The Potentially Non-Romantic Connection Between Kylo Ren and Rey

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:If it turns out to be something like student-teacher, I can't even go film nerd on that one because I've watched that story happen on at least more than one soap opera. And they always end up as a couple after a huge amount of drama and angst.

@snufkin

Oh I agree. I could see teacher/student between Kylo and Rey turning into Dirty Dancing in Space very quickly. But, I guess, if they want to keep romance out of it, they could. I don't see how they could keep the UST out of it, though.

If they go that route, the Kylo hair will be mulleted with in an inch of its life. Though speaking of mullets, my first thought was Jack Wagner's character on Santa Barbara, the hipster newspaper editor (he wears suspenders!) who teaches journalism and becomes entangled with a brilliant student, who's homeless and on the run from a troubled past. Much drama ensues but they eventually live happily ever after.

Kinda ranty lol- 

I was talking to my best friend who is usually good with all this kind of stuff and like UST stuff (she really wanted Max and Furiosa to get together- thought I didn't think it was like that between them) and saw the interrogation as sexual (but also thinking they were related...) - I was telling her how Kylo is head over heels for Rey and she was like ummm yea you're seeing things. I'm surprised some of my other friends who are also into these kinds of heated UST dynamics totally missed reylo. 

It really comes down to this - he is a bad villain who killed his father AND is related to rey. People are unable to see past all this. It's one or the other or both which create this mental barrier in people's minds. While I came out of the movie without any of our evidence knowing he had to be redeemed just solely on the basis on being SW, others who also enjoy SW may not make this kind of thematic connection. I think many in GA think rey is related not because they are super fanboys but to them, being luke's kid is the only logical way of her being so powerful. 

Once Kylo's redemption is made clear as day to GA and that Rey is not a skywalker, THEN the logic will line up- He is now a good guy who has remorse, he is the last Skywalker, and so he must carry on the name! But who?! It'll be way too obvious at that point. 

Also I can't imagine those two forging a new brother sister relationship. There is far too much intensity going on there. It would be weird as hell. I was telling my other friend all about reylo and their mysterious connection, posing the question "would you ever get involved with a guy who has some major epic destiny with another beautiful girl?!" She was like noo way, I wouldn't even bother. 

Reylo also has excellent setup for future stories- their kids will be POWERFUL as hell lol. That would for sure bring up interesting issues.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:If it turns out to be something like student-teacher, I can't even go film nerd on that one because I've watched that story happen on at least more than one soap opera. And they always end up as a couple after a huge amount of drama and angst.

@snufkin

Oh I agree. I could see teacher/student between Kylo and Rey turning into Dirty Dancing in Space very quickly. But, I guess, if they want to keep romance out of it, they could. I don't see how they could keep the UST out of it, though.

@ISeeAnIsland

I know there are plenty of people who don't find Adam Driver at all attractive, but once you see his appeal you can't unsee it, especially as Kylo. I mean I've found him attractive in other roles but Kylo takes it to a whole other level! He is a great actor, as is Daisy, and I'm sure they'd give it their best shot at playing platonic if that's what the story called for. However, with the chemistry between them, it is difficult to accept that they chased down Adam Driver for the role of Kylo, knowing his most famous role at that point on Girls, and didn't see the potential for romance/major UST. The sexy scar, the way they style Adam as Kylo all point to someone playing a love interest. As a concession to those who don't find AD attractive, I would say they could have chosen to present him in a much less flattering light, but they didn't. I also thought that AD looked extra gorgeous during the Ireland shooting period as the photos from Cannes showed. Add to this the way they are styling Rey this time around with her hair mostly down and the boobgate white top, making her appear more woman than girl, well, if they're going for no attraction on either side they've got a funny way of showing it!

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

Geralt_Riv wrote:

AppleCrumble122 wrote:

Episodes X-XIII:  Starring a Luke clone made from his severed hand!!!

@ISeeAnIsland

That actually did happen in the EU. Luke getting cloned from his hand, that is.

@AppleCrumble122

This is one of the reasons I didn't like post RotJ EU stories. Jaina killing her brother is another one. Killing family member for the greater good don't feel Star Warsy to me. And add Palpatine's and Luke's clones to that. Just no! I was always more invested in stories that take place during trilogyies timelines and The Old Republic era. Please Lucacasfilm, bring Revan back to canon, show us the canon story of Darth Bane and Darth Plagueis.

@Geralt_Riv

Off-topic, eh I didn't mind the cloning thing. It made sense for the story at the time, considering the original backstory for the Clone Wars at the time were a huge experiment of clones going insane and rebelling against the Republic, starting the conflict. But I totally agree with everything else! Jacen vs Jaina was a huge mess! Another reason why Rey and Kylo aren't related, nor should they be considering all the info released after TFA. Also LF, please bring back Mara Jade!

@AppleCrumble122

I always thought why Palpatine didn't create big army of clone Palps who would be obedient to him and use them against the rebellion. The Jacen and Jaina story was really a mess. I didn't like that. Killing someone important to you because he is doing bad things is not Star Warsy to me. It is like Luke would kill his father and think that it was the right thing to do. He realise what he is doing is wrong and stop the war he started. That could have been a much better story I think. And big yes to bringing back Mara Jade.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

snufkin wrote:If it turns out to be something like student-teacher, I can't even go film nerd on that one because I've watched that story happen on at least more than one soap opera. And they always end up as a couple after a huge amount of drama and angst.

