The Last Jedi: Our Reviews and Reactions

The fact that Ben didn't seek help from his parents after Luke's murder attempt is very telling

Darth_marshmallow wrote:The fact that Ben didn't seek help from his parents after Luke's murder attempt is very telling

@Darth_marshmallow

This is messed up on so many levels. All he needed was a bit of care, honesty and love. Not that much to ask from your family and yet it got to this point.

Darth_marshmallow wrote:The fact that Ben didn't seek help from his parents after Luke's murder attempt is very telling

@Darth_marshmallow

Han: There is too much Vader in him.
Leia: My son is gone.
Luke: Hi kid, bye kid

Darth_marshmallow wrote:The fact that Ben didn't seek help from his parents after Luke's murder attempt is very telling

@Darth_marshmallow

yes, you're right! How come this thought never crossed my mind! After Lukes "attempted murder" (from Ben's perspective) - he had his first real "out of control anger tantrum" were he killed half of Luke's students and burned the temple down. How to explain that to your parents?
Leia: "Ben, did you just kill Luke's students and burned the whole place down???"  
Ben: "But MOM!! I woke up and he wanted to slice me up with his lightsaber!"   Tricky

Night Huntress wrote:

Darth_marshmallow wrote:The fact that Ben didn't seek help from his parents after Luke's murder attempt is very telling

@Darth_marshmallow

yes, you're right! How come this thought never crossed my mind! After Lukes "attempted murder" (from Ben's perspective) - he had his first real "out of control anger tantrum" were he killed half of Luke's students and burned the temple down. How to explain that to your parents?
Leia: "Ben, did you just kill Luke's students and burned the whole place down???"  
Ben: "But MOM!! I woke up and he wanted to slice me up with his lightsaber!"   Tricky

@Night Huntress

I forgot about the students

I saw it the second time yesterday....and if anything I loved it more! The problem with Rey and Kylo is at the moment they want different things. She wants Ben Solo to return and save the galaxy, Kylo ... wants Rey. Even taking over as Supreme Leader was an afterthought, I suspect. I'm interested in their visions. What if both turn out to be true? Regarding the students....I actually saw their bodies in the flashback sequence when Luke told Rey about the night Ben left (after Uncle Luke tried to murder him in his bed). Next to the corpses were their lightsabres...it's a blink and you miss it sequence, but they were definitely armed. So Ben didn't murder them, they fought.

motherofpearl1 wrote:I saw it the second time yesterday....and if anything I loved it more! The problem with Rey and Kylo is at the moment they want different things. She wants Ben Solo to return and save the galaxy, Kylo ... wants Rey. Even taking over as Supreme Leader was an afterthought, I suspect. I'm interested in their visions. What if both turn out to be true? Regarding the students....I actually saw their bodies in the flashback sequence when Luke told Rey about the night Ben left (after Uncle Luke tried to murder him in his bed). Next to the corpses were their lightsabres...it's a blink and you miss it sequence, but they were definitely armed. So Ben didn't murder them, they fought.

@motherofpearl1

If I remember correctly, some of the students left with Ben. Wonder why? It seems Luke was a very bad teacher

Darth_marshmallow wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I saw it the second time yesterday....and if anything I loved it more! The problem with Rey and Kylo is at the moment they want different things. She wants Ben Solo to return and save the galaxy, Kylo ... wants Rey. Even taking over as Supreme Leader was an afterthought, I suspect. I'm interested in their visions. What if both turn out to be true? Regarding the students....I actually saw their bodies in the flashback sequence when Luke told Rey about the night Ben left (after Uncle Luke tried to murder him in his bed). Next to the corpses were their lightsabres...it's a blink and you miss it sequence, but they were definitely armed. So Ben didn't murder them, they fought.

@motherofpearl1

If I remember correctly, some of the students left with Ben. Wonder why? It seems Luke was a very bad teacher

@Darth_marshmallow

Darth_marshmallow wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I saw it the second time yesterday....and if anything I loved it more! The problem with Rey and Kylo is at the moment they want different things. She wants Ben Solo to return and save the galaxy, Kylo ... wants Rey. Even taking over as Supreme Leader was an afterthought, I suspect. I'm interested in their visions. What if both turn out to be true? Regarding the students....I actually saw their bodies in the flashback sequence when Luke told Rey about the night Ben left (after Uncle Luke tried to murder him in his bed). Next to the corpses were their lightsabres...it's a blink and you miss it sequence, but they were definitely armed. So Ben didn't murder them, they fought.

