The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Night Huntress wrote:Good Morning everyone!

I can't believe that "scum-interview" is still a thing. I'll call it "ScumGate" now.
I feel bad for doubting Daisy- I don't believe she would use this word in an interview...
Not sure it's completely fake but maybe very badly translated and wrongly interpreted by the author who wrote it down.

Of course Rey had to turn Kylo's offer down and can't be with him like he is now- duh...

@Night Huntress


Honestly I don't know what to believe, but one thing is certain: this fandom never gets boring, everyday is a surprise  

One thing that I haven't really seen discussed is Rose's (throwaway?) line that she'd already had to taze three people that day who were trying to use the same escape pod as Finn to escape.

Maybe it doesn't matter by the end of TLJ because the Resistance's numbers are so decimated, but that line would suggest that not everyone who was part of the Resistance was so committed that they wanted to die for the cause...and/or maybe they questioned Resistance leadership?

ISeeAnIsland wrote:One thing that I haven't really seen discussed is Rose's (throwaway?) line that she'd already had to taze three people that day who were trying to use the same escape pod as Finn to escape.

Maybe it doesn't matter by the end of TLJ because the Resistance's numbers are so decimated, but that line would suggest that not everyone who was part of the Resistance was so committed that they wanted to die for the cause...and/or maybe they questioned Resistance leadership?

@ISeeAnIsland

Yes! I wondered about that line too! I thought the Resistance were an voluntary army - shouldn't they be free to go at anytime? I remember in "Lost Stars" from Claudia Grey that in the Rebellion they never forced anyone to stay.
Can you desert from an voluntary army? I'm confused.

Night Huntress wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:One thing that I haven't really seen discussed is Rose's (throwaway?) line that she'd already had to taze three people that day who were trying to use the same escape pod as Finn to escape.

Maybe it doesn't matter by the end of TLJ because the Resistance's numbers are so decimated, but that line would suggest that not everyone who was part of the Resistance was so committed that they wanted to die for the cause...and/or maybe they questioned Resistance leadership?

@ISeeAnIsland

Yes! I wondered about that line too! I thought the Resistance were an voluntary army - shouldn't they be free to go at anytime? I remember in "Lost Stars" from Claudia Grey that in the Rebellion they never forced anyone to stay.
Can you desert from an voluntary army? I'm confused.

@Night Huntress

I would assume taking off with supplies/ a functional escape pod that could be used for other people in the middle of the battle is a bit different than than say when Han was planning to leave during ESB.

I mean, they don't force you to stay, but if you are there you are likely on a work schedule And have to take orders.  And they aren't going to let you take off with a ship or anything.

Moonjump05 wrote:
@Night Huntress

I would assume taking off with supplies/ a functional escape pod that could be used for other people in the middle of the battle is a bit different than than say when Han was planning to leave during ESB.

I mean, they don't force you to stay, but if you are there you are likely on a work schedule And have to take orders.  And they aren't going to let you take off with a ship or anything.

@Moonjump05

yeah, I think you're right.  

But I was wondering about that escape pod issue anyway... what did Finn and the other three Resistance guys wanted to achieve by fleeing with an escape pod? There weren't any habitable systems nearby that we know of and with the FO right behind the Raddus - who were most likely to pick them up???

Well, they were a few things in this context I didn't get. The FO had this advanced locating technology...I mean they traced the Resistance through hyperspace. But if DJ wouldn't have betrayed Finn & Rose and told them about the transporters escaping to Crait they would have missed that???? Really??? I mean I could believe they would've missed an single escape pod but twenty or something transporters? All flying into the same direction?
I know it's fantasy/fiction and SW never really bothered much with physics and stuff but that's just weird.

Ummm just found this  

I would like this issue to conclude / to be clear soon,  so we can move on. I hate the confusing information.

I must add, even if the story is director / writer decision, I would find it sad if Daisy doesn't really support the idea of Reylo as a couple soon or later.

Edited:

Update from a Chinese fan

lauvamp wrote:Ummm just found this  

I would like this issue to conclude / to be clear soon,  so we can move on. I hate the confusing information.

