Renperor and Reyempress Possibility Discussion

This thread is for speculation and theorizing on Kylo and/or Rey becoming rulers.

Well, they'd be the ultimate power couple for sure...

Guys, use this thread to discuss Renperor and Reyempress and not the one that I made at the same time!

OK, so, Renperor has been a bit of a controversy in Reylo community. Some like it (me), some hate it.

I see potential if they take the great historical ruler path and not Palpatine 2.0 or All Monarchies Are Bad Cause They Are Monarchies. Republic is not working so perhaps change in concept would do.

I think you can be intrigued by Renperor *and* be a Redemptionist.  There are all kinds of ways to make Renperor a part of a longer redemption journey, especially if they go past Episode IX, which I would be shocked if they didn't.  He does not have to become Renperor as part of an evil "I love the powah!!!!" trip.  I think @snufkin's notion of Ren as MacArthur/Shogun is very intriguing.  After all these "true believers", he could be the pragmatic guy who straightens things out for a few years while the galaxy gets its act together government wise.  *Also* having Kylo/Ben walk away from power for the greater good would be the biggest redemption moment of all.  Anakin *never* would have done that sith.  I think Kylo/Ben would.  I'm with @Reynak on this.  I see Kylo/Ben being very burdened about what he thinks he needs to do and his force power in general.  I know not everyone shares that view, but it is an intriguing viewpoint to discuss.  They could do a whole post-WWII/Marshall Plan kind of parallel with it for all we know.  The galaxy certainly seems to need that Marshall Plan outlook, not that forever entrenched enemies outlook, which even Leia still has in Bloodline until she gets to know Ransolm and understand him better.  For all we know Rian Johnson could be inspired by the ways the Allies acted post-WWI and the way things went Post-WWII.  Obviously, Post-WWII was not perfect by any means ... but that punishing by Treaty of Versailles sith went out the window, thank God for all of us.  The Galaxy needs that kind of peacemaking moment ... Kylo, being half-dark/half-light, would be the perfect person for that transition.

Oh yeah, king and queen. I stick to this idea!

I've been thinking about Renperor as a possible path to redemption. If the trilogy ends with Kylo Ren seeking atonement, does that negate him taking over the FO after doing away with Snoke? What if the FO could ever be used as a force for good? It reminds me of Casterfo's views on the Empire in Bloodline. Leia is obviously very against that viewpoint, but in reality the Resistance is just as illegal. They're all imperfect political systems, and if Kylo adjusts his viewpoint he could be a benevolent ruler.

Rian Johnson was involved and it's possible that's for the political landscape context and not just about Ben solo's backstory.

Pro: writer could have very interesting material for further movies, with a lot of conflict
Cons: the typical positive message of SW, with ending always filled with hope, would be weakened. I consider prequels ending hopeful because we knew from the start tha Vader would be born but his twins too.

I personally am not a big fan of the idea because I don't view Kylo as a character who would necessarily be a fit ruler. He seems to be a simple man caught under the great burden that is his lineage, as the son of Han and Leia and the grandson of a powerful Sith lord. The burden was too much for him. He is young-minded, petulant and ambitious. He has power, and he wants to use it. If Pablo's dictionary is actually canon for Episode VIII then he feels it is his duty to "rule". It's not necessarily what he actually wants. He feels that because of where he came from he alone can take on that burden.

So yeah, I don't think Kylo would be a good Renperor at all. I don't think he actually wants it. He wants to want it as much as he wants to be like his grandfather, but he's actually right, he can never be as "strong" as Darth Vader because his idea of strength is in itself skewed. He can't be like his grandfather. He has to find his own strength and his own mission, and he has to accept that it's not his burden alone.

Rey could be his balance.  It would be like the Asian Phoenix/Dragon mythology that @Sylvia Snow talks about.  When the two (the yin and yang) unite, they create bliss.  Also, Rey would be the downtrodden people's voice to balance his privilege.

