Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

seriously, who cares about these ashes?!?! just let Kylo be a villain for now...we all know it wont last...

BastilaBey wrote:

Sylvia Snow wrote:Question, what if the "enemies" that JJ mention is the fallen KOR who either challenged Kylo for his status as the Master or the former Masters who being defeated by Kylo and keeping the ashes is just a tradition? 

God, I hope PH, Mark, Daisy or someone drop a bomb soon that at least Reylo related so that we can move on from this ashes 

@Sylvia Snow

There actually was a major Reylo moment in the article about the ashes, but it got overlooked. JJ said that it was always the case that Ren was going to first reveal his face to Rey. That moment is hugely symbolic, and it was a core plot point. It says something about Ren, Rey, and what she means to him.

@BastilaBey

Thank you, but the " what she means to him" sounds like something that suit for a romantic movie 

Sylvia Snow wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

Sylvia Snow wrote:Question, what if the "enemies" that JJ mention is the fallen KOR who either challenged Kylo for his status as the Master or the former Masters who being defeated by Kylo and keeping the ashes is just a tradition? 

God, I hope PH, Mark, Daisy or someone drop a bomb soon that at least Reylo related so that we can move on from this ashes 

@Sylvia Snow

There actually was a major Reylo moment in the article about the ashes, but it got overlooked. JJ said that it was always the case that Ren was going to first reveal his face to Rey. That moment is hugely symbolic, and it was a core plot point. It says something about Ren, Rey, and what she means to him.

@BastilaBey

Thank you, but the " what she means to him" sounds like something that suit for a romantic movie 

Wow...JJ actually said that????

Mana wrote:seriously, who cares about these ashes?!?! just let Kylo be a villain for now...we all know it wont last...

@Mana

Exactly. Kylo isn't a maniac or he would be gleefully happy to blow up star systems with Hux and Snoke. As it is, he's disgusted. Ashes guaranteed have something to do with warrior traditions and we know that warriors such as Vader and Quin Gonn were honorably cremated.

Plus Millicent has to bury her poop in something.

Mana wrote:

Sylvia Snow wrote:

BastilaBey wrote:

Sylvia Snow wrote:Question, what if the "enemies" that JJ mention is the fallen KOR who either challenged Kylo for his status as the Master or the former Masters who being defeated by Kylo and keeping the ashes is just a tradition? 

God, I hope PH, Mark, Daisy or someone drop a bomb soon that at least Reylo related so that we can move on from this ashes 

@Sylvia Snow

There actually was a major Reylo moment in the article about the ashes, but it got overlooked. JJ said that it was always the case that Ren was going to first reveal his face to Rey. That moment is hugely symbolic, and it was a core plot point. It says something about Ren, Rey, and what she means to him.

@BastilaBey

Thank you, but the " what she means to him" sounds like something that suit for a romantic movie 

Wow...JJ actually said that????

@Mana

No, it's not me quoting him but underlining the important of Ren unmasking him to someone else for the first time in what could be years. And it's for someone he's literally just met. Here's the article http://www.ew.com/article/2016/04/05/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-kylo-ren-ashes

The point is, lots of people have criticized the movie for having Ren unmask for someone other than Han - actually, some have said he shouldn't have unmasked for anyone. And they missed the point. He was always going to take his mask off for Rey, right from the start. That makes it meaningful. Rey's perception matters to him.

I find it amusing they had to keep having Adam put the mask on for him to be a terrifying villain.

panki wrote:@Darth Dingbat.......ohh! You have given me an idea! And it might be something related to a thought I had a while back when listening to a review of the SW Rebels finale.....these are not new ashes at all!

The Rebels visit Malachor and the place looks like Pompeii, with ash and dead bodies everywhere....when they brought Malachor from EU to canon, they made it a place where the jedi and sith had a major battle....so there are ashes everywhere




This also happens to be the place Ezra picks up a lightsaber that is a cross guard just like the one Kylo uses....



Kylo might have visited Malachor........The ashes in Kylo's room could be the ashes of the dead jedi in Malachor....and it all adds more weight to a theory I am beginning to form about what Kylo wants to finish for Vader.

@panki

You are the SW Lore Research Goddess @Panki!!! I cannot wait to see this theory!

vaderito wrote:Adam and actors playing KoR were ordered to watch Seven Samurai together, so you bet that AshGate is about warrior practice. Like, so obvious but people always think the worst first.

