The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

IoJovi wrote:@kroi

That's the way I see it too.  In addition, I've said this before, but I really do think PlotGate is being thrown out there only as a way to preserve the mystery box.  They want no single faction thinking they have it all figured out.  Which alright fine, but to @snufkin 's point, we're the ones who have been sithed on the majority of the time, and it'd be great to be thrown a bone or two.  We have gotten many bones up until now, which is why this whole thing came as a swift kick in the gut.

I'm not really buying the fact each director has THAT much creative control, and I think it's just part of some poorly planned marketing choices.  

As for those still doubting romantic Reylo, ask yourself this.  What the heck does the ST look like without a single legacy Skywalker child who isn't involved in any romantic story whatsoever?  We know Rey isn't one.  So where does that leave us?  

@IoJovi

Agree that it could partly be marketing and also wanted to add this from Colin: "I’m surrounded by some really, really brilliant producers and brilliant creative minds – Kiri Hart and the Lucasfilm story group and my producer [Michelle] Rejwan and Kathy Kennedy and also J.J. and Rian, Larry Kasdan. I mean, these are the best minds available and everybody’s engaged in making sure this is the most satisfying and emotionally resonant conclusion that we can possibly deliver.” - Colin Trevorrow.

Doesn't sound like he's off doing his own thing at all....

@IoJovi - yep. Like look at all the truly vile racist comments that came out before TFA's release about having two of the leads being PoC. The marketing played up Finn with the light saber and "now ALL kids can see somebody who looks like them up on the screen as a hero." So they make these two statements, one of which is meant as a misdirect from a central plot points (Rey is the Awakening & potential new Jedi). The fact that they did that, and my example about female fans you cited, it's not hard for me to imagine why some fans would feel like it's more a matter of "I don't know if I should invest my trust given the abuse over something that they weren't going to include after all."

I also believe Rey and Kylo are set up for some significant connection, whatever it may be. After the way their scenes were presented in TFA, I just can't see the story NOT developing a connection in some way, that goes beyond cardboard adversaries. IMO, in theory, there could have been a very compelling story involving Rey and Kylo as siblings, but that possibility is extremely unlikely at this point. I don't think there would ever be a compelling story between Rey and Kylo if they are cousins. They don't even know each other. Also, with Luke in the mix, the significant relationship would be between him and Rey, not Rey and Kylo. A cousin connection would be a very dry rivalry without a lot of substance and wouldn't be about the connection between Rey and Kylo. It would be about Rey and Luke and Vader/Anakin's legacy. That would make Rey and Kylo feel more like extensions of other characters or instruments in the story, than their own characters.

I've also been tempering my romantic Reylo expectations. I still think there's a possibility of something developing (especially non-adversarial), but I don't have super high hopes for a "traditional romance" (for lack of a better term). Not to give more credence to romance gate than it deserves, but I find it hard to believe no one from LF saw Kamp's jab at Reylo in his article, which to me means, there's likely no "romance" between Rey and Kylo in TLJ, at least. We will see whether Rian lays a foundation for something and what Colin does with Episode IX. I think as long as Rey and Kylo aren't cousins and Rian develops their connection in a compelling and intriguing way that goes beyond duels and basic light vs. dark, there's potential for Colin to work with in Episode IX.

Saracene wrote:For me, it’s kinda hard to see how a completely platonic connection would work. Maybe Rey and Kylo have some sort of strong Force-based bond and that’s what draws them together. But then it’s like, you’re basing a character’s relationship on something that no one in real life can relate to. The Force doesn’t exist in the real world and there’s no real-world equivalent to it either. It just feels awfully disconnected from the real human feelings if that’s where their connection remains for the rest of the story.

I don’t know if I agree that TFA set up the romance, necessarily; I could see it setting up Kylo’s intense interest in Rey that is potentially romantic. But it hardly sets up Rey reciprocating feelings back, and for her to go from hate to love in a space of one film is a tall order. Also, even if JJ was thinking of a future romantic storyline between the two, there’s no telling if he had actual concrete ideas on how and when to bring it about. JJ strikes me as someone who is always about “the moment” rather than a long-term planner.

@Saracene

The bolded: Exactly the thing I wanted to say yesterday but failed miserably. LOL

Kessel wrote:  
I've also been tempering my romantic Reylo expectations. I still think there's a possibility of something developing (especially non-adversarial), but I don't have super high hopes for a "traditional romance" (for lack of a better term). Not to give more credence to romance gate than it deserves, but I find it hard to believe no one from LF saw Kamp's jab at Reylo in his article, which to me means, there's likely no "romance" between Rey and Kylo in TLJ, at least. We will see whether Rian lays a foundation for something and what Colin does with Episode IX. I think as long as Rey and Kylo aren't cousins and Rian develops their connection in a compelling and intriguing way that goes beyond duels and basic light vs. dark, there's potential for Colin to work with in Episode IX.

@Kessel

Kamp released Rian's full quote so that shows there was some intervention from LF. He didn't do it for the goodness of his heart, and it's a known thing that most (only) upset fans were Reylos.

I see no problem.

Its a given that a romance between Rey and Kylo would make an amazing story, but I feel there are three factors that determine whether it happens or not.

1. The Future of the Skywalkers

The trilogy movies till now have been about the Skywalker family, and the two romances have also involved members from the same family....but the question arises- what is their plan after this trilogy?

Just before Disney acquired LF, TCW was still airing on cartoon network and a story arc was created about six younglings with the plan to eventually create a spin off show about their lives as rebels and survivors of order 66.



