Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

spacebaby45678 wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

spacebaby45678 wrote:And, considering that Ben Solo is THE legacy character of a generation, the one that we have waited 30 years for. JJ & Co should have imho been extraordinarily careful about the symbolism that surrounds him. Or did they mean for Ben/Kylo to be the big bad of ST. Or is this a leftover from the Jedi Killer idea they had before they made Ben Kylo Ren. I don't know.

@spacebaby45678
Seeing as the ashes didn't make it into the movie, the shooting script, the actual script, any versions of the novelization, the DVD documentary or any subsequent interviews until JJ was asked point-blank about them, and considering the fact that Pablo Hidalgo didn't even know, I'm assuming it was abandoned a long time ago. They changed the scene completely because their second idea to have Rey be the first to see Ren's face (along with the audience) was the "better" idea.

Writers are allowed to discuss unused shots and concepts. That is in their right, and we have to accept that writing is an organic process.

@FrolickingFizzgig

But it was a used shot, JJ thought it was "cool" without thought to the overall narrative about the main antagonist/legacy character. THIS is my problem with JJ, it is a lack of understanding that mythological symbol is more important in this genre than what is "COOL" .  The ashes where there and it makes some including me wonder HOW do they envision this characters arc?  What I saw on screen was the LOST son of Han & Leia, the son that needs and should be brought back to the light.  Is Kylo on a redemption arc  or is this  the development of the Villain? Should we not take JJ at his word?  Or has JJ set up possible arcs/mystery boxes to many possible endings? And, even though I am a fan of TFA & Reylo (mainly because of my nostalgia and the performances of AD & DR)  I have always maintained that mystery boxes are not compatible to mythological/fairy tale story telling.

@spacebaby45678
And they're never going be mentioned again... they're gone. The scene is gone. Like what, they're going to reappear in Episode VIII and suddenly be a super important plot-point? Yeah, I doubt it.

And no, we should not take JJ at his word. He likes to keep his secrets. Everybody should know this, and he isn't directing Episodes VIII or IX. Episode VII was the evolution of a hero and a villain. You really think he was giving away the entire plot of their Trilogy like it meant nothing? Because I certainly don't.

Found this  



http://rosalind-likes-kylo-ren.tumblr.com/post/142309944553/wolf-puppy-needs-help

When I read all the last posts - except for the cat interlude -, I feel like people are talking past each other.

Some talk about the change of perception that this piece of information might create on the audience -> communication on your product. And some answer with a list of the reasons why Kylo will be redeemed based on TFA -> specifications of the product itself. Two different things.

I will stick to my ground when I say that this information was not necessary. Maybe the GA will never really know and care about it, maybe it will. Things can sometimes get out of control. Honestly, which company goes to customers and say "oh, one day we had this concept about our product A having these features, but then we decided to discard most of it and only used that one cool feature" Of course, the customer is going to go like "Uh? Tell me more about these other features." So unless you intend to use the features again and are teasing – but then you have to time your teasing well – why open the door to uncomfortable questions?

So I agree with one poster that the whole ash thing brings nothing to the movie if not re-used. Plus the continuation issue really bugs me. I had not realized that the ash container was not in the interrogation room when I saw the movie. I mean it's obvious now seeing some pictures, but my mind had not registered it. So when I re-watch the scene now, I see a continuation issue and on top of that a big ashtray with a potentially creepy backstory and that is just there because JJ thought it looked cool.

It will pass, but I see now the movie with more flaws than I was doing some time ago. How many times have we said that every shot of the movie was there for a reason and not just random? That all was well thought through. Well, maybe we should review a little our views and start considering that some things are actually there just because.

Of course, this does not change the storyline. And no, I also have not changed my mind on redemption, but I will definitively look at the next communications of some of the people involved in the movie with another eye.

And on the cat interlude, I also have an 11 year old cat called Sangha (yes, like my profile name). She is a tabby. She weighs 7 kg +. A lot of people confuse her with a male because you know, only male cats are so big - even cats get this kind of comments... But it's true that she has a smaller head than males. She has anger fits like Kylo and goes for my ankles or bare arms when she is angry. Not the cuddly type except when she's decided that she needs attention now. Not a sociable cat. Avoids people. My mom told me one day that she is just like me. Thank you, mom. Cannot post a pic from this computer.

new meta on Ashgate...and the Iliad:

http://oldadastra.tumblr.com/post/142381327969/a-post-about-ashes-and-the-iliad

if anything, AshGate inspires people to read about ash practices.

vaderito wrote:new meta on Ashgate...and the Iliad:

http://oldadastra.tumblr.com/post/142381327969/a-post-about-ashes-and-the-iliad

if anything, AshGate inspires people to read about ash practices.

@vaderito

An excellent post. Did you add it to the meta section?

AnneNeville wrote:

vaderito wrote:new meta on Ashgate...and the Iliad:

http://oldadastra.tumblr.com/post/142381327969/a-post-about-ashes-and-the-iliad

if anything, AshGate inspires people to read about ash practices.

@vaderito

An excellent post. Did you add it to the meta section?

@AnneNeville

can't find Meta thread.

Here's another excellent meta on AshGate, which I will also put in the meta thread: http://nightsofreylo.tumblr.com/post/142401021194/thoughts-on-ashgate-and-star-wars-funerals

I feel like one of the big reasons this doesn't bother me even a little has to do with the fact that I never bought the phoenix symbolism people kept talking about... there's a reason I didn't mention it at all in my symbolism meta. Dude had a bowl of ashes in his interrogation chamber. I knew they were meant to infer something dark. There's absolutely no way the writers intended them to have some rebirth connotation, especially because we see them once for dramatic effect. This is nothing like Starkiller Base (which actually shares music with Kylo)... that was the rebirth symbol. The sun that was actually reborn and emphasized like hell in the script.

The rebirth didn't happen until the end of the film, or it is foreshadowed to happen. Either way, it's happening.

