Why are Some Fans So Fixated on Rey Skywalker?

Not sure if anybody has brought this up yet, but I also think Reywalker and unredeemed Kylo going hand-in-hand is an undeniable truth that makes Reywalker much more attractive to fans who desperately want to see Kylo punished. It's not that they don't acknowledge how much struggle he experiences in TFA, it's that they don't think he deserves to be characterized that way at all. Their dislike of Kylo goes beyond the usual disinterest or apathy toward a fictional character. They don't feel he deserves to seek redemption of any kind after what he did to Han (and after what he did to the ending of RotJ), and god forbid any of the other characters ever allow him to do so or accept his help at any point in this story. They genuinely just want to see Kylo be beaten down by Rey, Luke, Finn, Poe, Leia, Chewie, etc. for two more films, before finally being offed in IX. He can't even receive a noble end in their eyes, because that would be sacrilege of the highest order.

The truth is many of them know full well that Kylo will seek redemption so they automatically choose the end that will (in their eyes) be the most painful for him: being hated by everybody who ever loved him, punished and finally dying in darkness and sorrow, as lonely as he ever was. They know Kylo feels a pull to the light, they know he hates himself and I would be darned to say some of them know he feels a strange and unsettling call from Rey, who may serve as his seduction back to the light side. But we can't have Kylo winning, can we? We can't have the emo p***-baby's feewings be fed in any way. So death in darkness it is, and if Kylo isn't the last Skywalker, all their dreams can come true because good ol' Reywalker can just kick him out of the way and replace him for good! She's the daughter they all deserved anyway.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Not sure if anybody has brought this up yet, but I also think Reywalker and unredeemed Kylo going hand-in-hand is an undeniable truth that makes Reywalker much more attractive to fans who desperately want to see Kylo punished. It's not that they don't acknowledge how much struggle he experiences in TFA, it's that they don't think he deserves to be characterized that way at all. Their dislike of Kylo goes beyond the usual disinterest or apathy toward a fictional character. They don't feel he deserves to seek redemption of any kind after what he did to Han (and after what he did to the ending of RotJ), and god forbid any of the other characters ever allow him to do so or accept his help at any point in this story. They genuinely just want to see Kylo be beaten down by Rey, Luke, Finn, Poe, Leia, Chewie, etc. for two more films, before finally being offed in IX. He can't even receive a noble end in their eyes, because that would be sacrilege of the highest order.

The truth is many of them know full well that Kylo will seek redemption so they automatically choose the end that will (in their eyes) be the most painful for him: being hated by everybody who ever loved him, punished and finally dying in darkness and sorrow, as lonely as he ever was. They know Kylo feels a pull to the light, they know he hates himself and I would be darned to say some of them know he feels a strange and unsettling call from Rey, who may serve as his seduction back to the light side. But we can't have Kylo winning, can we? We can't have the emo p***-baby's feewings be fed in any way. So death in darkness it is, and if Kylo isn't the last Skywalker, all their dreams can come true because good ol' Reywalker can just kick him out of the way and replace him for good! She's the daughter they all deserved anyway.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Big time.  If Kylo is the only young Skywalker, they know redemption is highly likely if not certain because the filmmakers are not going to let the Skywalkers go extinct.  Even worse in their eyes, where will Disney get future little Skywalkers for the next trilogy?  They don't want to contemplate that either.  They want Rey to be a Skywalker too so Kylo can safely be killed.

Sacrebleu wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Not sure if anybody has brought this up yet, but I also think Reywalker and unredeemed Kylo going hand-in-hand is an undeniable truth that makes Reywalker much more attractive to fans who desperately want to see Kylo punished. It's not that they don't acknowledge how much struggle he experiences in TFA, it's that they don't think he deserves to be characterized that way at all. Their dislike of Kylo goes beyond the usual disinterest or apathy toward a fictional character. They don't feel he deserves to seek redemption of any kind after what he did to Han (and after what he did to the ending of RotJ), and god forbid any of the other characters ever allow him to do so or accept his help at any point in this story. They genuinely just want to see Kylo be beaten down by Rey, Luke, Finn, Poe, Leia, Chewie, etc. for two more films, before finally being offed in IX. He can't even receive a noble end in their eyes, because that would be sacrilege of the highest order.