However, when Disney came into the picture, TCW remained canon but it was quickly wound up, the younglings were assumed to have died during order 66 and instead a new character named Caleb Dume/Kanan survived order 66 and joined an assorted group of rebels. It is interesting that one of the TCW younglings named Pietro bears a striking resemblance to Kanan.



So Disney effectively started afresh with a new set of heroes. Now the Skywalker family is a different matter..they're not minor characters in a small story arc but an integral part of the SW world...so it would be difficult, if not near impossible to move away from them. For the sake of argument, Disney could always make Finn-Rose the only romance, end this trilogy, focus on anthology movies for a few years and start a new trilogy involving a new family and new characters. While theoretically possible, this move would be a big waste of 40 years of brand goodwill.

2. The Nature of Rey and Kylo's Mysterious Connection

To be frank, the recent events have made me a bit cautious when it comes to what LF has in mind for the relationship between Rey and Kylo....and I think the whole mysterious connection thing has been left open-ended enough for them to justify any interpretation they wish to pursue.

But the best way to get a clearer picture is to look at the three known canon relationships involving a mysterious connection to see what they have in common.
- The first is the bond between Yoda and his former student Count Dooku, which Sidious exploited using sith alchemy to find Yoda's whereabouts and to try and corrupt him.
- The second is the bond between Quinlan and Asajj, where she was his teacher and he learned the practices of the Nightsisters. Their relationship was romantic, they could sense the others thoughts and could anticipate and mimic the other's battle moves. The downside is that Asajj died saving Quinlan's life.
- The third is the relationship between Caleb Dume/Kanan and his master Depa Bilaba. They developed a bond the moment Kanan set eyes on her floating unconscious in a bacta tank. Again, Depa sacrificed her life to save Caleb during order 66.

So the one common thing in all three cases is a master-student relationship..and this has to happen between Kylo and Rey considering he has already offered to teach her which I see as foreshadowing. I can also see a romance being possible considering they are both young and attractive. The part that worries me is that in 2 out of 3 cases, one of the pair dies saving the other. Another slightly worrying possibility is that Snoke could decide to exploit the bond between them to locate Rey (and Luke) as Sidious did in the case of Yoda.

So again I think Rey and Kylo will at the very least have a strong spiritual bond or a very deep and protective relationship, if not a romantic one. They could always leave it open ended at the end of Episode 9 and show an anthology movie a couple of years later showing them getting married even if they don't want to create another trilogy. In the worst case scenario, I think they'll be like Anakin and Ahsoka, where many fans wish they could have ended up together romantically and mourn the wasted potential.

3. Audience Response

This is a tricky one. While LF claims they planned everything years in advance, we know for a fact that Rian Johnson re-wrote parts of the script after Episode 7 was released and the audience response was known. So this could go one of two ways- maybe Reylo wasn't initially supposed to happen but LF saw how well people liked their chemistry and decided to write it in. Conversely, maybe the angry reactions to Han's death scared them and they decided to instead write out the romance, maybe waiting to see how audience react to Kylo's story in TLJ before deciding what direction to take.

I'll be honest....for all JJ's great story and visuals, I dislike the fact that he had Kylo kill Han... while it was a beautiful scene, it is something a lot of fans (even regular ones) find hard to deal with...I'd have much preferred the original idea of Han trying to save Kylo and getting accidentally killed by Luke. It would have definitely lessened the Kylo hate, the death would have been accidental and Han would still have a heroic end.

So I really feel they will end up deciding how to take the story forward, whether to continue the Skywalker saga and whether Rey will have a romance after watching how the GA (not just the hardcore fanboys who hate Kylo or us fans who love Kylo) responds to TLJ.

panki wrote:Its a given that a romance between Rey and Kylo would make an amazing story, but I feel there are three factors that determine whether it happens or not.

1. The Future of the Skywalkers

The trilogy movies till now have been about the Skywalker family, and the two romances have also involved members from the same family....but the question arises- what is their plan after this trilogy?

Just before Disney acquired LF, TCW was still airing on cartoon network and a story arc was created about six younglings with the plan to eventually create a spin off show about their lives as rebels and survivors of order 66.



However, when Disney came into the picture, TCW remained canon but it was quickly wound up, the younglings were assumed to have died during order 66 and instead a new character named Caleb Dume/Kanan survived order 66 and joined an assorted group of rebels. It is interesting that one of the TCW younglings named Pietro bears a striking resemblance to Kanan.



So Disney effectively started afresh with a new set of heroes. Now the Skywalker family is a different matter..they're not minor characters in a small story arc but an integral part of the SW world...so it would be difficult, if not near impossible to move away from them. For the sake of argument, Disney could always make Finn-Rose the only romance, end this trilogy, focus on anthology movies for a few years and start a new trilogy involving a new family and new characters. While theoretically possible, this move would be a big waste of 40 years of brand goodwill.

2. The Nature of Rey and Kylo's Mysterious Connection

To be frank, the recent events have made me a bit cautious when it comes to what LF has in mind for the relationship between Rey and Kylo....and I think the whole mysterious connection thing has been left open-ended enough for them to justify any interpretation they wish to pursue.

But the best way to get a clearer picture is to look at the three known canon relationships involving a mysterious connection to see what they have in common.
- The first is the bond between Yoda and his former student Count Dooku, which Sidious exploited using sith alchemy to find Yoda's whereabouts and to try and corrupt him.
- The second is the bond between Quinlan and Asajj, where she was his teacher and he learned the practices of the Nightsisters. Their relationship was romantic, they could sense the others thoughts and could anticipate and mimic the other's battle moves. The downside is that Asajj died saving Quinlan's life.
- The third is the relationship between Caleb Dume/Kanan and his master Depa Bilaba. They developed a bond the moment Kanan set eyes on her floating unconscious in a bacta tank. Again, Depa sacrificed her life to save Caleb during order 66.

