Re: Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic

by **Darth Dementor** Wed 30 Mar 2016, 9:33 pm

The best comment I read in regards to this whole phenomenon was "if you ship Reylo over Pinnrey your racist. And if you ship Pinnrey over Storm pilot your anti gay and homophobic. Basically every ship has its problems so just let folks ship in piece." I'm sure I'm paraphrasing a bit but hey its not like I'm writing a dissertation for University on this subject so cut me a break LOL.

by vaderito Wed 30 Mar 2016, 9:35 pm

@SoloSideCousin

But where the article becomes spineless is in the subtle accusation of racism. You know why Finn/Rey are not popular? Not because America and Canada are oh so racist, but because Finn is boring. And why is he boring? Why does he not get a fraction of the characterization of Kylo Ren? Why doesn't the first black SW lead not even get a Peeta-like treatment when the character's background calls for it? Why is he so safe and perfect and boring like that goofy "just a friend" guy from next door? The answers to those questions are not in control of the Reylos. Those decisions were made by the writers and the studio, not Reylos. Was it just a case that just fell too in love with Kylo Ren? Was Finn's character always slated for cutesy and boring no matter who played him or would he have been edgier had Logan Lerman played him? Do the studios underestimate the tolerance of the audience or do they have data mining that tells them Finn must be perfect and cutesy or people on all kinds of sides will lose their minds? I don't know those answers. Those are the kinds of real and raw questions an Atlantic writer could explore, especially in light of the Oscar controversy. It's the author's job to do that deep work, but instead he/ she is lazy and hints some Reylos might be racists when they are actually shipping the more interesting and full-bodied character for Rey. The author already knows this, because there is mention of Kylo and Rey being the most exciting characters, but besides this line there is very little acknockledgement. It's just easier for the author to not open these doors ... because first, that would take a lot of work, and secondly, who has more power, studio execs who have power regarding later interviews or a bunch of women shipping Reylo.

Brilliant. I love the whole post but this should slapped onto antis computer screens as a reminder before they start their keyboard warrior crusade against our ship that even they consider far more compelling and fascinating since they spend more time obsessing about it.

by Camaro Wed 30 Mar 2016, 9:54 pm

@Ohtze, thanks for sharing that convo here. I was genuinely curious as to what had transpired during those interviews and if they felt that they had been adequately portrayed. I also wondered whether they had contacted you.

I'm a bit torn about this article, but on the whole I think it's a good thing. It could have been far worse and damaging. I hate the title because it basically pins reylo under the 50 SOG shadow. That property is so controversial and badly viewed that it doesn't do the fandom any favors. I mean, I get why he did it. He's using 50 Shades of Rey both as a clever play on words and as a starting point to present the topic. But I really wish he hadn't made that choice. It honestly made me cringe, which was weird because I was also excited so I had major emotional confusion there for a while. I still have some of it TBH.

Having said that, the tone wasn't condescending, but the piece is definitely too short and simplistic. I think he could have delved deeper and not centered the article so much around fanfic. As a fellow writer, I applaud Ricca and LS for creating such a succesful piece. It's no easy feat engaging an audience and writing an almost 200k word story. Honestly, hats the effing off, because it's all done for love. But it would have been super neat if Kornhaber had also contacted people who aren't necessarily fanfic writers but regular fans, or meta writers. The latter come at it from a perspective that isn't so centered around fantasy and wish fulfillment, but more rooted in literary or film analysis.

Anywho... I'll take it because it's The Atlantic after all, and it at least validates the ship as something worth noting and talking about - not just sneering at. I particularly liked how it went to great lengths to contrast it with Finnrey and explain how much more popular and compelling it is. For the uninitiated, Reylo has now been outed as the No. 1 het ship. I think that point was driven home pretty clearly. I would love it if someone, preferably a capable female journalist, wrote a response divorcing the idea from anything dealing with 50 Shades. I think the fandom has so much more to say.

by vaderito Wed 30 Mar 2016, 9:58 pm

Ohtze wrote:@vaderito, I'm not the main mod for this forum (that would be @Airemyn), but please remember the forum rules against personal attacks (attacks against the poster/shipper instead of the theory are not allowed, see: [redacted] comment). Yes, this includes people we disagree with. I would prefer if you edited your comment yourself, but I leave this decision up to Airemyn and the admins, @Berhan, @Darth Rowan @MoonlitMoss.

Thanks.