AppleCrumble122 wrote:Here's another excellent meta on AshGate, which I will also put in the meta thread: http://nightsofreylo.tumblr.com/post/142401021194/thoughts-on-ashgate-and-star-wars-funerals

@AppleCrumble122

Love this. Post in meta section which I can't find for some reason.

Ashes that launched 1000 metas. Oh Kylo.

vaderito wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:Here's another excellent meta on AshGate, which I will also put in the meta thread: http://nightsofreylo.tumblr.com/post/142401021194/thoughts-on-ashgate-and-star-wars-funerals

@AppleCrumble122

Love this. Post in meta section which I can't find for some reason.

Ashes that launched 1000 metas. Oh Kylo.

@vaderito
It's the very first thread in The Force Awakens section - right at the top as a sticky thread . http://reylo.skyforum.net/t1-metas-that-will-help-you-engage-in-discussion

And I've already posted it there.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Beautiful cats

I can only speak for myself, but can I just clarify that not all of us who "had a meltdown" about the ashes did so because we're hysterical and squeamish? Mediaeval history is my specialty, with an emphasis on war history, so if I had to list unpleasant things I'd rather not see, I'd probably say things like people getting impalled through their eyesockets. A pile of ashes doesn't register anywhere on the disgust level. In fact, I keep cremated remains in my bookcase, so who am I to judge? (They're not dead enemies, though, but dead dogs.)

I was disappointed in JJ's story because I felt - and still do - that this nugget of information is very out of place in terms of the character we saw in the film, in terms of the genre, in terms of the story, in terms of a significant part of the target audience (young children), and so on. I understand that others may disagree, but I feel strongly that this is way off. It actually makes it worse that the ash is likely never to be referred to again. If it had a meaning, a real, deep meaning - it might work. But the GA read that story and is talking about it. They don't read complex metas with references to Nazi death cults, the Bible, mythology, ancient warriors in different indigenous cultures, phoenixes, and so on. (The phoenix rises from its own ashes, by the way; not those of its enemies.)

JJ only said those are the ashes of Kylo's enemies. To most people this simply means that he collects trophies of his victims, and their comments are along the lines of "disgusting", "creepy as f***", or "serial killer". It added NOTHING of substance to the complex and carefully built (or so it seemed!) character that we saw on screen. It detracted from it. That's my opinion, and I don't think it has anything to do with hysteria. It's just disappointment in JJ, because it made me feel like maybe the film and the character I loved were an accident rather than the creators' intention.

@Darth Dingbat

I think you make a good point here. We are all invested here, so we will consider options and even research for a reason for the ashes, but the GA won't. They'll just go to some bad place, when I actually don't think JJ intended that at all. If he was looking for Kylo to be all "Criminal Minds-ish", he would not have gone out of his way to make him seem so sympathetic in the highly curated documentary. I don't know if you've seen it, but basically he says that that Han and Leia were great, but they were never going to work long term ... and the problem was "They had this kid ... and he's broken ... and "watch[ed]" by an evil forceuser. I still believe that the ashes were leftover from a prior concept that was dropped along the way, but in terms of this GA reaction thing, I agree that JJ shot off his mouth too easily, because an argument can be made that he undercuts his own argument from the documentary. Sometimes I do think that there are too many details in that man's brain.

That being said, the vast majority of the audience will either never see that article or will just brush it off as some "weird dark side thing", perhaps remembering that Jedi were cremated in earlier movies, etc.

Also, I honestly believe that it is going to come out that Snoke has done some really terrible things to Kylo to the point that it is going to be very apparent to all that Kylo is very warped and mind-addled while under Snoke's control. That alone will make most people forgive a lot of things, especially if he starts doing some good, selfless things in Episode VIII. Even though he did bad things, people are going to desperately want the Skywalker heir to straighten himself out when Rey is revealed as a non-Skywalker.

Also, on the medieval history ... that is really interesting. I studied History at college and did a fair share of medieval study. I have an idea for novel set in medieval times. Maybe one day I will check in with you to see if some of the ideas could work?

CienaRee wrote:I actually find it interesting that Kylo having ashes of his enemies alarms so many people yet they either haven't analyzed or haven't thought about the possibility that Rey killed people too.I find this to be a lot more interesting and fascinating when analyzing Rey as a character because unlike the story behind the ashes Rey having blood on her hands has been  alluded in Before the Awakening which  it much more canon that a scene that was shot but never used and while it can be argued that Rey killing people is different than Kylo ding it (but it can also be argued that it might not be that different if Kylo like Rey kills people he perceives as his enemies like JJ said )the fact remains that she's a killer as well which is something I feel has been overlooked by many fans just like the antis are hell bent on painting Rey as a victim of Kylo.Tey killing people should in theory be more disturbing since she's suppose to be the hero unlike Kylo who's a villain and whom  we saw kill Lor San Tekka and order the murder of an entire village  not to mention killing his father .I mean don't get me wrong when I  read that that but if info it really creeped me out and while I don't think this isn't OOC for Kylo I agree with @Darth Dingbat that he just shouldn't have said that at all especially when he won't be directing the next two movies.A lot of viewers won't have any idea about the Ashgate thing but those who care about Kylo and write so many metas and analyses are now feeling that maybe they were wrong in believing the writers were competent in telling an interesting story and creating a complex character.And while I understand  directors  talking about their original ideas about characters,etc is a normal thing In this case I think it's just a bad idea to mention something that can alarm some people and change their perception of the character.
But coming back to what I was originally saying I think instead of getting alarmed and doubting ourselves we should look at how Rey's life on Jakku could affect her future development and possible fall to the Dark side which is why comments about how Rey living in the sand and didn't turn her evil like Kylo really annoy ne because this is a grill who has to live and defend herself and he's also kill people to survive for many years.There are two movies left so we have no idea what she might or might not do.It can also be argued that her being on Jakku has protected her from the Dark Side intill now because unlike Kylo she never had someone whispering in her head and taking advantage of her loneliness and abandonment,with Kylo Snoke got  the chance to bye his hands on him because he was in the spotlight.And if we take into account her history of liking people suddenly trying to shoot a Stormtrooper and Kylo first makes much more sense.