So the one common thing in all three cases is a master-student relationship..and this has to happen between Kylo and Rey considering he has already offered to teach her which I see as foreshadowing. I can also see a romance being possible considering they are both young and attractive. The part that worries me is that in 2 out of 3 cases, one of the pair dies saving the other. Another slightly worrying possibility is that Snoke could decide to exploit the bond between them to locate Rey (and Luke) as Sidious did in the case of Yoda.

So again I think Rey and Kylo will at the very least have a strong spiritual bond or a very deep and protective relationship, if not a romantic one. They could always leave it open ended at the end of Episode 9 and show an anthology movie a couple of years later showing them getting married even if they don't want to create another trilogy. In the worst case scenario, I think they'll be like Anakin and Ahsoka, where many fans wish they could have ended up together romantically and mourn the wasted potential.

3. Audience Response

This is a tricky one. While LF claims they planned everything years in advance, we know for a fact that Rian Johnson re-wrote parts of the script after Episode 7 was released and the audience response was known. So this could go one of two ways- maybe Reylo wasn't initially supposed to happen but LF saw how well people liked their chemistry and decided to write it in. Conversely, maybe the angry reactions to Han's death scared them and they decided to instead write out the romance, maybe waiting to see how audience react to Kylo's story in TLJ before deciding what direction to take.

I'll be honest....for all JJ's great story and visuals, I dislike the fact that he had Kylo kill Han... while it was a beautiful scene, it is something a lot of fans (even regular ones) find hard to deal with...I'd have much preferred the original idea of Han trying to save Kylo and getting accidentally killed by Luke. It would have definitely lessened the Kylo hate, the death would have been accidental and Han would still have a heroic end.

So I really feel they will end up deciding how to take the story forward, whether to continue the Skywalker saga and whether Rey will have a romance after watching how the GA (not just the hardcore fanboys who hate Kylo or us fans who love Kylo) responds to TLJ.

@panki

I totally agree with the bolded, and it’s something that has worried me since even before Romancegate and Plotgate.  I think that they might have gone too far by having Kylo kill Han and I think now they might really have their work cut out for them to get the GA on board with both Kylo’s redemption, as well as a Reylo romance.  I mean, maybe they can pull it off.  I hope they can.  Because romantic Reylo is what I’m really hoping for.  I think that Platonic Reylo/Allied Reylo/Pure Force Bond Without Romance Reylo is just not enough for a Star Wars trilogy.  I think romantic Reylo has the potential to be truly epic, and if TPTB decides not to go for it, well, I think they’re missing a golden opportunity to create something really great and memorable in this trilogy.

Rimfaxe96 wrote:

I agree with everything lol. I'd be very confused/annoyed if in Episode 9 the force users end up going on a suicide mission just to kill them all off to get rid of those nasty loose ends, and Finnrose is the last storyline standing. Or similar scenarios.

As for the Zuko comparison - think less of Zuko and Aang, but Zuko and Katara. Zutara wasn't popular for nothing (despite the obvious ending of Aang x Katara) - in the end Zuko 'bonded' with everyone in the group to make up for his past sh%t, but had to work extra hard to convince Katara. After all he had already betrayed her trust directly AND she thought of him as the same people who killed her own mother. After helping Katara face her mother's killer they become close friends, to the point of being standard partners in battle (the fight training against "melon lord" Toph, Zuko vs Azula vs Katara); add scenes like him saving her from being crushed by rocks and staying on top of her for a little too long and there you go, Zutara was born (and judging by a few comments on YouTube there are still a few people who are bitter about it not happening!). Plus, their elements - fire and water, direct opposites, much like dark and light side.

So, think of Zuko's developement if Aang and Mai weren't present - and there you go.

Much reylo. Such authentic trust building. Very romance.

@Rimfaxe96

Oh, I see. Personally I'm one the fans who would have liked to see Zutara, although I realized it was not in the plans.

It would be interesting simply because they had more to overcome, since she had personal reasons to dislike him. And plus, there are some scenes...like touching the scar. Really? And finally, well, at least he's tall enough for her.

Actually, I think the problem is that the creators think of Aang as the protagonist of ATLA. As the protagonist, the gets to finally bond with this enemy and gets his together with his crush. It works. The interesting story is Zuko and Aang.

If we were to take Katara as the protagonist (and we could argue so), then a more epic love story would be more fitting for her. ATLA has no female gaze whatsoever in Katara's relationship with Aang. It's even awkward, since he's shorter and looks younger than her. But if we look it through Aang's eyes, it's amazing. He saves the world and gets the girl he wants. So it works. Zuko has his own love story which is neat as well. It works.

The difference for the ST is that Rey is the protagonist. Had Finn been the protagonist, Finn-Rey would work, from Finn's pov. It's not the case, however. So I think that's the big difference.

AceofWands wrote:Oh, I see. Personally I'm one the fans who would have liked to see Zutara, although I realized it was not in the plans.

It would be interesting simply because they had more to overcome, since she had personal reasons to dislike him. And plus, there are some scenes...like touching the scar. Really? And finally, well, at least he's tall enough for her.

Actually, I think the problem is that the creators think of Aang as the protagonist of ATLA. As the protagonist, the gets to finally bond with this enemy and gets his together with his crush. It works. The interesting story is Zuko and Aang.

