Re: The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

by snufkin Sat 24 Jun 2017, 2:54 pm

Romance will be a part of it, but there's already enough hints to guess that it'll be a side product because they have a much larger destiny to fulfill in the Force.

Keep in mind that Kamp is an old school fanboy, so his point of reference is the OT. So in his mind, romance = Han and Leia screwball comedy type story where the "Will they or won't they" is the central question. The romance part with Han and Leia peaked in the 2nd movie because Ford wanted out/thought Han had served his purpose. So that type of story/characters are what he was thinking, which they wouldn't do. Just like how they weren't going to simply have a Vader 2.0 type character.

by reylo1992 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 2:54 pm

Agreewith @vaderito. I was worried after Rian's interview but I honestly think we shouldn't worry that much about the potentiality of a Reylo love story. Rian seemed quite upset that people misunderstood his comments and gave several rectifications. There was a guy wroteto him on twitter that he did the right thing by "giving no hope for romance to the to these desilusional women", to what rian simply answered..."Nope". I mean, I don't think that "desilusional women" referred specifically to people who ship Stormpilot or Finnrey.

As for love not being the center of the story, well it doesn't mean that there won't be any romance hints/sexual tension between Kylo and Rey. IMO I think it would be a good thing to let this relationship evolve slowly by focusing in TLJ on this special connection they share. Let's keep in mind that TLJ begins right after the end of TFA, which means that there's no time gap between both films. The TFA plot lasts barely 1-2 days which isn' much time to meet someone, gets to know him and fall in love. Then, I guess that TLJ will be longer because there must be enough time for recovery and training. However, the fact that TLJ begind right after TFA means that Kylo and Rey won't stay so long without not seeing each other and then I suppose that when they meet again I suppose that the action will not last long- barely 1-2days like TFA. The evolution of love stories require time and longing.A lot of people criticize Anidala and Hanleia for happening so fast in one movie but let's keep in mind that Anakin was already in love with Padme 10 years before they met again. Han and Leia finally admitted their love three years after they meet. Plus neither of these love stories had to overcome the fact that the protagonists work for opposite side and have a lot of things to clean up (Kylo killing his father; Rey disfiguring Kylo; etc...)

I believe that TLJ will focus on their connection showing their growing up bond quite similar to the one E.T. and Elliott share without having them kiss and/or Rey telling Ben she loves him like in the previous trilogies. However, hard for me to imagine Rey and Kylo remaining platonic beyond TLJ. We already know that Ben has feelings for her because his behavior toward her is anything but platonic. I think that Rey could fall for Ben once she would experience the feeling of lost and longing because Reylo mostly depends on how her feelings toward him will evolve. That's why I believe that TLJ could end dramatically with the two of them not only separated but with their connection severed so that Rey couldn't feel Ben at all any more. Let's keep in mind that providing that people who analyze the deleted scene "Finn will be fine" are right, Rey might have already experienced the fear to lose Ben who obviously came close to death at the end of TFA. So how would she react if she would not only be separated with Ben but the connection would be severed after their bond grew stronger and stronger during the movie?

by ISeeAnIsland Sat 24 Jun 2017, 6:46 pm

WhatGirl wrote:In TFA I do not think Kylo's feelings for Rey were platonic as even Pablo admitted that you could tell which gender he's attracted to by watching the movie. However, I really wish they'd kept in the "you have compassion for her" line. Also, I want to reiterate that I do think Reylo was planned by JJ and that was why the first movie was written and filmed the way it was. I don't think Reylos are delusional by any means or that we misread the film for noticing Kylo's fascination with Rey.

I feel however that there is going to be an inconsistency moving forward as Rian will not be picking up where JJ left off as far as romance goes between Kylo and Rey. I am not saying that there is NO ROMANCE in the trilogy at all since they have basically confirmed Finn/Rose. Again, this does not mean TFA was misinterpreted by us. It comes down to the change of directors and the story being taken into a different direction than we'd anticipated despite reading all of the signs correctly.

Kylo and Rey were not really supposed to be platonic soul-buddies or whatever, that is honestly an underwhelming way to conclude their story. It just doesn't make sense given the way they were cast. The two actors have an intense sexual chemistry that would make it weird - not wholly impossible, but definitely artificial and strange - for them to become eventually friends and nothing beyond that. But there has been undeniable controversy since TFA was released and I can see Kylo/Rey being made platonic - not friends per se, but allies within the Force.

I know that my post is all over the place and I'm sorry for that. It's complicated because I DO think we were right. I do think romantic Reylo was intended at one time to be canon. I still believe Rey and Kylo are going to be important to each other. She's going to want to redeem him after she learns of his backstory (and possibly her own backstory, if her family is somehow connected to the plot). I think she will succeed, and the question remains: why should Kylo give a damn about this random FS girl when his entire family has so far failed to save him from falling to the dark side?

Well, unlike his family, perhaps Rey herself somehow holds the key to destroying Snoke thereby making Ben's escape from his evil master possible. I believe that even if Ben had left SKB with Han, he would still not have been free. Unlike Finn who managed to get away simply by stealing a ship, I doubt it matters how much physical distance Ben places between himself and FO when Snoke is capable of sending thoughts directly into his mind. Rey showing Ben that there is actually hope of destroying Snoke and that she can help him finally be free from the evil whispers in his head could be the thing that brings them together as allies.

All of this should/normally would be the recipe for a central love story on a grand scale. Unfortunately though, I think we will be getting the sanitized version that is heavy on plot but scrubbed clean of any traces of romantic/sexual tension.