@snufkin

Oh I agree. I could see teacher/student between Kylo and Rey turning into Dirty Dancing in Space very quickly. But, I guess, if they want to keep romance out of it, they could. I don't see how they could keep the UST out of it, though.

@ISeeAnIsland

Lordy, that "teacher" moment is loaded with subtext, isn't it?!

Going back to Jyn and Cassian, I *could* see them going that route with the Rey and Kylo (overt UST, but not a single kiss, even through IX).  I hate this idea for a couple of reasons.  First, like @Darth Dingbat said, Reylo is either go big or go home.

Second, Jyn and Cassian went over the heads of so many, and quite a few out there will still be left wondering still how Rey fits into the Skywalker saga.  

Slow burn can fall under the Go Big category, but there still has to be a pay out at the end.  I'm reading a fic right now that you're aware of (Prey) and this is a slow burn done right.  

There are only two films left with many other character arcs running along side Rey and Kylo's, so I don't expect them to cover every nuance a fan fic would, but there's many parts of this fic I can see playing out on film that would be satisfying to the audience.

To me Skywalker babies have always been the least convincing argument for Reylo. You can have no romantic Reylo and still have another Skywalker generation in another trilogy X-XII. I think writers can come up with plenty of scenarios to back that one up. And it does not even have to make sense. If the GA likes episode X, they would roll their eyes at the unconvincing backstory for a new Skywalker but still go watch the movie several times and buy the merchandize.

I believe in an open end Reylo and can go for no romance at all. My only issue is the onscreen chemistry between AD and DR and the way the interrogation was presented to us. I cannot imagine that especially women at LucasFilm watched that scene and saw just another cool interrogation scene between the protagonist and antagonist. I felt so uncomfortable the first time I watched it. I was like "OMG if he's coming any closer to her face, he's going to lick her cheek." And I certainly did not go to the movie expecting that.

But they could go with him being a bit infatuated with her and the relationship moving on to a deep friendship. I guess in a way, I'd still feel a bit cheated because I don't watch SW for cheap soap opera tricks. Romance or no romance, please LucasFilm, choose your option and stick to it because you know, there is a bigger picture here with the Force, the Resistance, the brainwashed stormtroopers, the Skywalker family issues, etc.  They could also pretend there is nothing strange and slightly disturbing happening in the interrogation scene which I'd find annoying personally because I don't think I imagined stuff. Guess it's my problem, then

Anyways, it's all confusing. I don't know if an Ahsoka-Anakin relationship is something I can see for Rey and Kylo. I see them as equals and if he were to teach her, I'd see see it more as an informal accidental teaching. I can't picture Kylo as a formal teacher. But then I had a hard time believing that Anakin could be one, which is one of the reasons I do not watch TCW. The few episodes I saw, I felt like it was another Anakin as the one in the movies.

I think the open end is still a safer bet with each one going his / her way unless they have to rebuild some Force sensitive school or whatever together. Guess someone has to take care of the force sensitive youngsters without taking them from their families if possible.

@Rimfaxe96

Well, I missed the elevator eyes in RO. Can you believe it, that I still have no idea what scene people are talking about? I personally did not see any attraction between the two, but if others read it that way, fine by me. To me it's left to everyone's interpretation. Ok, I saw the movie only once and was not exactly thrilled so maybe I missed some signals.

Rimfaxe96 wrote:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Episodes X-XIII:  Starring a Luke clone made from his severed hand!!!

@ISeeAnIsland



For now I still believe Kylo will follow Zuko's path. Worst possible deed - check. Now all that's left are soul searching journey + revelation that he fluffed up (1st part of the 3rd season of Avatar - The Last Airbender), followed by joining and actively working for "the good guys" (the last episodes of the 3rd season). Wasn't there a MSW leak saying that Rey is captured at the end of VIII anyway? What if next time it isn't Finn coming back for her, but Kylo Ren?

@Rimfaxe96

Zuko gets a nice story with Aang. From enemies they became friends, I think it's pretty neat.

The difference there, however, is that Aang, the protagonist, already had a love interest in his silly crush for Katara ( it ended up not being silly, but, anyways, the LI was there from the start).

Rey does not have a LI. And please don't say Finn. TFA portrayed Finn/Rey in the least romantic  way. There's not a single look of admiration from Rey to Finn. "Do you have a boyfriend?" is said in the most non-attractive voice. They were portrayed as family. With Finn coming back, he was her family. If there was any idea of making them a potential couple, they should have had at least one single scene or a couple shots. Nothing. Also, nobody gets really excited for Finn-Rey. Some people think it's cool for representation and everything, but there's almost 0 fanart, fanfiction, etc. And it's not racism. had it been racism, Stormpilot would not be so popular! In Stormpilot there is mutual admiration, and some looks.

Anyways, so, back where I was: Rey doesn't have a LI. Rey is the protagonist. Space Opera needs romance. We can't just shoehorn someone in the last movie.