The truth is many of them know full well that Kylo will seek redemption so they automatically choose the end that will (in their eyes) be the most painful for him: being hated by everybody who ever loved him, punished and finally dying in darkness and sorrow, as lonely as he ever was. They know Kylo feels a pull to the light, they know he hates himself and I would be darned to say some of them know he feels a strange and unsettling call from Rey, who may serve as his seduction back to the light side. But we can't have Kylo winning, can we? We can't have the emo p***-baby's feewings be fed in any way. So death in darkness it is, and if Kylo isn't the last Skywalker, all their dreams can come true because good ol' Reywalker can just kick him out of the way and replace him for good! She's the daughter they all deserved anyway.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Big time.  If Kylo is the only young Skywalker, they know redemption is highly likely if not certain because the filmmakers are not going to let the Skywalkers go extinct.  Even worse in their eyes, where will Disney get future little Skywalkers for the next trilogy?  They don't want to contemplate that either.  They want Rey to be a Skywalker too so Kylo can safely be killed.

@Sacrebleu
Of course, but the funny thing is many of us see it the complete other way around. Having his delusions shattered and growing as an individual would be much harder and more painful for him than dying with his delusions firmly in place after two films of "getting evillller". It's so much more difficult to acknowledge your personal faults than it is to reach an end alongside them. I want to see him hate himself for what he did to his father, I want to see him fall to his mother's knees, I want to see him offer his neck to his uncle, turn his back on Snoke, let go of his crushing legacy and realize that he was WRONG. The opposing view is just so depressing... so not SW. Like, who wins? Not Kylo, not Luke, not Leia, not Han, not Rey. Their vision for this trilogy is all levels of f***ed up because they're limiting their theories into a tiny box of "Rey has to be a Skywalker or else I have to acknowledge a bunch of other things I would rather pretend don't exist."

@frolickingfizzgig That's what kills me about people who don't want redemption for Kylo because he has done terrible things. Like...they don't want to see him have to deal with the soul-crushing realization that he killed his father for nothing? They just want him to lack all remorse and die with no development? Redemption is not something characters are given because they deserve it. Villains don't 'deserve' redemption, that's the whole point. If they deserved it, there'd be no need for redemption in the first place. But it's something Ben Solo can choose for himself, he can atone. He can decide to stop denying the truth that is his family, recognize that his father died still loving him.

Most people know the Reywalker theory is done and dead. At least fans who are keeping up with things, the ga is a whole different kettle of fish. They'll be pleasantly surprised by the story, I'm sure. But I've seen several people who want Rey to be a Skywalker also concede that Kylo shows a one-sided attraction. So they see Reylo coming, they just don't like it or have much faith in the writers to execute it well.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Of course, but the funny thing is many of us see it the complete other way around. Having his delusions shattered and growing as an individual would be much harder and more painful for him than dying with his delusions firmly in place after two films of "getting evillller". It's so much more difficult to acknowledge your personal faults than it is to reach an end alongside them. I want to see him hate himself for what he did to his father, I want to see him fall to his mother's knees, I want to see him offer his neck to his uncle, turn his back on Snoke, let go of his crushing legacy and realize that he was WRONG. The opposing view is just so depressing... so not SW. Like, who wins? Not Kylo, not Luke, not Leia, not Han, not Rey. Their vision for this trilogy is all levels of f***ed up because they're limiting their theories into a tiny box of "Rey has to be a Skywalker or else I have to acknowledge a bunch of other things I would rather pretend don't exist."

@FrolickingFizzgig

That's the wall I always run into when I try to contemplate how this will unfold.  I just can't see Han and Leia's son and Luke's nephew and (apparently) the only grandchild of Anakin and Padme getting eviler and eviler over the course of the trilogy until Rey bumps him off, The End.  I certainly can't comprehend how that would be more "respectful" of the OT characters' legacies.

I would have been open to Rey being a Skywalker or Solo as long as the story was compelling, but that's not what I saw indicated in the film.  In my opinion, that doesn't appear to be the story they want to tell.