@motherofpearl1

If I remember correctly, some of the students left with Ben. Wonder why? It seems Luke was a very bad teacher

@Darth_marshmallow

Well, he certainly things up.

Darth_marshmallow wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I saw it the second time yesterday....and if anything I loved it more! The problem with Rey and Kylo is at the moment they want different things. She wants Ben Solo to return and save the galaxy, Kylo ... wants Rey. Even taking over as Supreme Leader was an afterthought, I suspect. I'm interested in their visions. What if both turn out to be true? Regarding the students....I actually saw their bodies in the flashback sequence when Luke told Rey about the night Ben left (after Uncle Luke tried to murder him in his bed). Next to the corpses were their lightsabres...it's a blink and you miss it sequence, but they were definitely armed. So Ben didn't murder them, they fought.

@motherofpearl1

If I remember correctly, some of the students left with Ben. Wonder why? It seems Luke was a very bad teacher

@Darth_marshmallow

Half of the students[6 of them] believed Ben and left with him, the other loyal to Luke. Not so much straight up murder but probably a fight where Ben and these students who believed him prevailed.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

Darth_marshmallow wrote:
Question for those of you who have seen the movie several times: was Leia aware that Luke tried to kill her son? Is it clear in TLJ?

@Darth_marshmallow

No, it's not. Luke says to Leia that he is sorry before going out facing Ben, but it's not clear what exactly he is sorry for... - of course he feels responsible for Ben's fall, but details of what exactly happened were never mentioned to Leia- at least not in the movie.

I'm not sure it would've made a difference to Leia anyway

@Night Huntress

Speaking of this.
It suddenly hit me like a ton of bricks: How would Han have reacted to the truth on what really happened at Luke's camp.

Han shot first?

@Darth_Awakened

Han would have immediately punched Luke in the face, thereby revealing the hologram immediately, but probably still would have shot the hologram a bunch of times because he would be so furious.

Seriously, everyone wants Luke to come back as a FG, and that's fine. But there will be no warmth there. Han needs to come back. Ben needs that moment of shared affection. He also needs a chance to tell his father he's sorry, and Han needs the chance to say that he should have been stronger when Leia sent Ben to Luke. Ben may be able to move on from his family, but without the Han visit everything will be left bitter-tasting, especially if Leia was supposed to be the one who achieved the emotional connection with Ben.

After 6 days of mulling it over, this is where I am:

There were things about the execution of the movie that I didn't like.  I thought it went for cheap laughs too much.  I thought the introduction of Holdo was kind of bizarre (Poe has never met her? wha?).  I thought it was kind of too jam packed.  Some characters that I liked got relegated to cameos.

That said, after thinking about it, and imagining and conjecturing where they might go in IX, I really love where Rian took the story.  When we were introduced to the OT, there was this romantic "Good guys vs. Bad guys" thing that was really compelling, and in the end, the good guys won.  Then we went to the PT, and we see that the Clone Wars were created by a Sith lord who was playing both sides to destroy the Jedi order and create an Empire.   Now, in the ST, we see that the efforts to vanquish the Empire have failed.  We see Finn and Rose coming face to face with those making huge sums from War.  We see Luke wisely explaining that the Jedi's use of the force as some kind of superpower to fight wars. We see the force sensitive protagonists on both sides reaching out to each other.

Rian is setting up a way to end this war - a third direction.

I wonder.....if Kylo and Rey did get together they could create something good out of the FO....or maybe instead do away with one big galactic government and allow the different worlds to rule themselves. There is one thing I keep thinking about. What if Hux captures Rey and decides to execute her for Snoke's murder - and Kylo steps up and says: "I did it."

