Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

I think a lot of people are upset

But people who are optimistic, we've seen this a million times before. Spike from Buffy was pure evil, he revelled in torture and murder, he then met a girl, Buffy. The spike we see in the later part of the series still did not have a soul but he was not the same vampire we had seen in earlier seasons/in flash backs.He had to psych himself up in order to bite a girl because he didnt really want to do it any more, eventually he made himself change to be a better man and the catalyst for this was buffy and the light. He fot his soul back and they fell in love.

@FrolickingFizzgig: I think the negativity just comes from the fact that different people see the whole "collecting the ashes of his enemies" thing differently. To some, collecting mementoes of people you've killed is a typical psycho serial killer trope, so it adds a different level of creepiness to a character that we've all interpreted in our own ways. We've seen him do terrible things, but Kylo has been surrounded by an air of ambiguity, he was layered, tormented and a pretty tragic figure all in all. It takes a while to adjusts my idea of Kylo Ren to this new "creepy villain" factoid.

Yes, this element of the story didn't end up in the film. But I'm personally a bit disappointed that JJ chose to tell about it at all, to imply that this is indeed the backstory of the ashes.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:

Little_Boots wrote:I'm not leaving the forum myself, although my frame of mind has been shifted. I dunno what it is but I found it creepy.
Fine, if Kylo wants to keep remains of his grandfather, he's disturbed and to be fair ashes are something people keep anyway in their homes after a loved one leaves them and people talk to the ashes. If Kylo needs to be reminded of his evil self that was the whole point of him talking to the mask in the first place. He asked it to show him the dark side. Does he also talk to the ashes? I doubt it.

@Little_Boots

I to find it creepy, and EDIT, who uses his mystery boxes aka storytelling fan bait.  At first I believed that the romantic hints in the movie was fangurl bait, but became convinced that there was an actual romantic/redemptive arc to the story. Now this makes believe that it was ALL BAIT.
EDIT... THAT.IS. ALL.

@spacebaby45678

I don't know what I believe, but the trolling doesn't inspire much confidence in me, that's for sure.

I honestly thought - still think - there's so much beautiful symbolism going on here, and a gorgeous, epic story arc waiting to happen.

My biggest problem isn't with those ashes; the information isn't even canon because it doesn't appear in any of the canon sources. My biggest problem is that I've started to have serious doubts about JJ's mystery box storytelling. At first I thought it was just frustratingly coy, now I wonder if the story itself will turn out to be disappointing after all - half-baked, genre-confused and decidedly non-epic.

My problem with the trolling and messing around is that it's actually making those people who want to look more deeply into things - and give even fictional characters the benefit of the doubt before the whole story is told - feel like idiots. Even if it's just temporarily... it's still feeling like idiots.

And if it later turns out that "heh heh, those were actually the metaphorical ashes of Ben Solo, so his enemy's ashes from a certain point of view" or something, it's just... eh. Trolling for the sake of trolling?

This rollercoaster is getting old really fast Now I can guess what levels of frustration people must have felt about the Khan debacle.

@Darth Dingbat

^^^^ ITA with all of the bolded. Honestly,why is JJ still talking? EDIT this is Rian's story now. There is a fine distinction of being a warrior ( no matter what side you are on or p.o.v. and being a TROPHY keeper) Keeping trophies is something that is habitual, and deep in the personality. Can Ren be redeemed from his core self?

Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig: I think the negativity just comes from the fact that different people see the whole "collecting the ashes of his enemies" thing differently. To some, collecting mementoes of people you've killed is a typical psycho serial killer trope, so it adds a different level of creepiness to a character that we've all interpreted in our own ways. We've seen him do terrible things, but Kylo has been surrounded by an air of ambiguity, he was layered, tormented and a pretty tragic figure all in all. It takes a while to adjusts my idea of Kylo Ren to this new "creepy villain" factoid.

Yes, this element of the story didn't end up in the film. But I'm personally a bit disappointed that JJ chose to tell about it at all, to imply that this is indeed the backstory of the ashes.

@Darth Dingbat

But its not a huge pyre of ashes, its small and not very deep, the clunk signifies that. I really think it was just something he kept from the moment he rose and became Kylo Ren..he's not someone who takes trophies of victims. There would be a lot more if that was the case.