Sacrebleu wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Of course, but the funny thing is many of us see it the complete other way around. Having his delusions shattered and growing as an individual would be much harder and more painful for him than dying with his delusions firmly in place after two films of "getting evillller". It's so much more difficult to acknowledge your personal faults than it is to reach an end alongside them. I want to see him hate himself for what he did to his father, I want to see him fall to his mother's knees, I want to see him offer his neck to his uncle, turn his back on Snoke, let go of his crushing legacy and realize that he was WRONG. The opposing view is just so depressing... so not SW. Like, who wins? Not Kylo, not Luke, not Leia, not Han, not Rey. Their vision for this trilogy is all levels of f***ed up because they're limiting their theories into a tiny box of "Rey has to be a Skywalker or else I have to acknowledge a bunch of other things I would rather pretend don't exist."

@FrolickingFizzgig

That's the wall I always run into when I try to contemplate how this will unfold.  I just can't see Han and Leia's son and Luke's nephew and (apparently) the only grandchild of Anakin and Padme getting eviler and eviler over the course of the trilogy until Rey bumps him off, The End.  I certainly can't comprehend how that would be more "respectful" of the OT characters' legacies.

I would have been open to Rey being a Skywalker or Solo as long as the story was compelling, but that's not what I saw indicated in the film.  In my opinion, that doesn't appear to be the story they want to tell.

@Sacrebleu
And the age-old question again... how can he get evilllller? How can he go lower than killing Han? Oh right, he can't. Not unless the worth of a villain is now measured by how many OT characters they off in the span of of a trilogy (lol). Cancel my tickets right now because I would rather watch Son of the Mask ten times in a row than sit down and watch Kylo's awesome, deep character be twisted into some cackling, froofy-haired version of the Emperor. How boring, what an utter waste of Adam Driver (and the whole freakin' cast's) talents. How insulting to the characters JJ and Kasdan created. Nothing about TFA told me this would be the direction of the story. You said it, it just does not appear to be the narrative they're going for.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:And the age-old question again... how can he get evilllller? How can he go lower than killing Han? Oh right, he can't. Not unless the worth of a villain is now measured by how many OT characters they off in the span of of a trilogy (lol). Cancel my tickets right now because I would rather watch Son of the Mask ten times in a row than sit down and watch Kylo's awesome, deep character be twisted into some cackling, froofy-haired version of the Emperor. How boring, what an utter waste of Adam Driver (and the whole freakin' cast's) talents. How insulting to the characters JJ and Kasdan created. Nothing about TFA told me this would be the direction of the story. You said it, it just does not appear to be the narrative they're going for.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I know, right?  The only way to maintain or exceed the level of evil is to kill Leia, Luke, Chewie, and disassemble R2D2 and C3PO for spare parts.  And maybe blow a raspberry at Obi-Wan's ghost afterward.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Not sure if anybody has brought this up yet, but I also think Reywalker and unredeemed Kylo going hand-in-hand is an undeniable truth that makes Reywalker much more attractive to fans who desperately want to see Kylo punished.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I also think that the unredeemed Kylo has a huge appeal for the fans who really want to see him become the evillest bad*** villain in SW. They don't even necessarily hate him or want him punished - they just want to see him fulfil his potential as a villain. I think many fans (I'm guessing predominantly male ones) really pine for that cool, laser-stopping Kylo we see in his first scene, and as much as Kylo's later complexity is appreciated there's still plenty of "I liked the character until he took off his mask" complaining. Redemption, tragic past and, god forbid, mushy romantic feelings all get in the way of that. And if Rey is a Skywalker, well then Kylo is free to become that irredeemable force of evil they want, and he better damn well keep his mask on at all times, too.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Not sure if anybody has brought this up yet, but I also think Reywalker and unredeemed Kylo going hand-in-hand is an undeniable truth that makes Reywalker much more attractive to fans who desperately want to see Kylo punished. It's not that they don't acknowledge how much struggle he experiences in TFA, it's that they don't think he deserves to be characterized that way at all. Their dislike of Kylo goes beyond the usual disinterest or apathy toward a fictional character. They don't feel he deserves to seek redemption of any kind after what he did to Han (and after what he did to the ending of RotJ), and god forbid any of the other characters ever allow him to do so or accept his help at any point in this story. They genuinely just want to see Kylo be beaten down by Rey, Luke, Finn, Poe, Leia, Chewie, etc. for two more films, before finally being offed in IX. He can't even receive a noble end in their eyes, because that would be sacrilege of the highest order.

