Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

Emo Kylo Ren had this to say on the subject:

dear diary
mom says i cant have an ash tray in my bedroom
I tried to explain it's not for smoking it's for the remains of my enemies

panki wrote:To be honest, the hints that Snoke (and before him Palpatine) was preying on a small kid creeps me out a lot more than ashes of enemies....as a matter of fact, it still does make me feel very sad and disturbed. I'm still on the fence as to whether the ashes are even human remains and not burnt library books from Luke's jedi temple or ancient jedi remains from Malachor which our relic hunter felt like keeping in his shrine area (since Vader visited Malachor to get hold of a powerful holocron superweapon)

@panki

I like those ideas - especially the Malachor one - but if we never hear about the ashes again, most will simply think they were meant to be people Kylo has killed. Fair enough.

Of course Snoke preying on a small child is far more creepy, but it's part of the story, you know? A big part of the story. The backstory of the ashes isn't, so it's just thrown here after the fact to mess with people's perceptions (or to further confirm their opinions, if they already chose to see him as an irredeemable villain).

It's like all of a sudden JJ said about the scene with Kylo staring at the red sky, "Oh, by the way, here we originally envisioned that Kylo was thinking about his dead wife." People would go, WHOA, WTF?! And yes, you could say a dead wife is more important than a bunch of dead people's ashes, but details matter, every detail skews the viewer towards some interpretation. And from reading people's comments, it's a fact that many people's perception of Kylo Ren's character changed because of this useless piece of background info. (Mine didn't, btw, just so everybody knows. The only change for me was to become more afraid of the level of the filmmakers' competence.) For some, the change was subtle, and for others, it was bigger: it confirmed something about the writers' intentions that they'd already feared, perhaps. I find it disappointing that these reactions are dismissed as overreacting and hysteria. Come on, this fandom analyses even the reflections of light in Kylo's eyes. There's no way anyone can claim that details don't matter. In an ambiguous character they matter a great deal.

(I'm not arguing with you, by the way, @panki! Although I responded to your post.)

@Darth Dingbat I felt the same but when everyone helped out here my perception changed and I thought to myself, even if people right now get a different perspective of Kylo (which some will and relish in it because some don't like him) because of this news. When all is said and done with whatever story they have for redemption the news about the ashes will only be within an old article by 2019. By then everyone's mind will have swayed off this little piece of information. It was weird information but they didn't use it.
We must remember what we see on screen and what we see as being canon. My initial reaction to the ashes when I first seen it was "oh it's probably to give the mask a sooty look"....weird right? However it wasn't until going on Tumblr, forums etc that I noticed it was being debated.

Darth Dingbat wrote:

panki wrote:To be honest, the hints that Snoke (and before him Palpatine) was preying on a small kid creeps me out a lot more than ashes of enemies....as a matter of fact, it still does make me feel very sad and disturbed. I'm still on the fence as to whether the ashes are even human remains and not burnt library books from Luke's jedi temple or ancient jedi remains from Malachor which our relic hunter felt like keeping in his shrine area (since Vader visited Malachor to get hold of a powerful holocron superweapon)

@panki

I like those ideas - especially the Malachor one - but if we never hear about the ashes again, most will simply think they were meant to be people Kylo has killed. Fair enough.

Of course Snoke preying on a small child is far more creepy, but it's part of the story, you know? A big part of the story. The backstory of the ashes isn't, so it's just thrown here after the fact to mess with people's perceptions (or to further confirm their opinions, if they already chose to see him as an irredeemable villain).

It's like all of a sudden JJ said about the scene with Kylo staring at the red sky, "Oh, by the way, here we originally envisioned that Kylo was thinking about his dead wife." People would go, WHOA, WTF?! And yes, you could say a dead wife is more important than a bunch of dead people's ashes, but details matter, every detail skews the viewer towards some interpretation. And from reading people's comments, it's a fact that many people's perception of Kylo Ren's character changed because of this useless piece of background info. (Mine didn't, btw, just so everybody knows. The only change for me was to become more afraid of the level of the filmmakers' competence.) For some, the change was subtle, and for others, it was bigger: it confirmed something about the writers' intentions that they'd already feared, perhaps. I find it disappointing that these reactions are dismissed as overreacting and hysteria. Come on, this fandom analyses even the reflections of light in Kylo's eyes. There's no way anyone can claim that details don't matter. In an ambiguous character they matter a great deal.

