Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

vaderito wrote:Guys, I'm seriously baffled that first thing that crossed some people's minds here, including most rational posters, is that collecting ashes = Kylo the Ripper instead of Kylo's warrior ritual. He's a warrior. Warriors have rituals that include taking "souvenirs" from their enemies as a symbol of defeating the enemy. Are you calling The Sitting Bull, Geronimo, Crazy Horse, Cochise, etc lunatics for scalping their enemies and keeping those scalps as trophies, carrying them attached to their belts? Those are warrior rituals. Kylo is a Knight of Ren so you bet that this is connected to enemies he defeated in battle. Remember that warrior elite, the Jedi, practice cremation as their burial ritual? Vader, Qui Gonn were cremated. In ancient times, fallen enemy was gathered, cremated and their ashes spread all over the place. In other cultures, warriors practiced sticking severed heads on a pike, which is a form of collecting enemy body parts as trophies.

So relax. You are blowing this out of proportion. It's a trivia that most people won't know about. It just shows how removed from real life Internet is. Nobody outside of the Internet even remembers those ashes.

@vaderito

So much this! I too am shocked at how blown up this became in the course of less than twelve hours. To me it was an interesting tidbit. I'm definitely not changing my interpretation of this character based on a line from JJ that was meant to only add to what we already knew about Ren.

vaderito wrote:Guys, I'm seriously baffled that first thing that crossed some people's minds here, including most rational posters, is that collecting ashes = Kylo the Ripper instead of Kylo's warrior ritual. He's a warrior. Warriors have rituals that include taking "souvenirs" from their enemies as a symbol of defeating the enemy. Are you calling The Sitting Bull, Geronimo, Crazy Horse, Cochise, etc lunatics for scalping their enemies and keeping those scalps as trophies, carrying them attached to their belts? Those are warrior rituals. Kylo is a Knight of Ren so you bet that this is connected to enemies he defeated in battle. Remember that warrior elite, the Jedi, practice cremation as their burial ritual? Vader, Qui Gonn were cremated. In ancient times, fallen enemy was gathered, cremated and their ashes spread all over the place. In other cultures, warriors practiced sticking severed heads on a pike, which is a form of collecting enemy body parts as trophies.

So relax. You are blowing this out of proportion. It's a trivia that most people won't know about. It just shows how removed from real life Internet is. Nobody outside of the Internet even remembers those ashes.

@vaderito
THANK YOU. A much more detailed version of what I've been saying all day.

I seriously thought nothing of it until I logged on and saw everybody freaking out. I just noticed that the article confirmed how important the interrogation was. The ashes thing was such an afterthought because it just seemed like something JJ had ultimately omitted (like Chewie ripping off Unkar's arm).

Having seen it again recently, I agree that the "ashes of enemies he's killed" thing doesn't seem to go with: A) his character (the ashes thing is very serial-killer, rather than fascist dictator, which is where I thought they were going with Kylo and the obsession with "order" and the very public way he kills people so far), or B) Star Wars-- at least in the PT and OT.  It seems like it kind of doesn't make sense-- he acts more like this unstable warrior for some personal cause probably unknown to the audience, but this "hanging on to human remains" thing would (understandably) strike a modern audience as a serial-killer trait. It's like what looks cool outweighed what makes sense psychologically.

That said, I can't help but think that if they think of this character as being so disturbed that he keeps a tray of human ashes in his personal quarters, then they probably aren't setting him up as the guy who gets the girl.  

Ashes of the Jedi temple would have been a much less creepy response.  (Or Millicent's litter box, of course.)

AnneNeville wrote:We have seen this moment of the unmasking over and over again:


And no wonder! It's arresting! But perhaps an equally interesting moment is this one, about which there has been little conversation:


The creators thought it worth the time to show Kylo carry his mask over to an unseen box of ashes and then do a closeup of him thunking that monster-mask down, accompanied by a loud thunk and with the dust rising picturesquely around it. What does this moment mean? Why was it worth the screentime?

Now we can have pretty pictures.

That's actually a pitiful amount of enemy ashes, tbh.

I think the reason people are concerned is mostly because it speaks to the way Abrams thinks of the character? A much darker version than the one we see.

Of course, novel kylo was different than on screen kylo in terms of how he acted (a bit creepier) so again things change.

I mean ffs Poe was supposed to die and they changed it mid shooting lol

So I'm not overly concerned, but I can see why it disturbed their faith in Abrams story telling for some.

It is...definitely not a lot of ashes. I don't get it lol but whatever JJ

BastilaBey wrote:That's actually a pitiful amount of enemy ashes, tbh.