Kylo, as the (presumed) last Skywalker, needs to make little Skywalkers as well. He doesn't have a LI other than Rey.

That means that there is no logical way that Reylo can be non romantic. And I say this as someone who would totally dig a non romantic hero/villain dynamic cause I think it can be pretty cool. But then the romance side of the story would be empty or shoehorned in the last minute. Last movie, I have to say.

Rose and especially Paige are cute, but I don't think they interact with Kylo. DJ is good looking but too old, and we don't even know if he interacts with Rey. The LI can't come at the last movie.

So we have two young, attractive characters without any potential LI in their horizon rather than each other... I mean, come on!

The only other option would be Ruke. But still, what about Kylo? Why put make up and hair products and cape if he's not getting a romantic arc? It simply doesn't make any sense.

Now frankly, had these characters had other cool LI, a non romantic Reylo could be cool. I thought they would be siblings and I was looking forward to a conflicted love/hate relationship.

Ok, last one. If they wanted to make Reylo non romantic, why not make them siblings? Wouldn't it be a lot more dramatic? Cousins could also be ok. Why waste this opportunity? Why make her a random and lose the family drama? Frankly, there's only one explanation.

So from my point of view, I would enjoy non romantic Reylo, I really would, but I think the dynamic then should be different, I think we should have already seen signs of romance elsewhere, and I think that in this case they should be related.

Edit: Jyn and Cassian, I don't see why do that. I thought it was silly regardless. There was no character development whatsoever in that movie. Proof of it is that 90% of the audience came out cheering for 10 minutes of screentime that did not feature any of the "main characters". Cool shot of nostalgia, cool space battle, but nothing there. I know some people really enjoyed it, but I don't think it's a remarkable movie. Disney can't do it with the main movies.

AceofWands wrote:
Now frankly, had these characters had other cool LI, a non romantic Reylo could be cool. I thought they would be siblings and I was looking forward to a conflicted love/hate relationship.

Ok, last one. If they wanted to make Reylo non romantic, why not make them siblings? Wouldn't it be a lot more dramatic? Cousins could also be ok. Why waste this opportunity? Why make her a random and lose the family drama? Frankly, there's only one explanation.

So from my point of view, I would enjoy non romantic Reylo, I really would, but I think the dynamic then should be different, I think we should have already seen signs of romance elsewhere, and I think that in this case they should be related.

@AceofWands

Agreed and the only way this would have worked is if they knew each other before the events of TFA started. This is where that infamous theory of Rey and Kylo being cousins and at the Jedi Academy together before Kylo dropping Rey off on Jakku would have worked beautifully. If they were cousins/siblings, Ben's backstory could have included his little sister/cousin being the only source of comfort and light for him against Snoke's manipulations. But as we know from JJ's commentary and the film itself, they are not related and have never met. If they were related in this situation, it would have failed miserably because despite the Jacen vs Jaina storyline being executed horribly, one emotional advantage it had was the connection between the Solo twins as we had watched them grow up together before learning to live their own lives on separate paths which made their story tragic. A related Rey and Kylo who had never met would not have this, giving the audience no reason to care about their relationship or where their stories would go, and it would have most likely ended up as good cousin/sibling vs bad one. Boring!

AppleCrumble122 wrote:


Agreed and the only way this would have worked is if they knew each other before the events of TFA started. This is where that infamous theory of Rey and Kylo being cousins and at the Jedi Academy together before Kylo dropping Rey off on Jakku would have worked beautifully. If they were cousins/siblings, Ben's backstory could have included his little sister/cousin being the only source of comfort and light for him against Snoke's manipulations. But as we know from JJ's commentary and the film itself, they are not related and have never met. If they were related in this situation, it would have failed miserably because despite the Jacen vs Jaina storyline being executed horribly, one emotional advantage it had was the connection between the Solo twins as we had watched them grow up together before learning to live their own lives on separate paths which made their story tragic. A related Rey and Kylo who had never met would not have this, giving the audience no reason to care about their relationship or where their stories would go, and it would have most likely ended up as good cousin/sibling vs bad one. Boring!

@AppleCrumble122

I agree that the idea of Rey and Kylo in the academy together could have been really cool. While it's a very obvious storyline, that 99% of fans were guessing before TFA, it's a good storyline. Many great stories have quite predictable arcs, and yet they are enjoyable. Stupid Kylo trying to "protect" his sister/ cousin and dropping her on Jakku is interesting, Kylo turning bad to protect her is cool, even bad teenager Kylo who takes his sister/cousin away for whatever reason could be interesting.

But I disagree that they should ve known each other previously. I think that it would be interesting for Rey, who wants so desperately to find her family, to find that as her family. And it would cause conflict. Should she hate him because he killed part of her family? Or love him because he's family? Also, for someone who's desperately been waiting and hoping to find a family, to find such a dysfunctional one would be quite something. I think it could work beautifully.

And yes, I think that's the gist of it. Antis still hope for a familial connection, therefore some of them are hoping for this familiar Reylo, which I think could be interesting. OTOH, we've had more than enough confirmation that it is not the case.

Then there's the people who want him to die unredeemed and hated. Those I trully don't understand, I just don't. If they had never seen SW, ok, I'd get such wrong expectations, but for SW fans, I don't get it.