If we were to take Katara as the protagonist (and we could argue so), then a more epic love story would be more fitting for her. ATLA has no female gaze whatsoever in Katara's relationship with Aang. It's even awkward, since he's shorter and looks younger than her. But if we look it through Aang's eyes, it's amazing. He saves the world and gets the girl he wants. So it works. Zuko has his own love story which is neat as well. It works.

The difference for the ST is that Rey is the protagonist. Had Finn been the protagonist, Finn-Rey would work, from Finn's pov. It's not the case, however. So I think that's the big difference.

@AceofWands

Agreed. Unless they're going to pull a Korra ending and let Rey's new love interest be the nearest sidekick I just can't see a way around reylo anymore.

ZioRen wrote:Even if Rian doesn't do much with it, if Reylo is the canon direction I hope they heavily hint or make it clear in some respect in TLJ. Just the idea of spending another two years having the same arguments and being called delusional gives me the stirrings of a headache.

@ZioRen

Expect nothing to change. According to Adam Driver Rian Johnson didn't waste time dumbing the movie down for the GA - we'll probably get more material to discuss about the developement of each character, perhaps even reylo-wise, but I doubt the movie's intentions will reach more people than TFA has.

Ah well. At least we'll get new arguments. And ignore the anti's. They'll deny reylo until a NSFW scene of those characters appears on screen in theaters.

Darth_Awakened wrote:

Saracene wrote:For me, it’s kinda hard to see how a completely platonic connection would work. Maybe Rey and Kylo have some sort of strong Force-based bond and that’s what draws them together. But then it’s like, you’re basing a character’s relationship on something that no one in real life can relate to. The Force doesn’t exist in the real world and there’s no real-world equivalent to it either. It just feels awfully disconnected from the real human feelings if that’s where their connection remains for the rest of the story.

I don’t know if I agree that TFA set up the romance, necessarily; I could see it setting up Kylo’s intense interest in Rey that is potentially romantic. But it hardly sets up Rey reciprocating feelings back, and for her to go from hate to love in a space of one film is a tall order. Also, even if JJ was thinking of a future romantic storyline between the two, there’s no telling if he had actual concrete ideas on how and when to bring it about. JJ strikes me as someone who is always about “the moment” rather than a long-term planner.

@Saracene

The bolded: Exactly the thing I wanted to say yesterday but failed miserably. LOL

@Darth_Awakened

Soooo much this.  Any bond or mysterious connection outside of what we as human beings recognize and can identify with is going to feel disingenuous.  While having a connection through the Force is great as a secondary benefit, it's not something people experience in real life. If indeed that's the sole and primary way they're bonded, and that's where the story ends, it's going to feel unfulfilling - not just to us but to the GA as well where they'll be looking for a satisfying meaning to everything that's happened and where it ends up.  

I'm still nearly at the 100% mark that romantic Reylo is a given by the end of IX, if not at the end of VIII.  Nothing about the VF debacle, nor PlotGate has changed my mind in that regard.  Rian Johnson did say in an interview by the end of his movie everything would be clear as to where each story line was headed, so given that, I think it's the latter.  

We have had so many things point in our direction for the last year and a half that I'm not going to throw it all out for some stupid misquote in a magazine.  There's romance in VIII, but according to John Boyega when addressing a FinnRey shipper, he said it's not going to go how you think it's going to go.  Carrie Fisher asks Daisy about her first space kiss without giving away who the recipient will be.  Very telling.

EDIT: @Rimfaxe96 Even if we don't get a kiss, I sure as hell hope that we get something less ambiguous.  I guess this goes back to my quote above about Rian Johnson saying things will be clearer at the end of VIII, and that gives me confidence about not having to go through the same tired arguments for the next two years.

Kessel wrote:
I've also been tempering my romantic Reylo expectations. I still think there's a possibility of something developing (especially non-adversarial), but I don't have super high hopes for a "traditional romance" (for lack of a better term). Not to give more credence to romance gate than it deserves, but I find it hard to believe no one from LF saw Kamp's jab at Reylo in his article, which to me means, there's likely no "romance" between Rey and Kylo in TLJ, at least. We will see whether Rian lays a foundation for something and what Colin does with Episode IX. I think as long as Rey and Kylo aren't cousins and Rian develops their connection in a compelling and intriguing way that goes beyond duels and basic light vs. dark, there's potential for Colin to work with in Episode IX.

@Kessel

But see the thing is VF also referred to Kylo as a Sith, and Lucasfilm has adamant that Snoke and him are NOT Sith! And Rian took pains to distance himself from Kamp's comments which were not from their interview.... I understand people tempering their expectations, but don't understand why people really think #romancegate debunked anything.

kroi wrote:

Kessel wrote:
I've also been tempering my romantic Reylo expectations. I still think there's a possibility of something developing (especially non-adversarial), but I don't have super high hopes for a "traditional romance" (for lack of a better term). Not to give more credence to romance gate than it deserves, but I find it hard to believe no one from LF saw Kamp's jab at Reylo in his article, which to me means, there's likely no "romance" between Rey and Kylo in TLJ, at least. We will see whether Rian lays a foundation for something and what Colin does with Episode IX. I think as long as Rey and Kylo aren't cousins and Rian develops their connection in a compelling and intriguing way that goes beyond duels and basic light vs. dark, there's potential for Colin to work with in Episode IX.