(I'm not arguing with you, by the way, @panki! Although I responded to your post.)

@Darth Dingbat

Don't worry...I didn't think you were arguing with me
I'm just trying to find ways to reconcile the image of Kylo I have in my mind and the ashes...but even if he were keeping the ashes of enemies, I'd be okay with it....having an interest in occult and esoteric subjects, I have both seen and read about stuff that make ashes look very very tame....so not shocked, but trying to figure out how to best fit this new information with what is already known because I have this feeling this is the last we're going to hear about the ashes from tptb.

I will say one more thing: the ash actually worked when it was ambiguous. It could represent his past crimes, the people he has killed or the village that was burnt, it could represent the ashes the Starkiller weapon left in its wake, it could represent a relic of his own past or a relic of ancient history, it might have been books burnt by a religious fanatic, it might be an ambiguous reference to a Nazi death cult or to the Inquisition, it could refer to him as a phoenix figure or even as Shiva, depending on how the story proceeds from here.

JJ's explanation took all those symbolic possibilities away and replaced them with a mundane and creepy backstory that has given "trophy-collecting serial killer vibes" to many viewers whose interpretation, based on the film itself, was originally something different. I think that was unnecessary and even unfair.


@Little_Boots: of course - and my Kylo Ren is, thus far, the one I see in TFA, too. I don't even consider the canon books in my interpretation, except perhaps the intriguing compassion dialogue that was in the original script. But I'm not talking about my own interpretation; I just don't like what JJ did, all in all. It left a bad taste in my mouth.

Darth Dingbat wrote:I will say one more thing: the ash actually worked when it was ambiguous. It could represent his past crimes, the people he has killed or the village that was burnt, it could represent the ashes the Starkiller weapon left in its wake, it could represent a relic of his own past or a relic of ancient history, it might have been books burnt by a religious fanatic, it might be an ambiguous reference to a Nazi death cult or to the Inquisition, it could refer to him as a phoenix figure or even as Shiva, depending on how the story proceeds from here.

JJ's explanation took all those symbolic possibilities away and replaced them with a mundane and creepy backstory that has given "trophy-collecting serial killer vibes" to many viewers whose interpretation, based on the film itself, was originally something different. I think that was unnecessary and even unfair.


@Little_Boots: of course - and my Kylo Ren is, thus far, the one I see in TFA, too. I don't even consider the canon books in my interpretation, except perhaps the intriguing compassion dialogue that was in the original script. But I'm not talking about my own interpretation; I just don't like what JJ did, all in all. It left a bad taste in my mouth.

@Darth Dingbat
You should read this post from our Redemption Thread (if you haven't already) from SoloSideCousin.

"Exactly. And what you say here has prompted me to discuss something that hit me when watching the I-Tunes download. I was just waiting for the right post to jump off from, and this one is it.

To repeat you: "This is Han and Leia's kid we're talking about." Exactly .... exactly (part Matt the Radar technician, but part very serious).

So I was watching the movie and I was going over the Han and Leia discussion about Kylo/Ben with a fine tooth comb, watching Harrison Ford's reactions to the Snoke news (this is where I picked up that microexpression of sickened fury ... which is quite in line with a father realizing that his son has been abused), when suddenly the movie cuts to Kylo marching through a hall and the woman stormtrooper calls out to him with an update about Rey. And then it hit me, in this visceral, OMG kind of way ....This is Han and Leia's son!!!!!!

I was 8 in 1983 and even then I had imagined all kinds of scenarios of what the kids of Han and Leia would be like. (Luke always seemed too priestly to me to have kids by ROTJ, so there was less vision for his future kids). I remember imagining multiple kids. A son, a daughter, a young rebellious one, the one who went to the darkside. I always imagined a future where they had multiple kids. I never imagined that there would only be *one* kid. I always thought that the darkness and light, the snarky and good would balance out ... like I think a lot of "Rey Skywalker" seekers are craving.