@WhatGirl

I wonder at what point in the TFA and TLJ development processes JJ made the decision to have Kylo kill Han. We all know that in earlier drafts, Luke showed up earlier, and Luke accidentally killed Han while Han was trying to save his son. Because my guess would be that decision pushed back the timeline for romantic Reylo.

I do think that it's still happening, but I think that TLJ is going to concentrate more on redeeming Kylo both as a person and in the audience's eyes. I am still very confident that there will be a romantic Reylo arc in IX. Is that as exciting as the epic romance that many of us were originally envisioning? No, but narratively, I understand the decision. For it to be embraced by the audience, Rian needs to get Kylo to the point where the audience is going to cheer for him to "kiss the girl".

by IoJovi Sat 24 Jun 2017, 6:54 pm

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
WhatGirl wrote:In TFA I do not think Kylo's feelings for Rey were platonic as even Pablo admitted that you could tell which gender he's attracted to by watching the movie. However, I really wish they'd kept in the "you have compassion for her" line. Also, I want to reiterate that I do think Reylo was planned by JJ and that was why the first movie was written and filmed the way it was. I don't think Reylos are delusional by any means or that we misread the film for noticing Kylo's fascination with Rey.

I feel however that there is going to be an inconsistency moving forward as Rian will not be picking up where JJ left off as far as romance goes between Kylo and Rey. I am not saying that there is NO ROMANCE in the trilogy at all since they have basically confirmed Finn/Rose. Again, this does not mean TFA was misinterpreted by us. It comes down to the change of directors and the story being taken into a different direction than we'd anticipated despite reading all of the signs correctly.

Kylo and Rey were not really supposed to be platonic soul-buddies or whatever, that is honestly an underwhelming way to conclude their story. It just doesn't make sense given the way they were cast. The two actors have an intense sexual chemistry that would make it weird - not wholly impossible, but definitely artificial and strange - for them to become eventually friends and nothing beyond that. But there has been undeniable controversy since TFA was released and I can see Kylo/Rey being made platonic - not friends per se, but allies within the Force.

I know that my post is all over the place and I'm sorry for that. It's complicated because I DO think we were right. I do think romantic Reylo was intended at one time to be canon. I still believe Rey and Kylo are going to be important to each other. She's going to want to redeem him after she learns of his backstory (and possibly her own backstory, if her family is somehow connected to the plot). I think she will succeed, and the question remains: why should Kylo give a damn about this random FS girl when his entire family has so far failed to save him from falling to the dark side?

Well, unlike his family, perhaps Rey herself somehow holds the key to destroying Snoke thereby making Ben's escape from his evil master possible. I believe that even if Ben had left SKB with Han, he would still not have been free. Unlike Finn who managed to get away simply by stealing a ship, I doubt it matters how much physical distance Ben places between himself and FO when Snoke is capable of sending thoughts directly into his mind. Rey showing Ben that there is actually hope of destroying Snoke and that she can help him finally be free from the evil whispers in his head could be the thing that brings them together as allies.

All of this should/normally would be the recipe for a central love story on a grand scale. Unfortunately though, I think we will be getting the sanitized version that is heavy on plot but scrubbed clean of any traces of romantic/sexual tension.
@WhatGirl

I wonder at what point in the TFA and TLJ development processes JJ made the decision to have Kylo kill Han. We all know that in earlier drafts, Luke showed up earlier, and Luke accidentally killed Han while Han was trying to save his son. Because my guess would be that decision pushed back the timeline for romantic Reylo.

I do think that it's still happening, but I think that TLJ is going to concentrate more on redeeming Kylo both as a person and in the audience's eyes. I am still very confident that there will be a romantic Reylo arc in IX. Is that as exciting as the epic romance that many of us were originally envisioning? No, but narratively, I understand the decision. For it to be embraced by the audience, Rian needs to get Kylo to the point where the audience is going to cheer for him to "kiss the girl".

@ISeeAnIsland

This right here. The audience needs to root first for Kylo to get the girl. Outside this forum, the GA isn't on his side yet. It's Rian's job to get them there.

Reylo has never been a question of if - it's a question of how. All of hints towards Reylo, whether they be tweets, DVD commentary or otherwise, have come after the TLJ script was finalized and most were done after shooting was completed. Therefore, nothing had changed. I have to remain open to the how and not get married to too many things on my wish list. Do I want a kiss in VIII? Oh heck yes. But if I don't get that and still end up with a compelling, believable love story (even if it's an understated slow burn) that tears at my heart strings I'll be happy.

by Guest Sat 24 Jun 2017, 7:26 pm

The Spuffy shipper in me wonders if they might go with a similar relationship between Rey and Kylo (without the sex part). The pair of them have sexual chemistry and could be shown to find each other physically attractive. But Rey ultimately won't be able to follow through on it either because she decides she can't love him in the way he wants or because she decides to devote herself to a higher purpose by becoming a Jedi or new Jedi whatever-they-call-themselves. Kylo/Ben could be redeemed and strive to make some amends for his past misdeeds. This leaves him free to go on and find love elsewhere later down the line and still have Rey be someone special to him.

I'll always be a Spuffy shipper but I did accept that Buffy made her choice. She wasn't ready to settle down with any guy and Spike had become someone special to her, even though she regarded their previous relationship as unhealthy. Rey could be in a similar frame of mind where she's finding belonging and embracing her calling in life but isn't ready to commit to Kylo/Ben. She is ten years his junior and the guy has some hefty baggage. Much depends on where Lucasfilm are planning to take the Skywalker saga after this trilogy. It might be enough for them to leave it open at the end of IX. The deep connection could be established with each regarding the other as a special person in their life but with Kylo/Ben giving Rey the time/space she needs to become who she wants to be.

by AceofWands Wed 28 Jun 2017, 7:04 pm

Seeing some other posts, and decided to write here, where it belongs.