The truth is many of them know full well that Kylo will seek redemption so they automatically choose the end that will (in their eyes) be the most painful for him: being hated by everybody who ever loved him, punished and finally dying in darkness and sorrow, as lonely as he ever was. They know Kylo feels a pull to the light, they know he hates himself and I would be darned to say some of them know he feels a strange and unsettling call from Rey, who may serve as his seduction back to the light side. But we can't have Kylo winning, can we? We can't have the emo p***-baby's feewings be fed in any way. So death in darkness it is, and if Kylo isn't the last Skywalker, all their dreams can come true because good ol' Reywalker can just kick him out of the way and replace him for good! She's the daughter they all deserved anyway.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Saracene wrote:I also think that the unredeemed Kylo has a huge appeal for the fans who really want to see him become the evillest bad*** villain in SW. They don't even necessarily hate him or want him punished - they just want to see him fulfil his potential as a villain. I think many fans (I'm guessing predominantly male ones) really pine for that cool, laser-stopping Kylo we see in his first scene, and as much as Kylo's later complexity is appreciated there's still plenty of "I liked the character until he took off his mask" complaining. Redemption, tragic past and, god forbid, mushy romantic feelings all get in the way of that. And if Rey is a Skywalker, well then Kylo is free to become that irredeemable force of evil they want, and he better damn well keep his mask on at all times, too.

@Saracene

Yes.  As I said to someone else, these guys want Kylo to be a talking Darth Maul.

Saracene wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Not sure if anybody has brought this up yet, but I also think Reywalker and unredeemed Kylo going hand-in-hand is an undeniable truth that makes Reywalker much more attractive to fans who desperately want to see Kylo punished.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I also think that the unredeemed Kylo has a huge appeal for the fans who really want to see him become the evillest bad*** villain in SW. They don't even necessarily hate him or want him punished - they just want to see him fulfil his potential as a villain. I think many fans (I'm guessing predominantly male ones) really pine for that cool, laser-stopping Kylo we see in his first scene, and as much as Kylo's later complexity is appreciated there's still plenty of "I liked the character until he took off his mask" complaining. Redemption, tragic past and, god forbid, mushy romantic feelings all get in the way of that. And if Rey is a Skywalker, well then Kylo is free to become that irredeemable force of evil they want, and he better damn well keep his mask on at all times, too.

@Saracene
It's kinda weird, but you know how a lot of us consider Rey and Kylo's interactions to be a sort of female empowerment fantasy? I think the fans you're referring to see it too (overtly or subconsciously), but instead they interpret it as some kind of male disempowerment fantasy. Kylo lost his dark knight persona as soon as a pretty, light-side girl showed up. He wasted his time watching her sleep, trying to see her memories and thoughts, showed her his pretty-boy face and fluffy hair and talked to her all softly. Then he proceeded to get wrecked in every feasible way by this total newbie chick. She kicked his a** at mind-war and then kicked it again at lightsaber dueling. Also she caught the saber even though he was previously all bada** with the blaster-bolt stoppage. She also got his ship, his lightsaber, was offered a job by his father (that we know thanks to Bloodline he wouldn't have offered Ben) and went off to find his teacher so she could be his brand new student! Also, Kylo cried like a little b**** on that catwalk in front of his father, a bunch of stormtroopers, the girl and the rogue stormtrooper who started the whole mess.

Now, the above is only viewed as a problem if you genuinely wanted Vader 2.0. and got a weepy, angsty, "emo" manchild instead. But the two are not mutually exclusive. Kylo can be bada** and still experience great character development alongside the heroine. It might not be the kind of masculinity these guys want to see represented on-screen, but that's why Kylo is a villain for the modern man. He's not sure of himself, confident or  even "happy" being evil. And look at how uncomfortable he makes some fans. That tells you right there tells you he's the perfect villain for this day and age, the kind of villain who can undergo a great transformation as he realizes that everything he stood for was wrong.

So yes, they don't want Kylo to fall for Rey or feel any kind of attraction to her because that makes him weak and lame and pointless. It makes him a "wuss", you know, just like every guy out there who has ever fallen in love. Wait... what? Yeah, this says a lot more about the fans making the demands that Kylo become Palpatine than it does Kylo. They just don't want to see Kylo fall further and further into the depths of emo wussness by dropping his evil, dark mission mask just because a pretty girl entered his life. And the thing that scares them is (deep down) they know Kylo will do it.

