Discussion: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in TLJ

ISeeAnIsland wrote:@snufkin

If not that, maybe JJ will finally let Daisy sing in IX, since he wouldn't let her do so in TFA. (Apparently, she proposed to JJ that Rey sing to herself while scavenging, but JJ vetoed the idea.)

@ISeeAnIsland

Bad decision, IMO.

Well, i shouldn't say that. It's hard to impossible to include a singing number by someone who has never starred in a movie. But I would have thought hard about giving her one in TLJ.

I don't think Rian Johnson ruined the character, or anything, but I do think he emphasized the "dark" elements of Kylo in a way that made him less wild, less spontaneous, and more of a conventional villain. There's a certain childlike light streak in Kylo (the look of awe at Rey when the saber goes to her) that's missing, and that I hope JJ restores.

The main issue is people are not approaching this redemption intellectually (shocker). Rian blatantly says that Kylo and Rey represent our own dual natures. People getting caught up on the killing etc are missing the point that he is a damn metaphor for EVERYONE'S dark side. I loved when he said on twitter that people can't relate to Luke totally either- it's not like we are all freedom fighters off saving the galaxy. We don't *literally* connect with Luke, but emotionally. So this whole kylo's a murderer thing is getting tiresome.

"Rey and Kylo are like two endings of the same stream… How would you want their relationship to be?”







In which Adam subtly reveals that he has a sentimental and obvious idea in mind for Rey and Kylo's future, but isn't the type to impose anything.

@panki There were definitely some over the top settings and costume influences from classic musicals for some of the sequences. Of course, the best part about TLJ is that it subverts the whole "you need a teacher" line because their relationship is something personal/emotional between equals 'you're not alone" "neither are you." And all the Force mythology/history which got teased at was about simply delving deeper into the themes of how the world of the PT shouldn't have been recreated because of its errors, via Luke's experiences and how it impacted Ben.

Kylo Men wrote:I don't think Rian Johnson ruined the character, or anything, but I do think he emphasized the "dark" elements of Kylo in a way that made him less wild, less spontaneous, and more of a conventional villain.  There's a certain childlike light streak in Kylo (the look of awe at Rey when the saber goes to her) that's missing, and that I hope JJ restores.

@Kylo Men
I totally disagree, at least as far as Kylo being a more typical villain goes. I find Kylo to be a lot more human and relatable in this film. That kind of goes with the genre territory. The magnetic "childishness" had to be downplayed because this is not a static character study, it's a coming-of-age story. He still slides across the floor, looks embarrassed when his Force powers don't work through the Force void, stares at Rey like the light of salvation and screams like a temper-tantruming kid, but you have to remember that Kylo is supposed to be actively growing up as part of the natural story progression. Obviously he isn't there yet because the full arc will probably involve freeing himself from the dark side (rebellious adolescence) and embracing adulthood.

I wouldn't want or expect JJ to bring back TFA Kylo. He has to evolve.

@panki There were definitely some over the top settings and costume influences from classic musicals for some of the sequences. Of course, the best part about TLJ is that it subverts the whole "you need a teacher" line because their relationship is something personal/emotional between equals 'you're not alone" "neither are you." And all the Force mythology/history which got teased at was about simply delving deeper into the themes of how the world of the PT shouldn't have been recreated because of its errors, via Luke's experiences and how it impacted Ben.

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:"Rey and Kylo are like two endings of the same stream… How would you want their relationship to be?”







In which Adam subtly reveals that he has a sentimental and obvious idea in mind for Rey and Kylo's future, but isn't the type to impose anything.

@FrolickingFizzgig

ADAM SHIPS IT!!!!

IoJovi wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:"Rey and Kylo are like two endings of the same stream… How would you want their relationship to be?”







In which Adam subtly reveals that he has a sentimental and obvious idea in mind for Rey and Kylo's future, but isn't the type to impose anything.

@FrolickingFizzgig

ADAM SHIPS IT!!!!  

@IoJovi Adam really identifies with Kylo so it makes even more sense- he's had issues with his family but he's found his belonging in his wife. It's very very similar to Kylo wanting to be with Rey so can't help but think he is very much invested in Kylo finding hope for the future. And seeing as how he signed up after a lot of thinking, it seems to show he chose to be part of this story because it resonates with him.

rey09 wrote:@IoJovi Adam really identifies with Kylo so it makes even more sense- he's had issues with his family but he's found his belonging in his wife. It's very very similar to Kylo wanting to be with Rey so can't help but think he is very much invested in Kylo finding hope for the future. And seeing as how he signed up after a lot of thinking, it seems to show he chose to be part of this story because it resonates with him.

