Official TROS Spoilers discussion

I had no problem with Luke’s portrayal in TLJ, but I agree that it would help if Luke’s horror at what Ben would become and do was explained by something we the audience also saw. Even if it’s something like a terrible vision of a future where Luke sees the galaxy burn and all his friends die.

Was listening to Blast Points' podcast episode on the TROS art book. But the thing that stuck out the most was something they mentioned about the VD. Maybe I just missed this when it came out, because I avoided the forum and muted a bunch of people in the week plus surrounding the TROS release. They said the VD had no images of Palpatine, and no mention of Rey Palpatine. I get that the VD generally doesn't spoil the whole movie, but the TLJ one was where we first learned of the force bond, and the Rey Palpatine reveal was not very far into TROS. Combined with the lack of Palp pictures. It's just so weird.

More things about the art book: There's a garbage planet where Finn finds a sibling, and the people there know of some weakness the FO has that can be used to defeat them. Makes me think of what could have been with Jannah. I haven't heard anyone mention Finn being FS, did they add that while filming?

The podcasters note parallels between the Coruscant/Oracle concept stuff and the Exogol/Palpatine stuff we actually got. Once again, this makes me sad.

There was an army of alien starship pilots that show up for the third act, in contrast the fleet of ships we got, though the fleet was in the artwork from very early on. Weirdly, "Poe's spotty past" was also present from very early on.

There was a cat-like lady that gives the main cast her ship the Spitfire, this sort of turned into Ochi’s ship. Apparently the Ochi stuff was very confusing. Combined with how much of the mcguffin stuff they made up on set, I'm not surprised.

Terrio says he’d never rewritten a movie as much as this one. That's not an inherently bad thing, but it would seem it did very much turn into a bad thing in this case.

Check out what they say here:

https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/features/1115597-cs-soapbox-how-does-rise-of-skywalker-set-up-episode-10
Scroll down to their description of Rey. Then reach for a sickbag.

"history will not repeat itself and all these characters have grown" WHAT?! R U for real?! Do they actually believe themselves? This has got to be the joke of the year. No, history does indeed repeat itself because they decided to go the Vader route with Ben and have a female version of Luke. Literally everything is the same except the writing's messier and character motivations are not clearly established or they simply don't matter. Not only did they recycle the story beats from ROTJ, but they also undid any character development that happened in TLJ (for all the characters) and started from square 1 in TROS. Finn was back to screaming after Rey, Rey and Kylo to where they were during their Takodana forest encounter. The conclusion of Rey's journey is an example of character regression rather than growth, her last scene is an almost perfect copy of her intro during the 1st half hour of TFA. So much unnecessary screentime and dialogue was wasted on setting up and trying to explain a badly written plot point, it did not allow for what matters the most, meaningful character interactions, particularly when it comes to Rey and Ben's dynamic, and his redemption.

This whole TLJ slander is honestly repelling, all it does is expose the creators' incompetence. It has its own issues, of course, but it is not the reason why they couldn't deliver a satisfying conclusion. The movie didn't have a single original idea and everything we've heard after its release has only reinforced the notion that they had no clue what they were doing with these characters or the story. I wish these people would just shut up.

Am I the only one who is very tired of the lot of them?

I joked elsewhere, but at this point given the # of times somebody with Bad Robot pops up to utter a galaxy brain statement about the ST or claim it's Rian's fault for what he wrote or Carrie's for dying, the level of passive aggressive behavior on their part makes me think their next step will be a sitcom staple, Bad Robot will challenge T Street (Rian's new production company which includes Kiri Hart) to a grudge softball game.

The fact people are talking about what TROS sets up for Episode 10 is indicative of just how poor of a conclusion it was. People act like it's not the end because it didn't feel like an end at all.

I don't know why the editors and other creator folk keep popping up, since all the major TROS things are out now.

unicorn wrote:@Motherofpearl1

Sorry, no, I have no link.
The line in my post is a copy/paste from BB-Rey´s post above.
An interview from Terrio for The Hollywood Reporter?

@special_cases

Does it matter where and when they undid TLJ? They did it and for me it seems, they did it willingly.

@unicorn

Perhaps they decided to "undo" TLJ in the editing room and via reshoots after watching in the summer what kind of movie they made after principal photography. Maybe "someone" was so concerned about so called "backlash" and public opinion about TLJ that they decided that the earlier version of TROS won't shift "public opinion" of hardcore fans to anything positive. So they decided to "undo" TLJ as the last try to show how Star Wars Brand loves Very Loyal Entitled Fans.

The Very Loyal Entitled Fans who hated TLJ and made no secret of it on social media.