But that's not what TFA did. They put all the hopes and dreams of the OT Big 3 into one character, one character who is supposed to embody all three of them at the same time ... one character that the the OT 3 failed in some way ... one character that turned to the dark side. Kylo/Ben is the answer to millions of people's headcanon and he turns the entire universe on its head. He destroys the simplistic paradigm of the series in one moment, and he is an incredible character for it. But the stakes for him are insane!!! People wished for these sequels for decades, hoping to see some wonderful, beautiful, snarky combination of Leia and Han. We got that ... but they made him damaged and dark side, and they made him *the only one*. Everything rests on him.

Kathleen Kennedy said that only a few actors could play Kylo/Ben. No kidding! To have to play the character who is the only legacy of the big 3 is pressure cubed, and writing this "last chance" character involves even more pressure.

Obviously, I had logically realized that he was the only one a long time ago, but when I saw that edit between parents and son it was a visceral ... "going back to 1983" thing ... this is *the son* we have all been waiting for.

To ruin this legacy child with permanent damnation does not only make no storyline sense in the genre, it also makes no instinctual sense. A worldwide audience has waited for this kid. You're going to kill him like Vader?! You have the legacy child of everyone's headcanon warped by abuse and then you just kill him off like he's a disease that has to be eradicated. No. This is a series that requires symmetry. As a result, this kid, this damaged man has to tie up the Skywalkers in a hopeful way in Episode IX. Because he's it! He's the kid! He is Luke, Leia, Han (and Anakin/Vader) all rolled into one. He is the symbol of all their strengths and all their inherent weaknesses. He has to pull himself together or the Skywalkers will be a doomed family. That's why people are so desperate for Rey Skywalker ... it's because they don't have a clue how they dig Kylo/Ben out of the hole and they don't want the Skywalkers to fall like the House of Usher. They won't fall. He will pull it together. But as I had that visceral "This is Han and Leia's kid" reaction it really hit me in a whole new way how absolutely brave this choice for Kylo/Ben actually was. Whether everyone ends up "getting it" or not, it was a courageous and brilliant and exciting decision."

Some Disney films have a lot of creepy dark material. I just thought of Pocahontas the Disney film at the end finale, her father is about to smash John Smiths head on a rock which to me looked like it was a normal thing to do (which it was obviously) but it gives the impression that Pocahontas and other characters in the film see stuff like this regularly, yet her father is a kind man in the film but he is also trying to protect his village. The real stories of that time are much darker, like fairy tales with the little Mermaid dying....etc....Kylo Ren could fall into a dark fairy tale.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Beautiful cats

I can only speak for myself, but can I just clarify that not all of us who "had a meltdown" about the ashes did so because we're hysterical and squeamish? Mediaeval history is my specialty, with an emphasis on war history, so if I had to list unpleasant things I'd rather not see, I'd probably say things like people getting impalled through their eyesockets. A pile of ashes doesn't register anywhere on the disgust level. In fact, I keep cremated remains in my bookcase, so who am I to judge? (They're not dead enemies, though, but dead dogs.)

I was disappointed in JJ's story because I felt - and still do - that this nugget of information is very out of place in terms of the character we saw in the film, in terms of the genre, in terms of the story, in terms of a significant part of the target audience (young children), and so on. I understand that others may disagree, but I feel strongly that this is way off. It actually makes it worse that the ash is likely never to be referred to again. If it had a meaning, a real, deep meaning - it might work. But the GA read that story and is talking about it. They don't read complex metas with references to Nazi death cults, the Bible, mythology, ancient warriors in different indigenous cultures, phoenixes, and so on. (The phoenix rises from its own ashes, by the way; not those of its enemies.)

JJ only said those are the ashes of Kylo's enemies. To most people this simply means that he collects trophies of his victims, and their comments are along the lines of "disgusting", "creepy as f***", or "serial killer". It added NOTHING of substance to the complex and carefully built (or so it seemed!) character that we saw on screen. It detracted from it. That's my opinion, and I don't think it has anything to do with hysteria. It's just disappointment in JJ, because it made me feel like maybe the film and the character I loved were an accident rather than the creators' intention.

