Official TROS Spoilers discussion

Darth Snoopy wrote:Hi.  I'll reiterate that The Last Jedi is a strong middle chapter (though I always say I've a love/hate relationship with its third act)  I don't think or know if Rian Johnson ever would have done episode  9, especially after the approx. 3 year process that was pre,  prep & production on TLJ?  It must have been gruelling and exhausting.

The accursed film that is TROS has unfortunately been released unto the Earth. And then 2020 happened.

After a film is released I (personally) think a petition for an alternate script/version is slightly pointless. Mayhaps, a fan petition for something else? I'd love it if Ben Solo could return, but that's a double edged sword - cause you never know how bad things can turn out (*has painful TROS flashbacks and faints*).

@Darth Snoopy

Regarding the 'third act', as far as I'm concerned I absolutely hated the last scene where Rey gives Kylo that supercilious look before slamming the door on him. I also didn't like how he was on his knees before her - people would have hated that if it was the other way around. I also didn't like how Rey's response to Kylo's offer was to reach for the sabre. All she had to do was say 'no'. Why reach for a weapon? She knew he'd never kill her, he killed Snoke for her and fought back to back against the Praetorians with her. But of course I'm a Ben/Kylo stan, so that's how I would feel!
I've said this before but I genuinely think DLF had some influence on how TLJ ended. Reading the novel it's a Kylo lovefest ....until the end, where Rey, up until then very sympathetic to Kylo, suddenly becomes a dispassionate creature who spares him 'because it's the will of the Force'. In an interview with Jason Fry he said he'd 'had' to write it like that because of where the third act might go. Rian 'had' to put in the cringeworthy Rey/Poe scene again for the sake of the third act. This was when Trevorrow was writing it, so if this is the case I suspect Snooty Self Righteous Rey was Trevorrow's idea and they had to go with it.
That saying, I honestly think DLF wanted to erase the Skywalkers all along. They saw a glittering future where Lucas's original characters were a distant memory and everyone was madly in love with their new characters. But if this was the case, they didn't have to kill them off. Why not set the ST 100 years in the future or more, with no mention of Luke, Han and Leia so their fate is for fans to decide - in short, to assume they had a happy ending and move on.
DLF made several big mistakes. First of all, they hired Terrio as scriptwriter for TROS. For all JJ's faults TFA was good because he worked with Lawrence Kasdan. Unfortunately putting him with Terrio was a match made in hell. Both had the same ideas for where the story went, in short they were huge 'twins' fans, and wanted their fanfiction to be 'canon'. Secondly, their 'trio of heroes' were.....dull. Instead of being new and original they were third rate rip offs of Han,Luke and Leia. Oddly, Finn and Rey were good together, Poe and Finn were good together but as a threesome they sucked. I found myself fidgetting in my seat and repeatedly looking at my watch all the way through their scenes and I've NEVER done that in any SW film, even the prequels.
And finally....they wanted us to fall in love with Rey. Instead we fell in love with Kylo. Not Daisy's fault, her character was likeable enough but paled into insignificance next to Kylo. You only had to look at the opinion poll they held on which character people wanted to see the most. And instead of realising this and milking it for it's worth, DLF, the idiots, instead cut Kylo's scenes in order to promote the three bores and bumped Rey up to goddess like status that did absolutely nothing for her character and in fact destroyed her. The least they could have done is changed the ending and have Ben and Rey on Tattoine together. TROS still would have been a bad film, but at least with a positive ending. I would have seen it again, just for that ending. In killing off Ben DLF turned a saga built on hope into a depressing let down, and cost them a character they could have made a fortune out of in spin offs. Their own fault. And their glittering future.....no longer exists, hence their focusing future media on the past, such as Project Luminous and the Mandalorian.
I've just realised it will be 26 days before the anniversary of TROS's release. Which I'll always remember as the day SW died.

According to other forums Rey is training Finn in the Lego holiday special. How many bets Disney will start a series of spin off comics starring those two as a couple? Maybe that's the reason they erased the Finn/Rose relationship, and made Finn Force sensitive therefore giving him a reason to spend 'quality' time with Rey,

They're talking about the top ships and trends on Tumblr this year. Reylo still sticking in the discourse. Antis and perpetually angry dudebros invoke Reylos even when it has nothing to do with whatever they're talking about, it's kind of funny how much they haunt others at all times. https://comicbook.com/irl/news/tumblr-year-in-review-2020-stats-amanda-brennan-interview/#4

Destiel canon? Wow....never thought they'd be brave enough.