My bro and I are Olde Fans. I was very reluctant to see TFA but actually did so because I got baffled by all the Kylo/Rey fanfic that kept popping up on AoaO.
So, I got the dvd.
I loved it. Yes, there were a couple of moments where there was an obvious nod to the OT, but I still loved it. I loved how they'd introduced a black actor who was a great character in his own right, how the female lead was complex, and unlike Leia awkward, unsure and a nobody(sigh). I liked how they'd developed the OT cast in unexpected ways. But most of all I liked Ben Solo.

I was hooked, because Han and Leia's tortured, broken son was NOTHING like any character I'd seen in SW.
Then came TLJ.
Since the PT I'd never seen the Jedi in the same light. So when TLJ showed us that they had to evolve, I and my brother - who never forgave Obi Wan for leaving Anakin to die in agony rather than putting him out of his misery - were thrilled at the notion of a new type of Jedi who instead of forbidding attachment let Force users marry and have children, who recognised and accepted that dark and light were both sides of the Force, and at the possibility of a Resistance who were not quite as saintly as the original Rebels. I thought TROS would take this film and expand on it, like Rian took TFA and expanded upon it. The idea of a First Order who weren't entirely bad, and a Resistance that weren't entirely good was something hinted at in Rogue One which I really wanted to see in the 'mainstream' SW.
The fact is, no one is an absolute. You don't get purely'good' or 'evil' people very often in real life. I know S. w is a fantasy of course, but it still packs a powerful message. Phasma and Hux were the least likeable characters in the ST, yet they were still given reasons for their unpleasantness. Phasma had grown up a feral child who'd eventually decided that her own survival was paramount, despite what cost. Hux had a childhood where he was ridiculed and abused. I'm not excusing either of them. But....we were given an explanation for their vileness.

TROS completely regressed the entire saga. Even Finn's decision to quit the FO was shown as 'the will of the Force' rather than his character's decency. Poor Ben was rewarded for a lifetime of loneliness, neglect and abuse with a stupid pointless death. And Rey....elevated to the role of 'Force God and the greatest Jedi of all' ....with practically zero effort.
I'm an old fan. I absolutely loathe the direction they have chosen to take. They've undone not only Rian's film, they've undone the entire saga. It was George Lucas himself who revealed the flaws in the Jedi which needed to be addressed. It was those flaws that ultimately destroyed the Order, destroyed Anakin and ushered in a new dark age for the galaxy. TROS has gone right back to the beginning and essentially it's going to start all over again.

I think of the poem at the beginning of the TFA novel.
"The Resolving of Grey Through Refined Jedi Sought".
There's no resolving of grey in TROS. Rey has transformed into the pure, perfect and completely emotionally detached type of Jedi that the order were originally depicted as - and whom George Lucas himself showed as wrong, wrong, wrong.
How this bunch of newbies at LF have seen it as the right way to go is beyond me.

I'd just love to know who took at look at TLJ and found it lacking because among other things, "it needs more Greg Gruenberg" in order to please "the fans." Funny thing though, all these decisions were likely made because the studio's main business lines were going to be conventions, cruise ships, and Galaxy's Edge/Rise of the Resistance so the movie had to not alienate those potential loyal customers and welp all of those are shuttered for the foreseeable future (also blind items have it that Bob I. stepped down when he knew far enough in advance what the pandemic was going to do to the business).

TROS was designed to please the haters on the surface, but the more I see the more I'm convinced it's mostly Abrams and Terrio putting their fanfiction on screen.
It hasn't worked. One TLJ hater who I shall not name wanted Kylo as an unredeemable villain and is a huge Finn fan but he wasn't happy with TROS either. The box office hasn't been what they wanted, and now Covid19 is hitting profits at the theme parks.
They could have made a fortune from comic and book sales if they'd let their most popular character live. But instead they chose to allow a third rate writer who s****** up the DC universe on screen to make his childhood dream reality. And they refuse to accept that.
Frankly, they have created their own mess.

I've been told that Rise of the Resistance is a better TLJ followup than TROS. Given when they placed GE in the timeline, it's a land where TROS never happened, and possibly never will. Rey's even in her TLJ outfit and hair because that's when they filmed it. No wonder some Reylos are still big fans of it.

It's funny but I've just seen the Star Trek spin off Picard on Amazon Prime. And I wish that the writers had come to DLF.

@motherofpearl1
Watched it too, a few days ago. I found it great, even when the last two episodes were sometimes really silly in my opinion.
A critic described it as "when star wars fans make a star trek series". and they are right!
Loved it and cannot wait for the second season.

A german tv station showed the first episode of the madalorian a few weeks ago. I found it okay, but I was not really hooked.
At least not enough to pay for disney+. All the more because after TROS I´m very cautious with their teasing and not delivering in the end.
So I will wait where the story goes and how it ends. Deliver first, get my money then. Or not.

Can't say I blame you, I like it, but for me the Skywalkers that Han Solo WERE Star Wars, now they've been wiped out I don't care anymore. I despise the Jedi order so ll be avoiding PL, and I can't accept Rey as a Skywalker, despite being repeatedly told to,
Even more now she's supposed to be the Twins 'daughter' - ewww.