@CienaRee

I didn't know that Before the Awakening indicated that Rey had killed people. I mean in the back of my mind it made a lot of sense that she had had a lot of fights in her life, considering how expertly she took down Finn and those Unkar underlings, but for it to actually say in a canon source that she killed before is really huge. That's just the kind of thing that will come up in Episode VIII to undermine Rey CinnamonRoll. JJ did say in the documentary that the actress needed to be able to do both "tough and tender" (not the right words, but that dichotomy) equally well.

Oh man! What if Kylo reads that in her in Episode VIII? Better yet, what if he has already read that in her in Episode VII at the same time that he says "You still want to kill me," and he throws it in her face in Episode VIII in some "we're not so different, are we?" moment.

Darth Dingbat wrote:But the problem with this particular thing is that it isn't an unused concept. The ashes did end up in the film, just not in the scene for which they were originally shot. And what JJ actually said is: "The backstory is, that that table has the ashes of the enemies he’s killed."

"The backstory is." That's how it sounds to most people, that the backstory is this, not that the original concept was this.

spacebaby45678 wrote:But it was a used shot, JJ thought it was "cool" without thought to the overall narrative about the main antagonist/legacy character. THIS is my problem with JJ, it is a lack of understanding that mythological symbol is more important in this genre than what is "COOL" .  The ashes where there and it makes some including me wonder HOW do they envision this characters arc?

I agree.  And to me, that is probably the biggest problem.  The shot with the ashes was actually used, and JJ did give the backstory as to what they were.  So, since the ashes were in the movie and are therefore canon, what does that mean?  Is JJ's explanation for what they are canon?  Or is it still left up to the viewer's imagination to speculate as to what they are?  Because no matter what, the ashes are there in the movie.  And yes, they were completely destroyed with Starkiller Base and will probably never be mentioned again, but they were still there, either in the interrogation room or Kylo's quarters or wherever, and are therefore part of the story.

SoloSideCousin wrote:

CienaRee wrote:I actually find it interesting that Kylo having ashes of his enemies alarms so many people yet they either haven't analyzed or haven't thought about the possibility that Rey killed people too.I find this to be a lot more interesting and fascinating when analyzing Rey as a character because unlike the story behind the ashes Rey having blood on her hands has been  alluded in Before the Awakening which  it much more canon that a scene that was shot but never used and while it can be argued that Rey killing people is different than Kylo ding it (but it can also be argued that it might not be that different if Kylo like Rey kills people he perceives as his enemies like JJ said )the fact remains that she's a killer as well which is something I feel has been overlooked by many fans just like the antis are hell bent on painting Rey as a victim of Kylo.Tey killing people should in theory be more disturbing since she's suppose to be the hero unlike Kylo who's a villain and whom  we saw kill Lor San Tekka and order the murder of an entire village  not to mention killing his father .I mean don't get me wrong when I  read that that but if info it really creeped me out and while I don't think this isn't OOC for Kylo I agree with @Darth Dingbat that he just shouldn't have said that at all especially when he won't be directing the next two movies.A lot of viewers won't have any idea about the Ashgate thing but those who care about Kylo and write so many metas and analyses are now feeling that maybe they were wrong in believing the writers were competent in telling an interesting story and creating a complex character.And while I understand  directors  talking about their original ideas about characters,etc is a normal thing In this case I think it's just a bad idea to mention something that can alarm some people and change their perception of the character.
But coming back to what I was originally saying I think instead of getting alarmed and doubting ourselves we should look at how Rey's life on Jakku could affect her future development and possible fall to the Dark side which is why  comments about how Rey living in the sand and didn't turn her evil like Kylo  really annoy ne because this is a grill who has to live and defend herself and he's also kill people to survive for many years.There are two movies left so we have no idea what she might or might not do.It can also be argued that her being on Jakku has protected her from the Dark Side intill now because unlike Kylo she never had someone whispering in her head and taking advantage of her loneliness and abandonment,with Kylo Snoke got  the chance to bye his hands on him because he was in the spotlight.And if we take into account her history of liking people suddenly trying to shoot a Stormtrooper and Kylo first makes much more sense.

@CienaRee

I didn't know that Before the Awakening indicated that Rey had killed people.  I mean in the back of my mind it made a lot of sense that she had had a lot of fights in her life, considering how expertly she took down Finn and those Unkar underlings, but for it to actually say in a canon source that she killed before is really huge.  That's just the kind of thing that will come up in Episode VIII to undermine Rey CinnamonRoll.  JJ did say in the documentary that the actress needed to be able to do both "tough and tender" (not the right words, but that dichotomy) equally well.

Oh man! What if Kylo reads that in her in Episode VIII? Better yet, what if he has already read that in her in Episode VII at the same time that he says "You still want to kill me," and he throws it in her face in Episode VIII in some "we're not so different, are we?" moment.

@SoloSideCousin

Oh,yeah Before a The Awakening shows a lot more of Rey's personality and the awful life she had to live in on Jakku.She's actually a lot like Kylo in temperament:untrustworthy,preferring to work alone instead of forking connections with other people,her sense of loneliness,her being avoided by other people at Niima because of the reputation she had built herself as well as not taking any pleasure in violence/killing.It's really unrelenting the author choose to allude to this since at the same time he and later the movie presented Finn as someone unable to kill people.
These are some quotes from the book I gathered that showcase Rey's way of thinking,it's very fascinating actually but something the writers in TFA left totally underdeveloped:

"Rey finished one bottle of water and half of another,guarding her thirst,because she didn't know how long it would be until she'd be able to get into Niima for more.She was out of food by by the second day, and by the time the storm was over her headache was so intense she was lightheaded and had to go slowly when she moved around her little home."

"Rey had traded a generator a couple of years ago, so she had power when she needed it,mostly for the work-breach where she would take apart reassemble and, more often than not,rebuild from scratch those pieces of unstable junk she recovered. Unkar aways payed more for things that still worked."

"She sat on the pile of remaining blankets and rested her head against the back of the hull, listening to the storm beat furiously against her home.She closed her eyes, feeling, for the first time in a very long time,very much alone."

