Reylo in TLJ & Literary Analysis

Me. Darcy, Heathcliff, and I know it’s not literary, but the character parallels with Elsa continue:

“The past is in the past. Let it go!”

“Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.”

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Me. Darcy, Heathcliff, and I know it’s not literary, but the character parallels with Elsa continue:

“The past is in the past. Let it go!”

“Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.”

@Cowgirlsamurai

That's a really good one as well. Having that rawpowah and such. I'm expecting him to go into hiding, maybe in an ice castle somewhere? Maybe that or Mustafar.

I have this huge fascination with Japanese jidaigeki and Chinese wuxia since childhood (although I am neither Japanese nor Chinese). For Japanese, I watched a lot of Japanese historical period dramas. For Chinese, I read Jin Yong books (classic chinese wuxia stories) and its TV series adaptations, which stories set in fictional ancient martial arts universe.

I find there is a fundamental difference between the western and eastern in fictional adventure stories. Western adventures is more about trying to reach a destination, like getting something to someone, like they know their goal already. While eastern adventures is always about soul-searching, the hero is trying to find a place, trying to find out who he/she is, without knowing what the goal of the journey is. Star Wars is more of that 'eastern adventure' type. It contains a load of the ancient eastern elements. The master and apprentice's relationships. Jedi is fancy version of samurai. Force is fancy version of 'qi' (inner strength). The family conflicts. The romance. The adventure. The philosophies. I like the fact that Star Wars is basically a family drama stylized with futuristic spaceship battles.

A lot of Chinese wuxia stories focuses on family problems and relationships (packed with a lot of kungfu fight scenes, ofc). In the Japanese warring states period, many families became enemies/opposite sides due to the fact they used their family members as political tools, a father would marry their daughter to the enemy's family/territory to form an alliance, but the alliance could break any time. The saddest and tragic moment for any jidaigeki drama would come from this historical fact.

George Lucas never said anything about being inspired by Chinese literature, but I can miraculously find so many similarities between Star Wars and the classic Chinese stories.

1. Luke Skywalker, being the good son and redemption of his evil father, Anakin.
Yang Guo, being the good son and redemption of his evil father, Yang Kang. (Return of Condor Heroes)
2. Yoda first met with Luke similar to Hong Qigong (North Beggar)'s first met with Yang Guo. Yoda was happily looking for food, the North Beggar was looking for food too. (Legend of Condor Heroes)
3. The fall of the Old Republic = The fall of Song Dynasty. The rise of the Galactic Empire = The rise of Yuan dynasty (established by the Mongols).
4. Luke having a crush on Leia not knowing she's his twin sister is similar to Demi Gods & Semi Devils' Duan Yu meeting his half sister and having a crush on her not knowing his father have a child with a woman other than his mother.
5. For this one, picture is enough.


TO MY REYLO POINT.

Which JY wuxia power couple similar to Reylo? There were several "enemies becomes lovers" couples in wuxia stories. You can see lovers on opposite sides is very intriguing for the eastern culture.

1. Zhang Cuishan and Yin Susu in "Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber"
Cuishan is a guy from the righteous sect and Susu is a girl from the evil sect, their families, the whole martial arts world were against their marriage. Ten years later, after they had a son together, Cuishan found out Susu was the killer of his martial art brother (before they fell in love), complicated with another problem they were facing and being pressed with, Cuishan killed himself in front of their own families and the whole martial arts society as witnesses, and so did Susu.

2. Zhang Wuji and Zhao Min in "Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber"
Wuji is the son of Cuishan and Susu. He fell in love with Zhao Min, the Mongolian princess, descendant of Genghis Khan in the middle of the war between China and Mongolia. As the novel POV, the Mongolian described as the villains, the evil side. Wuji was leading the sect which his late mother belong to, and his people hate the Mongolian princess as she has caused many losses for the sect. In the end, Zhao Min decided to throw away her Mongolian status and severe ties with her family to be together with Wuji. Wuji lead his sect to victory against Mongolia, but then after he handed over leadership, he disappeared together with Zhao Min to secluded life, never to be found by the martial arts society again.

