No central romance my S

Blood Moon wrote:Personally a 4th episode in a saga of trilogies still doesn't make sense to me.

@Blood Moon

Same. And if this needs to be moved to a different thread I hope the mods go ahead. It's just something that's always been at the back of my mind when discussing romantic Reylo. A lot of the anti rhetoric centers on how three movies is simply not enough to develop the complexity needed to turn Reylo into more than just wishful thinking. And they do have a point...sort of. These movies are about a lot of things, space battles and pew pew. Central romances in this saga have always been between characters already on the same side. Kylo and Rey are starting on completely opposite ends. Bridging that gap requires a believable progression. They are diametrically opposed from a political point of view.

And maybe it's the Marketing professional in me that's coming up with all this money talk about expanding the trilogy, but these are different times we live in and Hollywood isn't exactly doing fantastic. Some may argue Disney is doing very well for themselves, and they'd be right, but that's because they are relentless in knowing what sells and pleasing their audience. Tentpole franchises are where it's at these days. Valuable IP that puts butts in seats is super scarce. I realize anthologies are their way to expand the universe (aka make more money) but I'm not sure there's as much of an appetite for these movies as there is for the central saga. Ok, everyone is crazy for the Obi-Wan movie, but I've seen a lot of eye rolling related to the Solo flick.

To the point of a quartet in a saga comprised of trilogies being weird, I do agree, and it's the first real con I come up with. Will I complain if we get a 10th movie? Hell no, I'll be there front and center. I just can't help myself. Any more than that and I might start judging them severely.

Please note I'm not saying romantic Reylo can't be done in just three movies. I think it can. It's just more challenging. And I do still believe TLJ will start laying out the foundation.

DarthRen wrote:@AceofWands

I understand in fairytales 3's etc. If she rejects him or doesn't give an anwser due to circumstances, I don't think Kylo would offer himself for the third time or do you imply that Rey would ask him the next time they see each other?

@DarthRen

If you were to use the 3 times pattern, he would make an offer for a 3rd time and she would accept. (that's where "third time is the charm" comes from).

But I don't think it's the case here, cause the circumstances and the way in which he extends his hand is completely different from the first time. There's also the issue that he extends his hand in a way that means that something prompted him to do so. So I don't think this is the second offer of a set of 3 because it's so different.

But I wouldn't dismiss it being just one step on the way, but not the final step. It's possible.

I mentioned 3 cause some people ask: why would they repeat this for a similar result as in TFA? Well, to establish a pattern. But then, I don't think it's establishing a pattern cause it's so different.

It's just that we can't say that the answer will necessarily be different this time just because it's a repetition. Things can be repeated and are sometimes repeated.

@AceofWands

Well, it would be another plea to join him because the context is the same as in TFA.

Method is certainly very different as we see more genuine, sincere expression with him offering his help, instead of pushing her to the answer.

Which leads me to believe ... this might be after he did something good for her this time around. It's the contrast of between his offers and his character in TFA and TLJ. He did offered his help/teachings to Rey after he already commited a horrible act by killing Han and almost killing her best friend Finn. What if in TLJ it is after he'll save her and Leia to show us this difference in his approach. This way we can sense it [I mean we already can], GA too that Kylo is in a very different point - even by serving Snoke. Rey didn't saw him slicing up Finn and will not see him sparing life of his mother. But she saw the death of Han and will see him turning on Snoke.

Even in P&P Darcy offers himself twice to Lizzy. First he was a jerk towards her [like Kylo was to Rey] and then he did something good for her[ Darcy's letter], she accepted him.

It's possible that I'm wrong. If they leave it up in the air[Kylo's offer], then it has to be from earlier part of the movie for her to consider it and make a decision later on. I don't think Rian would leave it like that towards the end, he said we'll know for whom to root for. But then offer still stands and Rey could approach him[sort of makes sense to me, see changing her approach to him considering his actions like Darcy and Lizzy], because she wouldn't reject him.

All I'm saying there is a pattern in my opinion, but perhaps they leave it up in the air and for Rey to make a choice. If she sees Kylo in a different light, the way Lizzy did with Darcy.