@Darth Dingbat

We have two more movies left.Since RJ conrtibuted to the book I exect/hope some of the issues that were presented in the book to appear in the next movie.Plus if Kylo has Rey by his side people might not be so poosed to the idea of him as a ruler.And there's the quote from Collin Treverrow that Rey's very important to the entire Galaxy.
It's not even necessarit for the next emperor/empress to continue through the Skywalker bloodline(though the OT fanboys will be extremly happy if that happened).They can selext new ruler like people on Naboo did.

BastilaBey wrote:I've been thinking about Renperor as a possible path to redemption. If the trilogy ends with Kylo Ren seeking atonement, does that negate him taking over the FO after doing away with Snoke? What if the FO could ever be used as a force for good? It reminds me of Casterfo's views on the Empire in Bloodline. Leia is obviously very against that viewpoint, but in reality the Resistance is just as illegal. They're all imperfect political systems, and if Kylo adjusts his viewpoint he could be a benevolent ruler.

Rian Johnson was involved and it's possible that's for the political landscape context and not just about Ben solo's backstory.

@BastilaBey

Yes, apparently Rian was extremely instrumental in the characterization of Ransolm.  Also, Ransolm is a wonderful proto-type of what Kylo could become.  There are a ton of similarities.

I honestly think that, if they take Renperor route, they could surprise all and make him a brilliant ruler. Everyone would expect Palp 2.0 but that's a waste. Galaxy is huge and Republic concept obviously cannot hold all planets in order because too much time is wasted on bickering and idleness. Bloodline covers that in detail, TP also showed us glimpses of it.

So ruling has to be centralized to a degree to provide efficiency of decision making. And as pointed out several times, in TP and Bloodline, an Emperor figure who is not like Palpatine could be the solution.

I know some people think Reneperor's not that likely but I think it would be a great idea if they plan on making more movies(which I'm sure they are).We've already had old and new Republic.Having another one would be very unorginal and repetative since we know it will have to become corrupt once again so there could be new conflict in the next trilogy.A new Empire however opens the door for many  interesting posisbilites since it's not been done before(yeah I know it happened in the EU but Jacen was evil so it was more like the old Empire) and while Kylo might be a horirbale ruler as of TFA we have tow movies left for his character to grow and change.
@vaderito,Padme wasalso a very popular and beloved ruler(to the point where people wanted her to rule them permanently)so Kylo would be honoring his grandmother as well.

CienaRee wrote:@Darth Dingbat

We have two more movies left.Since RJ conrtibuted to the book I exect/hope some of the issues that were presented in the book to appear in the next movie.Plus if Kylo has Rey by his side people might not be so poosed to the idea of him as a ruler.And there's the quote from Collin Treverrow that Rey's very important to the entire Galaxy.
It's not even necessarit for the next emperor/empress to continue through the Skywalker bloodline(though the OT fanboys will be extremly happy if that happened).They can selext new ruler like people on Naboo did.

@CienaRee

Well, in that case the trilogy would take a total U-turn. What I saw in TFA was the beginning of a quest to bring Han and Leia's son back to the Light. A man's journey back to the Light and to life from the total mess his life has become, woven into a larger plot about the Force itself. TFA's focus was emotional, mystical and larger-than-life; there were no hints there of it turning into a Henriad tetralogy meets House of Cards.

Seriously, there seems to be a tendency to forget that dude killed his own father. Do you honestly think they're going to reward the dude who killed his father with an imperial throne? If that happens, it'll just cement him as Darth Caedus and his end will no doubt be just as uplifting.

