@motherofpearl1

So on point! I have nothing to add <3

motherofpearl1 wrote:It's the difference between Kylo and Hux. Both of them vie for the attention of Snoke, their father substitute. But Hux, son of an imperial officer, is exactly where he wants to be, commander of the First Order - a dream come true for the b*****d son of a serving girl. Whereupon Kylo, a child of rebels,struggles to fit in.
I wonder if Ben Solo's problem was too many people wanted him to be like Han,or Luke,or Obi Wan, instead of accepting him for who he is. Which is why he may find a place with someone who just wants Ben Solo,not Luke's nephew, Han and Leia's son or Obi Wan's namesake.

@motherofpearl1

Ever since I heard Kylo say those tragic words to Han before the worst imaginable thing happened on that bloody catwalk btw father & son; "Your son is dead. He was weak and foolish, like his father", I've been haunted by the meaning behind a son's words. What happened to Ben in btw the lines of those words, to cause Ben to mentally KILL Han & Leia's son & create Kylo in the aftermath? The only theory that makes any sort of semi logical sense to me as to why is this; In the end, the real Ben Solo is like this father, Han Solo. He's all the good things about his dad (including his gorgeous looks, devilish charm & wit) & at the very same time, he's all the not so great things about his dad. Meaning, maybe what the real Ben Solo wanted to be all along was nothing more than fly around the galaxy with his dad & Uncle Chewie smuggling for an unhonest living lol. And, if that was the case, I can't see his queen mother of the FORCE & general of the resistance being all that happy about her gifted prince son choosing a life of crime rather than a noble life as the last Jedi of the universes. I can aboslutely imagine what path Ben is going to take in life in light of his unmastered "gifts" being quite a sort of many full blown arguments btw husband/father mother/wife as their beautiful child watches in the shadows. Sigh. You see where I'm going with this theory? Could be the case, right? ;D

KnightsofReyloRen wrote:


Ever since I heard Kylo say those tragic words to Han before the worst imaginable thing happened on that bloody catwalk btw father & son; "Your son is dead. He was weak and foolish, like his father", I've been haunted by the meaning behind a son's words. What happened to Ben in btw the lines of those words, to cause Ben to mentally KILL Han & Leia's son & create Kylo in the aftermath? The only theory that makes any sort of semi logical sense to me as to why is this; In the end, the real Ben Solo is like this father, Han Solo. He's all the good things about his dad (including his gorgeous looks, devilish charm & wit) & at the very same time, he's all the not so great things about his dad. Meaning, maybe what the real Ben Solo wanted to be all along was nothing more than fly around the galaxy with his dad & Uncle Chewie smuggling for an unhonest living lol. And, if that was the case, I can't see his queen mother of the FORCE & general of the resistance being all that happy about her gifted prince son choosing a life of crime rather than a noble life as the last Jedi of the universes. I can aboslutely imagine what path Ben is going to take in life in light of his unmastered "gifts" being quite a sort of many full blown arguments btw husband/father mother/wife as their beautiful child watches in the shadows. Sigh. You see where I'm going with this theory? Could be the case, right? ;D

@KnightsofReyloRen

Agreed. When you take Kylo's personal bias out of "He was weak and foolish like his father" the big takeaway is "he was...like his father". So Ben was like Han. And hopefully we get to see his Solo side, the "like his father" side. We've seen glimpses of it here:




Stares creepily, invades personal space

Solo smirk:



So, yeah, I agree that he won't be a straight laced Jedi. Ronin, rogue, definitely some anti-hero. Like his father. 

vaderito wrote:

KnightsofReyloRen wrote:


