Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

I actually don't think they intended for people to think much about the ashes at all, beyond it being cool looking. Then the Vader's ashes theory was circulating and JJ probably just thought it was a good idea to share the initial concept for that scene, just as they have shared concept art for previous incarnations of the Jedi killer. Those characters are not Kylo Ren. I don't think they're even meant to be Han and leia's son, it's just the initial big bad they had, who perhaps was also a former padawan of Luke's.

@Ohtze I just saw your tumblr post and I am in stitches.  I'm probably the most pro-redemptionist #SaveBenSolo zealout you will find here, and I am cracking up.  Thank you for everything that you bring to the fandom.    

@BastilaBey -- I guess where I have a problem with it is that it's in Rey's interrogation scene. Unlike various other aspects of the "Jedi Killer" concept, they actually filmed the ashes.

Lily Snape wrote:@BastilaBey -- I guess where I have a problem with it is that it's in Rey's interrogation scene. Unlike various other aspects of the "Jedi Killer" concept, they actually filmed the ashes.

@Lily Snape

As usual, JJ didn't clue us into the full context of why the ashes were there. My theory is: Kylo loves his objects. His own mask, Vader's helmet, his layered outfit that reveals nothing, not even his neck. He needs these things to ground him in the darkness...and yet? He still feels the pull to the light. He is denying a fundamental part of himself, and he's bloody miserable because of it. That image they shared of him putting the mask down in the ashes. Does he look like he's glorying in the murders he's committed? No. In my opinion, they had him keep the ashes there as a reminder of what he's done, as 'proof' that he is as dark as both he and Snoke need him to be. It's the same reason he kills his father, he is desperate to prove himself as a fully fledged darksider, and he's anything but.

rey09 wrote:So I'm trying to get this straight...the ashes thing is ultimately not true? JJ liked the idea but then changed his mind...? I don't get it--- if it was an old idea, why even mention it? Seems irrelevant to me.

@rey09
J.J. was just talking about how abandoned set-pieces or ideas could be refurbished and accommodated in new ways. He used the tray of ashes as an example. He just liked the shot. He may have also wanted to kill the "Vader's ashes" theory. Everybody just assumed that was what the ashes were about. For the most part though, it really seems like he just fond of the shot. I can see why!

@BastilaBey -- I think the whole thing is badly done, because how many people are going to take the time to analyze it like you have and see any nuances? "Ashes of the burnt Jedi temple" would have been one thing-- human remains just crosses a line, especially those of his enemies (it's just way creepier than the remnants of Vader's funeral pyre or something.) They create this complex, conflicted villain, and then they kind of throw him off the mental health deep end there, invoking what people think of as serial killer behavior, which makes him very different from messed-up but sane. It's SO not Star Wars-- I'll not be surprised if JJ back-pedals on it. You don't take the iconic guy who is all over the T-shirts and merchandise and stuff for little kids and make him take such a grim, creepy turn. (I hope, anyway.)

But JJ did backpedal on it. It didn't make it into the film. The ashes in the interrogation scene are not what JJ described, it was just used because it was a cool looking shot. He said they initially had Kylo place the helmet down on a flat surface but it had no dramatic impact. This is a fictional character that evolved through lots and lots of ideas, many were shed and what remained was what we got in the movie. That's what we were meant to see, that's what the writers and director and the actor himself considered their best version. Whatever didn't make it in, is not canon - even more so if it's not mentioned in the novelization, which these ashes were not.

@MyOnlyHope Ah so he ashes of enemies was originally just going with the Vader helmet scene? But then the shot itself was used in the unmasking because it was cool shot? So the backstory doesn't matter? Sorry if I sound slow lol, I'm just confused by his language.

I feel that these two parts are contradictory:

It also means we almost saw Driver’s face much earlier in the film, when he stares into the molten mask of Vader and vows to finish what his grandfather started. “He originally had his mask off the first time we shot that scene. Then we reshot it with his mask on, but we had that shot which I loved and thought was so cool of the mask being slammed down into that ash,” Abrams says. “So that shot was stolen from the scene that we had changed and put into the scene with Rey.”

VS

In drafts of the script, Ren always removed his mask to show his face to Rey.

I don't get how he was always supposed to unmask in front of her, but then he was close to taking off his mask with the Vader scene? Am I confusing unmasking to Rey with unmasking to the audience?

rey09 wrote:So I'm trying to get this straight...the ashes thing is ultimately not true? JJ liked the idea but then changed his mind...? I don't get it--- if it was an old idea, why even mention it? Seems irrelevant to me.

@rey09
Well the tiny clip of the ashes is still in the film, so I guess a case could be made, but the backstory of the ashes is never going to be relevant to the story they're telling. We don't know how long ago the scene was cut, but it was long enough ago that it didn't end up in the final shooting script (which the novelization is based on). It also wasn't deemed important enough to mention in any other canonical extras, including the DVD features, novelization (which includes a lot of information not in the movie), Visual Dictionary, script, any of it. I imagine JJ decided not to include it a long time ago.

As for mentioning unused ideas, there's a whole book of them (some used, some unused) in the Art of the Force Awakens. There are tons of unused concepts that the team didn't have a problem with sharing, and many people involved have also discussed scenes that were cut from the final version, such as Maz's revelation of being Force-Sensitive, Chewie ripping off Unkar's arm, Maz handing Leia the lightsaber (a clip of which still exists in the first trailer), etc. This is no different.