I really don't know why so many people here started to think that there's a chance Reylo will not develop. I mean, what's the alternative? Finn/Rey? Could be, sure. But why then have JB come out and deny it? Why have their scenes void of any romantic tension? It doesn't make sense.

What would be the story then? That perhaps Rey and Kylo are halves of some super power that together can activate some great magic and will work together? Ok, that's interesting. It works.

But where's Rey's LI? I mean, she's the protagonist, this is space opera. Where's her LI? It's going to show up on the third movie? Is it Luke? Very Happy

Frankly, had Luke been a little younger Ruke could actually be a good story, but I don't think that's where they are going.

So they'll do Rey as this lonely bad***? Frankly, doesn't fit the genre, and doesn't fit the character.

A SW trilogy needs a love story, and so far, Rey and Kylo are each other's only options. Finn was a red herring. Poor character, I think in the same way he was a red herring for Rey Jedi, he was a red herring for Rey's LI.

And yeah, they could decide to leave this trilogy without a love story, but it would be super bland. Frankly, I can't see a producer approving that.

The only option would be if they decide to change the story midway. Actually, change the story in the third movie. It's not impossible.

TFA was such a mystery box that it got the Roshomon effect. (JJ, if you want to use Kurossawa, you're doing it wrong). Most people liked it, but different people got completely different movies. With TLJ, this cannot continue. At some point they have to debunk Reywalker, for instance. In the next movie they have to make Kylo and Rey's connection clearer. That's when the test will begin. But I still doubt they would do a 180 degree turn, unless TLJ is awful and has a very negative reaction. So... anyways, right now I see no alternative to Reylo and I believe it's planned. Can people change their minds? Sure. But I wonder what they'll give us instead.

by Kyla Ren Wed 28 Jun 2017, 7:36 pm

AceofWands wrote:Seeing some other posts, and decided to write here, where it belongs.

I really don't know why so many people here started to think that there's a chance Reylo will not develop. I mean, what's the alternative? Finn/Rey? Could be, sure. But why then have JB come out and deny it? Why have their scenes void of any romantic tension? It doesn't make sense.

What would be the story then? That perhaps Rey and Kylo are halves of some super power that together can activate some great magic and will work together? Ok, that's interesting. It works.

But where's Rey's LI? I mean, she's the protagonist, this is space opera. Where's her LI? It's going to show up on the third movie? Is it Luke? Frankly, had Luke been a little younger Ruke could actually be a good story, but I don't think that's where they are going.

So they'll do Rey as this lonely bad***? Frankly, doesn't fit the genre, and doesn't fit the character.

A SW trilogy needs a love story, and so far, Rey and Kylo are each other's only options. Finn was a red herring. Poor character, I think in the same way he was a red herring for Rey Jedi, he was a red herring for Rey's LI.

And yeah, they could decide to leave this trilogy without a love story, but it would be super bland. Frankly, I can't see a producer approving that.

The only option would be if they decide to change the story midway. Actually, change the story in the third movie. It's not impossible.

TFA was such a mystery box that it got the Roshomon effect. (JJ, if you want to use Kurossawa, you're doing it wrong). Most people liked it, but different people got completely different movies. With TLJ, this cannot continue. At some point they have to debunk Reywalker, for instance. In the next movie they have to make Kylo and Rey's connection clearer. That's when the test will begin. But I still doubt they would do a 180 degree turn, unless TLJ is awful and has a very negative reaction. So... anyways, right now I see no alternative to Reylo and I believe it's planned. Can people change their minds? Sure. But I wonder what they'll give us instead.

@AceofWands

This is what I wonder, too. As I said in another thread, if Reylo isn't the endgame, then what is? What will Rey and Kylo's relationship end up being? I really doubt that they're related in any way. And platonic friends/allies just doesn't cut it in a story like Star Wars. At least not in my opinion. And I do think that this trilogy needs romance. I mean, they could leave romance out completely, but I think it would really feel like something was missing from the story. Or they could just let FinnRose be the romance of the trilogy. But FinnRose, as cute and sweet as they may be together, probably won't have the epic feel that is needed to be the main romance of a story like this.

I just don't know what to think anymore. I still think there is definitely a chance for Reylo, and I know that people like Rian, Pablo, and Matt Martin who work for Lucasfilm can't and won't come right out and confirm or deny Reylo in the story. But I can't help but feel kind of disappointed by some of the things that have been said lately. I guess I would just rather have them say nothing at all, or instead have them say something like "You'll have to wait and see", rather than saying things about there not being a central romance, etc.

But in any case, I guess my point is that if they're not going to see Reylo through to the end and "finish what JJ started" with his Reylo set up in TFA, then I really don't know where they're going with Rey and Kylo's story arc and how they're going to handle their relationship going forward. And if we don't get Reylo, I think they will have missed a great opportunity for an epic romance.

by Guest Wed 28 Jun 2017, 7:46 pm

I can only speak for my own thought process on this, and I came to the conclusion a while ago (before the Vanity Fair article and related tweets etc) that attempting to see the ST only through a Reylo lens was as restrictive as those who say Rey *has* to be a Skywalker or else nothing makes sense. I'm not trying to upset anyone, and I still ship Reylo and hope for romance between them, but I can personally see all kinds of possibilities for the story going forward without Rey and Kylo becoming romantically involved. There are so many unknown factors such as what is happening with the Skywalker Saga movies after IX. Also, will Ep IX pick up where TLJ leaves off? The PT and OT spanned over years but we don't know if there will be a time jump in the ST. If the entire story arc takes place over weeks/months, is it realistic for Rey and Kylo to fall in love amidst everything else that's happening? Rey might have other things to do besides find herself a boyfriend, be it someone on the same side such as Finn or flirting with the enemy. I don't like the idea of all the scenarios I've imagined could happen, particularly something like Renperor, but I'm not going to rule it out just because I don't like it.