@vaderito  

I didn't know that ... about the Seven Samurai.  Also, @jakkusun has brought up some great arguments in the Adam Driver thread that everyone should check out about how AD might have brought over his military experiences and those he has encountered in his military non-profit, where he utilizes works like Greek tragedies to helped returning warriors deal with the sufferings of war.  (The quotes from the book AD narrates The Theatre of War: What Ancient Greek Tragedies Can Teach Us Today are incredibly relevant to Kylo Ren's grey character and as KR as a warrior).  AD also said JJ was very collaborative about developing the character.  Now add in this Seven Samurai, and there is no question that there is a serious warrior ethos in there.

@AnneNeville: "I find it amusing they had to keep having Adam put the mask on for him to be a terrifying villain."

That's because they have given AD so much sympathetic backstory and direction to work with! :-) I am sure Adam could do evil just fine. They just didn't give him that kind of backstory ... and what are they going to say "Adam, you're interpreting this too well ... you're giving away our secrets" No, they don't want to hold him back. Better to reshoot with the mask or CGI it and let Adam do what he's trained to do.

@SoloSideCousin That's cool! No wonder they think Adam Driver is perfect for the role. His acting, his military experiences, etc... he just brings a lot to his character, and to SW all in all.


In the honor of the Ashgate:

@SoloSideCousin -- It's like JJ is trolling, if that's the case. There's this whole warrior ethos going on but he drops just enough info, but not enough.

Lily Snape wrote:@SoloSideCousin -- It's like JJ is trolling, if that's the case. There's this whole warrior ethos going on but he drops just enough info, but not enough.

@Lily Snape

I like JJ, but with all his "mystery box" stuff, there is no question he has his troll moments. :-)

Hey guys, there is a meta on tumblr about the ashes now hahaha have you seen it :Kylo’s Ashes and What they DON’T Mean.

@SoloSideCousin I'm so happy you liked my post about Theater of War etc. I was quite proud of it. Everyone thinking about buying it should get the audio book because of the Adam Driver narration. Like seriously.

A rather macabre little detail, but then Kylo has been with Snoke for a few years and he's well sunk into villainy (except for that pesky pull to the light that just won't go away). I can't say it changes my perception of him or his potential for redemption in any way.

Unless his "enemies" included felines. Because then I'd be like:

DIIEEEE KITTY KILLER *throws Kylo down the shaft*

SoloSideCousin wrote:

vaderito wrote:Adam and actors playing KoR were ordered to watch Seven Samurai together, so you bet that AshGate is about warrior practice. Like, so obvious but people always think the worst first.

@vaderito  

I didn't know that ... about the Seven Samurai.  Also, @jakkusun has brought up some great arguments in the Adam Driver thread that everyone should check out about how AD might have brought over his military experiences and those he has encountered in his military non-profit, where he utilizes works like Greek tragedies to helped returning warriors deal with the sufferings of war.  (The quotes from the book AD narrates The Theatre of War: What Ancient Greek Tragedies Can Teach Us Today are incredibly relevant to Kylo Ren's grey character and as KR as a warrior).  AD also said JJ was very collaborative about developing the character.  Now add in this Seven Samurai, and there is no question that there is a serious warrior ethos in there.

@AnneNeville: "I find it amusing they had to keep having Adam put the mask on for him to be a terrifying villain."

That's because they have given AD so much sympathetic backstory and direction to work with! :-)  I am sure Adam could do evil just fine.  They just didn't give him that kind of backstory ... and what are they going to say "Adam, you're interpreting this too well ... you're giving away our secrets"  No, they don't want to hold him back.  Better to reshoot with the mask or CGI it and let Adam do what he's trained to do.

@SoloSideCousin

Seven samurai and generally Kurosawa were the main source of inspiration for George Lucas, back in the 70s, so it was more like going back to the core of SW... something they completely screwed up doing the PT.

Saracene wrote:Unless his "enemies" included felines. Because then I'd be like:

DIIEEEE KITTY KILLER *throws Kylo down the shaft*

@Saracene

There I ll join you to bring the end to the destruction of felines and bring back order to the galaxy. (* channeling James Earl Jones voice*)

One day after #ASHGATE 2016, I am not as upset, especially after reading the comments by @frolickingfizzgigg & @ varedito. However, I stand by my initial assessment of JJ and his misunderstanding of this genre. I will not be burned by JJ and his baiting, so I love the idea of Reylo
but I am now probably in a more healthy place and I can now ship with detachment. Comments from this forum, tumbler and facebook all sum up and articulate how I feel much better than I ever could....


