Official TROS Spoilers discussion

special_cases wrote:HE'S NEVER KISSED A JEDI?



What, Poe is a Kisses Collector in that script? Who thinks like that after kissing someone? Are there any other Jedi around whom Poe could have kissed?

@special_cases

...Luke?

Was there a forbidden infatuation going on? What's the ship name, Loe or Puke?

Okay, but this is the funniest s*** ever. From Trevorrow's script:



He lost the star wars

Fake?

That can't be real. I just can't believe he would really make that lame joke (right before a suicide scene cause that's totally on brand for SW) and then actually underline it just in case people missed it lmao

It's real. I'm serious.

It's not supposed to be a joke

That line sounds so bad, therefore I believe it's real

well, it's the same writer who put the note that Poe!? and Rey were the most important characters second only to Luke. There's so much wrong with this note.

But what really bums me is how the heck he watched TFA and TLJ (before asking Rian to add Rey and Poe meet up) and conclude that Damerrey should be the endgame?

Because Poe was his self-insert and he wanted his self-insert to kiss a Jedi since he never could in real life

vaderito wrote:well, it's the same writer who put the note that Poe!? and Rey were the most important characters second only to Luke. There's so much wrong with this note.

But what really bums me is how the heck he watched TFA and TLJ (before asking Rian to add Rey and Poe meet up) and conclude that Damerrey should be the endgame?

@vaderito


because of Oscar Isaac's chiseled jawline..., the zookeeper main character dude in Jurassic Word has that jawline too

dayum, is that way they gave Poe rolled sleeves in TROS?

@vaderito wrote:The problem is really that characters they wanted to carry the Saga forward failed. That's why killing the best one is so jarring and ignited a passionate reaction. But if the trio succeeded in being as compelling as Kylo/Ben, which they didn't, people would be more accepting of the end of Skywalkers and need to move away from them

I can't blame them for trying to get away from the burden that represents the Skywalkers for their future projects. In itself, the idea of getting rid of a bloodline can be accepted if you enable your viewers to mourn in order to move on. Back in 2015, I wasn't thrilled by the idea of continuing this story.  I always ask myself: what is a story worth to continue for ? That's why I have never finished a serie, not watched more than the first three episodes of Pirates of Caribbeen and prefer the concept of dramas made of one single season with around 20 episodes. For me, a story must have a clear ending that leaves me as a viewer with the feeling that the story doesn't need to continue and that I can peacully move on. To me, ROTJ felt like a satisfying ending in a movie although I have never found this specific SW movie so great. Yet, my two memorable moments as I watched TFA fin the theaters was feeling moved when Rey introduced herself to Finn because I realized that she potentially Luke or Leia's daughter and excitedly asking my friend  (who couldn't understand German so well) "have you heard?" when Snoke confirmed that Kylo was Han and Leia's son. It's human within a sequel to a story that you've like for years to feel an immediate connection with the character(s) who bear the legacy of the previous generations you've seen on screen. But I don't remember either wanting the OT character behaving just like they did 30 years before and the ST trilogies just be their pale copy. What I find so great about Kylo is that from the first movie Adam managed  to make of him his own character despite being the legacy child. Despite many criticism that TFA was just a pale copy of TFA, I found that it was refreshing and meaningful because you feel that it's all about family drama and characters : a stormtrooper taken away from his family; a scavenger desperately waiting for the return of her parents; an heir rejecting his birth name; a family completely disintegrated by a circle tragedy. Where I agree with @Gemini is that changing the clones into "human" stormtroopers was a good idea because clones don't provide basis for good character story. IMO, the reason  DLF failed to get people invested in the new characters is precisely because most of the interactions felt superficial, interchangeable and nostalgic on the long run. That's what happens when you keep introducing main characters to new dynamics full of nostalgic callbacks instead of deepening the dynamic who matter the most to the story. The biggest failure in this area is Finn who could have got such a meaningful arc i.e. by contributing to free stormtroopers and finding out where he came from in the process. Instead of that, his arc became meaningless throughout the trilogy and his relationship with others characters - to the exception of Rey - remained rather superficial. All of that to have Jahnnah instead asking Landoabout her origins, only to bait fans with a future added-material: but why would I want to explore the story of a character that was introduced in the last act of the last movie and whom with I have no emotional connection with ? What has always made SW powerfully emotional is how family drama plays out in the dynamic between characters. That brings me back to what Georges Lucas seemed to fear about the new trilogy, when he said that SW is all about "family problems generations, grandfathers, fathers, sons" and that he expressed concern about how DLF was going to handle it. The thing  is you can't keep 24 arc and have people getting emotionally invested in main characters if most important dynamics aren't deepened enough, only to get retconned in the end. The reason why Reylo became a thing is because it's the only dynamic that was genuinely deepened over these three movies. Rey and Kylo  may be their own character, it's their dynamic that is the most fascinating.  But DLF chose quantity over quality in characterization and dynamic development. I get that the representation in SW must adapt itself to the evolution of modern societies but it just doesn't feel right:  they ended the franchise giving the audience this feeling that there is no deep sense of belonging for anybody and that people are pretty much alone despite forming a big "family" of friends on the surface : Skywalkers are not only dead but as disparate as family than in TFA ; Zorri refuse to be with Poe despite her asking to him come with her before; Finn doesn't get involved with anybody;  Jahnnah gets introduced with Lando for no reason instead of staying with Finn; Rose gets sidelined; Rey ends up alone in the desert with her cool name. People may feel more represented thanks to these different characters but I don't think that DLF fed properly the need for relevant dynamic between the characters.