But anyways, many people are hoping for a different Reylo, that's all. Maybe we're not so different. ( I mean from the ones who want a complex cousin relationship).

And finally, I agree we don't need Kylo to make babies or be in condition to make them. If people decide to make more movies with a random Skywalker, nobody will have any reason to be upset at it. Heck, there's a famous SW character who died on screen with no known descendents. People believe Rey is his granddaughter. Rarely anyone claims that it doesn't make sense. The same thing with Skywalker. They can make one if they want to. (Hopefully not from the hand and not from a one night stand, but, who knows?)

Well, I still fully believe Reylo will become canon in episode IX.  TLJ, as many of you said, will most likely concentrate on redeeming Kylo while his and Rey´s feelings towards one another will grow.

Colin´s recent comments about big movies needing love and romance among other things to appeal to all kinds of audiences, gives me a lot of hope too!  No wonder Rian said, "I can´t speak for what Colin is doing". Maybe I am an optimistic, but IMO the romance is on the works for sure.

AceofWands wrote:Zuko gets a nice story with Aang. From enemies they became friends, I think it's pretty neat.

The difference there, however, is that Aang, the protagonist, already had a love interest in his silly crush for Katara ( it ended up not being silly, but, anyways, the LI was there from the start).

Rey does not have a LI. And please don't say Finn. TFA portrayed Finn/Rey in the least romantic  way. There's not a single look of admiration from Rey to Finn. "Do you have a boyfriend?" is said in the most non-attractive voice. They were portrayed as family. With Finn coming back, he was her family. If there was any idea of making them a potential couple, they should have had at least one single scene or a couple shots. Nothing. Also, nobody gets really excited for Finn-Rey. Some people think it's cool for representation and everything, but there's almost 0 fanart, fanfiction, etc. And it's not racism. had it been racism, Stormpilot would not be so popular! In Stormpilot there is mutual admiration, and some looks.

Anyways, so, back where I was: Rey doesn't have a LI. Rey is the protagonist. Space Opera needs romance. We can't just shoehorn someone in the last movie.

Kylo, as the (presumed) last Skywalker, needs to make little Skywalkers as well. He doesn't have a LI other than Rey.

That means that there is no logical way that Reylo can be non romantic. And I say this as someone who would totally dig a non romantic hero/villain dynamic cause I think it can be pretty cool. But then the romance side of the story would be empty or shoehorned in the last minute. Last movie, I have to say.

Rose and especially Paige are cute, but I don't think they interact with Kylo. DJ is good looking but too old, and we don't even know if he interacts with Rey. The LI can't come at the last movie.

So we have two young, attractive characters without any potential LI in their horizon rather than each other... I mean, come on!

The only other option would be Ruke. But still, what about Kylo? Why put make up and hair products and cape if he's not getting a romantic arc? It simply doesn't make any sense.

Now frankly, had these characters had other cool LI, a non romantic Reylo could be cool. I thought they would be siblings and I was looking forward to a conflicted love/hate relationship.

Ok, last one. If they wanted to make Reylo non romantic, why not make them siblings? Wouldn't it be a lot more dramatic? Cousins could also be ok. Why waste this opportunity? Why make her a random and lose the family drama? Frankly, there's only one explanation.

So from my point of view, I would enjoy non romantic Reylo, I really would, but I think the dynamic then should be different, I think we should have already seen signs of romance elsewhere, and I think that in this case they should be related.

Edit: Jyn and Cassian, I don't see why do that. I thought it was silly regardless. There was no character development whatsoever in that movie. Proof of it is that 90% of the audience came out cheering for 10 minutes of screentime that did not feature any of the "main characters". Cool shot of nostalgia, cool space battle, but nothing there. I know some people really enjoyed it, but I don't think it's a remarkable movie. Disney can't do it with the main movies.

@AceofWands

I agree with everything lol. I'd be very confused/annoyed if in Episode 9 the force users end up going on a suicide mission just to kill them all off to get rid of those nasty loose ends, and Finnrose is the last storyline standing. Or similar scenarios.

As for the Zuko comparison - think less of Zuko and Aang, but Zuko and Katara. Zutara wasn't popular for nothing (despite the obvious ending of Aang x Katara) - in the end Zuko 'bonded' with everyone in the group to make up for his past sh%t, but had to work extra hard to convince Katara. After all he had already betrayed her trust directly AND she thought of him as the same people who killed her own mother. After helping Katara face her mother's killer they become close friends, to the point of being standard partners in battle (the fight training against "melon lord" Toph, Zuko vs Azula vs Katara); add scenes like him saving her from being crushed by rocks and staying on top of her for a little too long and there you go, Zutara was born (and judging by a few comments on YouTube there are still a few people who are bitter about it not happening!). Plus, their elements - fire and water, direct opposites, much like dark and light side.

So, think of Zuko's developement if Aang and Mai weren't present - and there you go.

Much reylo. Such authentic trust building. Very romance.

A one night hand stand Skywalker for the next trilogy.

Darth Dingbat wrote:Anakin and Ahsoka... that's a good comparison.