@Kessel

But see the thing is VF also referred to Kylo as a Sith, and Lucasfilm has adamant that Snoke and him are NOT Sith! And Rian took pains to distance himself from Kamp's comments which were not from their interview.... I understand people tempering their expectations, but don't understand why people really think #romancegate debunked anything.

@kroi

Exactly this.

Also, if the creators really wanted Reylo debunked, it would have come from a member of the cast most likely - just like when Daisy debunked Rey Solo, and when John Boyega debunked FinnRey. In this case, if that was truly their intention and going from the previous pattern, it would come from Adam Driver. Since I haven't seen a single thing like that, I'm going to state plainly there's nothing to see here.

kroi wrote:

Kessel wrote:
I've also been tempering my romantic Reylo expectations. I still think there's a possibility of something developing (especially non-adversarial), but I don't have super high hopes for a "traditional romance" (for lack of a better term). Not to give more credence to romance gate than it deserves, but I find it hard to believe no one from LF saw Kamp's jab at Reylo in his article, which to me means, there's likely no "romance" between Rey and Kylo in TLJ, at least. We will see whether Rian lays a foundation for something and what Colin does with Episode IX. I think as long as Rey and Kylo aren't cousins and Rian develops their connection in a compelling and intriguing way that goes beyond duels and basic light vs. dark, there's potential for Colin to work with in Episode IX.

@Kessel

But see the thing is VF also referred to Kylo as a Sith, and Lucasfilm has adamant that Snoke and him are NOT Sith! And Rian took pains to distance himself from Kamp's comments which were not from their interview.... I understand people tempering their expectations, but don't understand why people really think #romancegate debunked anything.

@kroi

Yes, seriously, Rian went through so much pain to clarify his comments. Why would he do that if the intention had been to take a jab at Reylo? Or to calm down Reylo expectations? RJ CLEARLY stated that his quota referred only to a HL type romance, he clearly stated that he never called Reylo fanfiction, he clearly stated that his ACTUAL quote was clear.

Meanwhile, LF is doing everything they can to cool down Reywalker, and Finn-Rey. Even Stormpilot has been debunked. And that leave us... with basically only one plausible LI for our protagonist.

It was just a stupid journalist, sorry.

I know people hear so many negative comments that they start feeling insecure, but there's no reason for that.
They just want the audience to be curious.

So yeah, maybe this is the end of the Skywalker line, according to KK. Oooooh, this might even be the end of the main saga SW movies! Right?
Cause Disney loves to do this:



Nope. There will be new Skywalkers. I believe that they'll wait many years to continue the main saga, because it avoids audience fatigue, but eventually they'll continue. And I bet these new Skywalkers won't come from cloning or a one night stand with a previously unknown character, because it doesn't fit the genre.

As to Kylo kiling Han. Well, of course it's disturbing. Of course it's a great obstacle to Kylo's redemption, and a great obstacle for any romance there. But who said stories had to be easy? Han having an accidental death would make it easy to pave the way for Kylo's redemption. But good stories should not be easy. Obstacles and conflict are what make stories good stories. So I like Kylo killing Han just because of how bold it is. And if they want to, they can attenuate his guilt, and give some plausible explanation. I don't think it's going to be a big deal.

IoJovi wrote:I'm still nearly at the 100% mark that romantic Reylo is a given by the end of IX, if not at the end of VIII.  Nothing about the VF debacle, nor PlotGate has changed my mind in that regard.  Rian Johnson did say in an interview by the end of his movie everything would be clear as to where each story line was headed, so given that, I think it's the latter.  

Me too. I believe a kiss will definitely happen at some point in IX at the very least. Also, did not know Rian said that by the end of TLJ we will know where each story line is headed. Yes! Do not want two more years of arguments within the fandom. There are so many proven clues/hints that point to Reylo regardless of the VF fiasco, so I choose to be positive. Plus making Reylo a slow burn thing will only make the ship more likeable and realistic. They are taking the time with it, and that´s what I want.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

tukicarreno wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:Personally, I think Adam and Daisy were originally cast to play each other's love interests. The chemistry between them cannot be denied. And this is also how JJ directed TFA - it was all leading to a big romance filled with intense drama, attraction, and a deep soul connection on top of it. I do believe that. JJ had even promised a central romance for the ST in a 2013 interview, which tells me that he had intended it.

This would be amazing if it featured romance as well. It's possible that Rian was unable to bring these two characters together in such a way and make it believable, or he decided to sanitize their relationship for some reason. As TFA is written, Kylo is totally vulnerable to Rey's light, and she currently stands the best chance of turning him; it's the foundation of a truly epic romance and a powerful message of forgiveness, healing, and hope, if they decide to take it there.

Agreed.  I refuse to believe they would never use Daisy and Adam´s chemistry to the fullest. TLJ will plant more seeds and it will  come to fruition in episode IX. They really struck gold with Adam and Daisy´s. Even when they are not in character in the few times they have been alongside each other, you can tell. Their chemistry is off the charts.

@tukicarreno

Exactly!  And let's not forget that they reworked some of John and Daisy's early scenes together to remove tension between the two of them. PlotGate or not, that speaks volumes about whether or not those two characters were ever intended to be a romantic pairing. If there was any question, you think that JJ would have left the tension there and let Rian take things wherever he wanted.

The same goes for Adam and Daisy. Different editing and a few different dialogue choices could have fairly easily removed the villainous crush aspect. They didn't need to add the choker shots in re-shoots, etc. JJ knew where Rian was going with the story when those changes were made.