Not to mention that I would see it as extremely weird if Star Wars suddenly glorified totalitarian regimes. Bloodline shows a tension-filled situation that might easily give rise to a dictatorship. There are historical precedents for that. That doesn't mean a dictatorship actually is - or will be presented as - the right answer to anything. I think anyone who has ever lived under a totalitarian regime could tell you whether they prefer democracy over totalitarianism.

vaderito wrote:I honestly think that, if they take Renperor route, they could surprise all and make him a brilliant ruler. Everyone would expect Palp 2.0 but that's a waste. Galaxy is huge and Republic concept obviously cannot hold all planets in order because too much time is wasted on bickering and idleness. Bloodline covers that in detail, TP also showed us glimpses of it.

So ruling has to be centralized to a degree to provide efficiency of decision making. And as pointed out several times, in TP and Bloodline, an Emperor figure who is not like Palpatine could be the solution.

@vaderito
Or Reyperor could be Reyperor alone. I think Rey could be a great Reyperor. Wow, that name sounds worse than Reypoe.

Copy-pasting my messages from elsewhere:

Well, Renperor might be a really good monarch if (a) Kylo actually showed any potential leadership qualities (as it is, I can't imagine a worse man for the job), (b) there weren't the whole "Dark Side" thing clouding it all (because there's no way you can sell a patricidal Dark Sider user as a "good" monarch), and (c) if they had more than two films to cover the plotline.

Rey would be a thousand times better Empress, tbh.

Late Mediaeval era is my forte so I'm personally more interested in the workings of monarchies than of republics. But I can't see it working in the context of these films, especially with so much else going on at the same time.

---------------

A good, strong ruler would certainly present interesting possibilities for SW to explore if it weren't for:

- The fact that said "good ruler" killed his own father and would then be getting his redemption via ruling the galaxy... mmmm, #sounds legit

- If it didn't look likely that the Force plot is going to be about the secrets of ancient history and mystical stuff about balancing the Force in some way, instead of the practicalities of ruling a galaxy.

- If TFA had actually alluded to a complex political situation in any shape or form. Yeah, we got that in Bloodline. A book that's going to be read by a few percent of the GA, at most.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Or Reyperor could be Reyperor alone. I think Rey could be a great Reyperor. Wow, that name sounds worse than Reypoe.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Renperor and/or Reyempress/Reyperor (lol) are likely not happening but Visual Guide and "I will finish what you started" make hints that could be read as Renperor. So I wouldn't discard the possibility completely. I just hope that they surprise us if they take such turn and instead of boring predictable Palp 2.0/Space Caligula, they give us great Renperor.

As you said, he doesn't want it but feels it's his duty. That could lead to more balanced ruling than if he wanted it.

But they probably won't go there.

vaderito wrote:I honestly think that, if they take Renperor route, they could surprise all and make him a brilliant ruler. Everyone would expect Palp 2.0 but that's a waste. Galaxy is huge and Republic concept obviously cannot hold all planets in order because too much time is wasted on bickering and idleness. Bloodline covers that in detail, TP also showed us glimpses of it.

So ruling has to be centralized to a degree to provide efficiency of decision making. And as pointed out several times, in TP and Bloodline, an Emperor figure who is not like Palpatine could be the solution.  

@vaderito

I agree with you about Kylo.  I don't think he's incompetent at all when he's not having an emotional meltdown.  Not that these are great examples because he's evil then, but he was a lot more competent in his mission on Jakku than Hux was.  Hux sent two guys and two fighters.  Even the local police send 10 officers when they are trying to arrest somebody.  If Kylo can pull himself together emotionally, which means accepting his dark/light self and stop the self-hating and confusion, I think he would be fine.  His parents were natural leaders and intelligent, why not him? He just has his emotional/force baggage to get over that they didn't have.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on Kylo's potential leadership qualities. The man is mentally unstable, emotional as f***, not really liked or respected by anyone in TFA. He's an outsider, the Other - that's why I like him, actually. The man we meet in TFA is definitely not an inspiring leader of men. He's clearly not stupid, but he's also not big on rational thinking.