I must add, even if the story is director / writer decision, I would find it sad if Daisy doesn't really support the idea of Reylo as a couple soon or later.

Edited:

Update from a Chinese fan

@lauvamp

This whole #Chinagate thing sounds like a suspense mystery

I do not want to believe that Chinese media can just simply forge Daisy's statement. But they did add words in Daisy's statement on Poe/Rey on the website which Daisy did not say at all in the video, and the video did not seem to be edited at all? Hmm...

Night Huntress wrote:

Moonjump05 wrote:
@Night Huntress

I would assume taking off with supplies/ a functional escape pod that could be used for other people in the middle of the battle is a bit different than than say when Han was planning to leave during ESB.

I mean, they don't force you to stay, but if you are there you are likely on a work schedule And have to take orders.  And they aren't going to let you take off with a ship or anything.

@Moonjump05

yeah, I think you're right.  

But I was wondering about that escape pod issue anyway... what did Finn and the other three Resistance guys wanted to achieve by fleeing with an escape pod? There weren't any habitable systems nearby that we know of and with the FO right behind the Raddus - who were most likely to pick them up???

Well, they were a few things in this context I didn't get. The FO had this advanced locating technology...I mean they traced the Resistance through hyperspace. But if DJ wouldn't have betrayed Finn & Rose and told them about the transporters escaping to Crait they would have missed that???? Really??? I mean I could believe they would've missed an single escape pod but twenty or something transporters? All flying into the same direction?
I know it's fantasy/fiction and SW never really bothered much with physics and stuff but that's just weird.

@Night Huntress

The transports were neither shielded nor armed. I think the FO wasn’t expecting that the Resistance would abandon their strongest warship and try to use them to escape. It was an extremly risky plan on Holdo’s part but the FO wasn’t aware that the nearby planet was an old Rebelion base. Only after the FO found out about the plan they ran a decloaking skan to confirm what they were told by DJ.

On another note: OT present Rebels as the good guys which is understandable because it’s a simple narrative about good vs evil.
Rogue One changed my perspective on the Rebelion (and TLJ on the Resistance). Cassian makes a good exapamle of this. He commited to the Rebelion and was forced in a way to do things he probably never thought he would do in normal life. The Rebelion has a military structure, that suggests that people who wanted a way out were treated as traitors.
It’s curious what the Resistance did with those people who wanted to escape (because they were probably frightened of Poe’s disrespect of human life).

@Darth_marshmallow: thx for clarifying

I was thinking- did the resistance already knew by the end of TLJ that Snoke is dead and Kylo isn't under his command but the new SL ?
I personally don't think so- and I would love to see how they find out... and if Rey will tell them at least a part of what happened in the throne room.

Maybe that's a topic for the "predictions for IX" threat ? I don't know.

Things that got me "hmmmm" after TLJ and made me think of possible political plotlines for IX:

1) Rose incapacitating people who were trying to escape.
2) The allies completely ignoring Leia's distress signal.

It shows that even on the side of the "good guys", people are getting fed up with the war and the pointless conflict. I wonder if some sort of insurgency from a third party (the ones who are 100% done with both sides) would be an interesting option.

Piper Maru wrote:Things that got me "hmmmm" after TLJ and made me think of possible political plotlines for IX:

1) Rose incapacitating people who were trying to escape.
2) The allies completely ignoring Leia's distress signal.

It shows that even on the side of the "good guys", people are getting fed up with the war and the pointless conflict. I wonder if some sort of insurgency from a third party (the ones who are 100% done with both sides) would be an interesting option.

@Piper Maru

Especially having in mind Finn's line "people believe in Leia"

Re: #China/Scum/KelloggGate (my only contribution)

Sorry, this just reminds me of the cast on the Graham Norton show in December, when John said something, and Daisy mentioning how the media is just going to misinterpret it and blow it up in the news. It is basically just that.

