Official TROS Spoilers discussion

Great response to the “we’ll have to find the new Chris Evans and his sweater” comment from RJ:

special_cases wrote:

@special_cases

Kelly looks always fierce and awesome on the Red Carpet <3

PS : sorry for my very bad language , but really? It's the best and most elegant way she can say Sith You to some people. Kelly you are awesome <3

Lily Snape wrote:Great response to the “we’ll have to find the new Chris Evans and his sweater” comment from RJ:

@Lily Snape

I've been "not lurking a bit" =) But to be honnest, I adored Chris Evans in Snowpiercer. Great movie, I was happy Bon Jang Hoo got THE oscar because I really love a lot of his movies. But now I wanna see a new colaboration between Adam and Rian, who are not only very talented but two awesome, very lovable persons. Make it happen Rian! =) <3

I really love them both so much <3

I swear every time a Kylo comic comes out people turn it into a crisis. I said this before, but I truly don't follow the train of thought that "this comic makes me sad, so it must be nihilistic and intentionally sadistic, and now I'm angry and that makes me enlightened," or that it's mostly to convince people who insisted Kylo was just really evul the whole time, which is apparently a bad thing. Because what do people want otherwise? Would they actually want him to have been evil the whole time, or have had a happy childhood, neither of which make sense? They're angry that LF still has the nerve to keep making Ben Solo content, but I thought we were mad because of his supposed erasure? People clamored for validation of what we suspected about him being less to blame than many claimed, now it's happening, but apparently this is the worst thing that could happen now?

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. There's so many valid reasons to be upset at LF and specifically the treatment of Ben, but this kind of weirdness reminds me of why SW fandom has a reputation for never being happy, practically inventing reasons to be eternally and righteously upset. Like, pick a reason you're angry and stick with it, do we need to keep changing the goalposts to try to make ourselves look good at every opportunity?

Meanwhile, in a similar vein but on the other end of the spectrum, someone was joking that at least one franchise (Fast & Furious) would have justice for Han (also the name of an F&F character). But... Ben Solo died already. What more justice could you want? For Han to not have died? But would there be any justice needed if he never died? Once again, people make up excuses to be upset even in jest. There's enough bad things going on in SW, namely the films, do we need to create more at every turn?

Also:

Possibly it´s like rubbing salt in a wound. People read it and think why oh why did he have to die?
That´s the reason why I don´t buy these comics. It would me only make sad and angry again to read about his backstory, I personally don´t need this, but to each their own.

@californiagirl
I think people just feel that LF are rubbing salt to the wound. These comics being published is proof that LF see Ben as a victim of his circumstances. And since they see him as such it just adds the the insanity of killing him off like they did. Fans are still processing and are trying to cope and these comics are just not helping. Not to mention the radio silence we've had regarding Reylo/Ben in TROS and their decision to kill him.

I got issue one, but I've been unable to buy two or three, they were sold out before the official release date.

As for me, I'm pleased Charles is making Kylo/Ben so sympathetic. That and the comic's success is salt in a wound alright - the 'salt' of our love for this character, and respect for the guy who plays him in the 'wound' of TROS"s stupendous own goal in killing him off.
Keep watching, LF. Keep watching just how the character you shafted is putting money in your pockets.

@Nyx That's what I don't get, the films and EU had already indicated, and it was certainly a standard belief among Kylo fans, that he was a victim. Now that's a huge insult? It's like there's no viable option that won't massively upset everyone. Should they have canceled the comic, which would probably have looked worse in several ways, including yet more Ben erasure? I really, truly do not think the point of these stories is to hurt people, but this is the standard belief and only option apparently.

Do people want Terrio and JJ to talk about killing Kylo? I genuinely can't see much good coming out of that, especially since I'm not sure there was much thought put into it at all. I see the sentiment in many places that Rey lived and Ben died because she was deemed the "good one" who was allowed to be a Skywalker. Honestly, as with so many things about TROS, I don't even believe it has that level of intended analysis. Rey was used as a Luke stand in so she's a Skywalker, Kylo was used as a Vader stand in so he died. It really probably is that simple, it's the same principle that guided most of the film, stuff you recognize from the OT thrown together on screen again with none of the appropriate context. The only place Ben was actually deemed not worthy of being a Skywalker was the CT script, but TROS is done so poorly and vaguely people can project their interpretations as intended meanings even if they're not technically on screen.