3. Linghu Chong and Ren Yingying in "State of Divinity"
Linghu Chong is the eldest apprentice of a righteous sect and Ren Yingying is the princess of an evil sect. They are both respected leaders of both sides. But what I like from this story is the grey area between righteous sect and evil sect. There are evil people in the so-called righteous sects but there are also good-natured people in the evil sect. The twist is that the true villain of this story is a leader of a righteous sect, Linghu Chong's very own master, who was disguised as a wise and gentleman in the first half of the story. There was not much opposition against the couple's relationship due to the grey area of virtue and evil in the story. But in the end, the couple decided to retire from the martial arts world and lead a secluded life.

4. Yang Kang and Mu Nianci in "Legend of Condor Heroes"
In this story, the Jin rules China, but the Hans were rebelling and hate the Jins. Yang Kang is the adopted son of the Jin dynasty's royal family without knowing his true birth origin. He was the birth son of a Han warrior whom wife was kidnapped by the Jin prince. His adopted father made an attempt to kill his birth father when he was a baby but he managed to escape, kidnapped his mother and made her his wife. 18 years later, Yang Kang's birth father adopted a daughter, Mu Nianci. In a twist of fate and adventure, the family meet again, and Yang Kang is not able to accept the fact that the Jin prince is not his real father. His mother decided to escape with his birth father, but he thinks his mother has gone mad. It became a tragedy when they were surrounded by the Jin soldiers and Yang Kang's birth father and mother decided for double suicide. It was a traumatic experience for him but he decided to stick with the Jins because he feel he was born a Jin. He fell in love with his birth father's adopted daughter, Mu Nianci. But Mu Nianci is a Han girl and she hates the Jins. She always plead Yang Kang to turn to her side and fight for the Hans because he is of Han origins. But Yang Kang's mind is that he is a Jin, he don't want to betray his adopted father who has raised him like his own child and he is a proud Jin. Yang Kang proposed to Mu Nianci and he wants her to be his royal wife in the palace. Mu Nianci rejected the proposal. They are involved in a romance while standing on opposite sides until the end and neither want to let go what they believe in. Their romantic relationship was filled with lies and betrayal. In the end, Yang Kang was killed by the main character, but Mu Nianci was pregnant with his child.

Lessons learned from the examples of wuxia "enemies become lovers" couples. What are the possibilities for Reylo's relationship development?

1. How did those couples fell in love and came to understand each other?
First case, Cuishan and Susu were stranded in an island together with an old hermit for ten years, they pretty much had no choice but to fall in love, lol.
Second case, Wuji and Zhao Min went through an adventure together to accomplish a certain mission that does not cause any loss for both sides and bring a little benefit to both sides.
Third case, it was really slow burn for Linghu Chong and Ren Yingying because Chong was still in love with another girl, the first time he met Yingying. But the definite event that showed Yingying's huge affection for Chong and a way to redeem herself, was when she carried heavily injured Chong to Shaolin and asked the monks to save and heal his injury, but in turn, the monks asked Yingying to be confined in the temple to pay for her sins of killing so many innocent people in her life. She sacrificed her freedom for Chong's life. That's when Chong finally noticed her unconditional love for him.
Fourth case, Yang Kang and Mu Nianci fell in love but not even once they tried to understand each other, extremely stubborn lovers.

2. How were the evil ones of the twos, redeemed?
First case, they were in conflict once they returned to the martial arts world ten years later and immediately committed suicide.
Second case, just because the Mongolian portrayed as the evil side in this story, it is really unfair to say Zhao Min has to be redeemed. She is just fighting for her country, protecting her family, proud of her Genghis Khan bloodline. I really hated it when Zhao Min was the one who severed ties with her family and country first, but then hated by Wuji's people. I thought it was not fair for her to be seen as the evil one. But I guess, this is her redemption. I am glad that Wuji decided to lead a secluded life with her, to be fair with her, leaving back his family and friends, at the end.
Third case, Yingying was confined in a Shaolin temple for months.
Fourth case, Yang Kang was killed and he was never redeemed. But then again I do not see why he has to be redeemed since he is just standing on the side he believe in. Though Yang Kang and the Jins are portrayed evil in the book.

3. How did they end?
So "enemies becomes lovers" in wuxia stories either ends double suicidal, one of them killed, or retire from the world and lead a secluded life together.