@Darth Dingbat

I agree with all of the above. Yeah the only thing that I am melting from is the 100 degree weather in Phoenix, Arizona. JJ's tidbit DOES distract from the overall narrative that was created and acted on screen about Kylo. And, I have trust issues with show runners and corporations that create more for profit than to tell a story that will stick to the mythological spiritual tradition of the OT, PT and vision of GL.

@FrolickingFizzgig: absolutely. I agree on all that 100%, and I've agreed ever since I saw TFA. It is courageous, and at its best, it will make for a truly epic, powerful and transcendent story. The higher the stakes, the more powerful this can be. Help us, Ben Solo, you're our only hope

My issue with JJ's comment isn't an issue with the story; I only think it's a useless extraneous factoid that etracts from the story we actually saw. Of course the epic story I'm expecting can be screwed up in many ways along the road, but at the very least, I trust Rian Johnson to deliver an excellent film.

Darth Dingbat wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig: absolutely. I agree on all that 100%, and I've agreed ever since I saw TFA. It is courageous, and at its best, it will make for a truly epic, powerful and transcendent story. The higher the stakes, the more powerful this can be. Help us, Ben Solo, you're our only hope  

My issue with JJ's comment isn't an issue with the story; I only think it's a useless extraneous factoid that etracts from the story we actually saw. Of course the epic story I'm expecting can be screwed up in many ways along the road, but at the very least, I trust Rian Johnson to deliver an excellent film.

@Darth Dingbat
But so is Chewie ripping Maz's arm off and Maz being revealed as a "secret Jedi who was in hiding". Lol what? She didn't decide to help defeat the Empire? These are both unused concepts that now mean nothing to the story, but the Maz scenes were actually filmed (we can see this because of the trailer). JJ cut them because he realized it didn't make sense.

Writers are going to reveal old concepts (there are dozens of them for Jedi Killer, each creepier than the next). Kylo isn't a concept. He's a character. As SoloSideCousin said so eloquently, he's the kid, the Original Trilogy legacy son, and he's the only one. He has the fate of a generation resting on his shoulders, and you really think any writers are going to ruin this character people have waited 30-years to meet? Okay, he isn't what everybody was expecting... he's a million times better. He's a story worth telling because of his past.

Chewie pulled off Unkar Plutt's arm, and Unkar being a creep to Rey, most would cheer Chewie on when he did it. Maz being a Jedi in the ST universe, would actually not have been unusual at all. The problem is trophy collecting is associated with serial killer behavior. THAT is the problem with Ren's ashes.

And, considering that Ben Solo is THE legacy character of a generation, the one that we have waited 30 years for. JJ & Co should have imho been extraordinarily careful about the symbolism that surrounds him. Or did they mean for Ben/Kylo to be the big bad of ST. Or is this a leftover from the Jedi Killer idea they had before they made Ben Kylo Ren. I don't know.

spacebaby45678 wrote:Chewie pulled off Unkar Plutt's arm, and Unkar being a creep to Rey, most would cheer Chewie on when he did it. Maz being a Jedi in the ST universe, would actually not have been unusual at all. The problem is trophy collecting is associated with serial killer behavior. THAT is the problem with Ren's ashes.

@spacebaby45678
Well if you're going to let a tiny unused concept that will never be mentioned again ruin this whole thing for yourself, great. I guess I'm too optimistic for that. I understand that the writing process isn't something that comes out perfect the first time. It evolves. Ideas evolve. Characters evolve. Writers don't just snap their fingers and make something noteworthy the first time around. It requires painful effort, abandoning decisions, opting for "better" ideas.

I TOTALLY disagree about the secret Jedi thing. I would have thought it was stupid to reveal that. Maz would have been a total useless coward, which detracts from her character and adds nothing to the wisdom of a creature who has spent 1000 years fighting the good fight against the Dark Side.

spacebaby45678 wrote:Chewie pulled off Unkar Plutt's arm, and Unkar being a creep to Rey,  most would cheer Chewie on when he did it. Maz being a Jedi  in the ST universe, would actually not have been unusual at all.  The problem is trophy collecting is associated with serial killer behavior. THAT is the problem with Ren's ashes.