My only gripe is that this should have been in the films themselves, not relegated to a comic book, no matter how successful it is. Same for some of the Bloodline/Aftermath stuff too. Seems kind of important.

@californiagirl
The comic itself isn't an insult. People on my twitter timeline don't seem to have a problem with the comic and are only praising Soule. Any dissatisfaction goes back to TROS. It's the TROS ending that's the insult and the timing of the comic is making people rightfully mad and miserable. LF are like "we know that we killed your favourite character last month, so here's a comic about his past proving how much of a victim he was and didn't deserve to die." It hurts.

What saddens me, is that real life abuse victims, and the mentally ill identified with him.


And maybe Terrio/, Abrams genuinely didn't realize it, but in their desperate desire to plug The Twins, they made Luke, Leia and Rey look like heartless b******* who were more interested in their adopted child than their own flesh and blood.
Seeing Poe Dameron flying the Falcon and sitting by Leia's bedside rubs it in even further, especially as it's established canon that she saw him as a surrogate son.

For people who are abuse survivors they see Luke and Leia throwing away Ben because he's'tainted'......let's face it, after his interesting character development in TLJ Poe is depicted as a 100% guy in white hat, while Rey meanwhile is clad in white, signifying her 'purity' and perfection. This is not a good message to send.

I think some of the "WTF did I waste 4 years on?!" that collateral items like the comics brings out is that TFA's launch coincided with a very concerted effort to highlight the Story Group. How LFL was telling cohesive/coherent stories unlike the wilderness years of comics and the EU. Hence Bloodline being the follow-up to TFA as something that was originally conceived of in the early stages of its development as a plotline/characters that didn't survive the final cut. And they danced around several major details in the movie and the book - the 30 years since Endor when Leia and Han had a child, who ends up being Luke's ward/apprentice, and what becomes of their worlds on a familial and social/political level. Which for a lot of fans, the 30 years since the last movie also meant that we wanted to know "the rest of the story" and what Lucas had thought about in having it be 3 generations in 9 chapters. We got hints at it, e.g. the political and emotional secret Leia carries about her biological father finally blowing up on her and how the New Republic has failed to address the problems caused by the Old Republic that the Empire (and now by proxy the First Order) exploited in alliance with the criminal syndicates. LFL continued to dance around these ideas in TLJ and Solo without finally following through in TRoS. The personal, sure that can't be helped as Carrie's untimely death meant there'd never be a good way to resolve the plot point of her relationship with Ben (though reading the supposed leak of Trevorrow's script, not sure if that was ever going to happen). But all these stories, the movies and the publishing projects, hinted at "there's more to the story" and waiting for the pay off and then it gets dumped in an afterthought of a comic. At best most of us assumed that the initial dancing around telling the full story was holding back for the eventual reveal as part of the overall story for catharsis at the finale. However at this point? It feels most plausible that they never followed through with these themes/ideas because there were different opinions/agendas between the creatives about the story/characters. It's not that "_______ is a spoiler" as much as the differences in who the characters were in TRoS versus the previous two movies points to differences of opinions between the creatives and the studio (and we now know that several key players have defected LFL for T Street, Rian's new production company). The cognitive dissonance isn't just that they didn't commit to some details, like exactly what happened to Ben between the confrontation with Luke and when we see him on Jakku with LST. It's that when they did commit in having Rey admit that she's been lying to herself and others about who her parents and what happened with him, the next chapter is whiplash inducing with "they chose to be poor and sold you to protect you because it turns out you do have a place in the story after all the soul searching and realizing that you don't need to do anything other than stand on your own feet."

Also plausible that what got kicked off in 2015 has turned out to be an entire Proof of Concept about whether or not Star Wars could be popular/successful in a very different type of media landscape, especially as a brand for theme parks and streaming services.

I think that what happened is Kylo and Rey became Jaden and Jaina Solo.
In short the films became as depressing as the EU novels.

californiagirl wrote:I swear every time a Kylo comic comes out people turn it into a crisis. I said this before, but I truly don't follow the train of thought that "this comic makes me sad, so it must be nihilistic and intentionally sadistic, and now I'm angry and that makes me enlightened," or that it's mostly to convince people who insisted Kylo was just really evul the whole time, which is apparently a bad thing. Because what do people want otherwise? Would they actually want him to have been evil the whole time, or have had a happy childhood, neither of which make sense? They're angry that LF still has the nerve to keep making Ben Solo content, but I thought we were mad because of his supposed erasure? People clamored for validation of what we suspected about him being less to blame than many claimed, now it's happening, but apparently this is the worst thing that could happen now?