Changed into antis. No worries, thanks for reminder.

by Ohtze Wed 30 Mar 2016, 10:00 pm

vaderito wrote:
Ohtze wrote:@vaderito, I'm not the main mod for this forum (that would be @Airemyn), but please remember the forum rules against personal attacks (attacks against the poster/shipper instead of the theory are not allowed, see: [redacted] comment). Yes, this includes people we disagree with. I would prefer if you edited your comment yourself, but I leave this decision up to Airemyn and the admins, @Berhan, @Darth Rowan @MoonlitMoss.

Thanks.

Changed into antis. No worries, thanks for reminder.

Thank you @vaderito. Much obliged Smile

by vaderito Wed 30 Mar 2016, 10:05 pm

Ohtze wrote:

Thank you @vaderito. Much obliged

You're welcome. Cheek kiss

BTW, new smilies are Jumping

by ashesforfoxes Wed 30 Mar 2016, 10:12 pm

Ohtze wrote:
Little-Scribbler: It's so important to me!!
Trebia: WOMEN CREATING FOR WOMEN

So as you can see, most of what was actually discussed did not make it into the article. There's a bit of a confirmation bias going on here. I know it rankles, but it's not their fault if The Atlantic chose to portray them a certain way.

Thanks for sharing this conversation, @ohtze . . . I'm ambivalent about the article because while I really, really appreciate that the author took the time to research the 'ship and two of it's best contributors (I'm still over here waiting for Ja'ak to get updated, goddamnit) and did touch upon the fact that fan-fiction has been something of a "sanctuary" for women fans and writers to have an outlet for their stories, I think it might have been better if they looked at the bigger picture. I don't think "Reylo" is wish fulfillment at all--it's a completely reasonable interpretation of the movie that has been marginalized for the sake of a status quo that is decidedly old guard/male fandom. I really don't have an expectation for the romantic element as much as I want the well-supported theory that these two characters were written as a spiritual balancing act to be considered on par with others. Every podcast, blog, article, fan-theory etc. I read completely ignores this dynamic or marginalizes it as family. I've found a safe haven in the reylo fandom but what I'm really hoping for is that we can espouse these ideas to a general audience without being sidelined as "teenage girl fantasy".

That said, I've been telling myself its probably for the best, because its a twist they won't see coming. And why ruin it for everyone else? This article will be something to look back on and smile about. And its kind of a feather in the cap for the legitimacy of the fandom and its popularity. You can be sure there will be more stuff to follow after this as the idea gains traction, especially after the home release.

Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic - Page 2 Hold-o10

by SoloSideCousin Wed 30 Mar 2016, 10:18 pm

SoloSideCousin wrote:Listen, it was not my intention to "personally attack" your friends, and I actually don't think I did actually attack them. I think I criticized them. I think I have the right to say that they didn't come across as having very persuasive arguments without it being deemed a personal attack. But I guess I was too flippant about it and didn't need to criticize their discourse style. You also make an excellent point that they were edited by someone else, and in my fired up writing while in a state of low blood sugar and sinus headache I didn't even think of that, when I absolutely should have. That was a huge blind spot on my part. For that reason and the others stated, I am sorry for offending you and them.

@SoloSideCousin Don't worry. I'm not offended at all, just cautioning against it (there were a few comments in there that came close, but didn't edge over the line imo. I also feel it's good to have my personal connections/biases laid out in this instance). As you so aptly pointed out, there are a few problems with this article, specifically with what they chose to highlight vs. what they did not, and who they chose to talk to (see: all fanfic writers, and no meta authors, etc). The people who were interviewed were hit by this bias as well.

You definitely have a right to say the writers didn't come across as persuasive in their argument. That's a valid point. All I'm trying to point out in return is that if they didn't come across as persuasive, it might be due to editing, and we shouldn't always take these things at face value. Sorry if my words were muddled in this.

by Mana Wed 30 Mar 2016, 10:33 pm

I'm offended by the whole Fifty Shades of Grey thing too. In this day and age when people think 'romance' they think of Fifty shades and Twilight. If a romance between Kylo and Rey is endgame they've definitely set up a foundation for something that could change people's viewpoints about the portrayal of 'romance' in movies, because nothing like this has ever been done before and there have never been characters like Kylo and Rey...

by Ohtze Wed 30 Mar 2016, 10:50 pm

Camaro wrote:@Ohtze, thanks for sharing that convo here. I was genuinely curious as to what had transpired during those interviews and if they felt that they had been adequately portrayed. I also wondered whether they had contacted you.

I contacted them. There were some quotes in there that made me go "huh" and I wanted to get the whole picture before I jumped to any conclusions.