@spacebaby45678

But didn't Han say that Chewie pulled peoples arms out of their sockets when he lost in board games? That's pretty dark but it adds to his character.
I think Chewie is actually a charming character even knowing that stuff. Don't let this ash tray stuff bring you down.

spacebaby45678 wrote:And, considering that Ben Solo is THE legacy character of a generation, the one that we have waited 30 years for. JJ & Co should have imho been extraordinarily careful about the symbolism that surrounds him. Or did they mean for Ben/Kylo to be the big bad of ST. Or is this a leftover from the Jedi Killer idea they had before they made Ben Kylo Ren. I don't know.

@spacebaby45678
Seeing as the ashes didn't make it into the movie, the shooting script, the actual script, any versions of the novelization, the DVD documentary or any subsequent interviews until JJ was asked point-blank about them, and considering the fact that Pablo Hidalgo didn't even know, I'm assuming it was abandoned a long time ago. They changed the scene completely because their second idea to have Rey be the first to see Ren's face (along with the audience) was the "better" idea.

Writers are allowed to discuss unused shots and concepts. That is in their right, and we have to accept that writing is an organic process.

I just don't like the insinuation I've been hearing from several posters that writers shouldn't talk about the writing process or mention ideas they ultimately didn't go into. As a writer myself, I would want to talk about the process because it's important.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:And, considering that Ben Solo is THE legacy character of a generation, the one that we have waited 30 years for. JJ & Co should have imho been extraordinarily careful about the symbolism that surrounds him. Or did they mean for Ben/Kylo to be the big bad of ST. Or is this a leftover from the Jedi Killer idea they had before they made Ben Kylo Ren. I don't know.

@spacebaby45678
Seeing as the ashes didn't make it into the movie, the shooting script, the actual script, any versions of the novelization, the DVD documentary or any subsequent interviews until JJ was asked point-blank about them, and considering the fact that Pablo Hidalgo didn't even know, I'm assuming it was abandoned a long time ago. They changed the scene completely because their second idea to have Rey be the first to see Ren's face (along with the audience) was the "better" idea.

Writers are allowed to discuss unused shots and concepts. That is in their right, and we have to accept that writing is an organic process.

@FrolickingFizzgig

But the problem with this particular thing is that it isn't an unused concept. The ashes did end up in the film, just not in the scene for which they were originally shot. And what JJ actually said is: "The backstory is, that that table has the ashes of the enemies he’s killed."

"The backstory is." That's how it sounds to most people, that the backstory is this, not that the original concept was this.

Of course it's fascinating to hear about what actually goes into the creative process - The Art of The Force Awakens book is marvellous. It's interesting to see what was discarded along the way and what was developed into something else. But JJ's comment here was something a bit different, IMO.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:And, considering that Ben Solo is THE legacy character of a generation, the one that we have waited 30 years for. JJ & Co should have imho been extraordinarily careful about the symbolism that surrounds him. Or did they mean for Ben/Kylo to be the big bad of ST. Or is this a leftover from the Jedi Killer idea they had before they made Ben Kylo Ren. I don't know.

@spacebaby45678
Seeing as the ashes didn't make it into the movie, the shooting script, the actual script, any versions of the novelization, the DVD documentary or any subsequent interviews until JJ was asked point-blank about them, and considering the fact that Pablo Hidalgo didn't even know, I'm assuming it was abandoned a long time ago. They changed the scene completely because their second idea to have Rey be the first to see Ren's face (along with the audience) was the "better" idea.

Writers are allowed to discuss unused shots and concepts. That is in their right, and we have to accept that writing is an organic process.

@FrolickingFizzgig

But it was a used shot, JJ thought it was "cool" without thought to the overall narrative about the main antagonist/legacy character. THIS is my problem with JJ, it is a lack of understanding that mythological symbol is more important in this genre than what is "COOL" . The ashes where there and it makes some including me wonder HOW do they envision this characters arc? What I saw on screen was the LOST son of Han & Leia, the son that needs and should be brought back to the light. Is Kylo on a redemption arc or is this the development of the Villain? Should we not take JJ at his word? Or has JJ set up possible arcs/mystery boxes to many possible endings? And, even though I am a fan of TFA & Reylo (mainly because of my nostalgia and the performances of AD & DR) I have always maintained that mystery boxes are not compatible to mythological/fairy tale story telling.

