Re: Full JJ Abrams commentary on collectors edition of TFA

by guardienne Tue 01 Nov 2016, 4:57 pm

@snufkin it makes sense to me that he hides his humanity, i'm just not sure how the terrorism comes into it. and i disagree with jj that he's a coward and i next time i run into him, i will totally tell him that to his face XD

by snufkin Tue 01 Nov 2016, 5:02 pm

@guardienne -

It's probably an off the cuff reference, one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Look at ISIS propaganda with the covered faces. Or the flip side, the Zaptatistas in Chiapas. For a long time the Mexican government in power was trying to de-mask Subcommandante Marcos (who coincidentally polled during the 90s as the #1 public figure Mexican women were having sexual fantasies about) and reveal his true identity because they thought it would strip him of his power/influence.

by ZioRen Tue 01 Nov 2016, 5:43 pm

guardienne wrote:@snufkin it makes sense to me that he hides his humanity, i'm just not sure how the terrorism comes into it. and i disagree with jj that he's a coward and i next time i run into him, i will totally tell him that to his face XD

@guardienne

He's definitely a coward in a certain respect. But I'd venture to say he could still strike plenty of fear even if he walked around with his mask off and in short shorts. Being extremely powerful with the Force will do that. The thing Kylo seems most afraid of is just himself.

Speaking of, I'm glad JJ reiterated that Kylo is extremely gifted in the Force. So many fanboys dismissed Kylo and said he must just be weak because he lost to Rey. But no, he's indeed supposed to be very, very powerful. As most people with eyes could tell. JJ even went and described his mind as powerful too, in spite of everything.

by BastilaBey Tue 01 Nov 2016, 11:40 pm

Just watched the commentary and wanted to point out something that I haven't seen others note yet - @frolickingfizzgig might be particularly interested since it was the subject of one of her metas. There are several points where JJ is being very heavy-handed with the sun/son metaphor.

When the resistance team is looking at the SKB compared to the deathstar, he describes it as "a sun being sucked in, used for its power".

Of course Han actually says to Kylo later, "Snoke is using you for your power". Seems like a conscious reference for JJ.

Then in the bridge scene: "But then, the idea was that in this moment, where he’s taking the lightsaber and offering it to him as a gesture, the sun finally is drained from the sky. And you see the light go away. And now they’re in this darkness. And darkness takes over."

And then at the end, when Kylo has been defeated by Rey and Poe has succeeded on his mission: "rather than show destruction…we’d have it slowly transform into a sun and light is restored to this corner of the galaxy"

by FrolickingFizzgig Wed 02 Nov 2016, 12:03 am

BastilaBey wrote:Just watched the commentary and wanted to point out something that I haven't seen others note yet - @frolickingfizzgig might be particularly interested since it was the subject of one of her metas. There are several points where JJ is being very heavy-handed with the sun/son metaphor.

When the resistance team is looking at the SKB compared to the deathstar, he describes it as "a sun being sucked in, used for its power". Of course Han actually says to Kylo later, "Snoke is using you for your power". Seems like a conscious reference for JJ.

Then in the bridge scene: "But then, the idea was that in this moment, where he’s taking the lightsaber and offering it to him as a gesture, the sun finally is drained from the sky. And you see the light go away. And now they’re in this darkness. And darkness takes over."

And then at the end, when Kylo has been defeated by Rey and Poe has succeeded on his mission: "rather than show destruction…we’d have it slowly transform into a sun and light is restored to this corner of the galaxy"

@BastilaBey
Full JJ Abrams commentary on collectors edition of TFA - Page 4 9GvKv

That's so freaking amazing to hear from JJ! I know we already got good confirmation about this particular symbolism at Star Wars Celebration, but JJ is a whole other level. He seems to know the script really well too, which is always reassuring.