Night Huntress wrote:

Darth_marshmallow wrote:The fact that Ben didn't seek help from his parents after Luke's murder attempt is very telling

@Darth_marshmallow

yes, you're right! How come this thought never crossed my mind! After Lukes "attempted murder" (from Ben's perspective) - he had his first real "out of control anger tantrum" were he killed half of Luke's students and burned the temple down. How to explain that to your parents?
Leia: "Ben, did you just kill Luke's students and burned the whole place down???"  
Ben: "But MOM!! I woke up and he wanted to slice me up with his lightsaber!"   Tricky

@Night Huntress

I feel like the events of the academy "massacre" are still very much in question. Because it's starting to sound more like a battle to me than a one-sided slaughter. Who provoked what is still in question, since I doubt a lot of Luke's students were happy when they saw or heard that hut explode and Ben storming out in what was probably a rampage. Especially if Ben had shown signs of darkness before. I'm not sure explanations were allowed in that moment. 

And the circumstances of six of the students following Ben is also interesting. Was Snoke messing with them too? Was Ben working on turning them under Snoke's command or guidance before the whole thing blew up? Did they believe Ben because they had their own reasons for questioning Luke? Who knows! Luke certainly doesn't, since it doesn't seem like anybody was left alive to tell the story. By the time he excavated himself, everything had already gone to hell.

ZioRen wrote:

Night Huntress wrote:

Darth_marshmallow wrote:The fact that Ben didn't seek help from his parents after Luke's murder attempt is very telling

@Darth_marshmallow

yes, you're right! How come this thought never crossed my mind! After Lukes "attempted murder" (from Ben's perspective) - he had his first real "out of control anger tantrum" were he killed half of Luke's students and burned the temple down. How to explain that to your parents?
Leia: "Ben, did you just kill Luke's students and burned the whole place down???"  
Ben: "But MOM!! I woke up and he wanted to slice me up with his lightsaber!"   Tricky

@Night Huntress

I feel like the events of the academy "massacre" are still very much in question. Because it's starting to sound more like a battle to me than a one-sided slaughter. Who provoked what is still in question, since I doubt a lot of Luke's students were happy when they saw or heard that hut explode and Ben storming out in what was probably a rampage. Especially if Ben had shown signs of darkness before. I'm not sure explanations were allowed in that moment. 

And the circumstances of six of the students following Ben is also interesting. Was Snoke messing with them too? Was Ben working on turning them under Snoke's command or guidance before the whole thing blew up? Did they believe Ben because they had their own reasons for questioning Luke? Who knows! Luke certainly doesn't, since it doesn't seem like anybody was left alive to tell the story. By the time he excavated himself, everything had already gone to hell.

@ZioRen

I think it had to be an armed battle, because if it was some kind of all-out slaughter, Ben and his friends would have moved heaven and earth to find Luke and make sure he was dead. They didn't do that, which tells me that it was a chaotic scene where Ben and his friends literally ran off into the night. Also the Visual Dictionary says that news of the fall of the temple didn't get out for a long time. For all we know, Kylo and his friends may have been on their own for a while before Snoke brought Ben in. The friends have been mentioned by Luke and now the databank. There is more backstory to be told and those friends are going to play a role.

I can't stay away. I saw it a fourth time last night

The day after opening night was traumatic for me. I was so broken hearted. I figured that might be the case, but this movie really affected me. I wish I had bought Battlefront II after all, so that I could kick some a** as Kylo. I felt so bad that sympathy is built up for Ben in this story, only for Kylo to have to go ballistic on everyone at the end. It was painful to watch the first time around, but subsequent viewing allowed me to find the humor in it, as well as the hope sprinkled around in the film.

When I heard him say "I'll destroy her," this time, the tone in his voice made me think "Aww...ReyRey still matters to him."

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I can't stay away. I saw it a fourth time last night

The day after opening night was traumatic for me. I was so broken hearted. I figured that might be the case, but this movie really affected me. I wish I had bought Battlefront II after all, so that I could kick some a** as Kylo. I felt so bad that sympathy is built up for Ben in this story, only for Kylo to have to go ballistic on everyone at the end. It was painful to watch the first time around, but subsequent viewing allowed me to find the humor in it, as well as the hope sprinkled around in the film.