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. There's so many valid reasons to be upset at LF and specifically the treatment of Ben, but this kind of weirdness reminds me of why SW fandom has a reputation for never being happy, practically inventing reasons to be eternally and righteously upset. Like, pick a reason you're angry and stick with it, do we need to keep changing the goalposts to try to make ourselves look good at every opportunity?

Meanwhile, in a similar vein but on the other end of the spectrum, someone was joking that at least one franchise (Fast & Furious) would have justice for Han (also the name of an F&F character). But... Ben Solo died already. What more justice could you want? For Han to not have died? But would there be any justice needed if he never died? Once again, people make up excuses to be upset even in jest. There's enough bad things going on in SW, namely the films, do we need to create more at every turn?

Also:

@californiagirl

I agree with you.

Definitely understand the pain we feel, yet Reylos need to be careful. Not for optics, but because pain is not in a vacuum - it affects well being, and there is a danger/concern of becoming toxic and contributing to toxicity. We're still in a grieving period, so I understand it for now....yet I feel in my bones that window is narrowing.

I get the dissonance between the EU and TROS, but for all the endless discussion about how LF did the wrong thing releasing this comic, which seemed to be underway while TROS was still filming and in general chaos, I fail to see what the "right" thing to do would have been. It's an affront to do the thing, but also an affront to not do the thing. Which thing are we mad about, I can't keep up with the outrage.

I also saw someone call the comic gross. Really? That Vader comic last year was certainly gross. Various other things in SW are too (including much of TROS), but the amount of sheer rage I see at the Kylo comic's mere existence is baffling.

The thing with the comic showing all the background information besides the big reveal in the movie, it's not just putting his fall and eventual 15 minutes of redemption/love/happiness in an even more tragic light. It's telling the story that was shown in Solo, of a young man forced by circumstances away from his parents, especially the failure of a father, and ending up on the wrong path. They're having fun with the KoR in the comics (and the movies ended up wasting that potential after teasing it for 4 years), but they're very much in the same position with Ben that characters like Beckett were with Han. Which it felt like the point of Han's role in the ST was in part undoing the misdeeds and missteps of the past as a mentor and stepping up to the role of the father. The comic certainly seems goofy in its depiction of the KoR taking Ben on and making him over. But there's no point in repeating the story already told in Solo, which had an impact on the first two movies when the story itself gets ignored/dropped in the culminating chapter. Or at least, it points to what I was saying in regards to the big splash Bloodline made this time 4 years ago, including communities like this one. When you sell your storytelling on being consistent and with certain themes/ideas/complex characters and then drop the ball so hard with the most important chapter - it's a natural reaction for people to be confused and upset if they've invested themselves (and I'm too broke but so many people here invested time/money into activities like podcasting and going to conventions like SWCC or DragonCon) for years into something that then feels like they were sold a fake bill of goods.

From around a week ago, around the BAFTAs. How did she find this lol, she’s the first like on the tweet, she wasn’t even tagged

DLF made a very big mistake.
They wanted the ST protagonist to be a woman. But they ended up creating a so called 'antagonist' who was far more interesting, and in the end sympathetic, than the protagonist.

I'm a woman! I loved seeing Rey with a lightsabre. But as the trilogy progressed, I found myself far more invested in Kylo's story arc than Rey's. For me, this trilogy was at it's best when it focused on them as two halves of the same whole. But, unfortunately for Rey, where Kylo can carry a film and even a comic, by himself, Rey can't. She was actually at her best when we first meet her, the scavenger who put on a tough face yet was soft enough to refuse to sell a droid she'd just met for more food and water she'd ever had in her young life. When she gradually became Jedi Rey she ceased, at least for me, to be a human being and instead turned into someone so good to be true it was impossible to identify with her. Kylo meanwhile, became increasingly relatable as the trilogy progressed. At the end of TROS I wanted more Ben Solo. I'd had my fill of Rey. And Rey Palpwalker was the last straw.
I think the comic is trying to satisfy people's desire to see more Ben, but it's not enough to erase the sting of his ultimate fate. As DLF, Terrio and Abrams in all likelihood will refuse to admit they s****** up we will probably never get a revised version of TROS on dvd, or better still, a film which will bring back Ben Solo.
But the huge popularity of Adam and Kylo/Ben is something I take comfort in. As for me....I'd like to see Adam reprise Ben Solo. But not in a prequel. We know how his story ends. I want it to continue. And if Rian directed it'd be the icing on the cake!