If Reylo does happen and it's full blown romance, I'll be happy. But if the story goes elsewhere, I'll probably live with it and maybe even like it if it's well written/acted etc. Much depends on that anyway because there are so many ways Reylo could go to hell in the wrong hands.

by Kyla Ren Wed 28 Jun 2017, 8:18 pm

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:I can only speak for my own thought process on this, and I came to the conclusion a while ago (before the Vanity Fair article and related tweets etc) that attempting to see the ST only through a Reylo lens was as restrictive as those who say Rey *has* to be a Skywalker or else nothing makes sense. I'm not trying to upset anyone, and I still ship Reylo and hope for romance between them, but I can personally see all kinds of possibilities for the story going forward without Rey and Kylo becoming romantically involved. There are so many unknown factors such as what is happening with the Skywalker Saga movies after IX. Also, will Ep IX pick up where TLJ leaves off? The PT and OT spanned over years but we don't know if there will be a time jump in the ST. If the entire story arc takes place over weeks/months, is it realistic for Rey and Kylo to fall in love amidst everything else that's happening? Rey might have other things to do besides find herself a boyfriend, be it someone on the same side such as Finn or flirting with the enemy. I don't like the idea of all the scenarios I've imagined could happen, particularly something like Renperor, but I'm not going to rule it out just because I don't like it.

If Reylo does happen and it's full blown romance, I'll be happy. But if the story goes elsewhere, I'll probably live with it and maybe even like it if it's well written/acted etc. Much depends on that anyway because there are so many ways Reylo could go to hell in the wrong hands.

@Mrs Ben Solo

That’s actually a very good point, and lately I’ve been thinking that I should watch TFA again but without my Reylo goggles. Although I admit that will probably be difficult. But in any case, there are many ways Reylo and the trilogy could go. It's just that they had such a great set up in TFA for an epic Reylo romance that it will seem like such a missed opportunity if they don’t follow through on it. And if they don’t go the romantic route, I just wonder what kind of relationship Rey and Kylo would have, because I really don’t think they’re related. I mean, who knows. They might be. Anything is possible. But I highly doubt it.

And no, it probably isn’t realistic for Rey and Kylo to fall in love if there isn’t a time jump. But who knows. Maybe there will be a time jump at some point. Or maybe they’ll decide that in an epic space opera like this, realism in romance isn’t that important. Or maybe they’ll have Kylo be redeemed by the end of the trilogy and kind of leave the whole question of romantic Reylo open ended and then pick up their romance in the next trilogy. I kind of think it’s unlikely that they would drag things out for that long, especially if they don’t do another trilogy right away, but who knows. Or, as I’ve seen a few people speculate, maybe they’ll split Episode IX into two parts, although I kind of doubt that, too. But in the end, I guess the possibilities are endless and we’re going to just have to wait and see, although the wait is killing me. Sad

Hopefully TLJ will give us a better idea of where things are headed.

by IoJovi Wed 28 Jun 2017, 8:27 pm

AceofWands wrote:Seeing some other posts, and decided to write here, where it belongs.

I really don't know why so many people here started to think that there's a chance Reylo will not develop. I mean, what's the alternative? Finn/Rey? Could be, sure. But why then have JB come out and deny it? Why have their scenes void of any romantic tension? It doesn't make sense.

What would be the story then? That perhaps Rey and Kylo are halves of some super power that together can activate some great magic and will work together? Ok, that's interesting. It works.

But where's Rey's LI? I mean, she's the protagonist, this is space opera. Where's her LI? It's going to show up on the third movie? Is it Luke? Frankly, had Luke been a little younger Ruke could actually be a good story, but I don't think that's where they are going.

So they'll do Rey as this lonely bad***? Frankly, doesn't fit the genre, and doesn't fit the character.

A SW trilogy needs a love story, and so far, Rey and Kylo are each other's only options. Finn was a red herring. Poor character, I think in the same way he was a red herring for Rey Jedi, he was a red herring for Rey's LI.

And yeah, they could decide to leave this trilogy without a love story, but it would be super bland. Frankly, I can't see a producer approving that.

The only option would be if they decide to change the story midway. Actually, change the story in the third movie. It's not impossible.

TFA was such a mystery box that it got the Roshomon effect. (JJ, if you want to use Kurossawa, you're doing it wrong). Most people liked it, but different people got completely different movies. With TLJ, this cannot continue. At some point they have to debunk Reywalker, for instance. In the next movie they have to make Kylo and Rey's connection clearer. That's when the test will begin. But I still doubt they would do a 180 degree turn, unless TLJ is awful and has a very negative reaction. So... anyways, right now I see no alternative to Reylo and I believe it's planned. Can people change their minds? Sure. But I wonder what they'll give us instead.

@AceofWands

I agree with everything you said here. I honestly can't think of a single scenario, in a Star Wars trilogy, where romantic love isn't a theme when it comes to a member of the Skywalker family. And in this case, there's only one now who's qualifies in the ST (sorry, Ruke fans!).