@BastilaBey

Yeah, I think it is more Millicent litterbox than enemy ashes.

AnneNeville wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:That's actually a pitiful amount of enemy ashes, tbh.

@BastilaBey

Yeah, I think it is more Millicent litterbox than enemy ashes.

@AnneNeville
It really doesn't seem like a lot of ashes lol

There's probably not many ashes left because they go poof in the air every time Kylo slams his mask down on them!

Plot twist: The ashes are Millicent. Does that make Kylo Ren unredeemable? Catricide?

BastilaBey wrote:Plot twist: The ashes are Millicent. Does that make Kylo Ren unredeemable? Catricide?

@BastilaBey

That is several steps TOO FAR. I'm outta here.

I knew I should have come to the forum for sensible discourse on frivolous topics. Here's my thoughts.

I think its important to note that Abrams is able to enjoy the luxury of presenting tongue-in-cheek interpretations of content now that Johnson is at the helm. People seem to forget the rule that if it's not used, it's background. And now, apparently--blown up.

Kalianah wrote:I think the reason people are concerned is mostly because it speaks to the way Abrams thinks of the character? A much darker version than the one we see.

Of course, novel kylo was different than on screen kylo in terms of how he acted (a bit creepier) so again things change.

I mean ffs Poe was supposed to die and they changed it mid shooting lol

So I'm not overly concerned, but I can see why it disturbed their faith in Abrams story telling for some.

@Kalianah

Exactly-- EXACTLY. (Sorry, had to break into Matt the Radar Technician there.). What bugs me is how the storytellers (possibly) think of him-- unless they come out and say, "This is a Knights of Ren ritual" or something, it does make one wonder whether THEY think of him as Kylo-the-Ripper. And yet, there's stuff like the Disney "Can he be redeemed?" thing, or the fact that he's Han & Leia's son and this is Star Wars.

Are you guys serious? Nothing is darker than patricide, certainly not keeping ashes of cremated warriors he killed (and yes, you can take it to the bank that those ashes were warriors, worthy ones). So you bet that he's a dark character. Damn right he is. he killed his father who was a good man, maybe not the best father but he was a good man. And Kylo loved him, which makes the killing ever more tragic.

Lily Snape wrote:

Kalianah wrote:I think the reason people are concerned is mostly because it speaks to the way Abrams thinks of the character? A much darker version than the one we see.

Of course, novel kylo was different than on screen kylo in terms of how he acted (a bit creepier) so again things change.

I mean ffs Poe was supposed to die and they changed it mid shooting lol

So I'm not overly concerned, but I can see why it disturbed their faith in Abrams story telling for some.

@Kalianah

Exactly-- EXACTLY. (Sorry, had to break into Matt the Radar Technician there.). What bugs me is how the storytellers (possibly) think of him-- unless they come out and say, "This is a Knights of Ren ritual" or something, it does make one wonder whether THEY think of him as Kylo-the-Ripper. And yet, there's stuff like the Disney "Can he be redeemed?" thing, or the fact that he's Han & Leia's son and this is Star Wars.

@Lily Snape
The movie is all that matters. There was zero mention of ritual burnings, serial killers or anything of the sort in the movie. JJ literally just liked the shot. The idea behind the ashes ultimately wasn't used in the movie, and it obviously wasn't important enough to bring up in the special features on the DVD either. Emphasizing Ben's childhood clearly mattered more to JJ.

Lily Snape wrote:

Kalianah wrote:I think the reason people are concerned is mostly because it speaks to the way Abrams thinks of the character? A much darker version than the one we see.

Of course, novel kylo was different than on screen kylo in terms of how he acted (a bit creepier) so again things change.

I mean ffs Poe was supposed to die and they changed it mid shooting lol

So I'm not overly concerned, but I can see why it disturbed their faith in Abrams story telling for some.

@Kalianah

Exactly-- EXACTLY.  (Sorry, had to break into Matt the Radar Technician there.).  What bugs me is how the storytellers (possibly) think of him-- unless they come out and say, "This is a Knights of Ren ritual" or something, it does make one wonder whether THEY think of him as Kylo-the-Ripper.  And yet, there's stuff like the Disney "Can he be redeemed?" thing, or the fact that he's Han & Leia's son and this is Star Wars.

@Lily Snape

It can't be how they think of him because they very deliberately presented a conflicted, multifaceted villain who did absolutely appalling things and yet somehow earned our sympathy. That wasn't a mistake on their part.

AshGate is as dumb as my freakout when Moviepilot hallucinated that GoT actress was cast as a pivotal female KoR. Anyone remembers my meltdown? KEEP YOUR PAWS OFF KYLO!!!!