When I heard him say "I'll destroy her," this time, the tone in his voice made me think "Aww...ReyRey still matters to him."

@Cowgirlsamurai

That's the thing. Kylo/Ben goes *that nuts* because he still loves these people very much, including Luke. Every time I see him when he has all the guns on Luke and he says "again", I want to cry my eyes out.  Every bit of that is unbelievable hurt. He knows that he is a monster. He knows that a person that he loved and trusted helped put him on that road.  He loves these people, but they hurt him so much that it's like he can barely bear to even look at them or to even know they exist somewhere. Crait is like a metaphor for Ben. Kylo is the thin veneer of sand, but brush it aside and you get the raw burning wound that is Ben Solo.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I can't stay away. I saw it a fourth time last night

The day after opening night was traumatic for me. I was so broken hearted. I figured that might be the case, but this movie really affected me. I wish I had bought Battlefront II after all, so that I could kick some a** as Kylo. I felt so bad that sympathy is built up for Ben in this story, only for Kylo to have to go ballistic on everyone at the end. It was painful to watch the first time around, but subsequent viewing allowed me to find the humor in it, as well as the hope sprinkled around in the film.

When I heard him say "I'll destroy her," this time, the tone in his voice made me think "Aww...ReyRey still matters to him."

@Cowgirlsamurai

That's the thing. Kylo/Ben goes *that nuts* because he still loves these people very much, including Luke. Every time I see him when he has all the guns on Luke and he says "again", I want to cry my eyes out. Every bit of that is unbelievable hurt. He knows that he is monster. He knows that a person that he loved and trusted helped put him on that road. He loves these people, but they hurt him so much that it's like he care barely bear to even look at them or to even know they exist somewhere. Crait is like a metaphor for Ben. Kylo is the thin veneer of sand, but brush it aside and you get the raw burning wound that is Ben Solo.

@SoloSideCousin

Please do a podcast episode with me on this.

MeadowofAshes wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I can't stay away. I saw it a fourth time last night

The day after opening night was traumatic for me. I was so broken hearted. I figured that might be the case, but this movie really affected me. I wish I had bought Battlefront II after all, so that I could kick some a** as Kylo. I felt so bad that sympathy is built up for Ben in this story, only for Kylo to have to go ballistic on everyone at the end. It was painful to watch the first time around, but subsequent viewing allowed me to find the humor in it, as well as the hope sprinkled around in the film.

When I heard him say "I'll destroy her," this time, the tone in his voice made me think "Aww...ReyRey still matters to him."

@Cowgirlsamurai

That's the thing. Kylo/Ben goes *that nuts* because he still loves these people very much, including Luke. Every time I see him when he has all the guns on Luke and he says "again", I want to cry my eyes out. Every bit of that is unbelievable hurt. He knows that he is monster. He knows that a person that he loved and trusted helped put him on that road. He loves these people, but they hurt him so much that it's like he care barely bear to even look at them or to even know they exist somewhere. Crait is like a metaphor for Ben. Kylo is the thin veneer of sand, but brush it aside and you get the raw burning wound that is Ben Solo.

@SoloSideCousin

Please do a podcast episode with me on this.

@MeadowofAshes

I would be happy to! Email me about it. It will have to be after the holidays though. I am woefully behind on everything holiday related. Ben is too awesome and distracts me.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I can't stay away. I saw it a fourth time last night

The day after opening night was traumatic for me. I was so broken hearted. I figured that might be the case, but this movie really affected me. I wish I had bought Battlefront II after all, so that I could kick some a** as Kylo. I felt so bad that sympathy is built up for Ben in this story, only for Kylo to have to go ballistic on everyone at the end. It was painful to watch the first time around, but subsequent viewing allowed me to find the humor in it, as well as the hope sprinkled around in the film.

When I heard him say "I'll destroy her," this time, the tone in his voice made me think "Aww...ReyRey still matters to him."