Once the Vanity Fair bs was clarified (in the best way possible by Rian Johnson I might add), I moved on. Same thing with the Matt Martin chaos from yesterday. It was actually quite telling once today's tweet arrived that he was clearly yanking everyone's chain. I personally still don't find it all that funny, but whatever. It doesn't change my take on where the story is going.

As far as the marketing goes, sure there's things that could be done better, but I don't see many people asking the big question of why Kylo is being hidden. We have his beautiful face, and not much else. Why exactly are they hiding him if he's only supposed to get more EVUILL?

by BastilaBey Wed 28 Jun 2017, 8:57 pm

We're close enough to TLJ now, where I'm just in a 'let's wait and see' place. If it's not romantic, it's not - nothing any of us can do about it, and I hope that no shippers complain to tptb, because we were never promised anything. TFA hinted at a mysterious connection, destinies intertwined, etc. Other material since, most notably the commentary and databank, verified this reading. But does it have to mean romance? I thought so in the early days, but if it doesn't, I'll be ok with whatever they give us if it's a well-told story. Rey and Kylo will be important to each other, that's all I really need to know.

I know it's a different story, but I watched Moana the other day and absolutely loved it. A compassionate heroine who confronts something 'beastly' with compassion and understanding, so that the beast turns back into a beauty and balance is restored. Obviously the dynamic is different - Moana is younger than Rey and the monster was in feminine form - but it was essentially a beauty and the beast relationship without romance. It's a popular trope, and it's possible in reylo. If Kylo gets his act together, and it's a part of Rey's journey just like Vader's was in Luke's, I'd like to think that most members of the reylo community would be happy with that.

by AceofWands Wed 28 Jun 2017, 9:32 pm

BastilaBey wrote: If Kylo gets his act together, and it's a part of Rey's journey just like Vader's was in Luke's, I'd like to think that most members of the reylo community would be happy with that.

@BastilaBey

I don't have a problem with that, in principle. It can be a powerful story. The problem is that then it goes off genre. The type of Space-Opera that SW is needs romance or it's empty. It's fairy tale.

I agree with @Mrs Ben Solo that sticking that it has to be Reylo and only Reylo is restrictive, but OTOH, I don't see a story without romantic Reylo. Had they been siblings, or cousins who spent time together when children, it could be a powerful story.

Maybe that's why the Reylo faction is as adamant as the Reywalker facton, because those are the only two stories that seem to make sense. Unless JJ, Kasdan and Cia had plans for a completely new story type, it just doesn't feel right.

So it's either Reywalker or Reylo, and no wonder these are the factions that mostly have a problem with each other. Now that Reywalker has been pretty much debunked, I don't see any other interesting story.

Because in the OT, the thing with Luke and Vader was that there was love between them. Had they been acquaintances, it would have been rather silly. So, again, if we want something as iconic as the OT, either Rey and Kylo are related, or they have a love story.

by IoJovi Wed 28 Jun 2017, 9:42 pm

AceofWands wrote:
BastilaBey wrote: If Kylo gets his act together, and it's a part of Rey's journey just like Vader's was in Luke's, I'd like to think that most members of the reylo community would be happy with that.
@BastilaBey

I don't have a problem with that, in principle. It can be a powerful story. The problem is that then it goes off genre. The type of Space-Opera that SW is needs romance or it's empty. It's fairy tale.

I agree with @Mrs Ben Solo that sticking that it has to be Reylo and only Reylo is restrictive, but OTOH, I don't see a story without romantic Reylo. Had they been siblings, or cousins who spent time together when children, it could be a powerful story.

Maybe that's why the Reylo faction is as adamant as the Reywalker facton, because those are the only two stories that seem to make sense. Unless JJ, Kasdan and Cia had plans for a completely new story type, it just doesn't feel right.

So it's either Reywalker or Reylo, and no wonder these are the factions that mostly have a problem with each other. Now that Reywalker has been pretty much debunked, I don't see any other interesting story.

Because in the OT, the thing with Luke and Vader was that there was love between them. Had they been acquaintances, it would have been rather silly. So, again, if we want something as iconic as the OT, either Rey and Kylo are related, or they have a love story.

@AceofWands

Nail. Head.

I've never faulted the Reywalkers one iota for wondering how Rey fits into a story that revolves around the Skywalker family - family being a key word here. It's identical to the same way I see Reylo, with very few differences. Still, I've had it mansplained before to me that Star Wars is not a soap opera, and I find that laughable coming from someone that thinks it's completely feasible for Luke to have a daughter come out of the wood work he never knew about or abandoned when she was young. Laughing

But seriously, what is a soap opera? It's a generational saga that revolves around one or more core families. And how do those families continue? That's right - romance.

So yes you're absolutely right, there's really only two ways this saga can play out. If Rey's not related, the other one is pretty much a given.

by **Moonlight13** Wed 28 Jun 2017, 9:51 pm

The only way I see this trilogy ending without Rey being related to Luke or Leia and without romance is with the Skywalker lineage coming to an end and I don't think Disney would spend so much money buying Star Wars to do that. Nope

by BastilaBey Wed 28 Jun 2017, 9:52 pm

AceofWands wrote:
BastilaBey wrote: If Kylo gets his act together, and it's a part of Rey's journey just like Vader's was in Luke's, I'd like to think that most members of the reylo community would be happy with that.
@BastilaBey

I don't have a problem with that, in principle. It can be a powerful story. The problem is that then it goes off genre. The type of Space-Opera that SW is needs romance or it's empty. It's fairy tale.