@Lily Snape

Having seen it again recently, I agree that the "ashes of enemies he's killed" thing doesn't seem to go with: A) his character (the ashes thing is very serial-killer, rather than fascist dictator, which is where I thought they were going with Kylo and the obsession with "order" and the very public way he kills people so far), or B) Star Wars-- at least in the PT and OT. It seems like it kind of doesn't make sense-- he acts more like this unstable warrior for some personal cause probably unknown to the audience, but this "hanging on to human remains" thing would (understandably) strike a modern audience as a serial-killer trait. It's like what looks cool outweighed what makes sense psychologically.
L


That said, I can't help but think that if they think of this character as being so disturbed that he keeps a tray of human ashes in his personal quarters, then they probably aren't setting him up as the guy who gets the girl.  

@Kalianah
I think the reason people are concerned is mostly because it speaks to the way Abrams thinks of the character? A much darker version than the one we see.

@Kessel89
The bolded was what initially bothered me about JJ's 'tidbit' about the ashes of Kylo's enemies.  There was no context, no story or purpose given (unlike the cool theories you guys here have given), as if like JJ and Co. just thought it sounded like a cool 'villain thing' for Kylo to do.

http://a-shipper-despite-herself.tumblr.com/post/142338441174/some-thoughts-on-ashgate

First, it made me wonder if the makers of this film actually envision a very different character from what I saw. Is it all a lie? Is everything mere self-delusion on my part? Was anything in this mystery box real? I don’t think being a fan of Star Wars is supposed to lead to existential crises, but that’s what it feels like at the moment.



2. It’s okay to be bummed out by this. That doesn’t make you a bad fan, and it doesn’t mean you’re overreacting. A nuanced character like Kylo Ren consists of its details, so the details absolutely do matter. It’s okay to react emotionally, too. From my point of view, this fandom experience has been a lot like falling in love. The emotional investment is not based on rational choices. Unfortunately, it’s also possible to fall out of love.

The ash thing is inconsistent and sloppy.

I’m not going to try and make it make sense with meta.  It’s bad writing.  It was a bad idea to leak it now.

If Kylo Ren were freebasing his enemy’s blood or whatever, his conflict in the movie makes no sense.  Leia’s faith in him makes no sense.  We can write a lot of meta trying to make it make sense.  But again, we’d have to basically say his entire arc in the story did not happen.  Because he was already snorting enemy ash before the story even started.

It makes Kylo’s characterization wildly inconsistent, IMO. They’ve set up a character who is explicitly coded as conflicted, states he’s being “torn apart,” is tortured by the call to the Light… and now JJ is like “jk he actually keeps the ashes of his enemies in the tray where he stores his headgear.” That’s not a conflicted character. That’s ridiculously over-the-top evil, and it doesn’t jibe with the explicit conflict THEY THEMSELVES have established. It truly feels like the filmmakers just can’t decide how evil they want Kylo to be and are waffling all over the place. One day he’s a tragic character driven by parental abandonment. The next he’s one step away from drinking his victims’ blood from hollowed out skulls.

https://www.facebook.com/topic/JJ-Abrams/195914353873554?source=whfrt&position=1&trqid=6270391247690458805

really love this explanation and it makes Kylo less of a petulant child and more of a rage-filled serial killer. I wish this would've been fleshed out in the movie though, as I had assumed the ashes were Vader's.


Chris Reznak
8 hrs ·
They keep giving me ammunition. Even if the audience knew this, it would help if the guy was scary. You don't use the guy from "Girls" as the villain in a Star Wars movie. And what about his explanation about changing scenes around. You can't just put something in there because it looks cool. This is the mentality we're dealing with.

spacebaby45678 wrote:One day after #ASHGATE 2016, I am not as upset, especially after reading the comments by @frolickingfizzgigg & @ varedito. However, I stand by my initial assessment of JJ and his misunderstanding of this genre. I will not be burned by JJ and his baiting, so I love the idea of Reylo
but I am now probably in a more healthy place and I can now ship with detachment. Comments from this forum, tumbler and facebook all sum up and articulate how I feel much better than I ever could....

@spacebaby45678

Glad you're feeling better and haven't left the fandom completely! *hugs*

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:One day after #ASHGATE 2016, I am not as upset, especially after reading the comments by @frolickingfizzgigg & @ varedito. However, I stand by my initial assessment of JJ and his misunderstanding of this genre. I will not be burned by JJ and his baiting, so I love the idea of Reylo
but I am now probably in a more healthy place and I can now ship with detachment. Comments from this forum, tumbler and facebook all sum up and articulate how I feel much better than I ever could....

