Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

I have nothing to add. Sorry. Apart from I believe when this thread started was when I began lurking in this forum. I remember stumbling on this site - seeing this thread and having no freaking idea what you lot where talking about ! Oh but I’ve done my Reylo research since then.

@Let The Past Die I agree the DVD release will have me geeking over nuances like that. Well spotted

@Let The Past Die @Darth Rowan - thanks for confirming that I'm not just imagining thing!




I mean, Snoke uses the exact same two words of weak and foolish in setting up what he thinks is going to be Kylo fulfilling his place in the DS by murdering Rey, same two words used on the bridge with Han. The father who said "too much Vader in him" ("too much of his father in him" in the first movie) and to whom Kylo says he was too much like him (Snoke's earlier insult of "too much of your father's heart, young Solo") in being weak and foolish. And then we get the damn dice at the end when he has the vision of Rey slipping from his grasp and the dice turn up again in the trailer. All of which have either been written or had input from Lawrence "The villains are petrified into who they are and the heroes are always evolving" Kasdan. I may be wearing a tinfoil hat on this topic, but hey at least it's a benign one.

@Darth Rowan - it's just a shame with whatever edits were made to the script that we didn't get at least some context for how much Snoke had been able to insinuate his way into Ben's heart like a fairy tale curse. We see him being insulted and zapped around with Force Lightening, but it definitely felt like there was something more akin to conditioning/mind control going on there. Just have no idea how far back it went and to what extent other than Snoke preying on somebody who was likely already not self-confident and insecure.

I'm considering TFA and TLJ as a continuous, single story, so I think the patterns can also work between the two movies.  

PARALLELS BETWEEN MOVIES
- Kylo's introduction in TFA (walking down the runway his command shuttle) is repeated in TLJ when he confronts Luke on Crait
- Rey introducing herself to Finn in TFA is re-created almost shot by shot with Rey and Poe in TLJ
- BB-8 watching the First Order at the beginning of TFA is, again, re-created almost shot by shot in Crait
- Poe blowing s*** up again going all "woohoo" in Takodana (TFA) is eerily similar to Rey's "wooohoo I like this!" in Crait
- Kylo taking off his mask for Rey (TFA) is recreated shot by shot in Snoke's Throne Room at the beginning of TLJ - the difference is that in TFA he looks gorgeous and in TLJ he's a complete mess

GLITCHES IN THE MATRIX - TLJ EDITION
- Academy Flashback Scene 1 / Academy Flashback Scene 2
- Obviously, the hand scene: first, Rey offers her hand and Kylo takes it / later, Kylo offers her hand and Ben rejects it

DIALOGUE - TLJ EDITION
- Rey calling Kylo a "murderous snake" / Rose calling DJ a "traitorous snake"
- "The Spark" speech first by Holdo, then by Poe

I've just stated a couple of posts ago, that in the 3rd force bond scene, Rey's face was in the dark and Kylo's was in the light, it niggled me if I was remembering it right, so I managed to find the scenes on tumblr . Interestingly they still had shade to their faces, it's move obvious with Kylo but it's definitely there on Rey, it's as if the moonlight is casting a shadow on her.

So I then had to check out the 4th force bond scene (hands) this time it is different in as much they are not mirror images with the shade across their faces. Rey had the lighter side on her left, and Kylo on his right. Before I checked the scene back, what I remembered about that scene was the contrast of colour, the warm orange/red glow on Rey's face and the cool blue/white on Kylo's face.
Interesting in that hand scene, they do finally mirror one another with the shade on their faces, o only when he is sitting opposite in the hut.

Now to the end scene,(door shutting scene) I didn't think their faces were shaded, but after checking, yet again they are mirroring one another, Rey's face is shaded on her right side and  Kylo's to the left.

What does it mean, I've no idea! I'm rubbish at analysing this sort of thing. What I felt it conveyed to me though, is that they were two halves, mirroring one another, and that then just made me think of the mirror cave where many of us feel it was Kylo's reflection before it transformed into Rey's face. Also the nod to the light and dark, with the light and dark shading on their faces. It spoke of closeness and harmony in their interactions with one another, which then played out in the fight with the PG fight scene. They showed harmony and closeness in that. Just my thoughts on it.