A little confused though, is this all one quote or did you write "of course Han actually says this to Kylo later": "'a sun being sucked in, used for its power'. Of course Han actually says this to Kylo later, 'Snoke is using you for your power". I'm a bit lost with what's from JJ and what isn't here because of the quotation marks.

by BastilaBey Wed 02 Nov 2016, 12:11 am

@frolickingfizzgig Ah sorry, reading it back now it does look confusing! JJ's quote is "a sun being sucked in, used for its power". I'm the one linking it to Han's actual line, not JJ.

by panki Wed 02 Nov 2016, 1:01 am

BastilaBey wrote:@frolickingfizzgig Ah sorry, reading it back now it does look confusing! JJ's quote is "a sun being sucked in, used for its power". I'm the one linking it to Han's actual line, not JJ.

@BastilaBey

That sounds like what Snoke is doing to Kylo..... Sad

by motherofpearl1 Wed 02 Nov 2016, 1:38 am

guardienne wrote:@snufkin it makes sense to me that he hides his humanity, i'm just not sure how the terrorism comes into it. and i disagree with jj that he's a coward and i next time i run into him, i will totally tell him that to his face XD

@guardienne

Exactly what I thought when I read that, although I think he was referring to some sort of'psychological' cowardice in that he was hiding from himself.

I personally thought him very brave; hiding your fear all your life is a sign of courage, to say nothing of that he fought on Starkiller with a hole in his side, and it took Rey a hell of a while to bring him down.

by Gemini Wed 02 Nov 2016, 2:11 am

@bastilabey

There's a lot more connection as well. Fizz was spot on with that and I think @Iojovi or @MeadowOfAshes? expanded on it with me and noticed something awesome with the dialogue. Maybe one could explain it? It's not my discovery, and don't want to be the first to mention it here

by guardienne Wed 02 Nov 2016, 7:31 am

motherofpearl1 wrote:
guardienne wrote:@snufkin it makes sense to me that he hides his humanity, i'm just not sure how the terrorism comes into it. and i disagree with jj that he's a coward and i next time i run into him, i will totally tell him that to his face XD

@guardienne

Exactly what I thought when I read that, although I think he was referring to some sort of'psychological' cowardice in that he was hiding from himself.

I personally thought him very brave; hiding your fear all your life is a sign of courage, to say nothing of that he fought on Starkiller with a hole in his side, and it took Rey a hell of a while to bring him down.

@motherofpearl1

haha yes.

i was going to pass the question on to @zioren to see where he's a coward. i've not been able to come up with any cowardice so far.

by Darth Dingbat Wed 02 Nov 2016, 7:36 am

guardienne wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:
guardienne wrote:@snufkin it makes sense to me that he hides his humanity, i'm just not sure how the terrorism comes into it. and i disagree with jj that he's a coward and i next time i run into him, i will totally tell him that to his face XD

@guardienne

Exactly what I thought when I read that, although I think he was referring to some sort of'psychological' cowardice in that he was hiding from himself.

I personally thought him very brave; hiding your fear all your life is a sign of courage, to say nothing of that he fought on Starkiller with a hole in his side, and it took Rey a hell of a while to bring him down.
@motherofpearl1

haha yes.

i was going to pass the question on to @zioren to see where he's a coward. i've not been able to come up with any cowardice so far.

@guardienne

I've got to agree. I suppose it might be just semantics, though - Kylo is clearly anxious and afraid that he doesn't measure up to whatever standards he's set up for himself. But isn't that insecurity rather than cowardice? He doesn't seem to have any concern for his life or physical pain at all.

by motherofpearl1 Wed 02 Nov 2016, 7:38 am

I've said this before, but he has the attitude of someone who's endured a lot of physical pain, and learned to hide it. I'm pretty sure he's suffered a lot,both mentally and physically.

by guardienne Wed 02 Nov 2016, 7:42 am

@darth dingbat i guess you could construe hiding himself to spread fear as a form of cowardice, killing people who cannot see your face? something like that.

i don't want to jump on jj here seeing as he can't defend himself and it's only a commentary track for goodness sake, but it seems like he's using the broadest strokes.