Now, Rey on the other hand is total leadership material. Charismatic, competent, quick-thinking, rational, pragmatic, and clearly a natural at giving orders that people actually want to obey.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Copy-pasting my messages from elsewhere:

Well, Renperor might be a really good monarch if (a) Kylo actually showed any potential leadership qualities (as it is, I can't imagine a worse man for the job), (b) there weren't the whole "Dark Side" thing clouding it all (because there's no way you can sell a patricidal Dark Sider user as a "good" monarch), and (c) if they had more than two films to cover the plotline.

Rey would be a thousand times better Empress, tbh.

Late Mediaeval era is my forte so I'm personally more interested in the workings of monarchies than of republics. But I can't see it working in the context of these films, especially with so much else going on at the same time.

---------------

A good, strong ruler would certainly present interesting possibilities for SW to explore if it weren't for:

- The fact that said "good ruler" killed his own father and would then be getting his redemption via ruling the galaxy... mmmm, #sounds legit

- If it didn't look likely that the Force plot is going to be about the secrets of ancient history and mystical stuff about balancing the Force in some way, instead of the practicalities of ruling a galaxy.

- If TFA had actually alluded to a complex political situation in any shape or form. Yeah, we got that in Bloodline. A book that's going to be read by a few percent of the GA, at most.

@Darth Dingbat
I'm definitely with you on the Renperor thing... not as a conclusion of any kind, anyway. TFA to me was the beginning of the fight for Kylo's soul, the story of a tortured, lonely and angry young man's self-delusions starting to be shattered. The whole point for me was that Kylo was wrong (i.e. delusional). I saw nothing to indicate that there would be a story about the delusional, patricidal villain getting everything he ever thought he deserved because of his bloodline. That would just not be satisfying (to me). I would much rather see him pine and angst while Rey and Luke continue to crush his dreams and delusions. Slap some sense into that boy LOL.

Darth Dingbat wrote:I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on Kylo's potential leadership qualities. The man is mentally unstable, emotional as f***, not really liked or respected by anyone in TFA. He's an outsider, the Other - that's why I like him, actually. The man we meet in TFA is definitely not an inspiring leader of men. He's clearly not stupid, but he's also not big on rational thinking.

Character development. he hasn't started as a Renperor, he has to get there. if he does.

Now, Rey on the other hand is total leadership material. Charismatic, competent, quick-thinking, rational, pragmatic, and clearly a natural at giving orders that people actually want to obey.

@Darth Dingbat

Zzzzzz, that's why superhero origins are never about guys who are already SH material. Zero to hero is compelling. Hero to hero is not. That's why I dread Poe Plot. he's such total leader package that, when he slips into the role cause Leia is injured or pretending that she is, it's going to be smooth sail. His men will love him. he'll win victories duh! he'll do the most heroic sith himself. wake me up when something esle is on.

My Reympress,
My love,
The light of my life,
What is thy bidding?
(but I'm warning you, sometimes I let my personal interests get in the way of orders.....)

Darth Dingbat wrote:

CienaRee wrote:@Darth Dingbat

We have two more movies left.Since RJ conrtibuted to the book I exect/hope some of the issues that were presented in the book to appear in the next movie.Plus if Kylo has Rey by his side people might not be so poosed to the idea of him as a ruler.And there's the quote from Collin Treverrow that Rey's very important to the entire Galaxy.
It's not even necessarit for the next emperor/empress to continue through the Skywalker bloodline(though the OT fanboys will be extremly happy if that happened).They can selext new ruler like people on Naboo did.

@CienaRee

Well, in that case the trilogy would take a total U-turn. What I saw in TFA was the beginning of a quest to bring Han and Leia's son back to the Light. A man's journey back to the Light and to life from the total mess his life has become, woven into a larger plot about the Force itself. TFA's focus was emotional, mystical and larger-than-life; there were no hints there of it turning into a Henriad tetralogy meets House of Cards.

Seriously, there seems to be a tendency to forget that dude killed his own father. Do you honestly think they're going to reward the dude who killed his father with an imperial throne? If that happens, it'll just cement him as Darth Caedus and his end will no doubt be just as uplifting.