Ever since I heard Kylo say those tragic words to Han before the worst imaginable thing happened on that bloody catwalk btw father & son; "Your son is dead. He was weak and foolish, like his father", I've been haunted by the meaning behind a son's words. What happened to Ben in btw the lines of those words, to cause Ben to mentally KILL Han & Leia's son & create Kylo in the aftermath? The only theory that makes any sort of semi logical sense to me as to why is this; In the end, the real Ben Solo is like this father, Han Solo. He's all the good things about his dad (including his gorgeous looks, devilish charm & wit) & at the very same time, he's all the not so great things about his dad. Meaning, maybe what the real Ben Solo wanted to be all along was nothing more than fly around the galaxy with his dad & Uncle Chewie smuggling for an unhonest living lol. And, if that was the case, I can't see his queen mother of the FORCE & general of the resistance being all that happy about her gifted prince son choosing a life of crime rather than a noble life as the last Jedi of the universes. I can aboslutely imagine what path Ben is going to take in life in light of his unmastered "gifts" being quite a sort of many full blown arguments btw husband/father mother/wife as their beautiful child watches in the shadows. Sigh. You see where I'm going with this theory? Could be the case, right? ;D

@KnightsofReyloRen

Agreed. When you take Kylo's personal bias out of "He was weak and foolish like his father" the big takeaway is "he was...like his father". So Ben was like Han. And hopefully we get to see his Solo side, the "like his father" side. We've seen glimpses of it here:




Stares creepily, invades personal space

Solo smirk:



So, yeah, I agree that he won't be a straight laced Jedi. Ronin, rogue, definitely some anti-hero. Like his father. 

@vaderito

I am so happy to read another fan, agrees with me concerning the personality traits shared btw father/son. I'm absolutely in love with the idea of Han & Ben being so much alike, but at the same time, the obvious tragic reunion btw the Solo men, is completely heart crushing That said, your post was totally & utterly on point! And your images, perfection <3 Like Harrison Ford, Adam Driver share a lot of qualities as men & actors. Both smart, skilled, devilishly handsome & charming & funny in an offbeat cocky kinda way. I really hope in the next films, we get to see Adam's "Solo" traits shine through on redemption road ;D

@KnightsofReyloRen I find it so fascinating that Kylo combines so many physical and other traits of his ancestors:

Shmi's hair color
Padme's sexy Cindy Crawford mole
Anakin's perosnality and ROTS hair
Han's smirk pea-cocking when he likes a girl
Leia's chin and Prince(ss)ly haughtiness 
Luke's amazing helmet hair

Boy wonder.

vaderito wrote:@KnightsofReyloRen I find it so fascinating that Kylo combines so many physical and other traits of his ancestors:

Shmi's hair color
Padme's sexy Cindy Crawford mole
Anakin's perosnality and ROTS hair
Han's smirk pea-cocking when he likes a girl
Leia's chin and Prince(ss)ly haughtiness 
Luke's amazing helmet hair

Boy wonder.

@vaderito

To put it simply, Ben Skywalker Solo is a masterpiece <3 Rey is going to be a VERY lucky wife in more ways than one ;D
That said, JJ Abrams is a HERO for insisting Adam Driver was the embodiment of Ben Solo & turned that vision of his into epic moment in Star Wars history. The day Adam became Ben. The son of Han & Leia Solo. BLESS <3

One of the underlying themes/callbacks to ESB is paternity and identity,  in this case it's Han and Ben. Han admits to Leia that part of the reason why he's stayed away from her was the guilt/belief that everytime she looks at him, she sees Ben and it causes her pain (to which she responds that she doesn't want to forget Ben and regrets the actions she believes caused her to lose both of them). Also a big clue about the father-son similarities:

WGA Interview

J.J. Abrams: The thing about Star Wars is everyone who has seen these movies thinks, you know, “I am your father.” It’s one of the first things you think about. And, “There is another.” And moments like that. But when you think about those big moments and then you stop and go, oh, neither of those things were in Star Wars. You know, Star Wars didn’t say that Luke was the son of Vader. Star Wars didn’t say that Leia was the sister of Luke. You didn’t really understand what these references were. The Empire, dark times, Clone Wars. There are these things that are discussed that don’t get explained. It was Episode IV. You know, George, among the unbelievable list of brilliant things he did, dropped you into a story and respected you and said, “You will infer everything necessary to understand exactly what you need to know.” And that’s what we tried to do with this. We knew we were going to have a moment when Snoke was going to say to Ren, “Your dad’s in the picture.” Can this movie actually also hold, you know, “And Rey is this and Finn is that and this is where Poe…”? It was one of those things, and again it speaks to your restraint...Look, this is the first, this is an opportunity of a lifetime to write a movie that is the first of a series, and there is a story to be told. And it will be. But this movie, it felt like “the droid is in the hands of your father, Han Solo” was probably the one real revelatory familial piece we could get away with.