@motherofpearl1 i think he understands that pain to be necessary in a way that may be dark side stuff, may be about how it's always been. but he definitely takes that bowcaster shot like a boss.

by motherofpearl1 Wed 02 Nov 2016, 7:48 am

The way he fought on afterwards.....ouch.

by ZioRen Wed 02 Nov 2016, 7:49 am

guardienne wrote:
motherofpearl1 wrote:
guardienne wrote:@snufkin it makes sense to me that he hides his humanity, i'm just not sure how the terrorism comes into it. and i disagree with jj that he's a coward and i next time i run into him, i will totally tell him that to his face XD

@guardienne

Exactly what I thought when I read that, although I think he was referring to some sort of'psychological' cowardice in that he was hiding from himself.

I personally thought him very brave; hiding your fear all your life is a sign of courage, to say nothing of that he fought on Starkiller with a hole in his side, and it took Rey a hell of a while to bring him down.
@motherofpearl1

haha yes.

i was going to pass the question on to @zioren to see where he's a coward. i've not been able to come up with any cowardice so far.

@guardienne

Kylo's insecurity seems to be a big motivating factor to him doing what he does. Becoming a murderer and falling to the dark side and throwing yourself into some dark "cause" partially to deal with one's own insecurity feels pretty cowardly to me. Hiding your fear to the point where it festers into something like that isn't courageous at all to me either.

In the "afraid of danger" sense, Kylo isn't a coward. He is in the coming to terms with himself sense, though. And people suffer for it.

I still believe Kylo is brave in other ways and we'll see more of it going forward, though. He has that steel blood, after all! I sound like I'm totally trashing the character but these are the elements that make him interesting to me.

by motherofpearl1 Wed 02 Nov 2016, 8:12 am

I don't know if anyone here has ever read 'The Chronicles of Narnia' but Kylo reminds me a lot of Prince Rilian. He was a 'lost prince' seduced to the dark - in his case literally seduced, by a beautiful witch. He wore a black armoured costume that covered him from head to foot. And he was ultimately saved by the child protagonists who had to make a fateful choice at the end.

by guardienne Wed 02 Nov 2016, 9:08 am

@zioren didn't think you'd been bashing the character but i couldn't figure it out Wink

you are right he's not brave in the being himself stakes.

by vaderito Wed 02 Nov 2016, 9:11 am

BastilaBey wrote:Just watched the commentary and wanted to point out something that I haven't seen others note yet - @frolickingfizzgig might be particularly interested since it was the subject of one of her metas. There are several points where JJ is being very heavy-handed with the sun/son metaphor.

When the resistance team is looking at the SKB compared to the deathstar, he describes it as "a sun being sucked in, used for its power".

Of course Han actually says to Kylo later, "Snoke is using you for your power" [BastilaBey comment] Seems like a conscious reference for JJ.

Then in the bridge scene: "But then, the idea was that in this moment, where he’s taking the lightsaber and offering it to him as a gesture, the sun finally is drained from the sky. And you see the light go away. And now they’re in this darkness. And darkness takes over."

And then at the end, when Kylo has been defeated by Rey and Poe has succeeded on his mission: "rather than show destruction…we’d have it slowly transform into a sun and light is restored to this corner of the galaxy"

@BastilaBey

March 26 206

http://frolickingfizzgig.tumblr.com/post/141751036445/rebirth-of-the-son-the-art-of-kylo-rens

4 months ago:

Vindication. Twisted Evil

by motherofpearl1 Wed 02 Nov 2016, 10:06 am

guardienne wrote:@zioren didn't think you'd been bashing the character but i couldn't figure it out you are right he's not brave in the being himself stakes.

@guardienne

Largely I think because he hates himself.

by snufkin Wed 02 Nov 2016, 10:30 am

guardienne wrote:@darth dingbat i guess you could construe hiding himself to spread fear as a form of cowardice, killing people who cannot see your face? something like that.

i don't want to jump on jj here seeing as he can't defend himself and it's only a commentary track for goodness sake, but it seems like he's using the broadest strokes.

@motherofpearl1 i think he understands that pain to be necessary in a way that may be dark side stuff, may be about how it's always been. but he definitely takes that bowcaster shot like a boss.