Hopefully my ramblings make sense somehow.

@DarthRen I like your comparison to P and P here.

I don't usually like the comparison cause Austen was more drawn to realism and I don't consider Darcy a Byronic hero.

But it's true that PP has two offers. In the first one, he's sure of himself, and thinks she'll accept him. In the second one he's humble, and not only he did something for her, she gave a sign that she was interested (the talk with his aunt).

So yeah, it ties in with the idea that Kylo extends his hand cause something in her attitude prompts him to, after all, having been humiliated the first time, he wouldn't do it again without a good reason. So in this sense it can relate to PP.

AceofWands wrote:@DarthRen  I like your comparison to P and P here.

I don't usually like the comparison cause Austen was more drawn to realism and I don't consider Darcy a Byronic hero.

But it's true that PP has two offers. In the first one, he's sure of himself, and thinks she'll accept him. In the second one he's humble, and not only he did something for her, she gave a sign that she was interested (the talk with his aunt).

So yeah, it ties in with the idea that Kylo extends his hand cause something in her attitude prompts him to, after all, having been humiliated the first time, he wouldn't do it again without a good reason. So in this sense it can relate to PP.

@AceofWands

I'm guessing there has been other discussion about the 'offer' over the last two years and I've missed it... so glad to see this come up again.
Interesting take on the first offer @AceofWands.
I agree something will give him an indication it is time to ask again.
[edited to add: Just to clarify- I'm taking the P and P comparison and running with it in relation to TLJ here..]

My own view of Kylo's first offer to Rey was that it was impulsive, aggressive, and with no consideration for where Rey was at, what she may be experiencing and how welcoming of the offer she could be.
He wasn't really thinking - IMHO he was just instinctively blurting out this offer...
Kylo tells her she needs a teacher - all while pushing at her with the lightsaber, making her arch her back away and over a cliff - the 'offer' is totally dominant in purpose.
No pressure Rey feel free to say no [sarcasm ]  There didn't seem to be any emphasis on Kylo giving Rey a choice.

Hopefully the second offer will differ greatly- it will be thoughtful and considered, not aggressive - and he will actually ask.
It needs to be Rey's choice, and he needs to give her that choice and accept that she has her own agency- IMHO this is hugely important..[especially when I consider all the shared force bond and raw powah stuff happening concurrently]
Kylo will need to be humble (a great word choice @AceofWands!) and - he will be considering Rey's view on things when he makes his second offer...
To summarise:
First Kylo offer was totally tone deaf, aggressive and not gonna happen..
Second Kylo offer will be attuned to Rey (her thoughts, feelings, needs) - lacking in aggression, open and humble.. and... I hope it's gonna happen!

Remember this interview?? When they were talking romance in TFA


so I'm looking closely...



And I'm excited all over again!

nite0wl29 wrote:Remember this interview?? When they were talking romance in TFA


so I'm looking closely...



And I'm excited all over again!

@nite0wl29

Ha, I remember that interview. I loved it then, and I love it now...

Your gif completes it.

DeeBee wrote:

AceofWands wrote:@DarthRen  I like your comparison to P and P here.

I don't usually like the comparison cause Austen was more drawn to realism and I don't consider Darcy a Byronic hero.

But it's true that PP has two offers. In the first one, he's sure of himself, and thinks she'll accept him. In the second one he's humble, and not only he did something for her, she gave a sign that she was interested (the talk with his aunt).

So yeah, it ties in with the idea that Kylo extends his hand cause something in her attitude prompts him to, after all, having been humiliated the first time, he wouldn't do it again without a good reason. So in this sense it can relate to PP.

@AceofWands

I'm guessing there has been other discussion about the 'offer' over the last two years and I've missed it... so glad to see this come up again.
Interesting take on the first offer @AceofWands.
I agree something will give him an indication it is time to ask again.
[edited to add: Just to clarify- I'm taking the P and P comparison and running with it in relation to TLJ here..]