Unless I see Kylo standing in front of an incinerator collecting ashes, or collecting ashes from burnt places, or even a housekeeping stormie re-filling the ash tray saying "The Tuanul killing is complete"....I won't be convinced.

I think it was just another idea for the "Jedi Killer" that didn't work out on screen so they abandoned it.... and decided to use the ash box in another scene instead.

Also, his foes could be anything.....JJ never specifically mentioned living beings. We're getting unnecessarily worried over a small piece of trivia.

Didnt JJ say he just used that part because it was more dramatic to slam it down like that than to have him just place it somewhere..it was only used to break up the scene.

Well I don't like this at all and it does worry me. Keeping your enemies ashes is a strange thing to do.

Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig: I think the negativity just comes from the fact that different people see the whole "collecting the ashes of his enemies" thing differently. To some, collecting mementoes of people you've killed is a typical psycho serial killer trope, so it adds a different level of creepiness to a character that we've all interpreted in our own ways. We've seen him do terrible things, but Kylo has been surrounded by an air of ambiguity, he was layered, tormented and a pretty tragic figure all in all. It takes a while to adjusts my idea of Kylo Ren to this new "creepy villain" factoid.

Yes, this element of the story didn't end up in the film. But I'm personally a bit disappointed that JJ chose to tell about it at all, to imply that this is indeed the backstory of the ashes.

@Darth Dingbat
But JJ didn't say "serial killer" or "psycho" or "he keeps the ashes of his victims." He said "enemies", as in enemies of the First Order, as in Star Wars. Kylo is the head interrogator, and he's still directly involved with the First Order. He isn't some good guy playing on the bad guy's side.

Honestly, I'm thinking about this in a bit of a different light I think... killing Han was Kylo's "last resort". You could see how sick of the pull to the Light he was. He was being ripped apart by it for years, and he likely tried to get rid of it many times. Keeping the ashes is also something that—to me—denotes a sad personal attachment, which is very Kylo Ren.

So the box of ashes can represent how deep Kylo being haunted by the past and his crimes, as I mention on my meta about Kylo the Phoenix, he always arrive with fires aka destruction , he is a torment person and placing his helmet on those ashes can mean how Kylo feel that he's the one who always brought this  Death and Destruction, the helmet or Kylo Ren persona was built from these ashes and that how Kylo come to term with it in his life until he heard and meet Rey + Han. That're moments where he began to shattered before pick himself up again

Airemyn wrote:Well I don't like this at all and it does worry me. Keeping your enemies ashes is a strange thing to do.

@Airemyn

Not if you are someone who is obsessed with being dark and being like vader, he keeps them as a reminder of what he wants to be if anything. He is not a psycho we all know this, come on guys. They are not victims, they are enemies.

panki wrote:Unless I see Kylo standing in front of an incinerator collecting ashes, or collecting ashes from burnt places, or even a housekeeping stormie re-filling the ash tray saying "The Tuanul killing is complete"....I won't be convinced.

I think it was just another idea for the "Jedi Killer" that didn't work out on screen so they abandoned it.... and decided to use the ash box in another scene instead.

Also, his foes could be anything.....JJ never specifically mentioned living beings. We're getting unnecessarily worried over a small piece of trivia.

@panki

True dat. Who knows, maybe those "enemies", even if they're people, aren't people he has killed. Maybe they're people who died 500 years ago or something. Who knows! We don't know the story yet...

But I'd be lying if I said I'm in a particularly "yay!" mood right now. Like I said before, it's not even the ashes that bother me so much; it's just that the rollercoaster is making me have some doubts about the storytelling at work here.


@FrolickingFizzgig: no, I didn't say he was a serial killer or a psycho either - just that keeping trophies of the dead is a psycho serial killer trope. Even if they're mementoes of honourable battles he's especially proud of, that's... a super creepy thing to keep in your room. But I can see that there are many different opinions about this on the forum, and that's fine.

You're right, the ashes could easily be a sad element of his backstory, as well. The trouble is that JJ just threw it out there, as a cool creepy detail, not as a psychological thing. We're not likely to ever get any further elucidation regarding those ashes. They just are.