Great new thread!  I think there could be many reasons why this idea persists, but I am especially intrigued by the posts here that are discussing gender and the threat to the status quo.  This film actually feels very progressive to me, so I shouldn't be surprised if it feels threatening to others.  

On the one hand, Rey is a female character with her own storyline behind her and an exciting journey in the present and future.  To paraphrase @Darth Dingbat, this film is both "female-centric and geared towards female interests and female fantasies." Yes!

On the other hand, as @Darth Dingbat and @FrolickingFizzgig wrote, Kylo Ren is certainly the male lead, but one who seems to inspire a sense of "male disempowerment" in many viewers.  This concept is fascinating!  It makes me think of two points (these might be a stretch, but I wanted to share nonetheless):

1. It reminds me of how challenging I find collaborating with many young men on various projects- they seem to always want to fall into an uneven, hierarchical working relationship rather than simply cooperating.  That is, if one person is coming up with ideas, the other must either fight to lead or turn completely passive.  It's either lead or follow, nothing in between.  So, perhaps in their minds, by seeing a female character growing and overcoming, it means that the opposing character must be diminished.  It's a much harder concept (even for me) to think of these characters as yin/yang, not just as opposites, but also as connected and equal.

2. Last summer, I went on an Adrien Brody bender and watched all of his films.  I noticed that even when his films were panned, most reviewers and internet commenters noted that Brody was a great actor who threw himself into any part.  UNTIL a flick called Predators.  Oh boy, the fanboys cried and teared their hair out over this one.  They complained that Brody was too small, too emotional, too distinctive looking. Their criticism reminds me of the fans who think Adam Driver isn't "manly" enough or something.  (It's so weird to me that people think these two actors, who are well over six feet, are wimpy.) My interpretation is that part of their problem is that they had seen previous work by these actors where they played vulnerable characters, and just couldn't get that out of their heads.  But why is vulnerability in male characters such a turnoff to so many viewers?

To be fair, the reason many fans expected Kylo to be a talking Darth Maul is because that’s the expectations Disney themselves have created before the movie’s release. None of the promotional material was selling Kylo as a complicated villain suitable for our times, they were selling him as a one-dimensional threat to our heroes with a scary mask and a cool lightsaber. Of course it was partly in order to hide his heritage and surprise the audience, but I suspect it also had a lot to do with them thinking that the image they were presenting would go down much better with the male audience. One-dimensional bad guys have their place in stories (and SW) and can be fun/cool, and while many people appreciated the bait-and-switch, others were disappointed that they weren’t getting the character they were promised. Kylo’s real face is a great dramatic move, but does it kill the cool bad*** vibe on the spot? Yes it does. But while it’s understandable that some fans might be disappointed, being in denial about the kind of character we got is rather silly. He’s not going to be a one-dimensional bad guy because that’s what some fans want.

Oh and when some fans complain about Kylo being “whiny” or “weak” I think 90% of it has to do with the way his face looks to the people. Kylo doesn’t even really whine once in the movie, but he just looks whiny to people because of his soft hair, long face and puppy eyes. He might be tall and broad-shouldered but the face is what people tend to pay attention to the most. In general, I don’t think that male viewers object to male characters crying or showing emotions as long as they look masculine enough. I’ve never heard anyone call Fassbender’s Magneto “weak” because he gets emotional and cries in First Class and Apocalypse.

Saracene wrote:To be fair, the reason many fans expected Kylo to be a talking Darth Maul is because that’s the expectations Disney themselves have created before the movie’s release. None of the promotional material was selling Kylo as a complicated villain suitable for our times, they were selling him as a one-dimensional threat to our heroes with a scary mask and a cool lightsaber. Of course it was partly in order to hide his heritage and surprise the audience, but I suspect it also had a lot to do with them thinking that the image they were presenting would go down much better with the male audience. One-dimensional bad guys have their place in stories (and SW) and can be fun/cool, and while many people appreciated the bait-and-switch, others were disappointed that they weren’t getting the character they were promised. Kylo’s real face is a great dramatic move, but does it kill the cool bad*** vibe on the spot? Yes it does. But while it’s understandable that some fans might be disappointed, being in denial about the kind of character we got is rather silly. He’s not going to be a one-dimensional bad guy because that’s what some fans want.