Of course important relationships and interesting dynamics can come in all shapes and sizes, but I've said before that Reylo is a "go big or go home" type of story, and I stand by that. That's the way it started out in TFA: electric, explosive, imbued with heavy symbolism. They had the potential to tell an epic story here, and I just refuse to believe they'd water that down for... what, exactly? RO wasn't safe. It "went big" with that ending. And stopping short of the epic in the ST wouldn't even be "safe", it would just be vaguely disappointing, and quite out of place standing next to the OT and the PT which are both "big" stories.

So what's a "big" connection? Parent and child, siblings, life-long friends who become enemies? Random soulmates united for a purpose?

The Force uniting these two people for a purpose seems likely to me, but what's the most simple and effective way to "go big" with a story of soulmates? Why, romance, of course. Frankly I can't imagine how they'd pull off a convincing soul bond without some romance in a story like this. Something's got to make them cross that bridge and work on that connection. Something's got to make them want to. Something's got to make the audience want it. They don't have 30 TV episodes to show a developing understanding and friendship. So again, what's the most simple and effective way to make the "mysterious connection" compelling and "big"?

But, you know, as someone said before - there was apparently "no romance" in RO, and we got the elevator scene and the heartbreaking embrace on the beach. With this in mind, I await with interest what exactly the non-central "you'll have to see" romance is like in TLJ.

@Darth Dingbat

Personally, I think Adam and Daisy were originally cast to play each other's love interests. The chemistry between them cannot be denied. And this is also how JJ directed TFA - it was all leading to a big romance filled with intense drama, attraction, and a deep soul connection on top of it. I do believe that. JJ had even promised a central romance for the ST in a 2013 interview, which tells me that he had intended it.

What I have gathered though from reading Rian's interviews and tweets is that the dynamic between Kylo and Rey may have been changed to something that isn't romance. It is implied in his VF interview that something got written out. Kylo and Rey will still have a connection, but it could be strictly about their respective roles and importance in the Force - whatever is inside the first Jedi temple for instance may require them to access it together, as champions of the light and dark side. They could form a mutual understanding, but in a platonic sense.

This would be amazing if it featured romance as well. It's possible that Rian was unable to bring these two characters together in such a way and make it believable, or he decided to sanitize their relationship for some reason. As TFA is written, Kylo is totally vulnerable to Rey's light, and she currently stands the best chance of turning him; it's the foundation of a truly epic romance and a powerful message of forgiveness, healing, and hope, if they decide to take it there.

I agree with the posts that say that if Reylo were meant to be non-romantic, the story would have been set up differently--either making them related or having clearly set up other love interests.

I'll go a step further and say that if they weren't related and weren't meant to be seen as a romantic pairing, the characters would have been styled/coded differently.

If Kylo weren't ever meant to be a love interest (or at least a temptation), when he unmasked, we would have seen a "creature in a mask" type instead of a "prince". Or the characters would have a had a more uncomfortable age difference.

Kylo would have been left with the "goofy looking" scar down the middle of his face, rather than his sexy Anakin-esque scar, etc.

@WhatGirl what do you think was removed from the original story premise, based on the VF article?  I haven't read the article in it's entirety, and I'm still debating on whether to pick up the issue at all after what happened with the Kamp.  

Based on the tweets I've seen, I still think we're in for romantic Reylo, but it will be a slow burn.

@ISeeAnIsland I'm completely on the same page with everything you just said. Reylo fits every non-platonic trope imaginable in TFA.

WhatGirl wrote:Personally, I think Adam and Daisy were originally cast to play each other's love interests. The chemistry between them cannot be denied. And this is also how JJ directed TFA - it was all leading to a big romance filled with intense drama, attraction, and a deep soul connection on top of it. I do believe that. JJ had even promised a central romance for the ST in a 2013 interview, which tells me that he had intended it.

This would be amazing if it featured romance as well. It's possible that Rian was unable to bring these two characters together in such a way and make it believable, or he decided to sanitize their relationship for some reason. As TFA is written, Kylo is totally vulnerable to Rey's light, and she currently stands the best chance of turning him; it's the foundation of a truly epic romance and a powerful message of forgiveness, healing, and hope, if they decide to take it there.

Agreed.  I refuse to believe they would never use Daisy and Adam´s chemistry to the fullest. TLJ will plant more seeds and it will  come to fruition in episode IX. They really struck gold with Adam and Daisy . Even when they are not in character, during the few times they have been alongside each other, you can tell. Their chemistry is off the charts.

WhatGirl wrote:

Darth Dingbat wrote:Anakin and Ahsoka... that's a good comparison.

Of course important relationships and interesting dynamics can come in all shapes and sizes, but I've said before that Reylo is a "go big or go home" type of story, and I stand by that. That's the way it started out in TFA: electric, explosive, imbued with heavy symbolism. They had the potential to tell an epic story here, and I just refuse to believe they'd water that down for... what, exactly? RO wasn't safe. It "went big" with that ending. And stopping short of the epic in the ST wouldn't even be "safe", it would just be vaguely disappointing, and quite out of place standing next to the OT and the PT which are both "big" stories.

So what's a "big" connection? Parent and child, siblings, life-long friends who become enemies? Random soulmates united for a purpose?