You know tropes and editing tricks and so on are all really nice but there is an audience out there who does not give a sh... about such things. And I can see how some reading this will immediately jump to Criminal Minds. So yeah, I think that it's legitimate for some of us to be a bit frustrated right now with the way some of the people involved in the film are communicating. But ok, let's not go into a fight over this so that's the last thing I'll say about it. Just please respect the right of some of us to be a bit frustrated. We don't have to agree on everything.

I still see a sad face in that picture and it is kind of a beautiful picture when you ignore the backstory

Wonder what the next big reveal of JJ will be.

Gemini wrote:

Airemyn wrote:Well I don't like this at all and it does worry me. Keeping your enemies ashes is a strange thing to do.

@Airemyn

Not if you are someone who is obsessed with being dark and being like vader, he keeps them as a reminder of what he wants to be if anything. He is not a psycho we all know this, come on guys. They are not victims, they are enemies.

@Gemini

It's not just the keeping it part, it's the putting his helmet down on it part which concerns me. It's not just there in the corner, he has contact with it.

the REAL slip which happened is what Daisy did...she was not supposed to hint that her and Adam's characters are connected and finding the force together..it screams Reylo and she knew she royally f***** up, JJ knows its not a major plot point or important to any future arc.

Airemyn wrote:

Gemini wrote:

Airemyn wrote:Well I don't like this at all and it does worry me. Keeping your enemies ashes is a strange thing to do.

@Airemyn

Not if you are someone who is obsessed with being dark and being like vader, he keeps them as a reminder of what he wants to be if anything. He is not a psycho we all know this, come on guys. They are not victims, they are enemies.

@Gemini

It's not just the keeping it part, it's the putting his helmet down on it part which concerns me. It's not just there in the corner, he has contact with it.

@Airemyn

Slams his helmet into a pile of ashes? What does that signify to you? Someone who wants to keep that helmet or someone who wishes it would turn to ash.

He is never going to have that helmet again. The other characters have removed theirs and they are gone forever, thats it now with him, his is gone.

Gemini wrote:the REAL slip which happened is what Daisy did...she was not supposed to hint that her and Adam's characters are connected and finding the force together..it screams Reylo and she knew she royally fucked up, JJ knows its not a major plot point or important to any future arc.

@Gemini

The funny thing is that anyone paying attention already knows that they are connected. Apparently it takes Daisy accidentally slipping up to let people know that Kylo Ren and Rey had a moment during that duel? Really??

@Darth Dingbat.......ohh! You have given me an idea! And it might be something related to a thought I had a while back when listening to a review of the SW Rebels finale.....these are not new ashes at all!

The Rebels visit Malachor and the place looks like Pompeii, with ash and dead bodies everywhere....when they brought Malachor from EU to canon, they made it a place where the jedi and sith had a major battle....so there are ashes everywhere




This also happens to be the place Ezra picks up a lightsaber that is a cross guard just like the one Kylo uses....



Kylo might have visited Malachor........The ashes in Kylo's room could be the ashes of the dead jedi in Malachor....and it all adds more weight to a theory I am beginning to form about what Kylo wants to finish for Vader.

It's not about getting into a fight. I HATE negativity. I can't stand it. If there was actually something to be negative about, I would understand, but this is literally trivia in the vein of "Chewie tore off Unkar Plutt's arm in another version of the script" or "Maz originally appeared in more scenes" or "Snoke was female for a while".

The movie itself is all that matters, and the movie is FULL of redemption foreshadowing and nothing else. JJ wouldn't be talking so freely about this if it was an important plot-point or an important bit of Kylo characterization that will be elaborated upon in Episode VIII. If that was the case, the idea never would have been omitted in the first place. JJ didn't even mention it in the DVD features... seriously, it's just not important. He liked a shot from an unused scene and decided to use it after all. That's it.

“That’s always kind of fun, when you realize that something you’ve shot actually has a use you didn’t expect.”