I actually find it interesting that Kylo having ashes of his enemies alarms so many people yet they either haven't analyzed or haven't thought about the possibility that Rey killed people too.I find this to be a lot more interesting and fascinating when analyzing Rey as a character because unlike the story behind the ashes Rey having blood on her hands has been  alluded in Before the Awakening which  it much more canon that a scene that was shot but never used and while it can be argued that Rey killing people is different than Kylo ding it (but it can also be argued that it might not be that different if Kylo like Rey kills people he perceives as his enemies like JJ said )the fact remains that she's a killer as well which is something I feel has been overlooked by many fans just like the antis are hell bent on painting Rey as a victim of Kylo.Tey killing people should in theory be more disturbing since she's suppose to be the hero unlike Kylo who's a villain and whom  we saw kill Lor San Tekka and order the murder of an entire village  not to mention killing his father .I mean don't get me wrong when I  read that that but if info it really creeped me out and while I don't think this isn't OOC for Kylo I agree with @Darth Dingbat that he just shouldn't have said that at all especially when he won't be directing the next two movies.A lot of viewers won't have any idea about the Ashgate thing but those who care about Kylo and write so many metas and analyses are now feeling that maybe they were wrong in believing the writers were competent in telling an interesting story and creating a complex character.And while I understand  directors  talking about their original ideas about characters,etc is a normal thing In this case I think it's just a bad idea to mention something that can alarm some people and change their perception of the character.
But coming back to what I was originally saying I think instead of getting alarmed and doubting ourselves we should look at how Rey's life on Jakku could affect her future development and possible fall to the Dark side which is why comments about how Rey living in the sand and didn't turn her evil like Kylo really annoy ne because this is a grill who has to live and defend herself and he's also kill people to survive for many years.There are two movies left so we have no idea what she might or might not do.It can also be argued that her being on Jakku has protected her from the Dark Side intill now because unlike Kylo she never had someone whispering in her head and taking advantage of her loneliness and abandonment,with Kylo Snoke got  the chance to bye his hands on him because he was in the spotlight.And if we take into account her history of liking people suddenly trying to shoot a Stormtrooper and Kylo first makes much more sense.

For all we know the person that interviewed JJ might dislike the character Kylo Ren and twisted his words. Doubtful but I'm just trying to keep peoples spirits up, I wouldn't put it past anyone to do something like this.

There´s a thread about Kylo Ren´s ashes...eleven pages? Sith....what about his ashes...in short? anyone?

Arcana wrote:There´s a thread about Kylo Ren´s ashes...eleven pages? Sith....what about his ashes...in short? anyone?

@Arcana

JJ Abrams said the ashes are Kylo Rens enemies. The idea they had was old so they changed it. The scene with the helmet slamming down on the ash tray was supposed to be used when Kylo was chatting with Vaders helmet but they put the scene into the helmet removal we see with Rey.

Saracene wrote:Emo Kylo Ren had this to say on the subject:

dear diary
mom says i cant have an ash tray in my bedroom
I tried to explain it's not for smoking it's for the remains of my enemies

@Saracene

I love emo kylo. He has the perfect attitude.

Little_Boots wrote:

Arcana wrote:There´s a thread about Kylo Ren´s ashes...eleven pages? Sith....what about his ashes...in short? anyone?

@Arcana

JJ Abrams said the ashes are Kylo Rens enemies. The idea they had was old so they changed it. The scene with the helmet slamming down on the ash tray was supposed to be used when Kylo was chatting with Vaders helmet but they put the scene into the helmet removal we see with Rey.

@Little_Boots


that´s funny...why would he have a bowl with the actual ashes of his enemies...can he shoot fireballs?  
hmmmm that would be nice to see though...why stop with the blue lightning...let´s have a fire-bender, air-bender, earth-bender and water-bender too....maybe I´m not joking....would make sense...the Force is everywhere...not just in the lightning


@anneNeville



*chuckles*