@Piper Maru Oh yeah, "it's all about the hands!"

Also the thing with his scar is that when Snoke is monologuing to Rey about how basically Ben is his b*8tch, it's like dude, who do you think he belongs to now? She marked him at the end of TFA - he's her property now not yours. Also for more repeated beats, the bit with "You have that look in your eyes from the forest." Which besides sounding like a line in a poem or love song, he immediately calls back to that moment. And all the hands:

Spoiler:

Because I just happened to save these from Tumblr a few days ago...

I just remembered something else from the old Boyega interview where he debunked Finn and Rey as love interests

"I loved the developing romance between your character, Finn and Rey in “The Force Awakens.” How is that romance evolving in the next chapter?

Boyega: I mean, we didn’t establish a romance in seven; we never played it that way. Daisy and I, we’re friends.

So there’s no romance?

Boyega: Yes, Finn and Rey – they’re just friends. Finn is a storm trooper, so he doesn’t really know what’s going on. So the romance thing is something that’s going to be interesting in the next installment. It’s not going to go the way you think it’s going to go."

That phrase is almost like Daisy using "We shall see" on her Ellen interview where she got asked the same question.

@Cowgirlsamurai yes! I was trying to remember where I'd read those statements.
@snufkin Oh the hands... Especially Kylo's

@Let The Past Die I forgot the other ones, both films have Leia and Rey holding hands as their denouement. Technically (ignoring BroomKid & his friends), Leia has the literal last word in both films.

snufkin wrote:@Let The Past Die @Darth Rowan - thanks for confirming that I'm not just imagining thing!




I mean, Snoke uses the exact same two words of weak and foolish in setting up what he thinks is going to be Kylo fulfilling his place in the DS by murdering Rey, same two words used on the bridge with Han. The father who said "too much Vader in him" ("too much of his father in him" in the first movie) and to whom Kylo says he was too much like him (Snoke's earlier insult of "too much of your father's heart, young Solo") in being weak and foolish. And then we get the damn dice at the end when he has the vision of Rey slipping from his grasp and the dice turn up again in the trailer. All of which have either been written or had input from Lawrence "The villains are petrified into who they are and the heroes are always evolving" Kasdan. I may be wearing a tinfoil hat on this topic, but hey at least it's a benign one.

@Darth Rowan - it's just a shame with whatever edits were made to the script that we didn't get at least some context for how much Snoke had been able to insinuate his way into Ben's heart like a fairy tale curse. We see him being insulted and zapped around with Force Lightening, but it definitely felt like there was something more akin to conditioning/mind control going on there. Just have no idea how far back it went and to what extent other than Snoke preying on somebody who was likely already not self-confident and insecure.

@snufkin

The novelization and the Aftermath books hint at a pre-birth intrusion by Snoke. The databank also indicates that Snoke was at least with him as a boy, pre-Luke (some line about Ben being a boy desperately needing a teacher. I can't remember the rest now, but it confirmed Snoke was around when Ben was still considered a young child). So it seems like the manipulation started pretty early.

I honestly think that this "mind molestation", or whatever you want to call it, is going to be addressed in IX, and Leia was supposed to be a big part of that exploration.

This makes me think of the Colin discussion happening now in the JJ thread. I think @nickandnora said that IX was probably going deconstruct the OT3 some more, and that didn't please fanboy Colin.

Darth Rowan wrote:

snufkin wrote:
I just realized there's another one which gets repeated between the two movies, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Ben parrots back something to Han about how he destroyed who he was because he's like his father, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Skip ahead to the Throne Room Scene when Snoke has Rey in his clutches and is monologuing about how he supposedly set up their bond. He says he knew it would work that Ben was too WEAK to resist the temptation posed by Rey (too much of his father in him?) and that she would be too FOOLISH to resist the urge to sympathize and help him. So Ben was 100% repeating something Snoke said to him over and over again. But uh, interesting choice to use those two words again which parallel the same type of test, where this time Ben knows what he has to do, which is to kill his true enemy b/c Snoke wants him to 'deliver the cruelest blow' in killing somebody he loves.