@ISeeAnIsland

Villainous crush was always going to be there whether Reylo will be romantic or non romantic, because Rey is someone who can bring back Ben Solo. Kylo has to have something or someone to push him there and it was shown that Rey is the light that might bring him back. His family tried but ultimately Kylo's redemption was gonna be the key for him moving forward or for Kylo and Rey relationship.

Saracene wrote:For me, it’s kinda hard to see how a completely platonic connection would work. Maybe Rey and Kylo have some sort of strong Force-based bond and that’s what draws them together. But then it’s like, you’re basing a character’s relationship on something that no one in real life can relate to. The Force doesn’t exist in the real world and there’s no real-world equivalent to it either. It just feels awfully disconnected from the real human feelings if that’s where their connection remains for the rest of the story.

I don’t know if I agree that TFA set up the romance, necessarily; I could see it setting up Kylo’s intense interest in Rey that is potentially romantic. But it hardly sets up Rey reciprocating feelings back, and for her to go from hate to love in a space of one film is a tall order. Also, even if JJ was thinking of a future romantic storyline between the two, there’s no telling if he had actual concrete ideas on how and when to bring it about. JJ strikes me as someone who is always about “the moment” rather than a long-term planner.

@Saracene

I think it was. Just far to many things to be considering coincidences. From chocker shots, bridal carry, hidden hearts, both of them checking each other, Kylo's crush, her looking back to see if he's okay, force bond/connection/chain etc. Of course their relationship might serve bigger things about the Force and Kylo's redemption which might be what is Rian concentrating on in TLJ when it comes to Rey and Kylo, but who's to say romantic Reylo can't be done in the midst of it? I think it can.

This perfectly fits into what Rian said that romance is not the centerpiece of the trilogy but rather product of other events. Kylo and Rey are connected to the Force who calls to them for a bigger purpose, but as of result of completing this bigger purpose, they might fall for each other. Because even crush is not a love in the sense of Anakin and Padme, Hand Leia. Both of them has to overcome their demons and obstacles to be at the point of this being possible. Kylo killing Han, his fall to the Dark Side vs Rey's parentage, Luke. They want to belong somewhere and only real option is for them to be together and belong to each other. Finn, Poe, Luke all are her friends but none of them can understand Rey or Kylo. Only Kylo and Rey can understand each other.

JJ is obviously in the known about TLJ plot and he thinks is awesome, wish he wrote it. If TFA was a set up in his mind for romantic Reylo. People at LF has to approve it and they for sure have at least plan in broad strokes. There you have an answer.

Non-romantic? This?

@DarthRen

This perfectly fits into what Rian said that romance is not the centerpiece of the trilogy but rather product of other events. Kylo and Rey are connected to the Force who calls to them for a bigger purpose, but as of result of completing this bigger purpose, they might fall for each other. Because even crush is not a love in the sense of Anakin and Padme, Hand Leia. Both of them has to overcome their demons and obstacles to be at the point of this being possible. Kylo killing Han, his fall to the Dark Side vs Rey's parentage, Luke. They want to belong somewhere and only real option is for them to be together and belong to each other. Finn, Poe, Luke all are her friends but none of them can understand Rey or Kylo. Only Kylo and Rey can understand each other.

This. Also, Rey became aware of her ability to use the Force thanks to Kylo. When he read her mind and she read his in return. When he offered to show her the ways of the Force is when she realized that what they had is the Force *not when Han and Maz gave dumped the Force exposition on her). Not to mention that she and Kylo know each other more intimately thanks to their connection through the Force than her friends and his master know about them. Her friends don't know that she is lonely, can't sleep without imagining the island, projects daughterly feelings on Han. They are the most important relationship in the movie and to each other.

Does anyone else except Kylo senses there is something special with Rey?

"Something." He sounded mystified. "There is something... who are you?"

Leia is force sensitive as well and Of course Luke. I haven't read the novelization so i really want to know if Kylo feels something as a Skywalker or just as Kylo alone.

kroi wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:

IoJovi wrote:@WhatGirl what do you think was removed from the original story premise, based on the VF article?  I haven't read the article in it's entirety, and I'm still debating on whether to pick up the issue at all after what happened with the Kamp.  

Based on the tweets I've seen, I still think we're in for romantic Reylo, but it will be a slow burn.

@ISeeAnIsland I'm completely on the same page with everything you just said.  Reylo fits every non-platonic trope imaginable in TFA.

@IoJovi

Oh, I've only read the parts of the interview that have been posted here. I don't have the magazine or the full article.

To my recollection, Rian said something along the lines of wanting to include a central romance in TLJ, but "working forward with these characters, it didn't feel..." something. My guess is he's referring to Kylo and Rey, since they are the only characters who were set up for romance in TFA, but something just wasn't working.

To be honest, I have trouble making sense of where the trilogy is headed if there is no Kylo/Rey romance, lol. I think Kylo will be redeemed and Rey will be the one to turn him... but why should he even listen to her or care? She's not family, they'd never met before... if there isn't romantic attraction then it doesn't make any sense for Rey to succeed when Han failed.

@WhatGirl

Oh yes, that part.  I remember that well.  In a nutshell, I read it as a Han and Leia type of romance, complete with comedy snark they're known for, wouldn't have worked.  I get that part, and don't disagree with it.  I actually found this very encouraging.  Had he been working with say, trying to gather up Rey and Finn into a Han/Leia type romantic scenario, I doubt he would have had a problem (and it also would have been a snooze fest.)  I'm not worried.

We know Rey and Kylo have a mountain of sith they have to work through before they can get close to that point, and the fact it's pretty much been confirmed they'll be focusing on Kylo's backstory (possibility seen through Rey's eyes through that "mysterious connection") gives me great hope.  The audience has to root for him first and foremost.