Ideas change, even during production. JJ decided not to include the scene for a reason. Is it "canonical" to Kylo's character? Who knows, you'd have to ask JJ about that, but the fact is it's never going to be relevant to Johnson's movie or Trevorrow's movie. Abrams literally just mentioned it because someone asked him about it, so he told the backstory of the ashes that ultimately wasn't used in the movie.

A quote from JJ about ideas:

"I also know [Star Wars] is bigger than George. It's bigger than all of us. That thing he created, there's all sorts of revisionist history about what was written at the beginning and what everybody always knew, but the fact is we all saw it was called Revenge of the Jedi until it was called Return of the Jedi. We know things change as they went along. That's beautiful, and that's what storytelling is and it's cool. [...] We need to be open to the better idea at every stage."

@Rey09
Yes, you're confusing the two. The idea was always to have Kylo take off his mask for Rey, but they ultimately decided to have that scene be his first unmasking. He was originally going to unmask alone for Vader's helmet, but they scrapped that idea. JJ just liked the clip of the helmet in the ashes so he decided to use it even though the scene had been cut.

Lily Snape wrote:@BastilaBey -- I think the whole thing is badly done, because how many people are going to take the time to analyze it like you have and see any nuances?  "Ashes of the burnt Jedi temple" would have been one thing-- human remains just crosses a line, especially those of his enemies (it's just way creepier than the remnants of Vader's funeral pyre or something.) They create this complex, conflicted villain, and then they kind of throw him off the mental health deep end there, invoking what people think of as serial killer behavior, which makes him very different from messed-up but sane.  It's SO not Star Wars-- I'll not be surprised if JJ back-pedals on it.  You don't take the iconic guy who is all over the T-shirts and merchandise and stuff for little kids and make him take such a grim, creepy turn.  (I hope, anyway.)

@Lily Snape

Yes, that's a good way to put it.  That's what it seems like.

And the bolded part above really kind of sums up the way I feel about it.

Here's food for thought. A couple of months ago, Pablo was asked directly about the ashes. This is the day Millicent was created - he stated (and I'm paraphrasing) that that was Hux's tabby cat's litter box. The cat's name was Millicent, and from that point on, 1001 Kylux fan fics were launched.

The fact is, I don't think Pablo KNEW what they were for. If he did, he might have answered. If Pablo didn't know, how important is it really to the story?

@IoJovi

Incredibly unimportant. Just an early concept that survived because it looked neat.

@iojovi Excellent point. And how sad would it be if we didn't have Millicent in Kylux fics/art? Seriously though, anyone who is worried that this might affect the redemption arc: please don't be. The ashes do not matter. Kylo has killed people, he's done terrible things and there's still light in him. He's not going to stay on the dark side just because he had a tiny bit of ash in his room.

I still find it comical that people think of this as if it's the worst thing he's ever done.

AnneNeville wrote:@IoJovi

Incredibly unimportant. Just an early concept that survived because it looked neat.

@AnneNeville
And yet people are still melting down. I would literally be willing to wager a serious bet that the ashes are never going to be mentioned again xD

IoJovi wrote:Here's food for thought.  A couple of months ago, Pablo was asked directly about the ashes.  This is the day Millicent was created - he stated (and I'm paraphrasing) that that was Hux's tabby cat's litter box.  The cat's name was Millicent, and from that point on, 1001 Kylux fan fics were launched.

The fact is, I don't think Pablo KNEW what they were for.  If he did, he might have answered.  If Pablo didn't know, how important is it really to the story?  

@IoJovi

Ashes =/= important but this IS:

vaderito wrote:

IoJovi wrote:Here's food for thought.  A couple of months ago, Pablo was asked directly about the ashes.  This is the day Millicent was created - he stated (and I'm paraphrasing) that that was Hux's tabby cat's litter box.  The cat's name was Millicent, and from that point on, 1001 Kylux fan fics were launched.

The fact is, I don't think Pablo KNEW what they were for.  If he did, he might have answered.  If Pablo didn't know, how important is it really to the story?  

@IoJovi

Ashes =/= important but this IS:

@vaderito
Only weird thing is that Millicent is clearly male... orange tabbies are rarely female, something to do with a cat's DNA. Like how calico cats are almost never male.

S/he looks like one of my cats.

Roughly 10 to 20% of tabbies are female. So yes, she could indeed be a she. She's quite large though in that photo!

My cat Princess was huge but she was 1/4 wild cat. Hey, PH is a proud cat owner so he would know. Though he never said that Millicent was ginger. It's fans who made her ginger like Hux's hair.

Actually if memory serves, I think he mentioned Millicent was a tabby in the tweet.

IoJovi wrote:Roughly 10 to 20% of tabbies are female. So yes, she could indeed be a she. She's quite large though in that photo!

@IoJovi
She would be on the rarer side, but yeah, orange tabbies can be female. They just often aren't.

The photo is clearly of a male cat. You can tell. Size, facial structure.

Facial structure for sure. females never grow such big round heads.

vaderito wrote:Facial structure for sure. females never grow such big round heads.

@vaderito
Wouldn't be surprised if every female on this forum owns a cat (possibly more than one). I may or may not have four.

I had a cat when I was 11 but had to get rid of her because my mam got pregnant and cats are not good pets to have around a new born baby.
I miss her though, her name was Cheeky-Boots