The Force uniting these two people for a purpose seems likely to me, but what's the most simple and effective way to "go big" with a story of soulmates? Why, romance, of course. Frankly I can't imagine how they'd pull off a convincing soul bond without some romance in a story like this. Something's got to make them cross that bridge and work on that connection. Something's got to make them want to. Something's got to make the audience want it. They don't have 30 TV episodes to show a developing understanding and friendship. So again, what's the most simple and effective way to make the "mysterious connection" compelling and "big"?

But, you know, as someone said before - there was apparently "no romance" in RO, and we got the elevator scene and the heartbreaking embrace on the beach. With this in mind, I await with interest what exactly the non-central "you'll have to see" romance is like in TLJ.

@Darth Dingbat

Personally, I think Adam and Daisy were originally cast to play each other's love interests. The chemistry between them cannot be denied. And this is also how JJ directed TFA - it was all leading to a big romance filled with intense drama, attraction, and a deep soul connection on top of it. I do believe that. JJ had even promised a central romance for the ST in a 2013 interview, which tells me that he had intended it.

What I have gathered though from reading Rian's interviews and tweets is that the dynamic between Kylo and Rey may have been changed to something that isn't romance. It is implied in his VF interview that something got written out. Kylo and Rey will still have a connection, but it could be strictly about their respective roles and importance in the Force - whatever is inside the first Jedi temple for instance may require them to access it together, as champions of the light and dark side. They could form a mutual understanding, but in a platonic sense.

This would be amazing if it featured romance as well. It's possible that Rian was unable to bring these two characters together in such a way and make it believable, or he decided to sanitize their relationship for some reason. As TFA is written, Kylo is totally vulnerable to Rey's light, and she currently stands the best chance of turning him; it's the foundation of a truly epic romance and a powerful message of forgiveness, healing, and hope, if they decide to take it there.

@WhatGirl

I've dialed back my romance expectations for TLJ quite a bit since the VF interview; however, I still think that romantic Reylo is a "go" for the trilogy.

Reading between the lines of Rian's comments, I think you're right that the romance had possibly originally been planned to start in TLJ, but perhaps Rian found out that he had to lay too much groundwork/concentrate too much on Kylo's redemption arc to get it to work in a way that the audiences would be cheering for it. I do expect Rey and Kylo's feelings towards one another to change in TLJ--but we'll see that in forms of lots of UST, glances, and other body language rather than something more overt. (Pre-VF, I was optimistic about a "surprise kiss"...now, not so much.)

Having seen Safety Not Guaranteed, though, I think that creating a full romantic arc for Reylo would be right in Colin Trevorrow's wheelhouse. He was supposedly hired for that movie, and not so much Jurassic World, so I think that bodes well for Reylo.

tukicarreno wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:Personally, I think Adam and Daisy were originally cast to play each other's love interests. The chemistry between them cannot be denied. And this is also how JJ directed TFA - it was all leading to a big romance filled with intense drama, attraction, and a deep soul connection on top of it. I do believe that. JJ had even promised a central romance for the ST in a 2013 interview, which tells me that he had intended it.

This would be amazing if it featured romance as well. It's possible that Rian was unable to bring these two characters together in such a way and make it believable, or he decided to sanitize their relationship for some reason. As TFA is written, Kylo is totally vulnerable to Rey's light, and she currently stands the best chance of turning him; it's the foundation of a truly epic romance and a powerful message of forgiveness, healing, and hope, if they decide to take it there.

Agreed.  I refuse to believe they would never use Daisy and Adam´s chemistry to the fullest. TLJ will plant more seeds and it will  come to fruition in episode IX. They really struck gold with Adam and Daisy´s. Even when they are not in character in the few times they have been alongside each other, you can tell. Their chemistry is off the charts.

@tukicarreno

Exactly!  And let's not forget that they reworked some of John and Daisy's early scenes together to remove tension between the two of them. PlotGate or not, that speaks volumes about whether or not those two characters were ever intended to be a romantic pairing. If there was any question, you think that JJ would have left the tension there and let Rian take things wherever he wanted.

The same goes for Adam and Daisy. Different editing and a few different dialogue choices could have fairly easily removed the villainous crush aspect. They didn't need to add the choker shots in re-shoots, etc. JJ knew where Rian was going with the story when those changes were made.

IoJovi wrote:@WhatGirl what do you think was removed from the original story premise, based on the VF article?  I haven't read the article in it's entirety, and I'm still debating on whether to pick up the issue at all after what happened with the Kamp.  

Based on the tweets I've seen, I still think we're in for romantic Reylo, but it will be a slow burn.

@ISeeAnIsland I'm completely on the same page with everything you just said.  Reylo fits every non-platonic trope imaginable in TFA.

@IoJovi

Oh, I've only read the parts of the interview that have been posted here. I don't have the magazine or the full article.

To my recollection, Rian said something along the lines of wanting to include a central romance in TLJ, but "working forward with these characters, it didn't feel..." something. My guess is he's referring to Kylo and Rey, since they are the only characters who were set up for romance in TFA, but something just wasn't working.

To be honest, I have trouble making sense of where the trilogy is headed if there is no Kylo/Rey romance, lol. I think Kylo will be redeemed and Rey will be the one to turn him... but why should he even listen to her or care? She's not family, they'd never met before... if there isn't romantic attraction then it doesn't make any sense for Rey to succeed when Han failed.