Hopefully nobody's gonna remember AshGate next week. Like all Internet meltdowns over virtually nothing, it has to end soon.

Now I wonder if Kylo is going to have a new ashtray box in the next movie since the old one definitely go Ka-Boom with SKB 

Kalianah wrote:I think the reason people are concerned is mostly because it speaks to the way Abrams thinks of the character? A much darker version than the one we see.

Of course, novel kylo was different than on screen kylo in terms of how he acted (a bit creepier) so again things change.

I mean ffs Poe was supposed to die and they changed it mid shooting lol

So I'm not overly concerned, but I can see why it disturbed their faith in Abrams story telling for some.

@Kalianah

The bolded was what initially bothered me about JJ's 'tidbit' about the ashes of Kylo's enemies.  There was no context, no story or purpose given (unlike the cool theories you guys here have given), as if like JJ and Co. just thought it sounded like a cool 'villain thing' for Kylo to do.

However, as others have mentioned, even if it's canon, it's likely a warrior thing, maybe connected to the KOR. It's definitely not a serial killer practice. Kylo doesn't enjoy killing. That's a real life comparison and it's ridiculous. Kylo is obviously on some mission, like he's driven to do something he feels is greater or more important than anything, his family or his himself.

I reread an article Adam did about Kylo some time back and I think it helped put some stuff into perspective for me. In the article Adam says that "...theres definitely a history you see in [Kylo's] costume, of things in the past right away. They’re kind of like visible scars, on his outfit. In part to intimidate but also because he’s carrying along this history of people." Also Adam mentions that Kylo sees the following traits in himself that he sees in Vader:  "The commitment. Also, the ambition, and the loyalty. The self-sacrifice in him. They’re all huge, epic things to live up to."  What self-sacrifice I wonder...

Some people have mentioned that Rey is a scavenger, she finds things. That reminds me that Kylo appears to be a collector, he collects things. Im surprised he didn't offer her a job when he found out her occupation

@FrolickingFizzgig -- This is true.  It's just, as (I think) @Reynak says in another thread, this is going pretty far to emphasize the grim factor.  To me, it tells me something of their mindset, and it makes Reylo-as-canon less likely to me if that's part of the character to his creators.  Which is a bummer.  That said, the warrior thing is a good point-- and the fact that he's deliberately complex and even sympathetic-- and that they hired such a good actor to play him, unmasked said actor, revealed his humanity this early in the series, etc.

On an unrelated note-- you are having quite a conversation with Pablo on Twitter.  

On a related note-- agreed that it's not a lot of ashes.  Rey could probably beat him at that too, just with the stormtroopers she took out on Takodana.  

Adam and actors playing KoR were ordered to watch Seven Samurai together, so you bet that AshGate is about warrior practice. Like, so obvious but people always think the worst first.

Lily Snape wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig -- This is true.  It's just, as (I think) @Reynak says in another thread, this is going pretty far to emphasize the grim factor.  To me, it tells me something of their mindset, and it makes Reylo-as-canon less likely to me if that's part of the character to his creators.  Which is a bummer.  That said, the warrior thing is a good point-- and the fact that he's deliberately complex and even sympathetic-- and that they hired such a good actor to play him, unmasked said actor, revealed his humanity this early in the series, etc.

On an unrelated note-- you are having quite a conversation with Pablo on Twitter.  

On a related note-- agreed that it's not a lot of ashes.  Rey could probably beat him at that too, just with the stormtroopers she took out on Takodana.  

@Lily Snape
And yet it still wasn't in the movie... most people would be like "What ashes?"

What happens in Episodes VIII and IX belong to VIII and IX. Obviously the ashes weren't a big deal/will never be alluded to again because JJ mentioned them so casually.

Question, what if the "enemies" that JJ mention is the fallen KOR who either challenged Kylo for his status as the Master or the former Masters who being defeated by Kylo and keeping the ashes is just a tradition? 

God, I hope PH, Mark, Daisy or someone drop a bomb soon that at least Reylo related so that we can move on from this ashes 

Sylvia Snow wrote:Question, what if the "enemies" that JJ mention is the fallen KOR who either challenged Kylo for his status as the Master or the former Masters who being defeated by Kylo and keeping the ashes is just a tradition? 

God, I hope PH, Mark, Daisy or someone drop a bomb soon that at least Reylo related so that we can move on from this ashes 

@Sylvia Snow

There actually was a major Reylo moment in the article about the ashes, but it got overlooked. JJ said that it was always the case that Ren was going to first reveal his face to Rey. That moment is hugely symbolic, and it was a core plot point. It says something about Ren, Rey, and what she means to him.