"On the wreckage of a Zephra-series hauler,she'd once found a trash of data chips;on of them ,to her delight, had been a flight stimulator. So when she she wasn't sleeping or just sitting and listening to the storm or tinkering at her work bench,she flew.At first she'd been truly horrible at it, quite literally crashing a few seconds after takeoff every time.With nothing else to do, and with a perverse sense of determination that she would not allow herself to be beaten by a machine that she herself had put together with her own hands,she learned."

"As she rode, she could see small groups of scavengers working new wrecks. A lot of people worked in teams, figuring they could cover more ground that way. Rey worked alone and aways had. It was easier when she was alone; there were fewer complications, fewer things to worry about.The only person she had to trust was herself."

"Rey's biggest fear was that she would find a body or, worse,bodies,whatever remained of the unfortunate crew.So she was cautious ,not because she was squeamish but because she didn't want to be surprised by a corpse."

"She wanted to see the expressions on everyone's faces as she came down the ramp and they saw it was her,Rey,who had flown that prize home.She wanted to see Unkar's big eyes open wide and his face puff up in surprise, to hear him stammer as h made offer after offer for the ship,her ship,before she agreed.Five hundred portions? Try five thousand portions,Unkar.Try five thousand portions and a new speeder, a new set of tools, a spare generator,and the first puck of salvage that comes in for,say,the next two-no,four,no five-years.She wanted that very much."

"The sense of accomplishment was profound. She had found a spacecraft that had lain in the sand for years-decades,even-and nursed if back to health.She had ,with her hands and her smarts,taken it into the air once more.That was something to be proud of,though pride itself was a new feeling for her and she didn't know what to do with it."

"She didn't trust Devi or Strunk,either of them alone and certainly not together.She should trust them.She wanted to trust them.But Rey couldn't.They would betray her.Try to trick her.Try to steal the prize,cut her out of the sale.As much as she wanted to believe otherwise,she was certain that Devi and Strunk would turn on her,and soon.''

"She wasn't afraid of violence.She didn't enjoy it,but she wasn't afraid of it.It was a necessary part of surviving on Jakku.She'd learned to defend herself early.She had been in more fights than she could remember.More wins than losses,thankfully.She was good enough that the word had spread in Niima to stay clear of her and heat she could do with her staff.She could fight.She would fight,if necessary.If it came to a fight,Rey would go for Devi first.Then she'd deal with Strunk.She wasn't looking forward to it."

"She knew she should be angry,but she wasn't.It took until that night,until she was sitting on her blankets,punching the lanes out of a battered Stormtrooper helmet,for her to understand why.It had aways been an issue of trust,but never with Devi and Strunk.It had been about trusting herself.Devi and Strunk had wanted the one thing that Rey absolutely hadn't;they'd even told her right from the start.But she hadn't listened. She hadn't heard them,because it was the one thing Rey never allowed herself to consider.They wanted to leave.But Ret had to stay. At least until they came back for her.If she left,her parents would have no way of finding her."

"She shifted over the workbench,switched the computer on,and loaded her flight simulator.Rey flew.It wasn't the same."

I just wanted to say a few last things about JJ and his judgment that might ... might ... help build some consensus for everyone. :-)

I like JJ a lot.  I think he is very talented guy.  I also think that his brain clicks a new idea every second, which is largely a good thing, but has some negative side effects.

First off, JJ is a good director, but he is not a great director at this point in his career, IMO.  He has not reached the heights of his mentor, Steven Spielberg, nor has he shown the ability to achieve precise internal consistency in any of his works along the lines of Francis Ford Coppola with The Godfather and The Godfather Part II, or the way Scorsese does in Goodfellas or The Departed, or the Coen Brothers with Fargo and No Country For Old Men.  These are works where almost every question is addressed, where every "T" is crossed and every "I" is dotted.  These are all incredibly tight, consistent works.  

JJ is not on that level as a director, nor is TFA on that level as a movie.  There are a ton of inconsistencies and missed moments sprinkled throughout TFA (believe me, my hyper-observant husband gave me the full list ).  Also, as a once viewer of Alias, it is obvious that JJ is very enamored with little details, so much in fact that he doesn't generally successfully hold them all together.  

You are going to get inconsistencies in a JJ project because I believe that he is extremely open in his organic creative process.  That can lead to amazing things that get added in at the last minute, like the bridal carry and the late-shot, "choker" footage on the cliffside because at the last minute JJ decided he needed it or inconsistencies like only two stormtroopers going to Niima to fetch the droid when cop shows show more agents on the scene.  But with so many ideas running around, consistency can be tough to achieve, especially when you are more inspired by one aspect of the story than others.  We have seen pretty good evidence of this bias with the meticulous attention paid to Ren and Rey scenes, but very little attention paid to Finn's characterization nor the drama of the space fighter scenes.  In other words, we know who JJ's "babies" were.  

Moreover, like with this "ashes' interview, his constantly churning mind loses some of those details through the cracks.  I think this is what happened in that interview.  Basically, JJ went through a long, constantly revising creative process for Kylo Ren that started as a monster eating star matter and ended with a panting unmasked Ren pulling a GFFA nervous force user Lloyd Dobler on the cliffside.  That is a crazy journey.  I mean the interviewer even said that JJ said the ashes thing like an afterthought, almost like he just went to whatever the ashes were the last time he thought about them before he said "Oooohhhh I need a cool shot to put Ren's helmet down on ... Let's use that old footage."  The thing is that by the time he got to that old footage decision he had already moved 10 steps ahead of the enemy ashes.  The enemy ashes thing had already been cut.  Now he was about having Ren slam down and put aside his dark side weighted helmet so he can show himself to Rey.  See the whole mindset has changed by then.  JJ had a bunch of decisions to make for Ren throughout the whole process and quite frequently he chose the more sympathetic, more romantic choice over the dark one.  In fact, it looks like they became so inclined this way that they had to cut things out to make him a believable villain, like CGI-ing the mask back on in the "Han Solo is your father scene" and cutting the "Compassion for her" thing out.  So when JJ was asked about the ashes, he said the last thing that they were supposed to be in the creative process, but then he moved on from that point many steps in the opposite direction in the final product.