Among the above couples, I find Reylo resembles the 4th one the most, Yang Kang and Mu Nianci's relationship the most. Yang Kang's complicated family background and how Mu Nianci is the adopted daughter of his birth father. As Han Solo is the father figure for Rey. Mu Nianci stand on the opposite side, ironically, together with Yang Kang's birth family and relatives. Just as Rey stand together with Han, Leia, Luke on the opposite side. Well, this wuxia couple does not end well, BUT they are not the main couple/characters of the story, and they don't have Force bond that can help them to understand each other's mind, feelings, hearts, desire, wish, etc. So, Reylo will definitely get a different ending!

At this point, I think Reylo have not deeply fallen in love nor understanding each other. Based on the Chinese wuxia examples, Reylo needs a catalyst, a reason for them to fall in love and understand each other. Reylo can go for an adventure together for a certain Force-related mission that will not cause any loss for both FO and Resistance. Or, Kylo have to sacrifice something (not his life, pls) to prove his love for Rey and that he is worthy, maybe something like his Force-healing power to save Rey's life, in exchange of half his energy? Or like, Rey is badly injured and Kylo carried her all the way to a sacred place to ask certain powerful people to save Rey's life, in exchange Kylo will be confined by these people for redemption and maybe released a few years later? lol.

For a happy ending, I really can't see another happy ending other than Reylo lead a secluded life in the end. They have to meet in the middle. Ben will throw away power and FO, but he will not be able to join the Resistance or mingle with Rey's friends. To be fair, Rey have to leave the Resistance too.

As for Japan, I noticed some of the Japanese comments after watching TLJ was "Kylo Ren is sooo Vegeta!" LOL, if you know Dragon Ball, the animation series, Vegeta is one of the fans' most favorite characters. He was a prince of his home planet which was destroyed, a true jackass, extremely violent, terrible temper, think himself as someone on top of the world, and took a long time before he was finally redeemed. He started as a villain and the author meant to kill him earlier but the readers gave overwhelming responses about how much they love the character, so although the author didn't like Vegeta that much, the editors pushed him to keep Vegeta alive, lol. Even after he banged Bulma and have a child with her, he did not care at all about them, another character had to rescue Bulma and his child, while he didn't do anything. Later when his child was older, 8 years old, that was when he finally became the true ally of the main character, Son Goku, and sacrificed his life to save everyone on earth, and his last words to his child was "Take care of your mother" He died, but since this is Dragon Ball, he was brought back to life with dragon balls, as easy as that, lol. Vegeta started to have inner conflicts since he has a child. The more he fight together with the Earthlings, the more he feel belong to Earth... as much as he hate it, he feel comfortable being around his family and the other fighters, but he always denied it and always say "I only fight for myself, I have no intention to be your ally" and kept acting like a jerk. Later on at the end of the original series he admitted all those things. And in the latest Dragon Ball episodes, he would violently shred the enemy to pieces if he touch one finger on Bulma, his wife, lol

Another interesting thing to notice, most Japanese comment "Whaaaat??? Rey and Kylo have the same situation (force bond) as 'Kimi no na wa' (Your Name)!?" "Your Name" is a very successful Japanese animation movie last year. Coincidentally, JJ Abrams just picked up the Hollywood live action version of "Your Name." At least, that makes me confident JJ will definitely include another FB scene in IX.

There is one thing I have not figured out. I have never find any evil-turn-good character who have killed their parent and then get redeemed alive. They have killed many innocent people, yes, but I haven't find any who killed their parent for no reason. How to justify Kylo's act of killing his own father? Has there been any meta about this? Other than as a catalyst for him to return to the Light side? Because after TLJ, now we know that's not true.

I LOVE your entire post @shii405. Being an anime and manga fan myself, Vegeta and Kimi no na wa came to my mind while I was watching TLJ.
There are another similarities between Kylo, Rey and other anime characters. The most prominent one imo is Lelouch, the main character of Code Geass. He begins like a normal student, but is given the power of the geass (which allows him to order any thing to the fellow who looks at his eyes) and he builds the Zero persona, a masked man who fights versus Britannia Empire, in part because of vendetta). He ends killing his father, mother, half brother and half sister ans becoming the emperor himself, so.... yeah, very Kyloish. The bad thing is that he suppossedlly dies by the end, BUT some fans theorized that he had faked his death to run away with C.C. and he is definitelly coming back for a third season.