This quote tells me they totally abandoned the idea. It's irrelevant. And honestly, I wouldn't care if we did have clarification about it in the movie. Big deal if Ren incinerates First Order enemies. Who cares if he keeps remains in his room? He overcompensates like crazy, as we already know very well. He's a very redeemable villain who has yet to develop.

panki wrote:@Darth Dingbat.......ohh! You have given me an idea! And it might be something related to a thought I had a while back when listening to a review of the SW Rebels finale.....these are not new ashes at all!

The Rebels visit Malachor and the place looks like Pompeii, with ash and dead bodies everywhere....when they brought Malachor from EU to canon, they made it a place where the jedi and sith had a major battle....so there are ashes everywhere




This also happens to be the place Ezra picks up a lightsaber that is a cross guard just like the one Kylo uses....



Kylo might have visited Malachor........The ashes in Kylo's room could be the ashes of the dead jedi in Malachor....and it all adds more weight to a theory I am beginning to form about what Kylo wants to finish for Vader.

@panki

Now that's interesting... I hope the reason is something like this. Good spot!

panki wrote:@Darth Dingbat.......ohh! You have given me an idea! And it might be something related to a thought I had a while back when listening to a review of the SW Rebels finale.....these are not new ashes at all!

The Rebels visit Malachor and the place looks like Pompeii, with ash and dead bodies everywhere....when they brought Malachor from EU to canon, they made it a place where the jedi and sith had a major battle....so there are ashes everywhere




This also happens to be the place Ezra picks up a lightsaber that is a cross guard just like the one Kylo uses....



Kylo might have visited Malachor........The ashes in Kylo's room could be the ashes of the dead jedi in Malachor....and it all adds more weight to a theory I am beginning to form about what Kylo wants to finish for Vader.

@panki

Ooohhh I like this! It would actually make A LOT of sense for the ashes to have something to do with ancient history.

(A thousand times more sense than keeping cremated enemies of the FO in his room, anyway.)

@Airemyn , @Darth Dingbat ....thanks It would make a lot of sense considering he is a relic hunter....this is just another relic to add to his Vader helmet shrine....it could also explain his unhappiness when Snoke ordered the Starkiller weapon to be fired...he has seen the aftermath of using this kind of weapon on Malachor....now the only thing left is to figure out the fate of the holocron Ezra took away with him.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Even if it was part of the story, it still would mean nothing to his future arc, if that was the case then him killing that old man before we see him start to unravel would mean that he is going to become a villain and not get a redemption.

panki wrote:@Airemyn , @Darth Dingbat ....thanks It would make a lot of sense considering he is a relic hunter....this is just another relic to add to his Vader helmet shrine....now the only thing left is to figure out the fate of the holocron Ezra took away with him.

@panki

And could Ezra be Benecio Del Toro?!

(I don't seriously believe that but who knows, I'm open to anything with him)

Gemini wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

Even if it was part of the story, it still would mean nothing to his future arc, if that was the case then him killing that old man before we see him start to unravel would mean that he is going to become a villain and not get a redemption.

@Gemini
Honestly, I can see Kylo keeping ashes more than I can see him killing people heartlessly and walking off. Ren is a very emotional character. No doubt he would have an emotional investment in this area as well.

And if you actually read the comments on that interview people are defending Kylo's right to redeem—in the words of Claudia Grey—his own self. The antis are being their usual selves: negative, negative, negative. They're such a minority, honestly. Ignore them.

Airemyn wrote:

panki wrote:@Airemyn , @Darth Dingbat ....thanks It would make a lot of sense considering he is a relic hunter....this is just another relic to add to his Vader helmet shrine....now the only thing left is to figure out the fate of the holocron Ezra took away with him.

@panki

And could Ezra be Benecio Del Toro?!

(I don't seriously believe that but who knows, I'm open to anything with him)

@Airemyn

I have a very strong feeling Benicio Del Toro might be playing Ezra.... he said in an interview he took the role so he could watch the movie with his daughter.... which little kid wouldn't be happy to know their Dad is playing a popular cartoon character in a movie?

There is already speculation that Donnie Yen might be Kanan (which I don't believe)....but it would be nice to see Ezra appear in the movies.....maybe he gave up being a jedi and turned dark....or maybe he gave it all up to become a bounty hunter?

I'd love a scene where Leia goes to him and asks him to help her find Kylo and bring him back (this is head canon )