@snufkin



Everything in your post, but especially this part about Snoke and Ben - that's brilliant. If you think about it from this context, it makes Kylo Ren's actions of finally breaking free from Snoke all the more significant. He was essentially breaking a cycle of toxicity and emotional manipulation, which is tremendously hard to do. In psychology there is a term called "learned helplessness" - think about the (very cruel) circus practice of chaining a baby elephant; it struggles against the chain until it "learns" that it can't break free. By the time it is fully grown, that chain is the easiest thing to break, but the elephant has now "learned" that it is helpless against it and so will almost never attempt to break free. With Kylo Ren, he had to overcome learned helplessness against Snoke's years of emotional abuse AND his own ideas/fear of being defective and weak, etc, in order to finally free himself and defeat his true enemy. He did that himself and it's very empowering - but it was because of Rey. She was "the spark that lit the flame", to quote Poe's terrible monologue. ^^

I know there is still a lot of anxiety about whether Kylo Ren will be redeemed, but to me this kind of analysis makes it more obvious that Kylo Ren is already undergoing a profound change. The conflict was there, already present in TFA, but he needed a catalyst, something to help him take action towards change: enter Rey. That's why for a lot of us the redemption arc has already begun, it's already happening - just like Reylo is already is already happening.

tl;dr: Ben Solo's character development in TLJ is real, and it's spectacular. Also: REYLO.

@Darth Rowan

To add to the bolded above, we actually watch Rey fling a spark onto the curtain in the throne room, burning the curtain down, ascending the room to the stars, or maybe in a way, taking another layer off the onion in this trilogy.

A few more phrases that occur twice:


Kylo (TFA): "I'm being torn apart."

Rey (TLJ) "It's tearing you apart."

-

TFA:
Kylo to Han: "Your son is gone."

TLJ:
Leia: "I held out hope for so long, but I know my son is gone."
Luke: "No one is ever really gone."

-

Kylo to Rey (TFA): "You're so lonely."

TLJ:
Rey: "I'd never felt so alone."
Kylo: "You're not alone."
Rey: "Neither are you."

-

Kylo to Rey (TFA): "You need a teacher."

Luke to Rey (TLJ): "You need a teacher."


This also reminded me of these (all in TFA):

Poe: "You need a pilot."
Finn: "I need a pilot."

Finn: "We need a pilot."
Rey: "We've got one."

Finn: "I need a weapon."
Maz: "You have one."

So much need in this film (and Kylo needs the girl)

-

Han (TFA) "Take off that mask. You don't need it."

Snoke (TLJ): "Take that ridiculous thing off."

-

Rey to Han (TFA): We need your help.

Rey to Luke (TLJ): We need your help.

-

Beru about Luke (ANH): "There's too much of his father in him."

Han about Kylo (TFA): "There was too much Vader in him."

Snoke about Kylo (TLJ): "You have too much of your father's heart in you."

-

There were also many conversations about failure TLJ:

Snoke (to Kylo): "You failed."

Rey (to Luke): "Kylo failed you. I won't."

Luke tells Rey that he failed Kylo.

Luke: "I failed you, Ben."

Yoda: "But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher failure is."

(And of course we see a lot of characters fail in this film, like Snoke, Poe and the Resistance, Rose and Finn, Rey and Kylo, ...)

-

Luke (to Rey): "Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong."

Luke (to Kylo): "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong."

(I thought this was another nice parallel between Rey and Kylo).

Forsythia wrote:A few more phrases that occur twice:


Kylo (TFA): "I'm being torn apart."

Rey (TLJ) "It's tearing you apart."

-

TFA:
Kylo to Han: "Your son is gone."

TLJ:
Leia: "I held out hope for so long, but I know my son is gone."
Luke: "No one is ever really gone."

-

Kylo to Rey (TFA): "You're so lonely."

TLJ:
Rey: "I'd never felt so alone."
Kylo: "You're not alone."
Rey: "Neither are you."

-

Kylo to Rey (TFA): "You need a teacher."