I agree with @Mrs Ben Solo that sticking that it has to be Reylo and only Reylo is restrictive, but OTOH, I don't see a story without romantic Reylo. Had they been siblings, or cousins who spent time together when children, it could be a powerful story.

Maybe that's why the Reylo faction is as adamant as the Reywalker facton, because those are the only two stories that seem to make sense. Unless JJ, Kasdan and Cia had plans for a completely new story type, it just doesn't feel right.

So it's either Reywalker or Reylo, and no wonder these are the factions that mostly have a problem with each other. Now that Reywalker has been pretty much debunked, I don't see any other interesting story.

Because in the OT, the thing with Luke and Vader was that there was love between them. Had they been acquaintances, it would have been rather silly. So, again, if we want something as iconic as the OT, either Rey and Kylo are related, or they have a love story.

@AceofWands

All I'm saying is that I want to keep an open mind and not act as if I know the story better than Lucasfilm employees. And i'm not saying that's what others here are doing, but let's be real - we see entitlement across the fandom in all guises. They don't owe us anything beyond an entertaining movie.

Thanks to the VF stuff (and I know not everyone feels this way, but I do and am not shoving it down anyone's throat or trying to be negative nancy), my expectations for romance are pretty low at this point. If these two characters can reach a point of understanding and acceptance that aids both of their journeys, I'll be very happy.

by Helix Wed 28 Jun 2017, 10:50 pm

To be as cynical as possible on the flip side; they don't really care specifically what we ( or any other part of the fandom ) think is a good story, it's what they think is a good story and make. What will safely bring in $$$. They don't owe us what we specifically think is a good story, they'll provide what they want and think is the right move for the story since they hold the reins. FinnRose could be that epic romance, we don't know enough of the story to say. In concept in may not have the same punch as Reylo, but it could deliver. Both could still happen, that's just my most cynical, to the jugular look on it.

That's just me being brutally honest on the workings, not exactly what I expect.

by Saracene Wed 28 Jun 2017, 11:07 pm

I don’t necessarily think that Rey *needs* to have a romance, or that a Skywalker character must be involved in a romance, in order for this to be a proper SW film. Luke was the main protagonist of the OT and he didn’t have a romantic interest, the romance was left to the secondary characters (and Leia only became a last-minute Skywalker). Also, it’s a tad presumptuous IMO to say that Finn and Rose are a sweet-cute romance when we haven’t seen a single frame of their relationship yet. Fact is, this trilogy has already dropped some of the main components of the series, like the idea that the main protagonist has to be a Skywalker. There’s really no reason why it can’t drop other elements as well.

Also, I largely agree with @Mrs Ben Solo about not looking at this series through the Reylo-tinted glasses. I’ve rewatched TFA recently, and while Rey and Kylo’s scenes are by far the most compelling part of the movie, both characters have lots more happening than interactions with each other, and none of them are emotional centres of each other’s stories. There’s a good reason why so many people fail to see their dynamic as truly significant just from that one film. I do think that after this introductory phase, their relationship will get much more important, but, as an example, I think that Rey’s relationship with Luke will be no less important.

All of that said, I do think that there will be a romantic endgame, just probably not a big sweeping epic romance.

by reylo1992 Wed 28 Jun 2017, 11:47 pm

The Vanity Fair interview was pretty confusing but still I don't think that Rian meant that romantic Reylo isn't supposed to happen at somepoint of the ST if not in TLJ. It would be a big contradiction with what he said no later than last January as the film was already shot:

Name three non-Star Wars films you watched in preparation.

Twelve O’Clock High was a big touchstone, for the feel and look of the aerial combat as well as the dynamic between the pilots. Three Outlaw Samurai for the feel of the sword-fighting, and the general sense of pulpy fun. And To Catch A Thief was a great film to rewatch, for the romantic scale and grandeur.

I mean, if he really did use To Catch a Thief as film inspiration for the romantic scale, no way he didn't insert any sexual tension i nTLJ. And we know that Kylo and Rey's interactions are full of sexual tension so Wink

I wouldn't be disappointed if their love story would develop in a different way than Anidala and Hanleia. To be honest, I am no big fan of Han and Leia's love story with all respect due to Harrison and Carrie's acting. I never got the feeling that these two were soulmates despite love-hating each other. I mean, I find their arguments amusing but that's all what it is to me. Even their most iconic scenes - the two kiss scenes in ESB - don't give me any big feeling. I found their scenes as heartbroken couple and parents in TFA much more moving and interesting to watch.I don't know for wou guys but I personally prefer romantic scenes with sexual tension where you believe that some kiss is gonna happen here but it doesn't (or if it does it happens after some big feeling of lost and longing). That's problably why like so much Kylo and Rey's interactions in TFA so I am eagerto see them falling in each other's arms that easily. So I completely run for (very) slow-burning romance with focus primarily on the strange Force connection in TLJ and then wait and see for Episode 9.

by Kyla Ren Thu 29 Jun 2017, 2:56 am

reylo1992 wrote:The Vanity Fair interview was pretty confusing but still I don't think that Rian meant that romantic Reylo isn't supposed to happen at somepoint of the ST if not in TLJ. It would be a big contradiction with what he said no later than last January as the film was already shot:

Name three non-Star Wars films you watched in preparation.

Twelve O’Clock High was a big touchstone, for the feel and look of the aerial combat as well as the dynamic between the pilots. Three Outlaw Samurai for the feel of the sword-fighting, and the general sense of pulpy fun. And To Catch A Thief was a great film to rewatch, for the romantic scale and grandeur.