But I'm rambling.  Basically the point is that if you expect to get tight consistency at all times from JJ you will be disappointed, IMO.  He's not Tolkien or Rowling.  He is a design-thinking, open and free process, brainstorming kind of guy.  This approach leaves some messiness at times, but it also allows for great innovation and moments of brilliance.  Because JJ is so free in his thinking IMO, the cliffside scenes went in ... changing the whole tone of the movie forever ... for the better ... and JJ was not afraid to do this because he is not afraid to constantly revise.  Also, keep in mind he wanted an extra year for the movie.  Disney only gave him 6 months.  IMO, JJ was never going to be Tolkien-esque, but under this schedule he was going to be even less so, which goes a long way to explaining the uneven nature of some scenes in the movie.

However, that all being said, JJ's instincts are excellent.  He gets the emotional gist of the story and the acting so right.  GL may have had this internal mythology, but if you can't translate it in a way that inspires the audience, that structure is worth nothing.  JJ may get lost in his details and talk too much, but he did some amazing stuff that I never thought I would ever see in a SW movie.  The characters never felt more real to me and the overall acting was never better.  For me, that's huge.

Finally, one of the reviews I read for TFA talked about how JJ is excellent at setting up the scaffolding, creating the worlds, with lots of details, like he's a great interior designer, but that his long-term execution sometimes comes up short.  I think this is a very apt description.  JJ picked strong actors across the board, not hit and miss selections like we saw in the prequels.  He made Han, the most charismatic of the 3, the old-hand guide of the movie.  He knew to keep Luke out so as to not overwhelm Rey.  He created a movie that left the audience with a million options, and as such gave Rian Johnson a great place to start from.

So now to the long-term execution part.  If it was JJ who was writing and directing Episode VIII, I would be more nervous that he was getting himself too deep in the woods with his details.  But that's not the case.  JJ's world-setting in largely in place.  Someone else gets to execute the long-term story.  Someone who seems to be known for having a defined vision and tight end products.  It's like JJ gets to set up the world, but Rian gets to define it and set its limitations.  Their talents are complementary, and further, I am quite confident, based on reputation and AD's recent comments, that Rian is going to set up scenario so strong that a few "chatting too much" slips from JJ will not matter at all by the time the credits are running for Episode VIII.  That movie is going to be what our new vision of SW is.  TFA was just the teasing trailer.

Edit: Sorry for all the italics. I meant it to be much less.

@sidesolocousin

This is a excellent meta on JJ.

spacebaby45678 wrote:@sidesolocousin

This is a excellent meta on JJ.

@spacebaby45678

Thank you! You and @FrolickingFizzgig have got me blushing today. I need to start work on a serious project and I just keep writing here! It's a good day for board conversation.

@SoloSideCousin:

I am not good with gifs, but I do applaud too. The movie has flaws but it also has awesome moments otherwise we would not be here after 3 months+ discussing it. We have to give JJ that. The fight between Rey and Kylo in the snow is a gem. Nothing can erase that. And he gave us Kylo. No JJ, no Kylo as we "know" him. We will forgive the slip. Actually I am not mad with JJ. I've seen a few interviews (videos) of him and he sounds like a genuinely nice guy who shows passion for his job.

I think the issue here was that it was adding to some other, let's say, ambiguous communications from others in the same time period and at one point you're standing there and wondering what the heck LF is thinking or if they are actually thinking it through at all.

Who would have thought, but those ashes have made it to show stealer status now.

@SoloSideCousin That was excellent! Thank you for providing your perspective on this.

When you mentioned JJ's babies, I can't help but remember this    

SoloSideCousin wrote:I just wanted to say a few last things about JJ and his judgment that might ... might ... help build some consensus for everyone. :-)

I like JJ a lot.  I think he is very talented guy.  I also think that his brain clicks a new idea every second, which is largely a good thing, but has some negative side effects.

First off, JJ is a good director, but he is not a great director at this point in his career, IMO.  He has not reached the heights of his mentor, Steven Spielberg, nor has he shown the ability to achieve precise internal consistency in any of his works along the lines of Francis Ford Coppola with The Godfather and The Godfather Part II, or the way Scorsese does in Goodfellas or The Departed, or the Coen Brothers with Fargo and No Country For Old Men.  These are works where almost every question is addressed, where every "T" is crossed and every "I" is dotted.  These are all incredibly tight, consistent works.  

JJ is not on that level as a director, nor is TFA on that level as a movie.  There are a ton of inconsistencies and missed moments sprinkled throughout TFA (believe me, my hyper-observant husband gave me the full list ).  Also, as a once viewer of Alias, it is obvious that JJ is very enamored with little details, so much in fact that he doesn't generally successfully hold them all together.  

You are going to get inconsistencies in a JJ project because I believe that he is extremely open in his organic creative process.  That can lead to amazing things that get added in at the last minute, like the bridal carry and the late-shot, "choker" footage on the cliffside because at the last minute JJ decided he needed it or inconsistencies like only two stormtroopers going to Niima to fetch the droid when cop shows show more agents on the scene.  But with so many ideas running around, consistency can be tough to achieve, especially when you are more inspired by one aspect of the story than others.  We have seen pretty good evidence of this bias with the meticulous attention paid to Ren and Rey scenes, but very little attention paid to Finn's characterization nor the drama of the space fighter scenes.  In other words, we know who JJ's "babies" were.  