Oh and when some fans complain about Kylo being “whiny” or “weak” I think 90% of it has to do with the way his face looks to the people. Kylo doesn’t even really whine once in the movie, but he just looks whiny to people because of his soft hair, long face and puppy eyes. He might be tall and broad-shouldered but the face is what people tend to pay attention to the most. In general, I don’t think that male viewers object to male characters crying or showing emotions as long as they look masculine enough. I’ve never heard anyone call Fassbender’s Magneto “weak” because he gets emotional and cries in First Class and Apocalypse.

@Saracene
Maybe the message here is fans need to let go of promotional material? They need to let go of Disney marketing Finn and Rey as the cute duo, Finn as the Jedi/Force Sensitive and Kylo as the one-dimensional bad guy. The movie trumps any and all pre-release marketing, but fans just can't seem to accept that. I've even seen people try to use marketing as evidence when the film itself proved the complete opposite! And perhaps some will disagree, but IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with the way the film was advertised. "Bait-and-switch sounds" so negative while in reality we're talking about normal marketing/trailer gimmicks used to conceal story and character secrets.

Saracene wrote:To be fair, the reason many fans expected Kylo to be a talking Darth Maul is because that’s the expectations Disney themselves have created before the movie’s release. None of the promotional material was selling Kylo as a complicated villain suitable for our times, they were selling him as a one-dimensional threat to our heroes with a scary mask and a cool lightsaber. Of course it was partly in order to hide his heritage and surprise the audience, but I suspect it also had a lot to do with them thinking that the image they were presenting would go down much better with the male audience. One-dimensional bad guys have their place in stories (and SW) and can be fun/cool, and while many people appreciated the bait-and-switch, others were disappointed that they weren’t getting the character they were promised. Kylo’s real face is a great dramatic move, but does it kill the cool bad*** vibe on the spot? Yes it does. But while it’s understandable that some fans might be disappointed, being in denial about the kind of character we got is rather silly. He’s not going to be a one-dimensional bad guy because that’s what some fans want.

Oh and when some fans complain about Kylo being “whiny” or “weak” I think 90% of it has to do with the way his face looks to the people. Kylo doesn’t even really whine once in the movie, but he just looks whiny to people because of his soft hair, long face and puppy eyes. He might be tall and broad-shouldered but the face is what people tend to pay attention to the most. In general, I don’t think that male viewers object to male characters crying or showing emotions as long as they look masculine enough. I’ve never heard anyone call Fassbender’s Magneto “weak” because he gets emotional and cries in First Class and Apocalypse.

@Saracene

I've thought about this, too. I've wondered if this is one reason why they appeared to have ditched the Anakin hair for VIII and had Adam grow out his hair into what appears to be a more natural, low-maintenance-looking style. (Of course, we currently have no idea how his hair will be styled on film.)

Saracene wrote:
Oh and when some fans complain about Kylo being “whiny” or “weak” I think 90% of it has to do with the way his face looks to the people. Kylo doesn’t even really whine once in the movie, but he just looks whiny to people because of his soft hair, long face and puppy eyes. He might be tall and broad-shouldered but the face is what people tend to pay attention to the most. In general, I don’t think that male viewers object to male characters crying or showing emotions as long as they look masculine enough. I’ve never heard anyone call Fassbender’s Magneto “weak” because he gets emotional and cries in First Class and Apocalypse.

@Saracene

That's an interesting point. You may be right, but I actually think that it was the crying + "being torn apart, want to be free of this pain" dialogue  = being conflicted about his evil that made people call him whiny/emo. He expressed being in profound conflict and suffering because it, and then he was beat by someone who everyone expected should be weaker, which was interpreted as incompetence by some. That combination of factors is what I think some people took issue with - not just men, by the way. I have seen women complaining about Kylo being whiny and weak also. -___-

My sense is that if Kylo had cried and lost to Rey but had a scene or two cackling like Palpatine, looking like he was enjoying being bad instead of saying that he was in emotional pain, people would not have called him whiny. Though perhaps you are right that looking soft and pretty and vulnerable in some scenes didn't help his case with a section of the fandom.