@Cowgirlsamurai

That's the thing. Kylo/Ben goes *that nuts* because he still loves these people very much, including Luke. Every time I see him when he has all the guns on Luke and he says "again", I want to cry my eyes out.  Every bit of that is unbelievable hurt. He knows that he is a monster. He knows that a person that he loved and trusted helped put him on that road.  He loves these people, but they hurt him so much that it's like he care barely bear to even look at them or to even know they exist somewhere. Crait is like a metaphor for Ben. Kylo is the thin veneer of sand, but brush it aside and you get the raw burning wound that is Ben Solo.

@SoloSideCousin

I know! I've yet to feel anger at Kylo, but I'm still feeling a bit bitter toward Rey at the end, lol. In a way, her actions set him on an even darker path. I just want to yell at the screen, "You should've just given him a hug!"

I have been watching the last scene on Star Wars Leaks, someone obviously recorded it at the theater......when he connects with Rey through the force. She looks at him, you see a glimpse of longing/still cares, he moves forward with bigger puppy eyes and that is when you see Rey get more steely eyed (go to the couch Ben).  She then shuts him off.  There are so many layers in this movie.  I am going to see it again Friday but the ending gave me hope.  Right in that little few second scene, they still care for each other.  Kylo needs to get his act together and so does Rey. I feel in that scene we see Ben Solo not Kylo.

Birdwoman wrote:I have been watching the last scene on Star Wars Leaks, someone obviously recorded it at the theater......when he connects with Rey through the force. She looks at him, you see a glimpse of longing/still cares, he moves forward with bigger puppy eyes and that is when you see Rey get more steely eyed (go to the couch Ben).  She then shuts him off.  There are so many layers in this movie.  I am going to see it again Friday but the ending gave me hope.  Right in that little few second scene, they still care for each other.  Kylo needs to get his act together and so does Rey. I feel in that scene we see Ben Solo not Kylo.

@Birdwoman

Maybe I'll sound too revolutionary with the following but I really think at this point after TLJ that Kylo Ren has never existed at all in a sense Darth Vader existed as a former Anakin Skywalker. Kylo Ren is somebody that Ben Solo is trying hard to be - but constantly fails to become.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

SoloSideCousin wrote:

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I can't stay away. I saw it a fourth time last night

The day after opening night was traumatic for me. I was so broken hearted. I figured that might be the case, but this movie really affected me. I wish I had bought Battlefront II after all, so that I could kick some a** as Kylo. I felt so bad that sympathy is built up for Ben in this story, only for Kylo to have to go ballistic on everyone at the end. It was painful to watch the first time around, but subsequent viewing allowed me to find the humor in it, as well as the hope sprinkled around in the film.

When I heard him say "I'll destroy her," this time, the tone in his voice made me think "Aww...ReyRey still matters to him."

@Cowgirlsamurai

That's the thing. Kylo/Ben goes *that nuts* because he still loves these people very much, including Luke. Every time I see him when he has all the guns on Luke and he says "again", I want to cry my eyes out.  Every bit of that is unbelievable hurt. He knows that he is a monster. He knows that a person that he loved and trusted helped put him on that road.  He loves these people, but they hurt him so much that it's like he care barely bear to even look at them or to even know they exist somewhere. Crait is like a metaphor for Ben. Kylo is the thin veneer of sand, but brush it aside and you get the raw burning wound that is Ben Solo.

@SoloSideCousin

I know! I've yet to feel anger at Kylo, but I'm still feeling a bit bitter toward Rey at the end, lol. In a way, her actions set him on an even darker path. I just want to yell at the screen, "You should've just given him a hug!"

@Cowgirlsamurai

Yes! Anything! A "thank you". A "You killed you master for me." Or "please just think about this."

Actually I think her reaction is foreshadowed in the scene where he says, "You think you know everything about me?" And she's says, "I know everything I need to know!" And he answers, "You do? ... You doooo ... you have the same look in your eyes ... etc."

There is so much more to him than she realizes.

Also, I think @motherofpearl1 made the comment that she didn't go for him. She went there so he could stop the war. She loves him, but more subconsciously than consciously,  and she is rather clueless about it. He loves her consciously and actually understands her better than she does him ... and so when he realizes that the Resistance is going to be her priority over her love for him (just like his mother), especially after he literally begs her and after she grabs the lightsaber and leaves him to Hux, his whole brain and heart explodes and chaos ensues and all the brilliant and thoughtful aspects of him go out the window.