Another anime look ailke with Kylo is Sasuke, one of the main characters of Naruto. At the begining he is a comrade of Naruto, Sakura and the Konoha village, but he desires to kill his brother Itachi because he assassinated all their family and flied. Because of that and to gain power, Sasuke betrays Naruto and everybody (even tries to kill him some times) and runs away with the main villain, Orochimaru. By the end, Sasuke kills Itachi (which only do things even worse) and is determined to become the ruler of all and brings order to the corrupted ninja world. Fortunatelly, Naruto stops him and, after a period of exile, Sasuke marries Sakura and they have a daughter.
There are more examples (Riku from Kingdom Hearts, Delita from Final Fantasy Tactics in japanese games), but I think these two are the most prominent ones. As shii said, the japanese, korean and chinese narrations are full of this type of characters who have to grow up, search for his soul amd who serve as the good main character counterpart.

Sorry for my grammar

@shii405

Another interesting thing to notice, most Japanese comment "Whaaaat??? Rey and Kylo have the same situation (force bond) as 'Kimi no na wa' (Your Name)!?" "Your Name" is a very successful Japanese animation movie last year. Coincidentally, JJ Abrams just picked up the Hollywood live action version of "Your Name." At least, that makes me confident JJ will definitely include another FB scene in IX.

Thanks for sharing this! And I totally forgot I bought Your Name dvd for my son as a Christmas present - its hidden somewhere in the house. I HAVE to find it...seriously !

rey09 wrote:guyss he must continue the skywalker line. No way he is dying.

@rey09

After watching the movie, I didn't think about this very important point: if Leia dies in Epìsode IX, Ben is the last Skywalker alive, then what? are they all going to die and that's all???? It would be a terrible ending for Skywalker's saga.

lauvamp wrote:

rey09 wrote:guyss he must continue the skywalker line. No way he is dying.

@rey09

After watching the movie, I didn't think about this very important point: if Leia dies in Epìsode IX, Ben is the last Skywalker alive, then what? are they all going to die and that's all???? It would be a terrible ending for Skywalker's saga.

@lauvamp Exactly. It is far too dark. KK also said SW isn't apocalyptic. SW is a fairy tale, not GOT. He will continue the line. I think after him their kids just won't be snobby and entitled lol.

did anyone notice how much fire there was in the movie? perhaps it's obvious, it just struck me that kylo seems to be often set against flames of some kind, whilst rey gets all the watery images. and the blue sabre as well.

guardienne wrote:did anyone notice how much fire there was in the movie? perhaps it's obvious, it just struck me that kylo seems to be often set against flames of some kind, whilst rey gets all the watery images. and the blue sabre as well.

@guardienne

I also noticed that Rey is a gray outfit when she goes to Kylo. I recall once telling you that I could dig Kylo in gray.

@sacrebleu yes yes i remember that i don't dislike his outfit, well you know how i feel about the cape, but i found the other one hotter. innit.

guardienne wrote:@sacrebleu yes yes i remember that i don't dislike his outfit, well you know how i feel about the cape, but i found the other one hotter. innit.

@guardienne

The cape turned out much better than I anticipated. It looked very heavy in the still photos, but blew very nicely in the wind on Crait. And I absolutely loved the moment he threw it off like Anakin and Obi-Wan. Technology has advanced in the Star Wars galaxy, but capes are timeless.