@spacebaby45678

Glad you're feeling better and haven't left the fandom completely! *hugs*

@AppleCrumble122

Thanks!
T

I think jj is a troll, so no problem for me

seriously, people, AshGate put in sharp relief how unhealthy our investment in these characters is. Kylo is a fictional character. he has no mind of his own. he does what writers tell him to do. if they say "fall in love", he falls in love. if they say "kill so and so, burn him and collect his ashes", he kills so and so, burns him and collects his ashes. That's what he is, writer's puppet like any fictional character. he is at writer's mercy and so are we with him. It's not worth it to be that invested.

Look at our opposition. They are not invested in their favorites enough to have Internet meltdown over ship sinking quotes such as "BFF". That's more condemning to a ship than AshGate would ever be for Kylo, his redemption and Reylo. yet there are crickets on their side and meltdowns on our. It's unhealthy. This has to be reigned in.

Well, I don't appreciate being lectured about shipping on a forum about a ship. I do not think it's unhealthy to be upset about something that could be interpreted negatively towards a ship.

Reylo itself is an intricate ship that was built in front of us, we've written so much about it and how it fits and meta and fanfic and we're here on a Reylo only forum.

It would be unhealthy imo if people were threatening things or self harm or whatever.

I can think of numerous passions that are more mainstream where people have major meltdowns and no one says that's unhealthy.

Calling him a writers puppet is completely disingenuous because he's a crafted character, but movies and books have so much context and devices they use to build them. We're just analyzing and understanding what they're building.

So to say that he just does what they tell him is correct but also way oversimplifying the characterization process.

This fits into his character, but I have no surprise or concern for those who initially took it very negatively for the ship.

vaderito wrote:seriously, people, AshGate put in sharp relief how unhealthy our investment in these characters is. Kylo is a fictional character. he has no mind of his own. he does what writers tell him to do. if they say "fall in love", he falls in love. if they say "kill so and so, burn him and collect his ashes", he kills so and so, burns him and collects his ashes. That's what he is, writer's puppet like any fictional character. he is at writer's mercy and so are we with him. It's not worth it to be that invested.

Look at our opposition. They are not invested in their favorites enough to have Internet meltdown over ship sinking quotes such as "BFF". That's more condemning to a ship than AshGate would ever be for Kylo, his redemption and Reylo. yet there are crickets on their side and meltdowns on our. It's unhealthy. This has to be reigned in.

@vaderito

I agree. The problem is that people who see the possibility of a connection and a romantic arc between Rey and Kylo have been heavily insulted. As one of them, I've had my intelligence, my ability to interpret film, and even my moral values insulted repeatedly. It then becomes personal, and it's a problem. Sure, I know we interpreted TFA correctly, but there is such thing as bad storytelling...

But still, we should not be so edgy. There are two sides in this story. One side argues with supporting arguments from storytelling, filming techniques, filmmakers' and actors' comments, etc. The other side insults. Which side, which side, may I ask you, is more likely to be correct?

Personally I feel no desire to insult people who believe Finn and Rey is a romantic pairing. I can see where they come from, and sometimes I even feel bad for them.

And now, thinking about it, I think it's rather childish to be upset because of some people who, for the most part, cannot counter arguments with arguments or write a persuasive argument.  (I mean here the people who offend and mock anyone who sees Reylo).

Like I said, there's no way that those ashes are not connected with warriorship. Burning warrior's bodies and spreading or collecting ashes is nothing unusual. SW did that with Vader and Qui Gonn so obviously there's cremation tradition. Kylo isn't Eichmann if you are thinking that kind of cremation. he obviously has some code of honor, hence disgust at blowing up planets. Also, the villagers fought so they fall under warrior description and warrior code.

Here's illustration that burning bodies is part of warrior tradition, one of the most beautiful burials in movies:

This is unfortunately how it's gonna be for two years. We can trust our own interpretations or be filled with doubt every time a new tweet comes out. Just this morning PH liked tweets that suggest a complex Kylo, a reversal from yesterday.

vaderito wrote:Like I said, there's no way that those ashes are not connected with warriorship. Burning warrior's bodies and spreading or collecting ashes is nothing unusual. SW did that with Vader and Qui Gonn so obviously there's cremation tradition. Kylo isn't Eichmann if you are thinking that kind of cremation. he obviously has some code of honor, hence disgust at blowing up planets. Also, the villagers fought so they fall under warrior description and warrior code.

Here's illustration that burning bodies is part of warrior tradition, one of the most beautiful burials in movies:

@vaderito

I agree, I mean I think it's dark of him to do in general, but to say it isn't connected or wasn't developed in honor of the knights concept is folly.

But I do understand why people initially got really upset, because that isn't part of our usual knowledge base.