Edit:

ISeeAnIsland wrote:Different editing and a few different dialogue choices could have fairly easily removed the villainous crush aspect. They didn't need to add the choker shots in re-shoots, etc. JJ knew where Rian was going with the story when those changes were made.

@ISeeAnIsland

That's a really good point actually and I hadn't thought of that. They could have toned down/removed the villainous crush signs but they didn't.

WhatGirl wrote:

IoJovi wrote:@WhatGirl what do you think was removed from the original story premise, based on the VF article?  I haven't read the article in it's entirety, and I'm still debating on whether to pick up the issue at all after what happened with the Kamp.  

Based on the tweets I've seen, I still think we're in for romantic Reylo, but it will be a slow burn.

@ISeeAnIsland I'm completely on the same page with everything you just said. Reylo fits every non-platonic trope imaginable in TFA.

@IoJovi

Oh, I've only read the parts of the interview that have been posted here. I don't have the magazine or the full article.

To my recollection, Rian said something along the lines of wanting to include a central romance in TLJ, but "working forward with these characters, it didn't feel..." something. My guess is he's referring to Kylo and Rey, since they are the only characters who were set up for romance in TFA, but something just wasn't working.

To be honest, I have trouble making sense of where the trilogy is headed if there is no Kylo/Rey romance, lol. I think Kylo will be redeemed and Rey will be the one to turn him... but why should he even listen to her or care? She's not family, they'd never met before... if there isn't romantic attraction then it doesn't make any sense for Rey to succeed when Han failed.

@WhatGirl

Oh yes, that part. I remember that well. In a nutshell, I read it as a Han and Leia type of romance, complete with comedy snark they're known for, wouldn't have worked. I get that part, and don't disagree with it. I actually found this very encouraging. Had he been working with say, trying to gather up Rey and Finn into a Han/Leia type romantic scenario, I doubt he would have had a problem (and it also would have been a snooze fest.) I'm not worried.

We know Rey and Kylo have a mountain of sith they have to work through before they can get close to that point, and the fact it's pretty much been confirmed they'll be focusing on Kylo's backstory (possibility seen through Rey's eyes through that "mysterious connection") gives me great hope. The audience has to root for him first and foremost.

I suspect that part of the overall freakage and fallout from the VF article and various Tweets is two-fold, both involving a certain amount of trust and buying-in from fans to commit their interest in the ST:

1. How things got changed on the fly from the original story for the OT which not only screwed up and caused the "oops, almost incest" detail but which got changed on further whim for the PT.

2. Everybody has their read, Reylo, Reywalker, et cetera for the ST based on what was presented in TFA. Being told "I wasn't dictated plot points" doesn't just kill your favorites. It's "oh F**K. You just won my trust over again after a history of not being consistent and then telling me that you have taken steps to never ever do that again."

And in this specific group, having a certain read which doesn't jibe with how the "true" (read 40 years institutional culture and male dominated) fan isn't just feeling like you got conned again, it's led to harassment and in general feeling like the recipients of the type of gatekeeping LF has also made a very large public show of trying to stamp out and welcoming new demographics into the stories they're told.

Combine the two and it's not just the usual rabid fans going hysterical, it's also am I am getting my trust betrayed once again? Also with being able to see that there was potential authorial intent in the first movie to have these two characters set up as LIs, deal with harassment/condescension from other fans, and then "Whoops, JJ wanted it that way but we couldn't figure out how to work so it got tabled to maybe later" feels an awful lot like Gaslighting. You gotta keep all the cards up your sleeve until it's time to play them in the magic trick. But the level of coyness and Mystery Box (which led to the whole assumption that Finn would be FS/a Jedi because of misdirects in the marketing) is seriously wearing down on the amount of trust and enthusiasm some fans have invested in the story.

IoJovi wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:

IoJovi wrote:@WhatGirl what do you think was removed from the original story premise, based on the VF article?  I haven't read the article in it's entirety, and I'm still debating on whether to pick up the issue at all after what happened with the Kamp.  

Based on the tweets I've seen, I still think we're in for romantic Reylo, but it will be a slow burn.

@ISeeAnIsland I'm completely on the same page with everything you just said.  Reylo fits every non-platonic trope imaginable in TFA.

@IoJovi

Oh, I've only read the parts of the interview that have been posted here. I don't have the magazine or the full article.

To my recollection, Rian said something along the lines of wanting to include a central romance in TLJ, but "working forward with these characters, it didn't feel..." something. My guess is he's referring to Kylo and Rey, since they are the only characters who were set up for romance in TFA, but something just wasn't working.

To be honest, I have trouble making sense of where the trilogy is headed if there is no Kylo/Rey romance, lol. I think Kylo will be redeemed and Rey will be the one to turn him... but why should he even listen to her or care? She's not family, they'd never met before... if there isn't romantic attraction then it doesn't make any sense for Rey to succeed when Han failed.

@WhatGirl

Oh yes, that part.  I remember that well.  In a nutshell, I read it as a Han and Leia type of romance, complete with comedy snark they're known for, wouldn't have worked.  I get that part, and don't disagree with it.  I actually found this very encouraging.  Had he been working with say, trying to gather up Rey and Finn into a Han/Leia type romantic scenario, I doubt he would have had a problem (and it also would have been a snooze fest.)  I'm not worried.