What doesn't get discussed in that quote is how it parallels the first conversation with Vader and the Emperor when they first broach Luke's existence and paternity. Which you realize later in the story thanks to subsequent information, what the true meaning is about the fall of the father, his true identity, and the revelation of paternity. In this case, it's the revelation of Han's paternity for this character (not that you couldn't figure out from LST's words some of this information). And we know ultimately about the father-son relationship playing into the Fall and Redemption. Also the line about The Awakening references The Disturbance, which is "this person is our enemy, a danger because they're out equal in Force Powers and affiliated with our opponents, but maybe they can be turned" = Rey. Again with how the father-son relationship pulls the DS back to their true self, likely that it's both Rey and Han who bring him back to his true self.

Additional thought, like his father, he'll end up forming a partnership with a certain kickass young lady

What strikes me the most is the deleted scene where Kylo boards the Falcon and goes into the cockpit. I knew there and then Ben Solo had loved his father - and presumably his mother - very much. Love and hate are so very close.
Ben loved his parents. And somewhere, somehow, they broke his heart.

motherofpearl1 wrote:What strikes me the most is the deleted scene where Kylo boards the Falcon and goes into the cockpit. I knew there and then Ben Solo had loved his father - and presumably his mother - very much. Love and hate are so very close.
Ben loved his parents. And somewhere, somehow, they broke his heart.

@motherofpearl1 @snufkin OMG loved love love the falcon scene! I wish JJ would have left it in, but I understand completely why the scene got cut in edit room floor. Even with Adam Driver's back turned completely away from the audience in most of the deleted scene, in that moment Adam's brilliant actions reveals ALL behind the mask of the fallen dark last Jedi prince. I won't go as far & say, Ben Solo isn't a lethal weapon, but I will say, to some degree Snoke is wheeling his heinous crimes. Hence his heartbreaking;  "It's too late"  confession to his father (who he does love) before he's forced to commit that horrific act against, Han. If Snoke left the choice to Ben to end Han's life or not, I'd bet the falcon on it. Ben's father, Han Solo would be alive & well to fly another day in the galaxy. Sigh. Heartbreaking father & son story, right? As amazing as the whole falcon scene is written, the writers gave Adam Driver way too much to work with too early on. In the end, TFA Ren reveal was better left to the audience to figure out. As we know now, loud & clear, some fans got Ben/Kylo from th get go & some are still scratching their heads. I will never understand their confusion over, Ben/Kylo (especially given the fact AD's is the embodiment of Ben Solo), but that's a whole other rant entirely lol. That said, @motherofpearl1 @snufkin excellent points. I agreed with you both especially in regards to how Rey/Ben/Han focus played(plays) out. All very important key elements for the last Jedi's redemption. And yes, his romantic future with his bride, Rey <3 ;D

Yes, I'm absolutely sure that scene was cut because they want us to HATE Kylo in TFA- so his 'redemption'- or anything sympathetic in his background - will be a huge surprise.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Yes, I'm absolutely sure that scene was cut because they want us to HATE Kylo in TFA- so his 'redemption'- or anything sympathetic in his background - will be a huge surprise.

@motherofpearl1

Yep. Unfortunately there was no place for Ben Solo's falcon FORCE backwards moment in his dad's cockpit in TFA. Too much too soon. Hopefully, next film(s) we get to see more of Ben & his memories of his father shared with Rey & in turn us <3