Camaro wrote: I'm a bit torn about this article, but on the whole I think it's a good thing. It could have been far worse and damaging. I hate the title because it basically pins reylo under the 50 SOG shadow. That property is so controversial and badly viewed that it doesn't do the fandom any favors. I mean, I get why he did it. He's using 50 Shades of Rey both as a clever play on words and as a starting point to present the topic. But I really wish he hadn't made that choice.

I have mixed feelings about this as well. Like the article could have been far worse, but that title does a lot of damage. A lot. It diminishes the literary and critical analysis that's been going on in regards to TFA and kind of undoes a lot of the balance that the article strove towards. I could write a whole meta on how/why this title was a poor move.

Camaro wrote: Having said that, the tone wasn't condescending, but the piece is definitely too short and simplistic. I think he could have delved deeper and not centered the article so much around fanfic.

Ngl I don't think we're going to get something deeper than this from The Atlantic, but that's just my personal perception of the paper (it could be misinformed).

ashesforfoxes wrote:Thanks for sharing this conversation, @ohtze . . . I'm ambivalent about the article because while I really, really appreciate that the author took the time to research the 'ship and two of it's best contributors (I'm still over here waiting for Ja'ak to get updated, goddamnit) and did touch upon the fact that fan-fiction has been something of a "sanctuary" for women fans and writers to have an outlet for their stories, I think it might have been better if they looked at the bigger picture. I don't think "Reylo" is wish fulfillment at all--it's a completely reasonable interpretation of the movie that has been marginalized for the sake of a status quo that is decidedly old guard/male fandom... I've found a safe haven in the reylo fandom but what I'm really hoping for is that we can espouse these ideas to a general audience without being sidelined as "teenage girl fantasy".

^This basically sums up my opinion on the article (and events that have transpired elsewhere) in it's entirety.

by naberrie93 Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:07 pm

I gonna say something.
The article is not bad... but I don't take it too seriously.
It is written for sell... That's all. they want to create controversy... for that reason, the title, references of 50 shades of grey, mentions of rape and comments from the fans. Maybe this guy wanted to write an article about how popular Reylo is but his editor asked from something more itchy because is unusually long. Shocked

But it's okay... I think. Reylo is not invisible

by Ohtze Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:09 pm

naberrie93 wrote:I gonna say something.
The article is not bad... but I don't take it too seriously.

I agree. Like maybe its because my standards for this were really low, but it could have been way worse, and I really do appreciate the balance in it. I'm just like... I dunno, conflicted, I guess. I have very mixed feelings about it.

by Camaro Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:22 pm

Ohtze wrote: I could write a whole meta on how/why this title was a poor move.

If you did, that'd be great. And it'd be awesome to have a response from a journalist on an equally visible and relatively respectable site but I know I ask for too much. :/

It's such a disservice, that title. It paints the whole topic in an unfavorable light from the get go. So yeah, I continue to feel really torn about it. It wasn't awful, but 50 Shades is far, far from what the vast majority of the reylo fandom wants from this pairing. I should know, I read all the books and watched the movie and I've been a part of the romance community for a while now. I also got interviewed for a book on the matter. I have my personal opinion about it, but to the general public, Fifty is basically synonymous with trashy romance, abusive relationships and archaic gender roles, light years away from what reylo is about.

by Ohtze Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:30 pm

Camaro wrote:
Ohtze wrote: I could write a whole meta on how/why this title was a poor move.

If you did, that'd be great. And it'd be awesome to have a response from a journalist on an equally visible and relatively respectable site but I know I ask for too much. :/

I want to, but honestly my schedule is super full until after May, and by then some new think piece might come along. Laugh

by Camaro Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:33 pm

Ohtze wrote:
I want to, but honestly my schedule is super full until after May, and by then some new think piece might come along.

Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic - Page 2 350

by Ohtze Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:41 pm

Camaro wrote:
Ohtze wrote:
I want to, but honestly my schedule is super full until after May, and by then some new think piece might come along.

Basically to write long-form meta I need to be super motivated. Death and the Maiden came about because people kept telling me I was seeing things, and I was like no, no, no *pulls out giant, doctoral thesis, papers falling all over the floor* let me show you *crushing desk beneath the weight* I have proof-

Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic - Page 2 Tumblr_inline_o1rmoiUSfX1rgz8jq_1280

Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic - Page 2 Tumblr_inline_o1rmoiUSfX1rgz8jq_1280

by Camaro Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:50 pm

@Ohtze LOL... is it bad that I'm kind of happy they were pestering you though, because otherwise Death and the Maiden would have never been born. And now look at it... referenced in an article on The Atlantic. I bet you didn't see that one coming.

Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic - Page 2 A2QJ3os

Reylo spotlighted by The Atlantic - Page 2 A2QJ3os

by Force22 Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:53 pm

Ohtze wrote: Death and the Maiden came about because people kept telling me I was seeing things, and I was like no, no, no *pulls out giant, doctoral thesis, papers falling all over the floor* let me show you *crushing desk beneath the weight* I have proof-

Seeing things... yeah, it annoys me.

But hey, it's a movie, aren't we supposed to see things?
Better than not seeing...

So yes, we are seeing things, but it's because they are there.

Now @Ohtze, about the fanfic writers, my comment is that the article chose to portray Reylo as a fanfiction phenomenon, which it is, yes, but it's way more than that. They could have spoken to people from different sections of the fandom, but chose not to.

by Ohtze Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:57 pm

Camaro wrote:@Ohtze LOL... is it bad that I'm kind of happy they were pestering you though, because otherwise Death and the Maiden would have never been born. And now look at it... referenced in an article on The Atlantic. I bet you didn't see that one coming.

I definitely did not. Had a spit take this morning for sure.

Force22 wrote:Now @Ohtze, about the fanfic writers, my comment is that the article chose to portray Reylo as a fanfiction phenomenon, which it is, yes, but it's way more than that. They could have spoken to people from different sections of the fandom, but chose not to.

@Force22 oh, I definitely agree. And I wish they had. But as mentioned before, I think they were going for a particular angle (one that didn't include meta, except as a footnote).

by Rimfaxe96 Thu 31 Mar 2016, 9:40 am

I'd just like to mention that Reylo is basically accepted or was at the very least perceived by the German general audience (maybe because of Kylo's at times quite gentle German voice synchronization?). Like, in the German Facebook page, they're calling Kylo out on his interest in Rey in any post that involves him. It's kind of bizarre to see a SW crowd not fighting over this topic to be honest.

by vaderito Thu 31 Mar 2016, 9:48 am

Rimfaxe96 wrote:I'd just like to mention that Reylo is basically accepted or was at the very least perceived by the German general audience (maybe because of Kylo's at times quite gentle German voice synchronization?). Like, in the German Facebook page, they're calling Kylo out on his interest in Rey in any post that involves him. It's kind of bizarre to see a SW crowd not fighting over this topic to be honest.

No SJW Googles and Rey Skywalker Goggles, no fight. It's just an American thing.

by BastilaBey Thu 31 Mar 2016, 9:53 am

Ohtze wrote:
Camaro wrote:
Ohtze wrote:
I want to, but honestly my schedule is super full until after May, and by then some new think piece might come along.

Basically to write long-form meta I need to be super motivated. Death and the Maiden came about because people kept telling me I was seeing things, and I was like no, no, no *pulls out giant, doctoral thesis, papers falling all over the floor* let me show you *crushing desk beneath the weight* I have proof-

That picture of Charlie is all of us. So good.

by ashesforfoxes Thu 31 Mar 2016, 11:23 am

@Camaro if it's any consolation I am working (slowly but surely) on a manifesto for the fandom with a whole section on its trivialization. In the context of modern views on the topic vs. historic treatment of women's work there are some great articles I'll be linking which basically nail down how using the most controversial examples within a subset of literature to define the whole and its audience is another form of marginalization and dismissal of the literary value of the genre.

by vaderito Thu 31 Mar 2016, 11:37 am

ashesforfoxes wrote:@Camaro if it's any consolation I am working (slowly but surely) on a manifesto for the fandom with a whole section on its trivialization. In the context of modern views on the topic vs. historic treatment of women's work there are some great articles I'll be linking which basically nail down how using the most controversial examples within a subset of literature to define the whole and its audience is another form of marginalization and dismissal of the literary value of the genre.

can't wait to read it!

by Ohtze Thu 31 Mar 2016, 11:41 am

vaderito wrote:
ashesforfoxes wrote:@Camaro if it's any consolation I am working (slowly but surely) on a manifesto for the fandom with a whole section on its trivialization. In the context of modern views on the topic vs. historic treatment of women's work there are some great articles I'll be linking which basically nail down how using the most controversial examples within a subset of literature to define the whole and its audience is another form of marginalization and dismissal of the literary value of the genre.

can't wait to read it!

SAME. I eagerly look forward to this one, and will get much satisfaction out of it, I think.

by Sponsored content