I mean, if he really did use To Catch a Thief as film inspiration for the romantic scale, no way he didn't insert any sexual tension i nTLJ. And we know that Kylo and Rey's interactions are full of sexual tension so

I wouldn't be disappointed if their love story would develop in a different way than Anidala and Hanleia. To be honest, I am no big fan of Han and Leia's love story with all respect due to Harrison and Carrie's acting. I never got the feeling that these two were soulmates despite love-hating each other. I mean, I find their arguments amusing but that's all what it is to me. Even their most iconic scenes - the two kiss scenes in ESB - don't give me any big feeling. I found their scenes as heartbroken couple and parents in TFA much more moving and interesting to watch.I don't know for wou guys but I personally prefer romantic scenes with sexual tension where you believe that some kiss is gonna happen here but it doesn't (or if it does it happens after some big feeling of lost and longing). That's problably why like so much Kylo and Rey's interactions in TFA so I am eagerto see them falling in each other's arms that easily. So I completely run for (very) slow-burning romance with focus primarily on the strange Force connection in TLJ and then wait and see for Episode 9.

@reylo1992

I'm definitely not a fan of the Anidala romance. The most memorable thing about it for me was probably the whole "I hate sand" conversation. Neutral

And I totally agree about the Han/Leia romance. I was never really a big fan of it. It just seemed like endless bickering and snarking at each other.

by SanghaRen Thu 29 Jun 2017, 4:48 am

@reylo1992

It all depends on your definition for soulmates. I know in RL people who behave like Han and Leia and I cannot imagine them having such an attachment to anyone else. I would not want to be in such a relationship because with my lack of self-confidence I'd be constantly down the depression hole, but it works for some people. I personally enjoy Han and Leia's relationship and still see it as one of the biggest cinema romances in spite of not really identifying with it and I would label them soulmates. But hey, it's all up to personal taste.

My own definition of soulmates goes beyond romance. Actually I have never met a romantic soulmate in my life. However, I have a couple of friends that I consider soulmates. I even consider my cat a soulmate - yes, it sounds crazy but we somehow tick the same way in spite of being 2 different species and I could tell you that we have a double Sun-Mercury connection in synastry which would explain, if you believe in astrology, why we understand each other and are like the two pieces of the same coin -> Mercury is the ruler of the Gemini sign. You can laugh, if you want, I don't mind Smile

Just last week I was lebeled "peculiar" by a colleague basically because I like SW and I have fun trying to make vegan Nutella or cheese myself. She did add "peculiar in a positive way". Good that I did not speak about Kylo or what I think about humans in general, I'd probably be labeled "peculiar" to my face and "scary" behind my back Very Happy

by Darth Dingbat Thu 29 Jun 2017, 6:14 am

Okay, here's what I think. I don't mean to hijack this thread by insisting that Reylo is romantic and will be romantic, period, but I just need to say this. We know that Rey and Kylo have a "mysterious connection", and yes, a mysterious connection could play out in a number of ways, many of them platonic.

But I still maintain that those moments of "mysterious connection" in TFA came laden with romantic tropes and subtext. Not only was there a "mysterious connection" established, but those very moments were created in a specific way. If that wasn't intentional, that was a peculiar screw-up. Nobody kissed or said "I love you", but the building blocks of romance are much more than that. You begin to build a romance long before it becomes a romance.

Creators generally know what they're doing. Yesterday we were talking about Zootopia in the other thread. I watched the film the other day, and had this weird feeling all the time that I was watching a romantic comedy. But the characters were a bunny and a fox! I thought I was probably imagining things (familiar feeling, that). Well, then I read interviews with the creators and turned out that - surprise, surprise - I wasn't imagining things after all. They were saying that the potential romance was intentionally left open-ended and in a sequel it would have to be addressed whether Nick and Judy became a couple or not. And there was even a deleted scene with a typical romcom mix-up where Nick was mistaken for Judy's boyfriend and suggestive awkwardness ensues.

And this was about a bunny and a fox! In an animated film for children! A romance dynamic wasn't required, let alone the automatic assumption from the viewer; a platonic friendship would have fit the story just fine. But the film was structured like a classic romantic comedy, and this was intentional.

Now, we have no idea what's going at Lucasfilm and how this story is ultimately going to go, but whatever happens, whatever has been changed, whatever the endgame - the things we saw were there.

So, if it should turn out that romantic Reylo isn't happening, in any form (even the most understated), for me it would become more of a matter of detached curiosity. If things have been changed mid-story, how will they pull it off without falling flat? If romantic Reylo was never intended, what exactly were they doing in TFA?

I'm not ashamed to say that I would find it hard to maintain interest in a totally non-romantic Reylo dynamic. Luckily there would still be other elements and plots in these films to grab my attention.

by AceofWands Thu 29 Jun 2017, 6:35 am

BastilaBey wrote:
All I'm saying is that I want to keep an open mind and not act as if I know the story better than Lucasfilm employees. And i'm not saying that's what others here are doing, but let's be real - we see entitlement across the fandom in all guises. They don't owe us anything beyond an entertaining movie.

Thanks to the VF stuff (and I know not everyone feels this way, but I do and am not shoving it down anyone's throat or trying to be negative nancy), my expectations for romance are pretty low at this point. If these two characters can reach a point of understanding and acceptance that aids both of their journeys, I'll be very happy.