I've noticed that on other forums Kylo isn't popular with a lot of posters, both men and women, but I take heart from the fact that prior to the release of DROSS a poll on the Star Wars website revealed over 80% of those asked wanted to see Kylo more than any other character, which must have given them a bit of a shock! I see a lot of Finn fans angry that he wasn't the 'hero' but technically looking at the entire ST there wasn't a hero - other than Rey, who was both hero AND heroine. I suspect JJ wasn't happy that his pet character wasn't as popular among the general public as the last Skywalker so he did everything he could to push Rey at the expense of all the other characters including Kylo. Unfortunately all that did was make her into a silly, unreal Mary Sue.
Bit of advice JJ....you want a character to be loved? Write them better.
Funny thing is Into Darkness, the only JJ Abrams film I liked prior to TFA, has a so called bad guy that's much more interesting than the heroes.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Destiel canon? Wow....never thought they'd be brave enough.

@motherofpearl1

Destial being canon is still up in the air.  Dean never had a chance to respond and Castiel telling Dean he loves him doesn't necessarily mean in a romantic way.  Me and a lot of my friends, both male and female, have said we love each other but in a brotherly/sisterly way.  I think the show intentionally left if ambigous so Team Destial can have something to hang their hat on but leave wiggle room for folks who didn't see it.  I'm just glad the final episode was a satisfying tie up for the series.

Actually I would have been happier if they'd done that with Reylo and kept Ben alive. We paid a lot for that kiss.

To my understanding (it blew up over my timeline), Supernatural ended with only one side declaring love, and both of them dying and not being reunited, which uh, made the fanbase unhappy.

Sounds familiar...

I'm not a Destiel shipper, but the Supernatural finale was terrible. I just really did not want Dean Winchester to die for good, because he's my favorite character. I actually shipped Dean and Jo (Chestervelle), but that ship was sunk in the fifth season when Jo was killed off. Over the past six years or so, I think I've only had three television OTPs end up as endgame (Delena, Captain Swan, and St. Berry).

Can someone please explain to me why movie and tv programme makers are so obsessed with unhappy endings? Okay, if you're telling a story based on fact, or something that's trying to make some kind of message to society fair enough, but fantasy at least should be uplifting - that's why it's called fantasy for crying out loud!! I don't know if anyone here has seen the Nic Cage/Meg Ryan version of City of Angels, but the ending to that film broke me!
One thing I did do, however....as I'd enjoyed it so much I saw it again, but walked out of the cinema just before the ending! I was hoping I'd be able to do that with TROS but the entire film stank so much I just can't watch it in its entirety ever again.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Can someone please explain to me why movie and tv programme makers are so obsessed with unhappy endings? Okay, if you're telling a story based on fact, or something that's trying to make some kind of message to society fair enough, but fantasy at least should be uplifting - that's why it's called fantasy for crying out loud!! I don't know if anyone here has seen the Nic Cage/Meg Ryan version of City of Angels, but the ending to that film broke me!
One thing I did do, however....as I'd enjoyed it so much I saw it again, but walked out of the cinema just before the ending! I was hoping I'd be able to do that with TROS but the entire film stank so much I just can't watch it in its entirety ever again.

@motherofpearl1

Usually, I don't end up disappointed by book authors, but one of the few I was disappointed by, Susan Dennard, said it's because she wanted to make sure that she established real stakes and that's why she killed off the male love interest at the end of her Strange and Deadly series. I also think for many men, especially creators, they see sacrifice in the form of death differently than I do. And then for others, I think it's because they want to be "realistic" and "edgy". Oh, and then there's my favorite reason, man pain used as motivation, like the villian being evil isn't simply enough. They need the pain from losing their girlfriend (or wife). There's always exceptions to the negativity though, even in movies and TV shows. I named a few of the television exceptions, but some of the science fiction movie exceptions are Ready Player One (I haven't read the book series, but I looked for spoilers for the sequel and it seems like the two characters in love get married), In Time, and Jumper.

There were two authors I read a lot of in the 90s, and I absolutely loved their books, but I actually had to stop reading them because the endings were almost always pessimistic. When I was diagnosed with depression and ended up in floods of tears after my favourite character died, I knew I had to stop, which was a pity because the authors were and are amazing.