@IoJovi



I don't think as many people who have been feeling that Reylo was 'debunked' or is less likely now because of #romancegate & #plotgate, would feel that way if they read the entire articles/full quotes. As Pablo said (paraphrasing here) there is a middle ground between there being no plan at all and the directors/writers having the freedom to tell the story the way they want to tell it. The biggest thing is that JJ, RJ, & now CT, are and have been working together and if JJ was setting up a romance in TFA between Rey & Kylo, whether it's ultimately in TLJ in some way or in XI, he wasn't doing so in a vacuum.

@kroi

I don't think we should drop Reylo per se, just broaden our views and consider other possibilities that might explain Kylo and Rey's connection and how they will relate to one another in the event romance is not happening and the relationship has been made completely platonic. Honestly, a Kylo-Rey connection that is purposefully sanitized of romantic/sexual tension will feel weirdly sterile and it's not an easy thing for me to speculate about. But it may be prudent to discuss and be prepared for the chance that that's exactly what they're going to do.

What could happen is that Rey will learn Kylo's backstory and feel pity for him. She might also learn about her own family and feel horrified if it turns out they were dark siders and had anything to do with Snoke. This would definitely lead to a change of feelings on her part and a desire to redeem Ben. As for why Kylo would listen to anything a virtual stranger has to say when his own father was unable to save him, maybe Kylo and Rey together hold the key to destroying Snoke and bringing forth an order of new Force users who will learn to utilize both the light and dark in themselves.

This morning I’m firmly on the side of romantic Reylo. Something more substantial than romancegate or plotgate will need to come along to destroy my confidence in it happening. However, if we come out of this trilogy with a platonic, yet spiritual relationship that’s fine. I’ll suck it up and relish what we got. Will I be disappointed? Yes, because of the unfulfilled potential. The potential of the mysterious connection, the “don’t be afraid I feel it too”, the two disparate pieces coming together and everything else that has been laid out before us.

Whatgirl wrote:Personally, I think Adam and Daisy were originally cast to play each other's love interests. The chemistry between them cannot be denied. And this is also how JJ directed TFA - it was all leading to a big romance filled with intense drama, attraction, and a deep soul connection on top of it. I do believe that. JJ had even promised a central romance for the ST in a 2013 interview, which tells me that he had intended it.  

@Whatgirl

Honestly, this is my feelings. If Rey and Kylo were ever meant to be romantically involved you know somewhere, buried in a vault, there must be behind the scenes footage of Adam and Daisy doing a chemistry test together. Also where is the rest of the behind the scenes footage of Adam and Daisy training together for their final fight in TFA? Or maybe Daisy or Adam talking about our hero and villain meeting for the first time on Takodana? Or the interrogation scene? Perhaps they’re holding onto it for a reason? I think I’m getting a little conspiracy theorist over here, but it strikes me as odd. Maybe one day, when all the movies are out on Blu-ray we’ll get a short documentary like “Rey and Kylo Ren: Creating Balance in the Force” or something. Y’all feel free to come up with a better title lol.

If you want examples of how this type of relationship is handled without overt romance, there's Guillermo del Toro's Pacific Rim, which you'd guess is one of the movies that made KK pitch him on directing one of the ST movies.

Guillermo del Toro wrote:When I was working on the movie we had three or four different versions of the relationship between Charlie and Rinko because I wanted to see if I could make a story about two people liking each other without having to end in a kiss.

So when I shot the ending we shot three versions. I’ve never done this before, but instinctively I thought we should do three versions. We did one version where they kiss and it almost felt weird. They’re good friends, they’re pals, good colleagues.

There's also the movie Cate Blanchett made her debut in, Gillian Anderson's Oscar and Lucinda. Which was marketed as a typical costume drama romance, but both the movie and the original novel (by Peter Carey, won the Man Booker Prize) is more about soulmates, two halves, and a spiritual romance. Both movies handle the relationship in a way that is true to the characters and the story without feeling like there was more that should've been explored. And that's sort of where I fall on the 'as long as it's more than what a bunch of rabid fanboys in the comments section keep arguing.' There's meant to be a deeply intimate/personal connection between the two of them which is unsettling for many reasons, least of which being opposite sides of the conflict, more because they're both isolate/alienated/loner figures. And Oscar and Lucinda comes to mind because a bigger theme has to do with spirituality and faith in a larger/unseen force for these characters, not just religion but the concepts of chance, luck, and faith. So I could see them going that route with it being The Force having a will of its own driving these two characters.

Re: Han's death - it was a bit too much and they could have done it other ways - for example, making Kylo responsible for Han's death without deliberately killing him. Kylo better have a good reason for doing what he does, or it's hard to imagine the audience forgiving him, IMO. (Though to me personally, the attack on Tuanul village was the worst thing Kylo did; Han's death didn't feel as emotional to me as it could have, and Han forgave his son so I fail to see it as an obstacle to his redemption. In fact, even the first time I saw TFA it seemed more like a catalyst to redemption to me. In the end Kylo had completely unravelled from the horrible villain he seemed to me on Jakku.)

At the same time, though, I don't see them backpedalling on whatever story they were planning to tell (JJ and Rian were co-operating, after all) just because of the audience reaction. They would have known patricide would make the audience angry.