I think we confuse double/triple-analysing content in films with content in real life. Films are thought through and structured. People have read and re-read scripts countless times to make sure what they relay into the world is exactly what they want. It is meant to be dissected, perhaps sometimes not for the best. On the other hand, things that are said in interviews are perhaps mislead or impromptu. Sometimes, they mean exactly what they say, sometimes they don't, especially when this gate is pretty much a game of Chinese whispers (lol). It shouldn't be taken as material to be dissected. I know we're excited for new stuff and the 2 years wait is almost intolerable, but this is just meant to be fun guessing and keeping the fandom alive. There will be good news and bad news, and they will mean pretty much nothing to IX. We've been through this in anticipation for TLJ. We'll make it out alive in 2019!

I don’t believe Daisy’s China quotes. Either she never said them or she said something like, “They’re not a couple at the end of TLJ,” and it was spun. Before TLJ she seemed intrigued by the idea of “Reylo,” even liking fan art, and teasing it in that video with Josh. Then she talks about how intensely sad and lonely Rey and Kylo are sounding very sympathetic. She wouldn’t call Kylo scum, lol. TLJ made Reylo mainstream. Every day people are talking about it. She wouldn’t say that she never wants them to be a couple, but whatever Chinese media wants people to think...

Someone translated the interview on tumblr. Here's the significant parts:

Mtime: A lot of fans support Rey and Kylo Ren becoming a couple, Daisy do you feel them as a pair makes sense?

Daisy: No, I don’t, it’s that simple. The feeling The Last Jedi gave me is rather different. Viewer’s view on Kylo Ren will change dramatically. Rey thinks Kylo wants to be forgiven for his crimes, she can understand him. I’m happy that the two of them can reach some level of understanding but at the end Kylo is scum, so I feel…

Mark: Hahahaha, no, he’s just misunderstood, he misses his father.

Daisy: (impersonating Mark’s) He’s so lonely. Anyway, I can understand why fans will think this way, but I don’t think they will become a couple.

I have a difficult time believing this is true (at least word for word) for the fact that the phrasing is very harsh and somewhat definitive. If Daisy feels like Kylo and Rey wouldn't make a good couple yet because of Kylo's development that's one thing, but for her to say that Reylo doesn't make sense in its entirety and that she doesn't think there's a possibility of it happening is so far away from what TLJ showed it's amazing.

shii405 wrote:

MyOnlyHope wrote:Makino and Domyouji are like a freaking drug.

@MyOnlyHope

And so does Reylo   Can't believe how much Kylo reminds me of Domyoji, lol. Please help me refresh my memory, did Domyoji ever went something like "Renperor"? Frustrated and angry that Makino rejected her in the beginning? And, when was that?

I am trying to break down the structure of Kylo's inner emotion development and his relationship development stages with Rey, but I can only find comparison in Dragonball's Vegeta, in which, Vegeta was really not easy to turn, and he was still very much a cruel, evil ally-cum-enemy for Goku and friends, even after he had a baby with Bulma. But I am trying to find the romantic counterpart for this. So I wish I remember Domyoji's stages of character change in Hanadan.

I guess I am just trying to find justification of why it had to go the "Renperor" way and how will this turn out usually, in other stories with similar characters.

@shii405

shii405 wrote:

MyOnlyHope wrote:Makino and Domyouji are like a freaking drug.

@MyOnlyHope

And so does Reylo   Can't believe how much Kylo reminds me of Domyoji, lol. Please help me refresh my memory, did Domyoji ever went something like "Renperor" Frustrated and angry that Makino rejected her in the beginning? And, when was that?

I am trying to break down the structure of Kylo's inner emotion development and his relationship development stages with Rey, but I can only find comparison in Dragonball's Vegeta, in which, Vegeta was really not easy to turn, and he was still very much a cruel, evil ally-cum-enemy for Goku and friends, even after he had a baby with Bulma. But I am trying to find the romantic counterpart for this. So I wish I remember Domyoji's stages of character change in Hanadan.

I guess I am just trying to find justification of why it had to go the "Renperor" way and how will this turn out usually, in other stories with similar characters.

@shii405
Oh God yes. He begins the series as one of the most entitled, a****** -- albeit pathetic, juvenile, foolish, and incredibly submissive -- characters I've ever seen. At first he tries to repress what he feels for Makino, but he lets all those feelings loose after figuring out she has a thing for Rui. Cue the confrontation on the fire escape staircase where he goes into a blind rage, knocks her to the ground, and forces himself on her. She stops him/he stops himself, but that is still one very messed up scene.