Luke to Rey (TLJ): "You need a teacher."


This also reminded me of these (all in TFA):

Poe: "You need a pilot."
Finn: "I need a pilot."

Finn: "We need a pilot."
Rey: "We've got one."

Finn: "I need a weapon."
Maz: "You have one."

So much need in this film (and Kylo needs the girl)

-

Han (TFA) "Take off that mask. You don't need it."

Snoke (TLJ): "Take that ridiculous thing off."

-

Rey to Han (TFA): We need your help.

Rey to Luke (TLJ): We need your help.

-

Beru about Luke (ANH): "There's too much of his father in him."

Han about Kylo (TFA): "There was too much Vader in him."

Snoke about Kylo (TLJ): "You have too much of your father's heart in you."

-

There were also many conversations about failure TLJ:

Snoke (to Kylo): "You failed."

Rey (to Luke): "Kylo failed you. I won't."

Luke tells Rey that he failed Kylo.

Luke: "I failed you, Ben."

Yoda: "But weakness, folly, failure also. Yes, failure most of all. The greatest teacher failure is."

(And of course we see a lot of characters fail in this film, like Snoke, Poe and the Resistance, Rose and Finn, Rey and Kylo, ...)

-

Luke (to Rey): "Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong."

Luke (to Kylo): "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong."

(I thought this was another nice parallel between Rey and Kylo).

@Forsythia

Excellent work with this collection.

Ooh ooh, I have one to add.

Kylo to Snoke: I gave everything to you, to the Dark Side.

Snoke to Rey: Now, give me everything!

Just noticed this is in the "Weak and foolish" thread, more on the provenance behind that phrase. H/t to @MeadowofAshes and @reylo1992

MeadowofAshes wrote:

reylo1992 wrote:I was searching about the possible meaning/symbolism behind the leaked photo about thesalt desert, found that...
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/1795/Salt-as-Metaphor.htm
... and jumped while reading this passage:

Our Savior Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 5:13-14 that we are the "salt of the earth" and the "light of the world"—we who are also the weak and the foolish of this world (I Corinthians 1:27)

Then, I searched for the specific passage in the Bible to what the guy refers in order to check by myself  and found that:

"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty"

or

"but God chose the foolish things of the world that he might put to shame those who are wise. God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong"
:shock:

As I am neither native English speaker nor has any religious abckground, I don't really understand the meaning of these sentences neither textually nor in the religious context. Does this shed new light on Kylo's comments to his father:?:

@reylo1992

There's also the entire Sermon on the Mount. "Blessed are the poor, for they shall..." etc. It's an entire list of who is blessed and why, and they're the opposite of what humans value.

Essentially, the meaning that can be taken here is God loves and values what the mortal world does not. Whereas humans love what gets us an advantage over others, God loves the "weak" things who are humble enough to serve God and others through love rather than put their own ego first.

It's interesting that "weak and foolish" specifically come up together in the Christian Bible and the ST. I can't think that's accidental.

One more item I forgot to add for TLJ, the "tied at the end of a string" line. Which overtly is the hyperspace tracking blah blah blah Hux is using to chase the Resistance and which Finn and Rose try to take out. But there's something bigger, Snoke knows about the Force Bond between Rey and Ren, they're tied on a string to each other. Which Snoke uses to take out Rey (and fails). Wild conjecture - Hux will figure it out in IX and use that to take out the Resistance, eliminate Kylo as the only thing which stands in front of him running the FO (which given the book anecdote about how Snoke outlasted the other leaders, it really is a Last Man Standing type of group).

Rain is a repeating motif between them: The very first time Rey ever sees Kylo is via the Force Vision while it's raining, in TFA; when she falls down and Kylo stabs The clan leader whose about to attack her.  The next time was their second Force Skype when she was touching the rain on Ach-to, with her hand and Ben felt it on his hand after it was over.

And for what it's worth in Rey's fight scene against Luke she ended up in the same position as Kylo when he "saved" her in the vision except she was standing over top and Luke was on his back.  And she was fighting him on behalf of Ben. That scene also took place in the rain.  Since she was fighting the man who arguably played a part in sending Ben to the dark she was taking on his sins, like a Christ figure.  Assuming JJ follows up on his mystery box the aforementioned scene should happen in Episode IX.