Sorry for bumping this thread again, but I just remembered another narrative similarity, also with a well-known Disney movie: The Lion King. It has more to do with Simba (the prince-then-king) and Nala story. As you know, Simba runs away after Mufasa´s death because Scar makes him feel guilty about that (okay, he believes he is the cause of his father demise). Years pass and Nala and him meet each other again, now as grown ups. They fall in love and it seems that they get together. BUT Simba is still trapped by his past and he can´t let it go, so he and Nala argue and she leaves him. Very much like TLJ ending (with obvious differences):



It is not until Simba finds himself and understands the true meaning of accepting your past and faults that he can return to the Prideland and save everybody. It is not Nala who brings him back, but himself (with a little help from Rafiki (Luke?) and Mufasa´s ghost (Han? Leia? Luke again?) and, yes, obviously the lecture from Nala. The good thing is.... The Lion King remake (by Disney) releases in 2019, too

Sacrebleu wrote:

guardienne wrote:did anyone notice how much fire there was in the movie? perhaps it's obvious, it just struck me that kylo seems to be often set against flames of some kind, whilst rey gets all the watery images. and the blue sabre as well.

@guardienne

I also noticed that Rey is a gray outfit when she goes to Kylo. I recall once telling you that I could dig Kylo in gray.

@Sacrebleu

Yes I noticed it. I remember that @spacebaby45678 had written several wonderful posts about the meaning of fire/water associated to Kylo and Rey.

I finally organized my thoughts about the movie, and one thing that really got my attention was the Christian symbolism. It made me think of certain excerpts from the Bible and even made me read them again after years (my family is Catholic, I'm not):

The hand-sex scene and the book of Genesis:
Kylo and Rey finding balance (Light and Dark touching) are Adam and Eve eating from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil". From the beginning, you get a sense of "forbidden fruit" all over their Force Skype sessions, complete with Rey calling him a "snake". The balance they achieve in that moment and the epiphany they both take out of the experience is similar to the knowledge of the tree, and they're punished by Luke (SW's version of "God") instantly.

The Force Skype sessions and the Song of Songs
A lot of their interactions via Force Bond reminded me of this particular book. The inherent sensuality, the banter between two lovers who are desperate to understand/find each other, and the transcendence bordering the erotic in their interactions are very similar to what I saw between Rey and Kylo.

Luke as a prophet:
Not only he physically resembles our visual interpretation of Old Testament God, but he has a lot of characteristics from several prophets (Jesus, John the Baptist, Isaiah etc.) I think @nonesuch wrote a meta a few months ago and she mentioned the parallels between Luke and Noah as well. When Luke gets his Heavenly ascension, the burden of knowledge is passed to Rey, the next "prophet".

Crait and the book of Exodus:
I thought Luke would be the Moses-like figure to help them escape, but turns out that Rey is the one to open the path for the Resistance to escape (floating boulders vs. parting the sea). She's also the one with the scriptures to create a new order (the Ten Commandments). And Crait is also red, which works as a visual metaphor for the Red Sea.

ReyloSpanishFan wrote:Sorry for bumping this thread again, but I just remembered another narrative similarity, also with a well-known Disney movie: The Lion King. It has more to do with Simba (the prince-then-king) and Nala story. As you know, Simba runs away after Mufasa´s death because Scar makes him feel guilty about that (okay, he believes he is the cause of his father demise). Years pass and Nala and him meet each other again, now as grown ups. They fall in love and it seems that they get together. BUT Simba is still trapped by his past and he can´t let it go, so he and Nala argue and she leaves him. Very much like TLJ ending (with obvious differences):



It is not until Simba finds himself and understands the true meaning of accepting your past and faults that he can return to the Prideland and save everybody. It is not Nala who brings him back, but himself (with a little help from Rafiki (Luke?) and Mufasa´s ghost (Han? Leia? Luke again?) and, yes, obviously the lecture from Nala. The good thing is.... The Lion King remake (by Disney) releases in 2019, too

@ReyloSpanishFan

That's another reason the Renperor ending was suited for TLJ because Kylo has to want to do it himself and it's the catalyst for him to want to change. Realistically Ben wouldn't just turn his back on everything he worked to achieve just because a girl bats her eyelashes at him and says please. It would be hokey and not in his character at this point of the story.

At the middle chapters end he has gotten everything he thought he wanted; he took out Snoke after knowing all these years Snoke didn't really care about him and would kill him the second he wasn't useful anymore; he's gotten power and runs the most influential organization in the galaxy; he got to slap Hux around like a red headed stepchild; and he got to give Luke a piece of his mind and now his uncle is dead. Despite that he is just as miserable as ever, if not more so. After all that he tries to connect with Rey because now he knows being with her is what brings him real happiness, and she blows him off. When he thinks he can't get any lower he sinks down even further. He looks like a pathetic broken mess after "rising" to be top dog.