In the subsequent arc, Domyouji goes on to have several "if I can't have her, I wIlL dEstRoy hEr" moments (still very early on in the story). Like his reaction to seeing Makino kiss Rui after he takes her and all his friends on vacation. He sets the entire school against Makino and turns his back to her to the extent that she winds up tied to a rope getting dragged behind a car. Again, he realizes the error of his ways too late. From there on out, he goes through some major changes and grows tf up. His character is unrecognizable by the end. Both he and Makino experience a beautiful coming-of-age together over the course of the series while always maintaining their agency.

If you're interested in analyzing these kinds of characters, I think it's important to recognize that a story like Hanadan wouldn't work if Makino wasn't the stubborn, determined, dominant, incredible character she is. She never takes Domyouji's crap, and they're able to grow up and evolve together. In the end, these kinds of dynamics are really all dependent on how well the girl is characterized and developed. If she's a weak, passive character who isn't the guy's moral superior at first, then the dynamic becomes offensive and simply doesn't work. The heroine needs to be the one who winds up being entirely right. It's really up to the guy to atone, learn from his mistakes, make better choices, and turn himself into the girl's equal. Good examples of this are both Hanadan and Buffy/Spike. In the best stories, the guy improves so much that the girl is left behind and forced to confront her own identity as well.

Darth_marshmallow wrote:

Piper Maru wrote:Things that got me "hmmmm" after TLJ and made me think of possible political plotlines for IX:

1) Rose incapacitating people who were trying to escape.
2) The allies completely ignoring Leia's distress signal.

It shows that even on the side of the "good guys", people are getting fed up with the war and the pointless conflict. I wonder if some sort of insurgency from a third party (the ones who are 100% done with both sides) would be an interesting option.

@Piper Maru

Especially having in mind Finn's line "people believe in Leia"

@Darth_marshmallow

That is what actually made me angry. No one wants to help them and Luke is all - war is just starting, rebellion is reborn. And I can't away from that - "what is the point of it all" feeling.

Lovely_Rose wrote:Someone translated the interview on tumblr. Here's the significant parts:

Mtime: A lot of fans support Rey and Kylo Ren becoming a couple, Daisy do you feel them as a pair makes sense?

Daisy: No, I don’t, it’s that simple. The feeling The Last Jedi gave me is rather different. Viewer’s view on Kylo Ren will change dramatically. Rey thinks Kylo wants to be forgiven for his crimes, she can understand him. I’m happy that the two of them can reach some level of understanding but at the end Kylo is scum, so I feel…

Mark: Hahahaha, no, he’s just misunderstood, he misses his father.

Daisy: (impersonating Mark’s) He’s so lonely. Anyway, I can understand why fans will think this way, but I don’t think they will become a couple.

I have a difficult time believing this is true (at least word for word) for the fact that the phrasing is very harsh and somewhat definitive. If Daisy feels like Kylo and Rey wouldn't make a good couple yet because of Kylo's development that's one thing, but for her to say that Reylo doesn't make sense in its entirety and that she doesn't think there's a possibility of it happening is so far away from what TLJ showed it's amazing.

@Lovely_Rose

I am about done.   I was thinking the translation made it sound worse than it was, but now it's the other way around.   I have a really hard time believing she'd actually spoil a huge thing in IX like that, especially with the way TLJ built it up, but at the same time it appears to be real and she basically told us today the end of IX is going to be bleak as hell.  I no longer have any interest in this franchise if this is how it's going to be.

I don't think she'd know the ending of IX or even the plot yet. That's only possible until the actors are given the scripts, correct?

Lovely_Rose wrote:Someone translated the interview on tumblr. Here's the significant parts:

Mtime: A lot of fans support Rey and Kylo Ren becoming a couple, Daisy do you feel them as a pair makes sense?