Not to mention that I would see it as extremely weird if Star Wars suddenly glorified totalitarian regimes. Bloodline shows a tension-filled situation that might easily give rise to a dictatorship. There are historical precedents for that. That doesn't mean a dictatorship actually is - or will be presented as - the right answer to anything. I think anyone who has ever lived under a totalitarian regime could tell you whether they prefer democracy over totalitarianism.

@Darth Dingbat

It wouldn't be a totalitarian regime they choose to select new ruler every few years or something like that.Naboo did it.
Also  Leia herself came from a the royal house  of Organa who were rulers in their own right(Bail was pricne and Breha was actually the queen) so it doesn't look like the Alderaan people had problems with that.
You also seem to be uder the impression that everyone will hate Kylo for killing his father.While this will undoubtedly e the acse for some not everyone will share this opinion if Kylo actually proves that he's a capble ruler and bring peace and prosperity.In RL many monarch killed family mebers yet they were still  popular beloved by their people(awful I know but that was the reality during those times).
Don't get me wrong I'm not judging you or anything and I hope you don't feel like it.I completly undrstand your issues about Renperor and the movies  glorifying totalitariansm(my own country was under totalitarianism for many years so  believe me I completly get it) but I don't think that would be their intentions if Renperor is their endgame plan.

I have tons of head canon about Renperor, probably leftover exposure to the EU...

The son of Han and Leia Organa Solo, Jacen Solo was a leading Jedi Knight who proved crucial in defeating the Yuuzhan Vong and protecting the galaxy during the Yuuzhan Vong War. The grandson of Darth Vader, Darth Caedus was a Sith Lord who turned against his family and friends, betraying his former principles and leading the Galactic Alliance he once championed into a reign of terror as he attempted to bring order and stability to a fractured galaxy. It was Solo's desire to protect the galaxy and his increasing willingness to accept any cost in that cause that facilitated his fall to the Sith.

I still can't believe that Snoke is the "Big Bad" of this trilogy, and neither is Kylo... So why does Kylo feel the wieght of the Galaxy on his shoulders ( paraphrasing) TFA novelization? Does he have visions of an external threat to the Galaxy? In addition, I have to believe that Han's death was for something greater in the scheme of things....

vaderito wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
Or Reyperor could be Reyperor alone. I think Rey could be a great Reyperor. Wow, that name sounds worse than Reypoe.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Renperor and/or Reyempress/Reyperor (lol) are likely not happening but Visual Guide and "I will finish what you started" make hints that could be read as Renperor. So I wouldn't discard the possibility completely. I just hope that they surprise us if they take such turn and instead of boring predictable Palp 2.0/Space Caligula, they give us great Renperor.

As you said, he doesn't want it but feels it's his duty. That could lead to more balanced ruling than if he wanted it.

But they probably won't go there.

@vaderito

I agree that they probably won't go there, but it's not impossible.  I think the team was afraid of touching politics after GL mucked it up so much, but Bloodline displayed an interesting and nuanced view of politics IMO. And RJ was a big contributor on that.  They may trust him to handle the politics.  And frankly if I got anything out of Bloodline it was the problem of this "true believer" thing.  Leia gets cynical about politics, but then makes an extreme choice IMO based on her emotional history in the Rebellion.  The FO is obviously bad and extreme.  To me it looked like the galaxy was crying out for some Lincoln or the folks who rebuilt Germany and Japan after the war.  They need some centralized government.  They just need it to be truly contained so imperialism doesn't grow again.  That's why I like the MacArthur/Shogun thing for Ren.  He might very well be the only "can work with" person left standing on the side of the FO, and if Bloodline is any indication, the FO represents a very large constituency.  I think he would be a great transition person, especially if he and Rey worked on that transition together.  Then like George Washington he could leave it all once a system is set up ... and finally realize this sith is not his burden forever.