@Kylo Rey Awwww. More than likely she uses social media metric tools work to track mentions/engagement for her podcast and books. But having an alert for her husband and liking anything/everything that's a positive mention of his accomplishments is very sweet.

How TROS shoud have ended This is hilarious
https://youtu.be/2OnieKUgv3I

Darth_marshmallow wrote:How TROS shoud have ended This is hilarious
https://youtu.be/2OnieKUgv3I

@Darth_marshmallow

LOL. Can't wait for the Honest Trailer, they generally bring it.

Also, there's a ton of new HQ stills from TROS, nice to see people having fun with them.

He does look good.

Shame for killing him now that Rey healed his scar. he looks great with or without but yeah, they could have continued without long scar-applying sessions.

californiagirl wrote:

Darth_marshmallow wrote:How TROS shoud have ended This is hilarious
https://youtu.be/2OnieKUgv3I

@Darth_marshmallow

LOL. Can't wait for the Honest Trailer, they generally bring it.

Also, there's a ton of new HQ stills from TROS, nice to see people having fun with them.

He does look good.

@californiagirl

Soo beautiful, a Prince.

WRT Kylo comics I don't feel particularly sorry for Kylo yet from them. I have sympathy for the character overall as a tormented character who has fallen to the dark side. Snoke's gradual access to his mind is particularly creepy and it's still unclear when that started. Speculations like it started in the womb, or it started before Leia sent him away and his unstable behavior began after Snoke made a home for himself inside Ben's mind, are all still hanging in limbo because that part of the story has yet to be filled in.

From the comics alone, I so far find Anakin's fall more tragic than Ben's. I don't know if Ben inadvertently created the lightening that destroyed the entire "temple" and killed some of the students on the spot. I suspect he did and it's an expression of the "raw strength" Luke mentioned. I believe it was not what he wanted however, as he said. Kylo has a lot of self-control issues and I suspect that's why Leia wanted to send him to Luke. He had incredible power and little ability to control it. Unfortunately due to Snoke in his mind (I assume) he started heading down the dark path and the dark side made something monstrous of this difficulty controlling himself. The Force controls ones actions in addition to obeying their commands, and the dark side would be a poor "master."

All that said, Ben does choose to go to Snoke after the temple incident and he had maintained this intrigue with the Knights of Ren for years, ever since meeting them as a kid. They were probably planted there even as part of Snoke's plan. He chose the dark side and chose to learn from the Knights of Ren. I don't really understand why. It may be as simple as feeling after the atrocity he committed at the temple there is no way back, and he convinced himself that place was just a lie because in his mind Luke tried to kill him.

Unfortunately I have far less faith in Star Wars canon after TROS which I feel was very cavalier with it. It feels more like the Marvel universe now in which things just happen "because" and just turn your brain off. This contradicts the way they were telling these stories, by spreading them out over multiple media. It's difficult to be invested in piecing the story together (a process that means your brain needs to be on so you can analyze and think about it) when the story ultimately asks you not to think at all (hello TROS). It makes it feel like I wasted my time indeed, which was of course my choice.

Bennie Boi looks so princely in the new still. D*mn, I will forever be bitter that I'll never get to see Ben's past stories or future stories on the big screen. After Disney announced that they're definitely going to make Aladdin 2   because the original film made great profits, some Reylo fellows I know on social media have started to hold out hope that perhaps the Mouse would bring Bennie Boi back because his comic sold out, but I'm not holding my breath for that hopeless case. There are heavy odds against Bennie Boi's resurrection and the most important thing is the mouse just wants to forget about ST's failure and the trio's existence, I doubt that a story of reviving Bennie Boi could avoid the interference of ReySky plus her BFG and ReySky/BFG already proved that they could tank every SW stuff from comic to cartoon to films so the Mouse dun want to hurt their profit anymore. It's so suck that Bennie Boi was associated with the ST, godd*****  

I guess there's always an option of bringing Ben back hundreds of years into the future, in a whole new different setting?

That would mean no Rey, sadly, but to be honest I can't see them backtracking on Rey's TRoS ending and letting her have her happy ending with Ben instead.