Moreover, like with this "ashes' interview, his constantly churning mind loses some of those details through the cracks.  I think this is what happened in that interview.  Basically, JJ went through a long, constantly revising creative process for Kylo Ren that started as a monster eating star matter and ended with a panting unmasked Ren pulling a GFFA nervous force user Lloyd Dobler on the cliffside.  That is a crazy journey.  I mean the interviewer even said that JJ said the ashes thing like an afterthought, almost like he just went to whatever the ashes were the last time he thought about them before he said "Oooohhhh I need a cool shot to put Ren's helmet down on ... Let's use that old footage."  The thing is that by the time he got to that old footage decision he had already moved 10 steps ahead of the enemy ashes.  The enemy ashes thing had already been cut.  Now he was about having Ren slam down and put aside his dark side weighted helmet so he can show himself to Rey.  See the whole mindset has changed by then.  JJ had a bunch of decisions to make for Ren throughout the whole process and quite frequently he chose the more sympathetic, more romantic choice over the dark one.  In fact, it looks like they became so inclined this way that they had to cut things out to make him a believable villain, like CGI-ing the mask back on in the "Han Solo is your father scene" and cutting the "Compassion for her" thing out.  So when JJ was asked about the ashes, he said the last thing that they were supposed to be in the creative process, but then he moved on from that point many steps in the opposite direction in the final product.

But I'm rambling.  Basically the point is that if you expect to get tight consistency at all times from JJ you will be disappointed, IMO.  He's not Tolkien or Rowling.  He is a design-thinking, open and free process, brainstorming kind of guy.  This approach leaves some messiness at times, but it also allows for great innovation and moments of brilliance.  Because JJ is so free in his thinking IMO, the cliffside scenes went in ... changing the whole tone of the movie forever ... for the better ... and JJ was not afraid to do this because he is not afraid to constantly revise.  Also, keep in mind he wanted an extra year for the movie.  Disney only gave him 6 months.  IMO, JJ was never going to be Tolkien-esque, but under this schedule he was going to be even less so, which goes a long way to explaining the uneven nature of some scenes in the movie.

However, that all being said, JJ's instincts are excellent.  He gets the emotional gist of the story and the acting so right.  GL may have had this internal mythology, but if you can't translate it in a way that inspires the audience, that structure is worth nothing.  JJ may get lost in his details and talk too much, but he did some amazing stuff that I never thought I would ever see in a SW movie.  The characters never felt more real to me and the overall acting was never better.  For me, that's huge.

Finally, one of the reviews I read for TFA talked about how JJ is excellent at setting up the scaffolding, creating the worlds, with lots of details, like he's a great interior designer, but that his long-term execution sometimes comes up short.  I think this is a very apt description.  JJ picked strong actors across the board, not hit and miss selections like we saw in the prequels.  He made Han, the most charismatic of the 3, the old-hand guide of the movie.  He knew to keep Luke out so as to not overwhelm Rey.  He created a movie that left the audience with a million options, and as such gave Rian Johnson a great place to start from.

So now to the long-term execution part.  If it was JJ who was writing and directing Episode VIII, I would be more nervous that he was getting himself too deep in the woods with his details.  But that's not the case.  JJ's world-setting in largely in place.  Someone else gets to execute the long-term story.  Someone who seems to be known for having a defined vision and tight end products.  It's like JJ gets to set up the world, but Rian gets to define it and set its limitations.  Their talents are complementary, and further, I am quite confident, based on reputation and AD's recent comments, that Rian is going to set up scenario so strong that a few "chatting too much" slips from JJ will not matter at all by the time the credits are running for Episode VIII.  That movie is going to be what our new vision of SW is.  TFA was just the teasing trailer.

Edit: Sorry for all the italics. I meant it to be much less.

@SoloSideCousin
Beautiful. Couldn't have put it better if I tried.

Film is also different than prose. You're way more likely to make mistakes, and those mistakes are going to be much more noticeable.

I was on of those absolutely shocked in the worst possible sense by this Ashgate, as people call it on tumblr and wrote several posts on the Redemption thread about this. I haven't had time to read the posts here yet but what I am going to write probably belongs here, and also on Kylo's or Adam's thread. Kylo's figure is larger than life and this concept of redemption may be alien to this character the way he is constructed now. He firmly believes what he is doing is for a just cause, that he is right, so what he does is not because he obtains some kind of pleasure and satisfaction from it or for personal gain, I don't think his motivations are selfish either. He should also be considered as what he is, a warrior at war, and his actions pondered in this context, war. Does this means his actions are less horribe due to this? Of course not and they have tainted his soul all the same and make him suffer all the same, but I'll try to explain why I don't thin he should be be clasified as "evil" or a "villain".

Have a look at John Boyega's words, they are very important.

One of the most interesting things about this Star Wars movie is that kinda like the other ones before, there was kinda like a definite identity with good and evil. You knew who was on one side and who was on the other. Whereas I really have bought the idea of Kylo Ren believing what he’s doing is right and it’s true and good for the world, and I think that’s what makes it a lot more sinister.” - John Boyega

I agree that Kylo will be redeemed, I have no doubs about that, but by principle I've always thought writers should be very careful with what they say. Today I've been talking to a friend about a very talented writer who has had had too much exposition on the media lately and how certain things he's been doing lately are making him appear in a less than positive light. My friend commented on another very good writer she hasn't read more books by because the guy is quite disagreeable and haughty in interviews. I'm not going to write their names here but they are both fantastic and critically acclaimed writers. It is even worse with writers like JK Rowling, because she has commited mistakes like adding "canon" conceptions that never appeared in her novels.

What JJ did was a mistake, he should never have done that because his slip is affecting the movie in the wrong way. He should have avoided that unfortunate comment. And no, it's not serious to affect your team's work in a bad way because the film is really good and there's serious writing and acting there. The reactions on tumblr and everywhere are not good at all for the movie and cause confusion in the audience, both general and more involved in the fandom, more enthusiastic, like us. Writers are just people but their work may tanscend their mortal frames if they are good enough, think of Cervantes and Shakespeare, for instance. Their work is grand and maginificent and outlived them for centuries, that's why I think art belongs to the collective imagery, great movies belong to the audiences and also respect is due to the writers and team that took part in the project. I don't like one bit what he did. I also dislike that he said he lelft that shot in the interrogation scene because it looked cool. Cool? How silly is that comment when talking about something that really seems serious? it makes me wonder if this guy really knows what the writers have produced, because saying that shot was cool screams of fanboy frivolity, and in that scene, there was too much at stake to dismiss it that way. He could have kept the shot and not talk about the ashes.