Two funny things about this character is that going back and watching the OT really made me notice how even in the middle of a battle sequence, being trapped on an asteroid, trying to storm an Imperial post on Endor, in a garbage chute, or taking off a helmet to hide her identity - his mother always has flawless, no flyaway hair. Even in RotJ where they're supposed to be a guerrilla assault, she's got perfect eyeliner and lip gloss. Which either his appearance is partially a nod to that parent (they're also both FS and can be narrow-minded dogmatists in need of a swift kick in the behind from reality). Or nobody complains when it's a female character being dolled up to look attractive. Also isn't the whole point of the PT to deconstruct this supposedly iron-fisted bad a** heartless villain to show that basically bad things happened (in part) because of youthful hormones and egotism? Between that character and Han's evolution, there's actually some very sneaky commentary on ideals of masculine behavior that probably fly over the heads of the complainers.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Maybe the message here is fans need to let go of promotional material? They need to let go of Disney marketing Finn and Rey as the cute duo, Finn as the Jedi/Force Sensitive and Kylo as the one-dimensional bad guy. The movie trumps any and all pre-release marketing, but fans just can't seem to accept that. I've even seen people try to use marketing as evidence when the film itself proved the complete opposite! And perhaps some will disagree, but IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with the way the film was advertised. "Bait-and-switch sounds" so negative while in reality we're talking about normal marketing/trailer gimmicks used to conceal story and character secrets.

@FrolickingFizzgig

That's my bad, I thought that "bait-and-switch" was a neutral term but I've just looked it up and it is quite negative. There are still some English expressions I'm not 100% clear about

But yeah, promotional material is completely irrelevant once the film is out and it makes zero sense for fans to cling to it.

Saracene wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Maybe the message here is fans need to let go of promotional material? They need to let go of Disney marketing Finn and Rey as the cute duo, Finn as the Jedi/Force Sensitive and Kylo as the one-dimensional bad guy. The movie trumps any and all pre-release marketing, but fans just can't seem to accept that. I've even seen people try to use marketing as evidence when the film itself proved the complete opposite! And perhaps some will disagree, but IMO there's absolutely nothing wrong with the way the film was advertised. "Bait-and-switch sounds" so negative while in reality we're talking about normal marketing/trailer gimmicks used to conceal story and character secrets.

@FrolickingFizzgig

That's my bad, I thought that "bait-and-switch" was a neutral term but I've just looked it up and it is quite negative. There are still some English expressions I'm not 100% clear about

But yeah, promotional material is completely irrelevant once the film is out and it makes zero sense for fans to cling to it.

@Saracene
Don't worry about it at all, it's a term I see used all the time. I go for red-herring myself. That's the trope version I guess, basically a distraction of sorts presented to readers/viewers to make them focus on one thing rather than another. It's pretty normal, but sometimes (on other forums) I used to see fans acting like JJ and the rest of the crew had lied to their faces. Either that or they would maintain that the promotional material and marketing "would not be forgotten" with regards to Finn and Rey (though they weren't advertised as romantic, but whatever). It certainly didn't stop John Boyega from saying they were just friends and that the romance would not be developing that way.

An old article about Rian posting that IG pic of the Jedi robe hanging in front of the rock wall (cave wall?) just showed up in my Facebook feed.

Because I enjoy self-torture and occasionally like to check in on the GA perception of things, I clicked the Comments....nearly everyone in the comments is going on about how Luke is Rey's dad. A few people pointed out JJ's debunking, only to have the Reywalkers jump all over them with JJ's backtrack. A few commenters even seem to buy into the "reincarnated Anakin" theory.

So yeah, you've got a lot of people aware of JJ's debunking but still aren't trusting him because of the Cumberbatch-as-Khan thing.

I think there is also a little catch with GA.
As almost every one among the respectable internet fan comments and blogs (except the minority like MSW) was dead sure on Rey Skywalker after TFA was released - and given the fact that the movie itself did not provide direct and clear answer who was Rey, GA took the explanation of others with presumably "more knowledge on the subject".
The GA would not analyze it to death, they have only their vague experience (that of space SOAP opera) and the first theories which had been floating around in December and January were those of Rey Skywalker.
It does not surprise me at all, truth to be told.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:An old article about Rian posting that IG pic of the Jedi robe hanging in front of the rock wall (cave wall?) just showed up in my Facebook feed.

Because I enjoy self-torture and occasionally like to check in on the GA perception of things, I clicked the Comments....nearly everyone in the comments is going on about how Luke is Rey's dad. A few people pointed out JJ's debunking, only to have the Reywalkers jump all over them with JJ's backtrack. A few commenters even seem to buy into the "reincarnated Anakin" theory.