Daisy: No, I don’t, it’s that simple. The feeling The Last Jedi gave me is rather different. Viewer’s view on Kylo Ren will change dramatically. Rey thinks Kylo wants to be forgiven for his crimes, she can understand him. I’m happy that the two of them can reach some level of understanding but at the end Kylo is scum, so I feel…

Mark: Hahahaha, no, he’s just misunderstood, he misses his father.

Daisy: (impersonating Mark’s) He’s so lonely. Anyway, I can understand why fans will think this way, but I don’t think they will become a couple.

I have a difficult time believing this is true (at least word for word) for the fact that the phrasing is very harsh and somewhat definitive. If Daisy feels like Kylo and Rey wouldn't make a good couple yet because of Kylo's development that's one thing, but for her to say that Reylo doesn't make sense in its entirety and that she doesn't think there's a possibility of it happening is so far away from what TLJ showed it's amazing.

@Lovely_Rose

What?! So in one interview she gets emotional talking about Rey’s and Kylo’s shared loneliness, and in this one she mocks Mark for saying he’s lonely??? Does. Not. Add. Up. Where’s the video? Only way I’ll believe those words came out of her mouth.

This is probably a very unpopular opinion, and I'm sure I'll get hell for this, but I think Daisy should pay more attention to how she words things in her interviews. And this isn't a Reylo thing, but some of the other statements she has made about other topics don't come across very well (like how she felt about not working with John and having to work with other actors, or when she found our JJ was directing IX and not Rian). I know it's frustrating too get misquoted, but in several cases she's actually providing the material because she doesn't think about how her answers might be perceived.

@Lovely_Rose @IoJovi

True or not, it pisses me off. "but I don’t think they will become a couple" (?¿) No comments.

Lovely_Rose wrote:Someone translated the interview on tumblr. Here's the significant parts:

Mtime: A lot of fans support Rey and Kylo Ren becoming a couple, Daisy do you feel them as a pair makes sense?

Daisy: No, I don’t, it’s that simple. The feeling The Last Jedi gave me is rather different. Viewer’s view on Kylo Ren will change dramatically. Rey thinks Kylo wants to be forgiven for his crimes, she can understand him. I’m happy that the two of them can reach some level of understanding but at the end Kylo is scum, so I feel…

Mark: Hahahaha, no, he’s just misunderstood, he misses his father.

Daisy: (impersonating Mark’s) He’s so lonely. Anyway, I can understand why fans will think this way, but I don’t think they will become a couple.

I have a difficult time believing this is true (at least word for word) for the fact that the phrasing is very harsh and somewhat definitive. If Daisy feels like Kylo and Rey wouldn't make a good couple yet because of Kylo's development that's one thing, but for her to say that Reylo doesn't make sense in its entirety and that she doesn't think there's a possibility of it happening is so far away from what TLJ showed it's amazing.

@Lovely_Rose
Meh, as we were all discussing yesterday, Daisy can really only talk about the characters as they are right now, not theorize about how they might change in the future. Basically she has rampage Renperor and "I was wrong about him" Rey to work with lol. Without considering the future and just looking at the characters as they stand currently, it doesn't seem like they should/will come together, let alone become a couple. That tension/conflict is kind of the whole point of the story and is exactly why there's a whole other movie left.

Lovely_Rose wrote:I don't think she'd know the ending of IX or even the plot yet. That's only possible until the actors are given the scripts, correct?

@Lovely_Rose

Doesn't matter- to say that is pretty tactless, especially about a script she hasn't read.  Does she not get that the whole reason Reywalker was turned on it's head, and a romance was teased between she and Ben, THE last Skywalker descendant, was to increase the stakes for the Skywalker line?

Wow, what kind of mystery gate is this - no video, some people saying it isn't legit, but then it's a bit hard to believe, even if I want to. That translation feels a bit like a slap in the face.

The thing that doesn't make sense to me (if this is true and not taken out of context by the translator or something) is that she seemed open to the idea of Reylo before (liking Reylo art, saying their relationship is awesome) and now she is absolutely against it . Something must have happened to make her change her mind so abruptly . However, I don't think she knows what will happen in IX since she said she hasn't even spoken to JJ, so I wouldn't take this as a debunking, it's just her opinion .