We know Rey and Kylo have a mountain of sith they have to work through before they can get close to that point, and the fact it's pretty much been confirmed they'll be focusing on Kylo's backstory (possibility seen through Rey's eyes through that "mysterious connection") gives me great hope.  The audience has to root for him first and foremost.

@IoJovi



I don't think as many people who have been feeling that Reylo was 'debunked' or is less likely now because of #romancegate & #plotgate, would feel that way if they read the entire articles/full quotes. As Pablo said (paraphrasing here) there is a middle ground between there being no plan at all and the directors/writers having the freedom to tell the story the way they want to tell it. The biggest thing is that JJ, RJ, & now CT, are and have been working together and if JJ was setting up a romance in TFA between Rey & Kylo, whether it's ultimately in TLJ in some way or in XI, he wasn't doing so in a vacuum.

Even if Rian doesn't do much with it, if Reylo is the canon direction I hope they heavily hint or make it clear in some respect in TLJ. Just the idea of spending another two years having the same arguments and being called delusional gives me the stirrings of a headache.

For me, it’s kinda hard to see how a completely platonic connection would work. Maybe Rey and Kylo have some sort of strong Force-based bond and that’s what draws them together. But then it’s like, you’re basing a character’s relationship on something that no one in real life can relate to. The Force doesn’t exist in the real world and there’s no real-world equivalent to it either. It just feels awfully disconnected from the real human feelings if that’s where their connection remains for the rest of the story.

I don’t know if I agree that TFA set up the romance, necessarily; I could see it setting up Kylo’s intense interest in Rey that is potentially romantic. But it hardly sets up Rey reciprocating feelings back, and for her to go from hate to love in a space of one film is a tall order. Also, even if JJ was thinking of a future romantic storyline between the two, there’s no telling if he had actual concrete ideas on how and when to bring it about. JJ strikes me as someone who is always about “the moment” rather than a long-term planner.

kroi wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

WhatGirl wrote:

IoJovi wrote:@WhatGirl what do you think was removed from the original story premise, based on the VF article?  I haven't read the article in it's entirety, and I'm still debating on whether to pick up the issue at all after what happened with the Kamp.  

Based on the tweets I've seen, I still think we're in for romantic Reylo, but it will be a slow burn.

@ISeeAnIsland I'm completely on the same page with everything you just said.  Reylo fits every non-platonic trope imaginable in TFA.

@IoJovi

Oh, I've only read the parts of the interview that have been posted here. I don't have the magazine or the full article.

To my recollection, Rian said something along the lines of wanting to include a central romance in TLJ, but "working forward with these characters, it didn't feel..." something. My guess is he's referring to Kylo and Rey, since they are the only characters who were set up for romance in TFA, but something just wasn't working.

To be honest, I have trouble making sense of where the trilogy is headed if there is no Kylo/Rey romance, lol. I think Kylo will be redeemed and Rey will be the one to turn him... but why should he even listen to her or care? She's not family, they'd never met before... if there isn't romantic attraction then it doesn't make any sense for Rey to succeed when Han failed.

@WhatGirl

Oh yes, that part.  I remember that well.  In a nutshell, I read it as a Han and Leia type of romance, complete with comedy snark they're known for, wouldn't have worked.  I get that part, and don't disagree with it.  I actually found this very encouraging.  Had he been working with say, trying to gather up Rey and Finn into a Han/Leia type romantic scenario, I doubt he would have had a problem (and it also would have been a snooze fest.)  I'm not worried.

We know Rey and Kylo have a mountain of sith they have to work through before they can get close to that point, and the fact it's pretty much been confirmed they'll be focusing on Kylo's backstory (possibility seen through Rey's eyes through that "mysterious connection") gives me great hope.  The audience has to root for him first and foremost.

@IoJovi



I don't think as many people who have been feeling that Reylo was 'debunked' or is less likely now because of #romancegate & #plotgate, would feel that way if they read the entire articles/full quotes. As Pablo said (paraphrasing here) there is a middle ground between there being no plan at all and the directors/writers having the freedom to tell the story the way they want to tell it. The biggest thing is that JJ, RJ, & now CT, are and have been working together and if JJ was setting up a romance in TFA between Rey & Kylo, whether it's ultimately in TLJ in some way or in XI, he wasn't doing so in a vacuum.

@kroi

That's the way I see it too. In addition, I've said this before, but I really do think PlotGate is being thrown out there only as a way to preserve the mystery box. They want no single faction thinking they have it all figured out. Which alright fine, but to @snufkin 's point, we're the ones who have been sithed on the majority of the time, and it'd be great to be thrown a bone or two. We have gotten many bones up until now, which is why this whole thing came as a swift kick in the gut.

I'm not really buying the fact each director has THAT much creative control, and I think it's just part of some poorly planned marketing choices.

As for those still doubting romantic Reylo, ask yourself this. What the heck does the ST look like without a single legacy Skywalker child who isn't involved in any romantic story whatsoever? We know Rey isn't one. So where does that leave us?