I know the example of Snape isn't one-to-one comparable to Kylo, but it's still a good example of someone committing an unforgivable crime that later turns out to be forgivable after all. I think it can be done, and if done well, it can be a huge twist. But basically, I think there are only two ways to do it. Either extreme brainwashing/possession/an utterly broken mind, OR a pretty darn GOOD motive. My gut feeling tells me the original young Jedi killer would have been of the first variety, and the Kylo we have now is of the second. I just feel like there's going to be a big twist that turns everything around.

WhatGirl wrote:

kroi wrote:

I don't think as many people who have been feeling that Reylo was 'debunked' or is less likely now because of #romancegate & #plotgate, would feel that way if they read the entire articles/full quotes. As Pablo said (paraphrasing here) there is a middle ground between there being no plan at all and the directors/writers having the freedom to tell the story the way they want to tell it. The biggest thing is that JJ, RJ, & now CT, are and have been working together and if JJ was setting up a romance in TFA between Rey & Kylo, whether it's ultimately in TLJ in some way or in XI, he wasn't doing so in a vacuum.

@kroi

I don't think we should drop Reylo per se, just broaden our views and consider other possibilities that might explain Kylo and Rey's connection and how they will relate to one another in the event romance is not happening and the relationship has been made completely platonic. Honestly, a Kylo-Rey connection that is purposefully sanitized of romantic/sexual tension will feel weirdly sterile and it's not an easy thing for me to speculate about. But it may be prudent to discuss and be prepared for the chance that that's exactly what they're going to do.

What could happen is that Rey will learn Kylo's backstory and feel pity for him. She might also learn about her own family and feel horrified if it turns out they were dark siders and had anything to do with Snoke. This would definitely lead to a change of feelings on her part and a desire to redeem Ben. As for why Kylo would listen to anything a virtual stranger has to say when his own father was unable to save him, maybe Kylo and Rey together hold the key to destroying Snoke and bringing forth an order of new Force users who will learn to utilize both the light and dark in themselves.

If they were making their relationship platonic, why would they create a new LI for Finn and continue to beat over people's heads that Rey & Finn are 'just' friends? The only people besides Finn & Kylo that Rey has any friendships/relationships with are Luke & Chewie and I don't think either are being set up as her romantic interest.

Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't dial back their expectations for romance in TLJ, but I personally never thought it would be as blatant in TLJ as some did... Rey & Kylo have to get on the same side first AND work through a whole lot of stuff before being a 'couple'. I do think that together they will be that perfect balance of Light & Dark that Snoke thinks Kylo is, and sure that could be without romance, but I don't think it will be.

@ISeeAnIsland

I love that term "villainous crush". It perfectly describes what I was pathetically trying to, in my tired state, describe when it comes to Kylo's behavior.

Saracene wrote:For me, it’s kinda hard to see how a completely platonic connection would work. Maybe Rey and Kylo have some sort of strong Force-based bond and that’s what draws them together. But then it’s like, you’re basing a character’s relationship on something that no one in real life can relate to. The Force doesn’t exist in the real world and there’s no real-world equivalent to it either. It just feels awfully disconnected from the real human feelings if that’s where their connection remains for the rest of the story.

I don’t know if I agree that TFA set up the romance, necessarily; I could see it setting up Kylo’s intense interest in Rey that is potentially romantic. But it hardly sets up Rey reciprocating feelings back, and for her to go from hate to love in a space of one film is a tall order. Also, even if JJ was thinking of a future romantic storyline between the two, there’s no telling if he had actual concrete ideas on how and when to bring it about. JJ strikes me as someone who is always about “the moment” rather than a long-term planner.

They could go for a very visual force bond, but then TFA did not go visual during the weird connection in the interrogation scene at all. It was all left to actors' performance. I came out of TFA convinced that a force connection between the 2 was triggered during the interrogation scene (connection not "the" canon force bond), but then a lot of people just shrug it off as "He read his mind, she read his mind, that's all." So indeed if you cannot grasp that force connection and they're not related, what is there left?

I personally find a student-teacher relationship rather boring to begin with, but between these 2, it just feels like "why did you make them a young man and a young woman in the first place?". Of course, a teacher-student relationship between a man and a woman should not automatically turn into anything romantic and the teaching could be anything but classic. Still, there has to be some challenge in the teacher-student relationship to make it interesting. What would that challenge be? The fact he killed her 5-minutes-father-figure? I would say he's the one who will suffer the most. Different views on the Force and life? I think they are quite alike actually so I would not be surprised if they end up having the same views.

I have to admit that I still fear for Rey's life sometimes. I hope the story does not go in the direction that she's the Force's tool to have balance again and that she will sacrifice her life for it. I think if they go this way, the Kylo haters will be even more insufferable. And well, as much as I don't expect a joyful Ewok-like scene at the end of IX, I shall hope it's not a super grim ending neither.

WhatGirl wrote: What could happen is that Rey will learn Kylo's backstory and feel pity for him. She might also learn about her own family and feel horrified if it turns out they were dark siders and had anything to do with Snoke. This would definitely lead to a change of feelings on her part and a desire to redeem Ben. As for why Kylo would listen to anything a virtual stranger has to say when his own father was unable to save him, maybe Kylo and Rey together hold the key to destroying Snoke and bringing forth an order of new Force users who will learn to utilize both the light and dark in themselves.

I prefer the word "compassion" as "pity" but apart from that, it's not a bad scenario. They might just be the ones meant to defeat Snoke and train new Force users. I personally would not mind. The Villainous Crush part would still bug me, but we'd have to file it under "JJ had an idea" label. And well that scenario leaves the door open for future stories.

In a way, I am happy there's still uncertainty when it comes to their relationship. It makes it interesting. We're all going to be nervous wrecks waiting for the movie to start in the theater