Now to what really matters, I'll say something that many won't agree with, but it's at the root of these problems to categorize the character we are having, I don't think Kylo Ren is a villain, I never saw him as a villain while watching the movie because he was not written or performed as a villain. I don't mean he didn't do horrible actions, he did, but he was not depicted as a villain. If you ask me what was the best thing in the movie I'll say his scene with his father, every time you ask me, because in a movie where everything seemed more or less a rehash, and a vehicle to introuduce perfect lovable Rey and funny, honourable and brave Finn, that scene stood out like an incredible sore thumb,that belonged in a f...... Greek tragedy. That's what I thought the first time I saw it, powerful and shocking like a Greek tragedy. I said this before in previous posts, but I never dared to say what this implies, that Kylo Ren was never intended to be portrayed as a villain. The concept of villain versus hero didn't  exist in Greek tragedies, and neither existed this idea of free will as something people can always exert that is so ingrained in our modern Western societies. The ancient Greeks believed in Fate and that sometimes horrible things happen to people who are intrinsically good and honourable. Also, honourable people can do "evil" actions, although this concept of evil can't really be applied to those plays.

Ben is the legacy of both the OT and the PT heroes, like many protagonists or Greek tragedies he is a prince and a warrior and his death would have a dramatic impact in his "world",but above all his is a personal tragedy that will affect and destroy the Skywalker-Solo family for ever.

@Panki and @SoloSideCousin have explained how to consider Ben Solo's predicament from a realistic point of view, and yes, you have helped me to accept him as a the damaged brain-washed, horribly abused child he must have been, because looking at AD's haunted eyes and listening to his broken voice, or observing his appaling body language that's the vibe I got. Also, he is a warrior, dressed like a warrior monk and also a figure of death, but the lives he's taken have taken a toll on him and his soul is torn and tainted. I'm sure Kylo doesn't see himself as evil, or a villain, what's more, he says Han,Finn and Chewie (Rey's friends) are traitors, murderes and thieves and is offended and really surprised that Rey wants to kill him. He thinks he is righteous and doesn't do anything for selfish personal gain, until he meets Ray, probably.

He is like a Greek tragedy "hero", because they are still considered heroes, although tragic ones, and seems noble and not a twisted evil villain, but some great misfortune comes to him and he does horrible actions, either by choice (like Kylo killing Han) or because he doesn't know what he he is doing or who he really is. For instance, Oedipus kills his father and marries his mother, but he doesn't know his real identity so he doesn't know the man he killed was his father or the woman he maried was his mother.

The plot is much more complicated than this, but what is similar between a tragic hero in a Greek tragedy and Kylo Ren is that they do horroble things, not just killing but killing their family members or dearest friends but they are not presented as villains for that, but as people who do heinous crimes for diverse reasons. In Kylo's case, the reason may be deception by Snoke, he's been groomed for so long that he considers Snoke his father figure and does anything he tells him to do, thinking that Snoke is right (The Supreme leader is wise). He has probably been groomed to an extent he thinks he has to kill his father, for some reason Snoke has concocted. Kylo is mistaken, he thinks he is honourable and when he kills he kills enemies (an act of war) but he is wrong. He thinks he is been unable to kill Han because he is weak, he "has to" do it, but he is "not strong enough". The fact is that he is doing things he abhors from a visceral point of view (he loves his father) but his mind (warped and twisted by Snoke's grooming)believes he is doing what he must. Perhaps he is doing these things for a greater good, or perhaps he thinks he is doing these things (killing Han included) for a greater good. In the end it is the same, his intentions are honourable but his actions horrible.

Whatever the intentions his actions taint him anyway and his soul is nearly lost, but he isn't a black seed and he still resists, there's still good in him. In Greek tragedies this idea that exerting one's free will is always possible doesn't apply and misfortune comes and makes a character kill his own father because he doesn't know who he is (Oedipus). He has to pay for his crime anyway and he does, in these tragedies it doesn't matter if the protagonist did something by choice or by mistake, it is horrible and he must pay for the horror of what he did. He feels horrified and suffers a great deal for what he did and never questions the justice of his "punishment". The ending is tragic even though the protagonist is never seen as inherently evil.

This is what Kylo/Ben seems, a warrior who has committed horrors because killing is not what Finn and Poe do, it seems they are playing videogames when they kill ST and FO pilots, but this is not true, they are real people, just like San Tekka and the villagers. I'm not going to discuss what kind of killings are justified or not, what I mean is that Kylo is introduced as a warrior and not a serial killer. And warriors very often do horrible things that lead soldiers to trauma when war is over. Killing is never clean, it destroys both the fallen and the survivors, the killers and the killed. I think this is the way to understand Kylo. Yes, he did and does despicable and horrible actions, he kills and is tainted by what he does, but not because he is evil, but because he thinks his goal, his cause is just.

As for the ashes, I read on tumblr that in the Illyad it's said that Achilles burned his enemies but as a sing of respect. They burned the fallen in ancient Greece and not to keep them as trophies, but as a funerary ritual out of respect. If Kylo is based on Greek tragedy protagonists, this could be the reason why he keeps ashes in his room but I never heard of stories where Greek warriors kept those ashes in their houses.

So, this is why it is so difficult for me to accept certain things, I need all the information relevant to be on the screen and don't really want to hear about creepy concept art that was discarded or ideas that ended up cut out of the movie. If they cut them, I don't want to hear of them. Knowing that they changed things when the film was about to be released makes me doubt them, changing things like that,any time, makes me mistrust the result and doubt they really know what they are doing. Writers change things, of course they do, but once the final work is there, they'd better keep what could have been for themselves. This information affects very much the perception of a character most don't understand and is damaging. I don't like the mystery box idea, because surprise is overvalued, what matters is a consistent story that makes sense, not a roller coaster changing things in the last minute for shock effect.

Adam Driver has a charity that offers theatre performances to soldiers to help them cope with trauma and the effects of having lived under extreme circumstances. Those performances are seriuous and he was trained in classical theatre, the plays they perform are no rom coms but serious stuff. He probably has much to do with changes on the character showing him as this tragic soldier tainted by the horrific acts of war he commited.