Moonjump05 wrote:

special_cases wrote:HE'S NEVER KISSED A JEDI?



What, Poe is a Kisses Collector in that script? Who thinks like that after kissing someone? Are there any other Jedi around whom Poe could have kissed?

@special_cases

...Luke?

Was there a forbidden infatuation going on? What's the ship name, Loe or Puke?

@Moonjump05

Oh my God, PUKE is actually real. Kudos to shippers, I find Poe\Luke pairing much more interesting than Poe\Rey.

PUKE

Moonjump05 wrote:

special_cases wrote:HE'S NEVER KISSED A JEDI?



What, Poe is a Kisses Collector in that script? Who thinks like that after kissing someone? Are there any other Jedi around whom Poe could have kissed?

@special_cases

...Luke?

Was there a forbidden infatuation going on?  What's the ship name, Loe or Puke?

@Moonjump05

Hey, don't do that! I snorted loud at work and had people staring at me. lol

If things keep going that way, we will be here till the end of the year. This trilogy is becoming a sure source of amazement and laugh.

@reylo1992 You were so optimist in your first view of the movie. Now, that you had time to think about the movie, you understand why we didn't like it from the beginning. This movie does dirty with all characters and let us, the viewers, with several unresolved questions.

reylo1992 wrote:

Saracene wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:Not only it's a question of money since he became the favorite character but beyond that it's purely and simply a question of common sense given what that character represents in that particular story. The fact that they didn't realize it or ignore it to push a certain agenda shows that coherency of the story wasn't their priority. From the moment you make a character the only child of the Skywalker family in a trilogy sold as the sequel of the Skywalker saga, you can't expect people not to bond with that particular character, especially if you make him the victim of a tragedy that repeated itself and plagued his whole family.

@reylo1992

I think they genuinely believed that Ben finding redemption was by itself an uplifting ending. They just failed to see that Ben wasn't Vader and that his death didn't mean what Vader's death meant in the OT.