This isnt how you set up the next big baddie of the trilogy. Truth is a lot didn't want the Renperor ending but it's the ending Reylo needed. He realizes now everything he thought was right is wrong and that will be what gives him the internal drive to change because now he sees that he doesn't have anything without Rey.

Piper Maru wrote:I finally organized my thoughts about the movie, and one thing that really got my attention was the Christian symbolism. It made me think of certain excerpts from the Bible and even made me read them again after years (my family is Catholic, I'm not):

The hand-sex scene and the book of Genesis:
Kylo and Rey finding balance (Light and Dark touching) are Adam and Eve eating from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil". From the beginning, you get a sense of "forbidden fruit" all over their Force Skype sessions, complete with Rey calling him a "snake". The balance they achieve in that moment and the epiphany they both take out of the experience is similar to the knowledge of the tree, and they're punished by Luke (SW's version of "God") instantly.

The Force Skype sessions and the Song of Songs
A lot of their interactions via Force Bond reminded me of this particular book. The inherent sensuality, the banter between two lovers who are desperate to understand/find each other, and the transcendence bordering the erotic in their interactions are very similar to what I saw between Rey and Kylo.

Luke as a prophet:
Not only he physically resembles our visual interpretation of Old Testament God, but he has a lot of characteristics from several prophets (Jesus, John the Baptist, Isaiah etc.) I think @nonesuch wrote a meta a few months ago and she mentioned the parallels between Luke and Noah as well. When Luke gets his Heavenly ascension, the burden of knowledge is passed to Rey, the next "prophet".

Crait and the book of Exodus:
I thought Luke would be the Moses-like figure to help them escape, but turns out that Rey is the one to open the path for the Resistance to escape (floating boulders vs. parting the sea). She's also the one with the scriptures to create a new order (the Ten Commandments). And Crait is also red, which works as a visual metaphor for the Red Sea.

@Piper Maru

This is fantastic! I actually understand references. Shii's manga post is fantastic too but I've no knowledge of manga so I can't follow like this. But the references are so spot on especially Crait/Red Sea, Rey/Moses parting the sea/floating boulders, 10 Commandments. I haven't heard that one before but you are totally right.

LadyHa wrote:

rey09 wrote:

Not a fan of Wuthering Heights at all, tried watching the movie and I was so irked by the two of them. They are disastrous but I def. see that dynamic with rey and kylo. I just don't think it will end tragically for them.

@rey09

IMO, there is no good Wuthering Heights film - many have tried, but the structure of the book doesn't translate to film very well, particularly the second half.  The films I have seen change the storyline to make it more of a relatable romance, but the book is more complicated than that.

Just had to follow up here, because I remembered I am quite partial to the somewhat over-the-top 1970 Wuthering Heights starring Timothy Dalton.  It mangles the original storyline and time period, is unabashedly sexual, and has that lovely 1960s film stock color. I just looked it up and laughed about this forest scene that was invented for the film.  Cathy is wandering in a forest and encounters Heathcliff, who gets a little predatory with her.  Here's some screen shots. Look familiar?   Here's the link if you want to watch the full scene:  (link).

@Piper Maru - This is excellent! And my background is more Protestant and there are so many themes from that side of Christianity I kept noticing. Such as Luke's rejection of the Jedi (the PT era was that fictional universe's Holy Roman Empire) makes me think of Martin Luther kicking off the Protestant Reformation, "the Force doesn't belong to anybody" is the "every man a minister" principle,  and Leia's statement at the end (and <3 how both films, she gets the last word) "we have all we need" is about starting a new congregation.

Given how they just blew up the Chosen One narrative which fueled Reywalker and that's being deconstructed/criticized with how Luke's hubris made things worse for Ben, that means Rey is a different type of character altogether. Which for a young woman who's an orphan, she's like Dorothy Gale in the Oz books, Jane Eyre (c'mon Ben is totally Rochester in that scenario), or Anne of Green Gables. All of these young orphans go through trials and achieve success/happiness through their own actions and choices. Which is sort of the point of Forces of Destiny.