Rain is often a cleansing metaphor in literature so it's not an accident the first time he is touched by rain (in the TLJ scene I just described) it is only a small amount, foreboding a small amount of his sins are dabbling away but not enough.  In the Force Vision he will be drenched in it while saving Rey showing even more of his darkness being washed away.

Unlike the rest of the bottom feeding clickbait sites, Inverse actually does come up with some good observations/analysis. So speaking of the significance of the dice when we know Kasdan's had a hand not just in writing/producing Solo, but in the ST. There's a deeper thread running through the placement of Han's golden dice between the shot of him as a young man and how its shown in TLJ

'Last Jedi' Novelization Reveals Why Falcon Dice Matter in 'Solo'

On Tuesday, the novelization of Star Wars: The Last Jedi was published by Del Rey Books. And one change no one saw coming will retroactive effect the events of Solo. Han didn’t win the Falcon in a card game. He won it throwing dice. Which means those infamous hanging dice Luke used to fake-out Kylo Ren in The Last Jedi now have an added significance. They were the luckiest dice in Han’s life because they are the ones he used when he beat Lando in some kind of game.

In the book, this revelation happens when Leia is reflecting on Kylo Ren’s childhood and youth. From page 82:

Ben as a toddler, forever following Han. Carrying the dice from the Millennium Falcon — the ones his father had used to win the beloved, battered freighter — and promising anyone who’d listen that one day he would be a pilot, too, like his daddy.

And there you have it. In old Star Wars Legends canon, Han and Lando always played the card game sabaac for the Falcon. But now, we know that will be different. And because Solo: A Star Wars Story will have to depict Han winning the Falcon, we’ll all be seeing these dice again very, very soon.

Also IIRC, one of Leia's moments using the Force in Bloodline is the casino sequence, when she's also throwing dice to play against the house.

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but twice now Rey, Kylo, and Finn have been at the same location with Finn pressed up against the floor, and Rey/Kylo have almost "joined" (not really, but both times there was a proposition of joining) before Rey turned against him and the Force separated them (first time Kylo asks to be her teacher, second time he asks her to join him in ruling). And both times, there was Finn in that exact same position... interesting.

I have an inkling what's going to happen the third time, and it matches up with my predictions rather well... not sure if anyone is going to like it though, lol. But here it is:

Third time, I think they do "come together" (read my predictions for what I think this looks like) and the act of doing so creates a new, "balanced" force that is then transferred to a nearby recipient who previously was not in possession of any force powers: Finn. Finn is going to be Rey and Kylo's "force baby."

This is why you should always use protection, kids. Lol.

Bumping up for the Gold Sabaac Dice playing a key role in the Crait finale and getting featured in the Solo trailer.

Bahhh! I don’t remember who posted these two observations or what platform I saw them on, but:

1.) The last time Kylo and Luke were together, Kylo destroyed the hut they were in. The next time they see each other, Luke brings down the hut.

2.) The first time Luke sees Leia in ANH, she’s a projection asking for help. The last time they are together, he’s a projection, there to help her.

@Cowgirlsamurai Your gif reminds me of how the endings for TFA and TLJ are both last shots with him giving puppy dog eyes at Rey as she takes off and leaves him (and then coincidentally her last scene of dialogue is holding hands w/his mother, who had the last word in both films).

snufkin wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai Your gif reminds me of how the endings for TFA and TLJ are both last shots with him giving puppy dog eyes at Rey as she takes off and leaves him (and then coincidentally her last scene of dialogue is holding hands w/his mother, who had the last word in both films).

@snufkin

I guess Rey's future MIL was supposed to play a huge roll in the Bendemption. Han failed at it in TFA and Rey failed at it in TLJ, but Rey's gone back to Leia at the end of each film and Ben has a weak spot for those two ladies. I'm dying to find out how things go down in 9

@Cowgirlsamurai It is interesting how 2/3 of his "big moments" facing an opponent, are with Leia and Rey.