@Saracene

Agree but I would add that it's probably even worse than that. When I look back at JJ's comment that TROS was "supposed to tie 9 movies", I find his comment hypocritical in retrospect.  Basically, the PT don't exist in their version of SW. We get to see Cloud City and Endor after the final victory but screw Coruscant & Naboo. The family tragedy begun with the separation of the twin as the "original sin" as if  the fall of their father and the death of their mother wasn't the roots of that tragedy.  The Skywalker lightsaber originally belonged to Anakin aka the Chosen One but hey! Luke was the original hero so who cares about Anakin's tragic backstory and bringing him back as Force Ghost to have some significant role at some poin. Let's just have him tell some poor line to Rey in order to appease people who just care about coming back to the roots set up by TPM: what was supposed to be the Balance of the Force, what was Anakin chosen for and what oes it mean for the entire arc ? The story of Skywalker and Palpatine started on Naboo, where Anidala blossomed and where Padme wanted to give birth: screw! let's reunite the Twins in death on Tatooine where they were never supposed to be had the family tragedy never happened. Screw Schmi, Anakin, Padme & Ben as part of the Skywalker legacy because it all started with the Twins. You get my point: based on how they executed that story, it looks like in their mind the Skywalker arc is a 6 episode saga starting from ANH, with RO as introductory spin-off. Therefore, I am not so surprised any more that they went along with Ben = Vader vs. Rey = Skywalker and Reylo just as a better version of Anidala. Without taking into account that if Ben died saving Rey, does it mean that Anakin was meant to die anyway in order to save Padme?

@reylo1992

Omg! This. This makes me cry as it's super accurate. That's one of the biggest problems with this trilogy. They really don't reflect the whole story. Just the OT and even then they don't fully understand what made it work. It was all about the eye candy and evoking nostalgia within the viewer. I genuinely thought TFA was just an introduction to bring fans back who were disappointed by the PT as TLJ at least sort of acknowledged them a bit more with Luke's speech about Darth Sidious. I thought it was all leading somewhere and to a conclusion that could tie everything together. This is why I was never opposed to the idea of Snoke still surviving after TLJ and being revealed as Darth Plagueis. There's a lot of set up. Including when he tells Ben "You wonder why I keep a rabid cut in such a place of power. A cur's weakness properly manipulated can be a sharp tool." This could be written to reflect where we find Ben and Hux divided at the end of TLJ and the Resistance is equally down too. It's the perfect way to get out of the game of cat and mouse you create and then he invades the galaxy with the Knights of Ren and a fleet of new ships. Then he reveals himself as Plagueis and that he influenced a Jedi years ago to order a Clone Army as the Empire was a partnership of Master and Apprentice and that he's responsible for Anakin's origins (later revealed as the Force striking back like in the novel about him and the Tarkin novel) and would Ben rather choose him and his family or some girl he has no history with?

It's honestly too perfect in my opinion as it both respects Anakin's Legacy as the Chosen One and could be written that he fulfilled Balance of the Force but it never promised the end of the Dark Side itself. Which leads to Rey and Ben in a team up against a greater threat that's the true Dark Side against the former Sith as Anakin actually did destroy them.

It gives Finn, Rose, and others something to do with leading a stormtrooper revolt and fulfilling Anakin's childhood desire to come back and free all of the slaves.

It gives the Knights of Ren an actual story and the students who left with Ben.

It actually adds merit to the Opera House scene in ROTS without turning it into a spiteful story told by Palpatine. Same with Palpatine's "To cheat death is the power only one has achieved but if we work together I know we can discover the secret."

It gives the PT a purpose within the greater narrative and doesn't make them meaningless. It adds new layers to an already rich story and shows that things aren't always what they seem as "there's always a bigger fish"!

Most of all, it keeps the message of the saga as a whole intact and shows that love wins!

Piper Maru wrote:They needed all the blood-related Skywalkers dead so their concept of "Spiritual Skywalker" and "Skywalker as Myth" could have gravitas, too bad it backfired.

@Piper Maru

My cynical thought as I live in California and my regional television channels are now broadcasting Disneyland's latest round of "come visit us!" advertising spots that include a shot of Theme Park Rey as "find your inner Jedi!" is it's not even spiritual/mythological, the final intent was to turn her into a proxy for potential park visitors.