In Greek tragedies there's no redemption or free will because those are modern concepts present in our society but there is horror for what one has done and resposibility. The tragic hero pays the price. SW is not a Greek tragedy, but Oedipus went into exhile after his crimes, although he never wanted to commit them. His mother commited suicide for a crime she didn't know she was committing. Kylo has been brainwashed and grommed by a monstruous predator and really thinks his cause (whatever it is) is just,but he is still tainted by his actions. Kylo can't stay with the DS and neither can he go back to his mother and the Resistance, perhaps self-inflicted exhile will be his option, like Oedipus (Oedipus also blinded himself for a crime he commited unintentionally). Or perhaps he won't be a Greek tragedy figure to that extent.

Anyway, these possibilies make more sense to me than saying he is just a black seed and so he was born evil,that he is "a villain" but they he will fall in love and this will make him see the light and change. That's too simplistic. I expect much more from him, he is too good a character for any less.

These two fantastic posts on Tumblr helped me a lot to put my ideas together, because they point in the same direction.

http://ms-qualia.tumblr.com/post/142409686970/moral-injury-tragedy-and-kylo-ren
http://oldadastra.tumblr.com/post/142400975449/a-post-about-ashes-and-the-iliad

MoonFyre wrote:@SoloSideCousin That was excellent! Thank you for providing your perspective on this.

When you mentioned JJ's babies, I can't help but remember this    

@MoonFyre

Awesome gifs!!! He really is like a parent in those bits!!!

SoloSideCousin wrote:

MoonFyre wrote:@SoloSideCousin That was excellent! Thank you for providing your perspective on this.

When you mentioned JJ's babies, I can't help but remember this    

@MoonFyre

Awesome gifs!!! He really is like a parent in those bits!!!

@SoloSideCousin

Oh my god, this is so cute!

I agree with you TFA is a good movie, that if it wasn't we wouldn't be here discussing it the way we are,but this doesn't me we should be unable to see its flaws, and one of them is how they dealt with Finn, like @SoloSideCousin also points out in her post. Finn could have been Spartacus great and he was relegated to nice commic releaf. I have the impression John Boyega can perform an amazing renegade ST,he is nice and funny, yes, but I think he has detpth too and when he seemed conflicted, when he said his truth and that he was not a Resistance hero,that there were shadows in him, he seemed so promising. He may be a great character and I hope he will be in the next movie. I didn't like it when he killed his fellow ST and we didn't get any hints about how he dealt with that emotionally.

It's true that Kylo and Rey are JJ's babies, but he didn't manage to convey this to the GA. Most people didn't get it. They insist that Rey is the most important character and then Finn and Poe. I can't understand why but they believe that. Poe wasn't important as a character, although Oscar is very charismatic and gave the character an aura of adventurous space swashbackling hero, but his character is not pivotal and never was meant to be that.

I'd say Rey and Kylo, but specially Kylo are the most important characters in the movie, far above Finn, who would be the third in this respect. What's more, Kylo is the most important character in the movie, and most people don't get it. Most villains are in movies just to make the plot interesting and as a foil for the protagonists, to make them shine, but this is not the case, Kylo is the eye of the storm, the most important character in the movie. The problem is that perhaps this is too sublte for too many people to grasp. I don't think we should expect the GA to be so enthusiastic and watch the movie so many times or anlalyse it in such detail. Perhaps they were too subtle and now they have the actors leaving clues here and there to make people see they are mistaken in important points (like Rey saying she is not a Solo and also that she bonded very quicky in a familial way with people she has no blood relation with,making it clear she can't be a Solo or a Skywalker). They were so interested in keeping mysteries and not being predictable that perhaps they went too far, because most viewers are missing Kylo's character, importance and implications completely.

They may think he is a villain, OK, but they should never think he is weak, whiny or bratty, because that's perceiving the character wrong. He is no entitled brat who can't get over a less than happy childhood and having too busy parents. Far from it, he is a tragic figure and should be pitied, as tragic "heroes" in Greek tragedies were. You can't be expected to like him or find excuses for what he did, but you are expected to realise the magnitude of his tragedy and pain, and so moved to feel compassion for him,which doesn't men you can condone or excuse his actions. Well, JJ manages to achieve this with us, but we are a minority when compared to all the people who saw the movie. Perhaps the film was too sublte, so sublte that we looked for that forum to see that we weren't alone. I can't comment this movie with my friends or family, or with my students they way I do with you, because most don't get it and I don't feel like trying to change their minds. Perhaps they should have been less subtle and less ambiguous about Ren. No need to show his reasons at this point, but make it clearer that he is not a whyny crybaby or that in the final scene he never tried to kill Finn and Rey. Really, most people, especially guys didn't get it and this is a problem because they thought he was a disastrous villain and she was a Mary Sue. This is important disservice to the movie and especially Adam's brilliant performance.

Liking the movie, and I loved it, doesn't mean I can't see where it wasn't so good, especially after analysing and commenting so much. If it was Meh, I woulnd't bother, but it is damn good and I am a bit disappointed that more people didn't get the treat it really is.

when asked about working with director Johnson he was a little more open.

Comparing him to JJ Abrams: “Their temperaments are different. I feel like there was so many moving pieces in the first one – just trying to solve it and set the vocabulary for what it was.

“There’s a lot of that anxiety is gone, because people have developed a language. I think it’s more of a testament to Rian coming into something very established and making it [his own].

“I can’t wait to get on set, just because he’s so unassuming and intelligent and approachable. The script they’ve come up with is really great.”

That’s a resounding thumb's up from Driver. We’re excited, to say the least.

I have copied this from an article about AD and episode VIII. I think it is very telling. His words make it clear there were so many pieces at work at the same time it was difficult for him to put everything together. Many people have been unable to see what's really meaningful in the middle of such a turmoil. I don't know, I would have liked to have had more time to really feel the weight of some scenes, they moved on to the next to fast, IMHO.