Regarding SW, what angers me is that they genuinely believed what they were doing was 'hopeful and satisfying'. Rian was the realistic and edgy one, yet TLJ DID end on a hopeful and satisfying note, at least to me. JJ and Terrio I suspect, honestly believed that fans wouldn't mind Kylo dying because:
He redeemed himself by 'giving Rey back to the galaxy' (that line still makes me feel sick)
And....the Skywalkers live on in Rey.

Obviously a huge Rey adorer, he didn't expect that turning her into a virginal goddess who needs no one, despite being essentially Satan's granddaughter, and happily sacrificing the last of the heroes' bloodline to give this amazing paragon of virtue back to her adoring worshippers - the entire galaxy, led by the worshipful Finn, Poe and Chewbacca - would only turn people against both his film and leading lady. Which is a shame because I really liked Rey in the first two films. Unfortunately it was her flaws that made her so likeable, and when he erased them, he destroyed her as a character.

New TROS concept art emerged a couple of days ago. Lots of Palpatine. I still get the impression based on other things that this was sort of a later add. https://www.slashfilm.com/rise-of-skywalker-concept-art/

californiagirl wrote:New TROS concept art emerged a couple of days ago. Lots of Palpatine. I still get the impression based on other things that this was sort of a later add. https://www.slashfilm.com/rise-of-skywalker-concept-art/

@californiagirl

I have the art book and I can say honestly that there isn't any art regarding Palpatine or Ben's death, although plenty showing some cool scenes with Kylo and also some with 'dark' Rey. It looks as if a lot was changed at the last minute.

Seems like Kylo Ren was on TTs today due to Mandalorian. And it was not a good thing. I still can't believe they put such essential information about the character only in the comics!

SPOILER:

Does anyone know how many years after the Empire fell this story is set? Because if it's only a few years Ben was just a kid.

I wouldn't put it past DLF to try and demonise Ben Solo even further. The petty little organisation is still smarting over the fact that Ben/Kylo was far more popular than their dull little Fakewalker.

I wouldn´t put this past them, either.
For me it seems they are trying desperately to paint him as the redeemable only trough death bad guy for a while now to make him Vader 2.0. Maybe to sell him to the Vader stans and grab their money, who knows.
News: most Vader stans I know hate Kylo/Ben and will continue to do it, and not in way that leads them to buy stuff about him like it was with Vader. Wrong target audience, DLF idiots.

motherofpearl1 wrote:Does anyone know how many years after the Empire fell this story is set? Because if it's only a few years Ben was just a kid.

I wouldn't put it past DLF to try and demonise Ben Solo even further. The petty little organisation is still smarting over the fact that Ben/Kylo was far more popular than their dull little Fakewalker.

@motherofpearl1

I was curious about this myself, so I looked it up.  According to this link, The Mandalorian is set in 9 ABY:
https://www.gamesradar.com/the-mandalorian-timeline-star-wars/

And according to this link at Wookieepedia, Ben Solo was born in 5 ABY, so I guess he would be about 4 years old at this point in The Mandalorian:
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ben_Solo

And as far as DLF demonizing Ben/Kylo even more, someone told me that a comic book came out recently where Kylo destroyed an entire planet.  It might have already been discussed here or elsewhere, but I haven't really been keeping up with Star Wars news, so I don't really know the details.  I guess I should look it up, but I don't have much interest in anything Star Wars anymore after what they did.

But this sort of thing is exactly what I've been afraid of.  I've also been afraid that they might decide to give Rey a new love interest, such as Poe, in the comics or something.  I just have this fear that whatever else they may do with Rey and Kylo/Ben's characters might just ruin things even more.

Good thing: For me personally, they are not able to destroy this further more. I fear I´m an aggressively positive thinking person.

If continuously rewriting the tragic figure of a story as the evil himself from his childhood on is all they are capable of, fine.
After TROS and all their shameful attempts to interpret this dumpster fire as sth. hopeful and positive, I expect less than nothing worth of watching or reading from this company.

If they will ever do real future stuff (because atm. it´s all looking backwards), as a follow up to TROS, I don´t care if they do this stupid and boring trio thing, or bringing up Rey and Poe as a couple or Rey and Finn (more likely in my opinion). It´s dead for me, I´m just no longer interested.

unicorn wrote:Good thing: For me personally, they are not able to destroy this further more. I fear I´m an aggressively positive thinking person.

If continuously rewriting the tragic figure of a story as the evil himself from his childhood on is all they are capable of, fine.
After TROS and all their shameful attempts to interpret this dumpster fire as sth. hopeful and positive, I expect less than nothing worth of watching or reading from this company.