My own view of Kylo's first offer to Rey was that it was impulsive, aggressive, and with no consideration for where Rey was at, what she may be experiencing and how welcoming of the offer she could be.
He wasn't really thinking - IMHO he was just instinctively blurting out this offer...
Kylo tells her she needs a teacher - all while pushing at her with the lightsaber, making her arch her back away and over a cliff - the 'offer' is totally dominant in purpose.
No pressure Rey feel free to say no [sarcasm ]  There didn't seem to be any emphasis on Kylo giving Rey a choice.

Hopefully the second offer will differ greatly- it will be thoughtful and considered, not aggressive - and he will actually ask.
It needs to be Rey's choice, and he needs to give her that choice and accept that she has her own agency- IMHO this is hugely important..[especially when I consider all the shared force bond and raw powah stuff happening concurrently]
Kylo will need to be humble (a great word choice @AceofWands!) and - he will be considering Rey's view on things when he makes his second offer...
To summarise:
First Kylo offer was totally tone deaf, aggressive and not gonna happen..
Second Kylo offer will be attuned to Rey (her thoughts, feelings, needs) - lacking in aggression, open and humble.. and... I hope it's gonna happen!

@DeeBee

I think the look on his face is very beseeching, very humble in that last trailer shot. He certainly doesn't look aggressive like he did in TFA. I agree he can't come across as violent or demanding because that's just not okay, and Rey won't respond to it.
To me, the trailer makes it seem like they are finding common ground together. She's a bit lost, looking for help, and he's a bit like: Please let me help. I want to help.
Further, I'd contend that recognizing that you need help doesn't make you weak - it actually makes you stronger.

Did you guys ever discuss what Rian said here before?? I just discovered today (original in japanese..?), not sure what to make of it. 

Q: Lastly, in this new work, is there a romantic element? Additionally, what points are the highlights of the movie?
Rian Johnson: It is certainly true that there is romantic drama, but there is nothing the same as the two lovers of Han and Leia, this time [laughs]. This movie, which is after the ending moments of “The Force Awakens,” each character was beginning to walk their own path. So, my duty was to dig down into: where do those paths go for each character?

rey09 wrote:Did you guys ever discuss what Rian said here before?? I just discovered today (original in japanese..?), not sure what to make of it. 

Q: Lastly, in this new work, is there a romantic element? Additionally, what points are the highlights of the movie?
Rian Johnson: It is certainly true that there is romantic drama, but there is nothing the same as the two lovers of Han and Leia, this time [laughs]. This movie, which is after the ending moments of “The Force Awakens,” each character was beginning to walk their own path. So, my duty was to dig down into: where do those paths go for each character?

@rey09
Yeah, we discussed it quite a bit about a week back. Basically he's saying that there is romantic drama (characters having feelings for each other), but no start-to-finish love story like Han and Leia. Pretty straight-forward.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

rey09 wrote:Did you guys ever discuss what Rian said here before?? I just discovered today (original in japanese..?), not sure what to make of it. 

Q: Lastly, in this new work, is there a romantic element? Additionally, what points are the highlights of the movie?
Rian Johnson: It is certainly true that there is romantic drama, but there is nothing the same as the two lovers of Han and Leia, this time [laughs]. This movie, which is after the ending moments of “The Force Awakens,” each character was beginning to walk their own path. So, my duty was to dig down into: where do those paths go for each character?

@rey09
Yeah, we discussed it quite a bit about a week back. Basically he's saying that there is romantic drama (characters having feelings for each other), but no start-to-finish love story like Han and Leia. Pretty straight-forward.

@FrolickingFizzgig Are people thinking Finn and Rose, Reylo, or both?

rey09 wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

rey09 wrote:Did you guys ever discuss what Rian said here before?? I just discovered today (original in japanese..?), not sure what to make of it. 

Q: Lastly, in this new work, is there a romantic element? Additionally, what points are the highlights of the movie?
Rian Johnson: It is certainly true that there is romantic drama, but there is nothing the same as the two lovers of Han and Leia, this time [laughs]. This movie, which is after the ending moments of “The Force Awakens,” each character was beginning to walk their own path. So, my duty was to dig down into: where do those paths go for each character?

@rey09
Yeah, we discussed it quite a bit about a week back. Basically he's saying that there is romantic drama (characters having feelings for each other), but no start-to-finish love story like Han and Leia. Pretty straight-forward.