@BastilaBey

That's interesting, on the entitlement. I don't hang out on Tumblr, and I haven't been around here much lately, but I frankly don't really understand or see what you are talking about. I see people with expectations and with guesses and predictions. Smart people by the way, who understand storytelling and SW and who back up their guesses, wishes and predictions with solid arguments.

I agree that LF needs a good movie or else they'll damage their brand. They also need to stick to the genre, or, again, they'll damage their brand. I just don't see the possibility of a good movie without Reylated or some form of Reylo, and the ST needs romance. If you think about the stories on which SW is based, from Edgar Rice Burroughs, to Flash Gordon TV serials, there's romance. Asimov's amazing Foundation (which has many similarities to SW) doesn't have a lot of romance, but it still has it. Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress has romance. I'd be genuinely curious on how they'd have a good story and stick to the genre without romance in the ST. FinnRey doesn't have the elements for Epic Romance cause they are the everyman/woman type.

As to the VF interview, I respect your opinion, however, RJ just said that it was not a central piece, and not equivalent to a Han and Leia romance. One day after the interview came out he was already clarifying that he was talking specifically a Han/Leia romance. He also says in the interview "we'll have to see", which basically is the complete opposite of debunking. And, finally, he says something like that he would have liked a sweeping romance, but he could not. Which characters are not ready for a sweeping romance yet, cause they still have character development to go through?

I frankly don't understand the doom and gloom after VF, when it was clearly a journalist doing a poor job, and which lead to a bunch of explanations that clarified a lot of things.

The only thing that I know I'm entitled to, and I really am, is to be respected as a fan regardless of my theory and regardless of my opinions. That's something we all need to fight for together. 90% of what most of us want is to be respected as fans, and Reylo happening is not the key to respect, sorry. I think perhaps that's what's getting on the entitlement, and it's a real need, but some people are focusing on Reylo, when the issue is the respect. Yes, we are fans and deserve to be respected, and jerks like Kemp should not make fun of us. Let's stick for that together.

Regardless if romantic Reylo happens or not (and, again, I'm super curious about what the story is then), our vision and our theory is valid, stems from the movie, and is a valid way of fans to engage with the ST.

by Darth_Awakened Thu 29 Jun 2017, 6:53 am

Frankly enough, since the VF gate until today - I really didn't see much of the entetilement on the level of "I want Reylo or I'll die" or "No Reylo - hence LF s...s".
Majority of us arejust trying to speculate around without much drama.

by AceofWands Thu 29 Jun 2017, 6:57 am

Darth Dingbat wrote:Okay, here's what I think. I don't mean to hijack this thread by insisting that Reylo is romantic and will be romantic, period, but I just need to say this. We know that Rey and Kylo have a "mysterious connection", and yes, a mysterious connection could play out in a number of ways, many of them platonic.

But I still maintain that those moments of "mysterious connection" in TFA came laden with romantic tropes and subtext. Not only was there a "mysterious connection" established, but those very moments were created in a specific way. If that wasn't intentional, that was a peculiar screw-up. Nobody kissed or said "I love you", but the building blocks of romance are much more than that. You begin to build a romance long before it becomes a romance.

Now, we have no idea what's going at Lucasfilm and how this story is ultimately going to go, but whatever happens, whatever has been changed, whatever the endgame - the things we saw were there.

So, if it should turn out that romantic Reylo isn't happening, in any form (even the most understated), for me it would become more of a matter of detached curiosity. If things have been changed mid-story, how will they pull it off without falling flat? If romantic Reylo was never intended, what exactly were they doing in TFA?

I'm not ashamed to say that I would find it hard to maintain interest in a totally non-romantic Reylo dynamic. Luckily there would still be other elements and plots in these films to grab my attention.

@Darth Dingbat

Hear, hear. I got in this thread just to brainstorm on what non romantic Reylo would be, and the only satisfying result is Rey Solo or Reywalker if she had met her cousin when young. Considering Rey Solo and Reywalker have been debunked... I don't see what else is left for the ST.

I haven't seen a single satisfying plot suggestion for the ST without Reylo. And, again, the stuff on TFA was there for everyone to see.

What I frankly think is happening to everyone who started, out of the blue, to doubt romantic Reylo, is some form of emotional fear of being deceived. Like that it's too good to be true feeling.

Or perhaps it's just being gaslighted so much that people start to believe they are indeed crazy. I don't know.

If Reylo doesn't happen it will be because of a mismatch between creative visions and will certainly result in a poor final product.

And I have an odd confession to make: I don't ship Reylo. Shocked

Really. I couldn't get into Rey, so I can't identify with Rey and imagine Reylo. I identify with Kylo, but then I can't really get what he sees in her yet (cause it's a mystery). But I think this is the way the story was set up and it will lead to an interesting story. That's why I'm here. That's also why I am a lot more confident on it.

And finally, most importantly, everything we saw was there, and was there on purpose.

by Darth Dingbat Thu 29 Jun 2017, 7:04 am

Darth_Awakened wrote:Frankly enough, since the VF gate until today - I really didn't see much of the entetilement on the level of "I want Reylo or I'll die" or "No Reylo - hence LF s...s".
Majority of us arejust trying to speculate around without much drama.

@Darth_Awakened

If I don't get Reylo, I'm going to bake a chocolate-raspberry cake that says "Lucasfilm sucks". And I'm going to eat it passive-aggressively.

And if I get Reylo, I'm going to bake a chocolate-raspberry cake that says "I H-beating

KK & RJ & JJ" (I'd include the entire cast and crew but I don't think there's enough room on an average-sized chocolate-raspberry cake).

I think this is a positive arrangement as I'm going to get a chocolate-raspberry cake either way Razz

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