I think in IX there so be a series of events that lead to her to realizing she loves him. She will go after him for him and nothing else. He has already made two proposals to her. She rejected them both. She needs to make the third. He has asked for love all his life, now she will ask him ... not because she needs to beg him like he begged her, but because given how wrecked he is, I don't think that he will chase her. I think he will be too emotionally shocked or numb for that.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I have been watching the last scene on Star Wars Leaks, someone obviously recorded it at the theater......when he connects with Rey through the force. She looks at him, you see a glimpse of longing/still cares, he moves forward with bigger puppy eyes and that is when you see Rey get more steely eyed (go to the couch Ben).  She then shuts him off.  There are so many layers in this movie.  I am going to see it again Friday but the ending gave me hope.  Right in that little few second scene, they still care for each other.  Kylo needs to get his act together and so does Rey. I feel in that scene we see Ben Solo not Kylo.

@Birdwoman

Maybe I'll sound too revolutionary with the following but I really think at this point after TLJ that Kylo Ren has never existed at all in a sense Darth Vader existed as a former Anakin Skywalker. Kylo Ren is somebody that Ben Solo is trying hard to be - but constantly fails to become.

@Darth_Awakened

I think Kylo Ren is something Ben created to at least have some control over himself. He couldn't control the monster that was reaching out to him, but if he created a new persona he could be at least in charge of that. But he cant kill the past like that. This movie convinced me that he is Ben, Kylo is becoming more of a shadow, than an actual beast. Rey's pov left him as Ben so it remains. At least for me.

SkyStar wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I have been watching the last scene on Star Wars Leaks, someone obviously recorded it at the theater......when he connects with Rey through the force. She looks at him, you see a glimpse of longing/still cares, he moves forward with bigger puppy eyes and that is when you see Rey get more steely eyed (go to the couch Ben).  She then shuts him off.  There are so many layers in this movie.  I am going to see it again Friday but the ending gave me hope.  Right in that little few second scene, they still care for each other.  Kylo needs to get his act together and so does Rey. I feel in that scene we see Ben Solo not Kylo.

@Birdwoman

Maybe I'll sound too revolutionary with the following but I really think at this point after TLJ that Kylo Ren has never existed at all in a sense Darth Vader existed as a former Anakin Skywalker. Kylo Ren is somebody that Ben Solo is trying hard to be - but constantly fails to become.

@Darth_Awakened

I think Kylo Ren is something Ben created to at least have some control over himself. He couldn't control the monster that was reaching out to him, but if he created a new persona he could be at least in charge of that. But he cant kill the past like that. This movie convinced me that he is Ben, Kylo is becoming more of a shadow, than an actual beast. Rey's pov left him as Ben so it remains. At least for me.

@SkyStar

I saw it the same way you did.

SkyStar wrote:

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Birdwoman wrote:I have been watching the last scene on Star Wars Leaks, someone obviously recorded it at the theater......when he connects with Rey through the force. She looks at him, you see a glimpse of longing/still cares, he moves forward with bigger puppy eyes and that is when you see Rey get more steely eyed (go to the couch Ben).  She then shuts him off.  There are so many layers in this movie.  I am going to see it again Friday but the ending gave me hope.  Right in that little few second scene, they still care for each other.  Kylo needs to get his act together and so does Rey. I feel in that scene we see Ben Solo not Kylo.

@Birdwoman

Maybe I'll sound too revolutionary with the following but I really think at this point after TLJ that Kylo Ren has never existed at all in a sense Darth Vader existed as a former Anakin Skywalker. Kylo Ren is somebody that Ben Solo is trying hard to be - but constantly fails to become.

@Darth_Awakened

I think Kylo Ren is something Ben created to at least have some control over himself. He couldn't control the monster that was reaching out to him, but if he created a new persona he could be at least in charge of that. But he cant kill the past like that. This movie convinced me that he is Ben, Kylo is becoming more of a shadow, than an actual beast. Rey's pov left him as Ben so it remains. At least for me.

@SkyStar

Oh, d***. You just made me realize that "can't kill the past," also means that as much as he tries, he'll never kill Ben Solo.