@FrolickingFizzgig Are people thinking Finn and Rose, Reylo, or both?

@rey09

I think most people have agreed that it refers to Reylo since Rose will be introduced in TLJ and there's no reason to believe her relationship with Finn will have romantic drama in it at least that's the vibe I'm getting from John and Kelly's interviews where they talk about their dynamic while Reylo fits that bill perfectly plus their dynamic and characters have already been established in TFA so it won't come off as forced or rushed.

CienaRee wrote:

rey09 wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

rey09 wrote:Did you guys ever discuss what Rian said here before?? I just discovered today (original in japanese..?), not sure what to make of it. 

Q: Lastly, in this new work, is there a romantic element? Additionally, what points are the highlights of the movie?
Rian Johnson: It is certainly true that there is romantic drama, but there is nothing the same as the two lovers of Han and Leia, this time [laughs]. This movie, which is after the ending moments of “The Force Awakens,” each character was beginning to walk their own path. So, my duty was to dig down into: where do those paths go for each character?

@rey09
Yeah, we discussed it quite a bit about a week back. Basically he's saying that there is romantic drama (characters having feelings for each other), but no start-to-finish love story like Han and Leia. Pretty straight-forward.

@FrolickingFizzgig Are people thinking Finn and Rose, Reylo, or both?

@rey09

I think most people have agreed that it refers to Reylo since Rose will be introduced in TLJ and there's no reason to believe her relationship with Finn will have romantic drama in it at least that's the vibe I'm getting from John and Kelly's interviews where they talk about their dynamic while Reylo fits that bill perfectly plus their dynamic and characters have already been established in TFA so it won't come off as forced or rushed.

@CienaRee okk interesting, guess rian learned from his previous semantics mishap lol

I just freakin love the title of this thread.

Considering the elements of romantic drama, I don't see those elements fitting into FinnRose. Forbidden love, disapproval of family, one's own psychological restraints...those all scream Reylo! I don't see anything "forbidden" or really dramatic about FinnRose because they are fighting for the same side. Now falling in love with your "enemy"?

nite0wl29 wrote:Considering the elements of romantic drama, I don't see those elements fitting into FinnRose. Forbidden love, disapproval of family, one's own psychological restraints...those all scream Reylo! I don't see anything "forbidden" or really dramatic about FinnRose because they are fighting for the same side. Now falling in love with your "enemy"?

@nite0wl29 Did Rian ever explain what he meant by romantic drama though? I feel that it could be anything. I saw a picture of Finn and Rose once in an altercation, gave me some Han Leia vibes.

rey09 wrote:

nite0wl29 wrote:Considering the elements of romantic drama, I don't see those elements fitting into FinnRose. Forbidden love, disapproval of family, one's own psychological restraints...those all scream Reylo! I don't see anything "forbidden" or really dramatic about FinnRose because they are fighting for the same side. Now falling in love with your "enemy"?

@nite0wl29 Did Rian ever explain what he meant by romantic drama though? I feel that it could be anything. I saw a picture of Finn and Rose once in an altercation, gave me some Han Leia vibes.

@rey09

No but John just gave this answer about which character Finn should be with, Rey or Poe (I'm throwing Rose into the category also)

According to wikipedia, an extract from the book Film Genre 2000: New Critical Essays describes romantic drama:

Romantic drama usually revolves around an obstacle which prevents deep and true romantic love between two people. Music is often employed to indicate the emotional mood, creating an atmosphere of greater insulation for the couple. The conclusion of a romantic drama typically does not indicate whether a final romantic union between the two main characters will occur. Some examples of romantic drama films are The Bridges of Madison County, The English Patient, Falling in Love, Casablanca, Forrest Gump, Never Say Good Bye, Memoirs of a Geisha, Last Tango in Paris, Water for Elephants, 5 Centimeters per Second, Love Story, and The Fault in Our Stars.