If there are Wizard of Oz parallels to be had, he's a coward like how this guy is (who also gets his a** kicked by a girl who's also fed up with his bluster)

The taking pain part is masochistic, there's an element of "I deserve this." It's self directed.

by Xylo Ren Wed 02 Nov 2016, 2:30 pm

Full JJ Abrams commentary on collectors edition of TFA - Page 4 Tumblr_ofwz50GrOR1v2ihz0o3_540

I want that cover picture of the snow fight Love

by SanghaRen Wed 02 Nov 2016, 3:10 pm

I think cowardice is a subjective term. What one will see as cowardice, the other might not see this way. Striking back in a conflict for instance. Some will call you a coward if you walk away from it, some will say that it takes courage to walk away. I would not describe Kylo as a coward, but I can see how others would describe him this way because he's not always owning his actions. Killing Han is imo a not-owning-action moment in a "oh well, I am just going to let the darkness fill me rather than go back with Dad and try to mend what can still be mended" way. It can both be seen as cowardice and despair actually. I tend to lean toward the latter but the first one fits too. It does not bother me that JJ calls him a coward.

Kylo representing youngsters being brainwashed into terrorism is a story that appeals to me. Being so convinced that you are right, that you do awful things to realize later that it was a mistake is quite a story. Very sad and heart-wrenching. I really like these stories - in fiction more than real life obviously.

Edit: Just saw your post, @ZioRen. I think we see it the same way Smile

by panki Wed 02 Nov 2016, 3:34 pm

I see Kylo as the tinman with no heart... the novel mentions that he has no desire for the accoutrements desired by other sentient beings etc.....he wants to immerse himself in darkness and not care for anything.....and yet, the tinman is probably the most soft hearted of the group. Finn is probably the cowardly lion- not because he is a coward per se, but his fear of the FO and his need to run as far away from them as possible (which he overcomes in SKB)...Poe is the scarecrow because he is hot headed and impulsive, and gets himself into dangerous situations because of it.

by motherofpearl1 Thu 03 Nov 2016, 1:24 am

I get the impression Kylo has a lot of self hatred inside him; he refers to his past self as weak and foolish. This of course could be due to
Snoke's teachings but I also think it's because of something lacking in his childhood. At some point he's seen himself as a failure. The son of legends, the last Skywalker, named after a great hero- he had a lot to live up to. Someone or something caused him to lose his self respect. Now he just wants to feel nothing - yet reaches out to a girl he doesn't know in a last desperate attempt to fill the void.

He views love with contempt yet he craves it.

by guardienne Thu 03 Nov 2016, 2:56 pm

interesting discussion of cowardice and wizard of oz parallels!

there's an exciting meta that allowed me to read the character in a different way:

But I also like a reading of a Kylo Ren who is in control. Who makes a choice to go to the Dark Side because Snoke legitimately gives him something that Han Solo could not, something he really needed. This reading still allows for the possibility that he was traumatized, that he experienced childhood abuse. I don’t think he would have gone Dark if he’d grown up feeling safe and happy, if he wasn’t already suffering in some deep, intractable way. I just like to think that maybe he was not as heavily coerced by Snoke as we think. I like to think, at some point along the way, he looked at two kinds of Devil and chose the one that suited him. The one that would allow him the best shot at survival.

I like this because it allows for the possibility of a Kylo Ren who is defending himself. Maybe his friends, too.

This would be a Kylo Ren who is defending against everyone. This is a Kylo Ren who does what he feels in his heart to be true and right - even when it costs him his family, his teacher, everything and everyone he loved. He chooses a path that wasn’t the one laid out for him. He is a survivor, not a victim. He is so f****ing brave.

Not only does Ren explore this difficult path, but he doesn’t ever really close his mind to the possibility that he chose wrongly. It takes a great deal of bravery to question yourself every day, every moment, and each time arrive at the same conclusion about what is right.

http://millicentthecat.tumblr.com/post/139353411341/kylo-ren-valiant-defender

perhaps this is not the thread to discuss this, but have a look anyway.

but anyway, what do you guys make of the number of times we would have been allowed to see adam's face?? it's mind-boggling how much thought must have gone into this and how much the mask was supposed to come off, no? i'm thinking if it had come off after 'confessions', and the scene would have stayed where it is now, would we have viewed the meeting in the forest in a different way? knowing his face underneath the mask?

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