Also fair to say that Touching Hands and visions of the future together as coded sex is like Lyra and Will touching each other's Daemons in The His Dark Materials trilogy.

Not specifically ST related (unless somebody can make an argument) but good lord did this make me laugh because not only is Lawrence Selden actual garbage who's responsible for Lily Bart's downfall. But 100% agree he's the avatar of a certain type of over-earnest "I'm one of the good ones" type of males you find in various progressive/educated spaces. Come to think of it, some of the fanboys who argue they're not one of the toxic old school types in their earnest arguments against Rey having anything to do with a certain character (and who typically are Luke fanboys) do have a touch of Seldin about them in presuming to police what female fans should/shouldn't connect to in the films and characters.

Men Like Him

In 2018, let us beware of Lawrence Selden, one of the great intellectual bachelors of American literature, the unmarried man whose friendship is the catalyst for the beautiful and unattached Lily Bart’s tragic fall in Edith Wharton’s 1905 The House of Mirth. Let us beware of men like him, the men who feel no social constraint, the authentic, the earnest, the men who imagine themselves as existing outside of society. Let us beware because they are, in fact, fake-a** fakers, and we have to get better at spotting them. Lily Bart is attracted to Lawrence Selden, an unsuitable match, but the true tragedy is that she believes his bullshit, to great cost.

The costs of believing men with great power who use it in vulgar, obvious, and dangerous ways—are pretty clear. Less clear, though are the effects of the Lawrence Seldens: the bookish men, the leftist men, the “radical” thinkers, the “let us live lives of desire” kind of men. The men whose bachelor libraries we dream of living amidst. The men to whom the costs paid by women trying to survive inside patriarchy are invisible.

Also for all the talk about Jane Austen and Pride and Prejudice? I honestly read more Edith Wharton in school. So the first experience I had reading one of Austen's novels, my first thought was that somebody was going to end up sledding into a tree like Ethan Frome or dead like Lily Bart. Like I still have a hard time believing in happy endings from classic literature because Wharton was really my first and biggest 19th century writer.

I read House of Mirth years ago in high school, didn't like it really but Ethan Frome...that ending was devastating. Age of Innocence as well, the ending is so sad. Those stories left such strong impressions to this day, esp Ethan Frome.

@rey09 Those were the two I had to read in high school and yes, both endings devastated me. So later on in my early 20s when I read Middlemarch and Pride and Prejudice for leisure reading, both times I kept expecting the heroines to end up sledding into a tree or having a situation they're trapped in like Newland Archer.  Which in some ways, the ST reminding me of all the 19th-century literature I've read, early on I kept joking that I thought this would end up like Edith Wharton in Space.

Ha so actually speaking of hands and gloves, anybody else think of the Scorcese adaption of Age of Innocence during the hut scene?

snufkin wrote:@rey09 Those were the two I had to read in high school and yes, both endings devastated me. So later on in my early 20s when I read Middlemarch and Pride and Prejudice for leisure reading, both times I kept expecting the heroines to end up sledding into a tree or having a situation they're trapped in like Newland Archer.  Which in some ways, the ST reminding me of all the 19th-century literature I've read, early on I kept joking that I thought this would end up like Edith Wharton in Space.

Ha so actually speaking of hands and gloves, anybody else think of the Scorcese adaption of Age of Innocence during the hut scene?

@snufkin

O wow!!! So now we know what would have happened had Luke not rudely interrupted them! Damn you Luke!! XD
Have you ever read A Room with a View? it reminded me of reylo so much before TLJ and I def. still see it.
I like the tone of Wharton, don't want her ending tho for reylo haha. I think somewhere in between Austen and Wharton would be good- happy but still gives you those pangs...

@rey09 I've only seen the Merchant-Ivory adaption, which was a very different type of role for DDL. Ha, yes if Luke hadn't busted in on his nephew at that moment, who knows what might've happened (God no wonder Ben hates him. First for waking up to find him contemplating murder and then for breaking up his tête-à-tête with Rey). Though there might be a "is there anywhere we can be happy behind the backs of the people who trust us?" type conversation in IX.

I loved A Room with a View. Now I’m trying to fit Reylo with it....