If they will ever do real future stuff (because atm. it´s all looking backwards), as a follow up to TROS, I don´t care if they do this stupid and boring trio thing, or bringing up Rey and Poe as a couple or Rey and Finn (more likely in my opinion). It´s dead for me, I´m just no longer interested.

@unicorn

well said!
I'd only hope that they leave the old characters alone once for all, that they'll create their new projects with brand new characters and stories... they have already ruined too much.
But I know that, if they'll need it, they will surely resume Kylo and they'll change whatever they need and want. That's why I wouldn't put too much trust in their projects and writing skills, they have proven to be too volatile.

It's so lame that all they think of Kylo Ren/Ben Solo is as an irredeemable figure. I just don't get it.

They never got over the fact that Kylo is more popular than Rey, Finn or Poe. That he's the most complex and three dimensional character in the entire SW universe. That the actor playing him gave an Oscar worthy performance. That Adam and not Daisy is the breakout star of the ST.

To make matters worse JB has been whining that the only reason Finn wasn't the hero of the trilogy and Rey's love interest is because of his skin colour. But 'Sam', the character who later became Finn, was originally conceived as white. And he was never meant to be Rey's love interest.

Finn was a secondary character, whom Rian Johnson, not JJ Abrams, groomed to be a more three dimensional character complete with love interest and clear direction. Poe was turned into a genuinely interesting three dimensional character, again by Rian, when he was slated to die in the first film.
I suspect Finn's tiresome, Kylo hating fans on the forum I shall not mention will be thrilled, and Boyega will probably throw his reluctance to be in a tv series agenda to the wind and leap at the chance to play Rey's star crossed Jedi student in future projects. I hope his army of fans have deep pockets because no one else will be interested in watching such a dull, predictable love story.
What petty little children DLF are. Just because they didn't get their way and have the audience fall for Rey, they are completely character assassinating the best thing in the ST as an act of petulant spite.
They didn't deserve Rian OR Adam.

motherofpearl1 wrote:They never got over the fact that Kylo is more popular than Rey, Finn or Poe. That he's the most complex and three dimensional character in the entire SW universe. That the actor playing him gave an Oscar worthy performance. That Adam and not Daisy is the breakout star of the ST.

To make matters worse JB has been whining that the only reason Finn wasn't the hero of the trilogy and Rey's love interest is because of his skin colour. But 'Sam', the character who later became Finn, was originally conceived as white. And he was never meant to be Rey's love interest.

Finn was a secondary character, whom Rian Johnson, not JJ Abrams, groomed to be a more three dimensional character complete with love interest and clear direction. Poe was turned into a genuinely interesting three dimensional character, again by Rian, when he was slated to die in the first film.
I suspect Finn's tiresome, Kylo hating fans on the forum I shall not mention will be thrilled, and Boyega will probably throw his reluctance to be in a tv series agenda to the wind and leap at the chance to play Rey's star crossed Jedi student in future projects. I hope his army of fans have deep pockets because no one else will be interested in watching such a dull, predictable love story.
What petty little children DLF are. Just because they didn't get their way and have the audience fall for Rey, they are completely character assassinating the best thing in the ST as an act of petulant spite.
They didn't deserve Rian OR Adam.

If they wanted Rey to be the favorite, they should have made her more complex like Buffy Summers.

Something I've been repeatedly saying to the Kylo haters.
If you want a character to be the lead, then you have got to make them interesting. By the time TROS ended she was as dull as dishwater.

Sorry to double post...but four years post TROS and they are doing what many of us on this thread were convinced they wouldn't do...
......make a film with Holy Rey as its central protagonist, introducing a 'new Jedi Order'. Sigh...

motherofpearl1 wrote:Sorry to double post...but four years post TROS and they are doing what many of us on this thread were convinced they wouldn't do...
......make a film with Holy Rey  as its central protagonist, introducing a 'new Jedi Order'. Sigh...

It's sad but also amusing because no one wants it. Not fans whether hardcore or casual, not the remaining Reylos left in the wild and definitely not the GA. I have a feeling it will bomb tbh.

Honestly this whole experience a few years back taught me such a valuable lesson. It taught me to just take media with a pinch of salt and not get too attached to characters, ships or theories. At the end of the day, it just wastes valuable time and energy. That being said, I'll never forget how we were treated from the time TFA came out to now.