Otherwise best guess is that we know from the history of this board that back when TFA launched and then first wave of ancillary novels came out, there was at least a public display of being committed to telling a single cohesive story which tied back in with the PT and the OT and which at least you had Rian working with both Jason Fry and Claudia Grey to tell it well. But hiring Trevorrow on the heels of JW making stupid money is an indicator of where the studio's priorities were for that chapter, unfortunately. And as with "Rey Skywalker" it seems like there was a tug of war or at least differing visions between the members of the creative team (which Carrie's gone and Kasdan & Kiri Hart both parted ways with LF/the SG, and who knows what Rian's status actually is) about who Rey and Ben were, what was important about them and their backstories. Unfortunately the last chapter got turned into a theme park commercial and more about placating the nostalgia of potential consumers of a certain age versus telling a well thought-out/well-written story.

One thing is sure, Ben is not coming back during this management's tenure. Maybe new management takes a look at mistakes the old one made and salavage the situation, maybe not. But since this management was one that mandated his demise no matter what, he's 100% done as long as they are in power.

Bobby is going to retire in Dec 2021. Kathy can retire in 21-23. So...

As confident as I am that they will do more stuff with the ST characters, including Ben probably, I don't want it to be soon. It's too fresh and will only cause anger. Whatever the luminous thing and the upcoming movies are (I question if they're really getting it out in under 3 years at this point), LF's priorities right now seem far away from the Skywalker stuff. Both the audience and the studio need time to heal, or to start missing the people from this trilogy. Right now everyone's burned out. Give either nostalgia or pent up dissatisfaction time to grow organically, and figure out what you're actually going to do. I said it on another thread, they can basically choose between TROS and the rest of SW, and given that the only announced things were clearly in development pre-TROS release, I don't know which way they'll go.

If I had to guess, Ben's death was a combination of some of the creatives (who turned out to be the ones writing/editing the final chapter) wanting him as a bad a** Vader proxy while not really understanding/caring about how his story was in part also Han's larger story in the Saga or how the background story for the character made his death (and the implications for the previous trilogies) more tragic than hopeful. Same with the tug of war Rian wrote about in a meta sense for Rey - empty vessel for nostalgia or somebody who picks up the thread of the story when it's become legend/hides the truth and makes use of it in new ways. That part was always there in terms of her finding new life/purposes for the items she scavenged on Jakku and the threads dropped in TLJ and Solo, that the two of them could've ended the cycle/Saga and started a new chapter. Either way - Ben got whisked off stage to the Disney Vault because they had to hustle Rey off to the last 3 items on their nostalgia checklist as the face of "you too can be a Jedi [if you shell out the money for our theme park]." The fact he didn't Force Ghost means they were too busy hitting the nostalgia beats to figure out what to do with him because he would've upended the story in a direction that doesn't align with corporate strategy. However no Force Ghost does mean they can always bring him back. Though I wouldn't hold my breath because they squandered the opportunity while they had it (seriously, just let him survive and you've got years of sell-out novels & comic books as a product line) and uh, we all saw how a lot of the discussion around the ST/characters got derailed by discussions about EU characters/stories. I don't want to be that type of obsessive fan.

special_cases wrote:Bobby is going to retire in Dec 2021. Kathy can retire in 21-23. So...

@special_cases

My hubby Bobby isn't going anywhere. And, for the record, he did not write They Fly Know skit. He was really offended that someone thought he would write such trash.

so hubby has the conference call with shareholders and it looks like they are not moving out of OT era as far as D+ goes. they're focusing on TV: Mandalorian, Obiwan series, and the 'prequel to Rogue One' (obv Cassian series).Mando series could lead to other characters in the series moving in their own direction (could mean their own series?).

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/disneys-bob-iger-teases-mandalorian-falcon-winter-soldier-wandavision-dates-1276326

"During an earnings call, Iger revealed The Mandalorian will return in October and will run beyond season two, "including the possibility of infusing it with more characters and taking those characters in their own direction in terms of series."

I wish I could feel excited.

I'm not. they aren't getting SW butt out of OT era any time soon. Mando is cute but it isn't "OMG what happens next?" type of a deal.

The magic's gone, hasn't it v.