While any romantic couple with a jedi as one of the pair does by default indicate obstacles lie ahead, this description definitely has reylo written all over it.

nite0wl29 wrote:Considering the elements of romantic drama, I don't see those elements fitting into FinnRose. Forbidden love, disapproval of family, one's own psychological restraints...those all scream Reylo! I don't see anything "forbidden" or really dramatic about FinnRose because they are fighting for the same side. Now falling in love with your "enemy"?

@nite0wl29

I agree - Reylo has the real soap dramatic potential.

nite0wl29 wrote:

rey09 wrote:

nite0wl29 wrote:Considering the elements of romantic drama, I don't see those elements fitting into FinnRose. Forbidden love, disapproval of family, one's own psychological restraints...those all scream Reylo! I don't see anything "forbidden" or really dramatic about FinnRose because they are fighting for the same side. Now falling in love with your "enemy"?

@nite0wl29 Did Rian ever explain what he meant by romantic drama though? I feel that it could be anything. I saw a picture of Finn and Rose once in an altercation, gave me some Han Leia vibes.

@rey09

No but John just gave this answer about which character Finn should be with, Rey or Poe (I'm throwing Rose into the category also)

@nite0wl29
I don't think this means anything for Rey, Poe or Rose in the actual movie. John is talking about his character right after TFA. We don't know how Finn is going to develop alongside Rose.

We already know there won't be any friends/strangers-to-couple romance in this movie. I'm absolutely expecting feelings to develop between them, though. If Reylo is an actual thing I totally understand why Rian felt the need to pair Finn off with another female character. That doesn't mean outright romance has to occur between either, though. Feelings =/= romance.

panki wrote:According to wikipedia, an extract from the book Film Genre 2000: New Critical Essays describes romantic drama:

Romantic drama usually revolves around an obstacle which prevents deep and true romantic love between two people. Music is often employed to indicate the emotional mood, creating an atmosphere of greater insulation for the couple. The conclusion of a romantic drama typically does not indicate whether a final romantic union between the two main characters will occur. Some examples of romantic drama films are The Bridges of Madison County, The English Patient, Falling in Love, Casablanca, Forrest Gump, Never Say Good Bye, Memoirs of a Geisha, Last Tango in Paris, Water for Elephants, 5 Centimeters per Second, Love Story, and The Fault in Our Stars.

While any romantic couple with a jedi as one of the pair does by default indicate obstacles lie ahead, this description definitely has reylo written all over it.

@panki

I can totally see Reylo dynamics in Forest Gump and Water for Elements. In FG you have the troubled girl who's been through drugs, sexual abuse (prostitution) and always keeps herself distant from Forest until she's basically tired of running from her problems. W4E, I can't remember the character names for the life of me, but you have the wife of a psychotic ring master and a medic who know they shouldn't be together because of given circumstances, but really just can't help themselves.
@FrolickingFizzGig good point there!

When Rian said "no central romance", I thought the best we could hope for was that he would lay the framework for Reylo in Episode IX, without realizing that he was doing so. I.e., have Rey be unrelated and show the seeds of Kylo's redemption. It appears, though, that we're getting something much better than that. The definition of romantic drama sounds very much like Reylo to me. Especially with an entire movie to go in the trilogy.

I will never, ever, get over this ...



YO REYLOS! GET YO FANTASIES OUT OF MY STAR WARS!!!!

Looking at the marketing over the last few months and Rian using the term "romantic drama" now. I'm just rolling on the floor. I'd love to do a community art project around this quote. Like tons of postcards addressed to David Kamp with images and quotes from the marketing and eventually screen shoots from TLJ. Honestly, I'd love to organize a Reylo art gallery event. So much great work and insightful meta.

Tex wrote:I will never, ever, get over this ...



YO REYLOS! GET YO FANTASIES OUT OF MY STAR WARS!!!!

Looking at the marketing over the last few months and Rian using the term "romantic drama" now. I'm just rolling on the floor. I'd love to do a community art project around this quote. Like tons of postcards addressed to David Kamp with images and quotes from the marketing and eventually screen shoots from TLJ. Honestly, I'd love to organize a Reylo art gallery event. So much great work and insightful meta.

@Tex
Just going to post Rian's actual quote here again. This "no central romance" word spin gets tossed around by Reylos and antis.