Remember when we thought that the "trio" looking pensive in the cave was confrontation with Kylo? Good times. Turned out, it was unnecessary snake scene that nobody talks about becasue there's nothing to say. same goes for Ochii ship treasure hunt. Nothing to say, no dramatic weight. Imagine how different things would have been if it was Kylo there perhaps brokering a truce in the wake of Palaptine return.

vaderito wrote:Remember when we thought that the "trio" looking pensive in the cave was confrontation with Kylo? Good times. Turned out, it was unnecessary snake scene that nobody talks about becasue there's nothing to say. same goes for Ochii ship treasure hunt. Nothing to say, no dramatic weight. Imagine how different things would have been if it was Kylo there perhaps brokering a truce in the wake of Palaptine return.

@vaderito

One of the biggest missed opportunities. Like when you have a character like Kylo it's exactly what's needed to make the trio actually have some spark and not just fast talking exposition at each other. For some reason tho they really didn't want anything but a last minute redemption for Ben so he didn't get to talk to anyone. Like literally didn't get to talk at all lol

Mila95 wrote:

One of the biggest missed opportunities. Like when you have a character like Kylo it's exactly what's needed to make the trio actually have some spark and not just fast talking exposition at each other. For some reason tho they really didn't want anything but a last minute redemption for Ben so he didn't get to talk to anyone. Like literally didn't get to talk at all lol

I think that the former goes back to JJ's extreme immitation of OT. Even though the story required that Kylo interacted with the larger number of so-called good guys from Rey's clique, he was kept entirely separate as just Rey's thing because that's how Vader was in ROTJ. Just Luke thing.

As for not talking, I think that they were too busy trying to wrap that mess up somehow so they didn't notice or didn't care at that point that Ben Solo had no lines except Ow, that his death came way too quickly after the kiss for both rey and audience to process anything, that what Finn tried to tell Rey had no payoff, etc. They were just rushing towards the punchline (RRS) thinking that would make everything right. Oops.

I found the Ochii ship treasure hunt so hilarious. I don't think JJ was going for that but I felt it was so ridiculous.

My husband, who is not a big romance movie guy, thought that Kylo dying right after the kiss was bad. He agreed with me about poor Rey getting her first kiss and then the guy immediately dies afterwards.

Someone on another firum astutely noted that trio scenes felt like cheap National Treasure knock off and that's not SW. It just shows JJ never understood what makes SW so appealing.

I actually like the snake scene well enough, maybe because it wasn't really a trio scene, but a Rey one, and it was one of the few moments in the film where she did something that actually felt like her. Maybe it was one of the few things that felt even slightly new. I've seen it brought up a few times mostly to note that it's foreshadowing for the scene with Kylo, which is itself kind of channeling what Kylo will do for Rey. Which is weird, because there's almost no attempt at foreshadowing in TROS whether within itself or in response to TLJ.

But the Ochi thing is ridiculous, unnecessary, and nonsensical, and everyone points that out. Turns out they made that up in later stages or even on set, which explains a lot.

Here's the cover to the Shakespeare version. Some people were initially put off by the title, but others realized it's a reference to The Merry Wives of Windsor, where a popular character who died in an earlier play is alive again for no reason. I know these were never canon and mostly intended to be goofy, but I'm shocked LF would allow that kind of meta commentary, it's hilarious. Beautiful cover too, and very Reylo.

californiagirl wrote:Here's the cover to the Shakespeare version. Some people were initially put off by the title, but others realized it's a reference to The Merry Wives of Windsor, where a popular character who died in an earlier play is alive again for no reason. I know these were never canon and mostly intended to be goofy, but I'm shocked LF would allow that kind of meta commentary, it's hilarious. Beautiful cover too, and very Reylo.

@californiagirl

This is splendid!

The use of Reylo in marketing (book cover), and it's his Ben Solo appearance (vs Kylo) is small step promising.

They're beginning to get it/understand, hopefully.

Oh, and I saw this yesterday. Domnhall is being much more polite and professional than some others, but needless to say, it would seem that he too was underwhelmed by the sidelining of his character. Add him to the pile of unhappy cast members.

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/04/star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-domhnall-gleeson-general-hux-1202223674/

“It would’ve been nice to stick around a little bit longer, for sure,” Gleeson said in a recent phone interview. “It would’ve been nice to see the spy thing play out a little bit, but J.J. [Abrams] knows what he’s doing, and I heard a kind of gasp in the cinema when it happened, so I guess he was right.”

I remember I laughed in cinema just of sheer stupidity of that quick, farcical, parody-worthy send out of an important character, in a movie choke-full of parody-worthy screenwriting and directorial missteps. I certainly didn't pay for that.

Domhnall is such a cutie and a good sport.