So yeah, you've got a lot of people aware of JJ's debunking but still aren't trusting him because of the Cumberbatch-as-Khan thing.

@ISeeAnIsland

If the GA is still thinking that way, then we know what the "I am your cousin? boyfriend? father" moment is going to be for them with the next two movies. Although it seems like a lot of people seem to hate JJ on principle, so of course they'll bring up something that happened with a previous movie that has no relationship to this one.

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@BastilaBey

The ones who vehemently do not want Ben Solo redeemed are the ones who are so adamant about Reywalker in spite of the stacked evidence against it. To them, it's the only to salvage the Skywalker family as they do not like what's already given to them. They want the good cousin to cut off the bad cousin's head and be done with it. Nice and neat and in a cute little package.

Without Reywalker, what role does Rey play in the Skywalker saga? The answer is obvious (at least to me and most everyone here), but then some people just choose not to see it. It's not that they can't see it- they just choose not to.

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:An old article about Rian posting that IG pic of the Jedi robe hanging in front of the rock wall (cave wall?) just showed up in my Facebook feed.

Because I enjoy self-torture and occasionally like to check in on the GA perception of things, I clicked the Comments....nearly everyone in the comments is going on about how Luke is Rey's dad. A few people pointed out JJ's debunking, only to have the Reywalkers jump all over them with JJ's backtrack. A few commenters even seem to buy into the "reincarnated Anakin" theory.

So yeah, you've got a lot of people aware of JJ's debunking but still aren't trusting him because of the Cumberbatch-as-Khan thing.

@ISeeAnIsland

If the GA is still thinking that way, then we know what the "I am your cousin? boyfriend? father" moment is going to be for them with the next two movies. Although it seems like a lot of people seem to hate JJ on principle, so of course they'll bring up something that happened with a previous movie that has no relationship to this one.

@snufkin

Yup. I can't say that I wasn't a little surprised at how dead-set these commenters were on Rey being Luke's kid (and these weren't necessarily comments littered with typos and grammar errors, like we typically associate with intellectually challenged people on the internet). One even went so far as to say (and I'm paraphrasing) "that they made it so obvious that she's Luke's kid that they practically hit you over the head with it."

Hmmmmmm....and that doesn't make someone think that maybe she's not Luke's kid? Given all of the misdirection with the marketing for this movie, I'm surprised that so many people are blind to Reywalker being another red herring.

Of course, in this case, the payoff is that she's NOT Luke's kid.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:An old article about Rian posting that IG pic of the Jedi robe hanging in front of the rock wall (cave wall?) just showed up in my Facebook feed.

Because I enjoy self-torture and occasionally like to check in on the GA perception of things, I clicked the Comments....nearly everyone in the comments is going on about how Luke is Rey's dad. A few people pointed out JJ's debunking, only to have the Reywalkers jump all over them with JJ's backtrack. A few commenters even seem to buy into the "reincarnated Anakin" theory.

So yeah, you've got a lot of people aware of JJ's debunking but still aren't trusting him because of the Cumberbatch-as-Khan thing.

@ISeeAnIsland

If the GA is still thinking that way, then we know what the "I am your cousin? boyfriend? father" moment is going to be for them with the next two movies. Although it seems like a lot of people seem to hate JJ on principle, so of course they'll bring up something that happened with a previous movie that has no relationship to this one.

@snufkin

Yup. I can't say that I wasn't a little surprised at how dead-set these commenters were on Rey being Luke's kid (and these weren't necessarily comments littered with typos and grammar errors, like we typically associate with intellectually challenged people on the internet). One even went so far as to say (and I'm paraphrasing) "that they made it so obvious that she's Luke's kid that they practically hit you over the head with it."

Hmmmmmm....and that doesn't make someone think that maybe she's not Luke's kid? Given all of the misdirection with the marketing for this movie, I'm surprised that so many people are blind to Reywalker being another red herring.

Of course, in this case, the payoff is that she's NOT Luke's kid.

@ISeeAnIsland

If the next movie is chaste but she voluntarily goes off with him, then there will be 2 more years of "I can't believe Luke's daughter betrayed him like that! Going off with her evil cousin. She's supposed to kill him!" And then they'll move on to hoping that Leia can do an adult adoption of either Finn or Poe because those Skywalker cousins are such disappointments.