@rey09

You mean Adam sees his wife in Rey? *trying not to cry*

So maybe that was what he was talking abt in that Japanese interview when he said he is deeply observing/analyzing Rey's character too.

snufkin wrote:@panki There were definitely some over the top settings and costume influences from classic musicals for some of the sequences. Of course, the best part about TLJ is that it subverts the whole "you need a teacher" line because their relationship is something personal/emotional between equals 'you're not alone" "neither are you." And all the Force mythology/history which got teased at was about simply delving deeper into the themes of how the world of the PT shouldn't have been recreated because of its errors, via Luke's experiences and how it impacted Ben.

@snufkin

Is the "I love you" "I know" of TLJ.

IoJovi wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:"Rey and Kylo are like two endings of the same stream… How would you want their relationship to be?”







In which Adam subtly reveals that he has a sentimental and obvious idea in mind for Rey and Kylo's future, but isn't the type to impose anything.

@FrolickingFizzgig

ADAM SHIPS IT!!!!  

@IoJovi

Yes, looks like Adam thinks Kylo loves Rey! He seems to get really immersed in the roles he plays, so he'd know Kylo's internal thoughts, like when he asked Rian, "have I ever kissed a girl before." I think he's also alluding to the fact Reylo was left more nuanced and wasn't overt (there was no kiss or verbal declaration of feelings).

Rian trusted the audience with this kind of nuance to allow them to deduce what's going on without spelling it out for them. I think the fact most movies today generally lack this kind of nuance and have a tendency to tell us how characters feel is why some people either overlooked it or didn't get it.

As much as I love the nuance and some ambiguity because it reflects how unexpected these feelings are for Rey and Kylo and how they're still coming to terms with them, I hope the next movie leaves no doubt about how they feel about each other.


@rey09 - what an interesting analogy between Adam and Kylo. Yes, he and his wife seem to have a really solid and nurturing relationship and he's said in the past she's taught him so much. It does appear he had a rocky relationship with his family growing up. From what I remember reading, his parents were divorced and he was kicked out of his house by his stepfather and mother after he finished high school, but he was still only seventeen years old.  He doesn't talk much about it, but it sounded like there were issues there for sure.

I just saw the movie again and I was trying to watch for all the instances where the camera zooms in on Kylo's clenching fist to see if there's a pattern there, but I got distracted. 

But this time around I was really watching Kylo's reactions while facing off against Luke, and somehow I didn't notice before just how strongly he reacts to thinking he'd just obliterated Luke with all of those guns. He nearly falls back in that chair and is shuddering and gasping like he'd finally exorcised some sort of demon. That pain and anger, and probably fear too, toward Luke runs deep.

@kessel yea =/ he's had a tough family life. His stepfather (and I think maybe even his father?) were pastors and Adam is def. not religious so with that and his rebellious nature I can't imagine how it must have been for him. Yeah in interviews he always says he'd rather not talk about it, saying they have different views. I do remember coming across an article where his town interviewed his mom and stepdad. They were obviously not ok with his life choices but they seemed to be happy for him? 

@ZioRen I'm obsessed with his fist clenching moments, it's super sexy! I think he does it once after the rain scene, when he lets the water drip and then clenches and then when the dice disappear. It's such a simple act but it shows so much- how he's desperate to hold on to something or someone.

I went to this TLJ art exhibition today and seeing a life sized figure of Kylo, a cute little Japanese boy said "Mommy, it's Kylo Ren!" looking so happy. I feel so conflicted about little boys seeing Kylo Ren as the hero they idolize, just as Luke Skywalker for the 1980s kids. I wonder how does these little kids sees Kylo as a character? The cool bad guy or they think he's a good guy now after TLJ? Since the Jedi is a girl, I guess little boys only have Kylo Ren to look up to, the only boy in the saga using a lightsaber? I'm just saying... to save these children's dreams... I think it's imperative for JJ to write a huge, classic redemption arc for Kylo with a happy ending. That's all

I´m not sure, if it was alredy mentioned. You all write too much and too fast.
But does Ben even know that the blue lightsaber is broken? He obviously doesn´t realize his uncle is a projection and not real. Maybe he thinks after the incidents on the star destroyer Rey is back to his uncle and gave him the saber? In his eyes probably another betrayal and more fuel for his rage.

And because I´m totally into analyzing the bunch of metaphors in this movie after my second view (holidays, too much time for overanalyzing everything): for me the lightsaber is a metaphor for his relatationship to Rey: it´s split after Supremacy, but the core = the cristall is still intact, nothing beyond repair and rey will fix it. I want to believe.

rey09 wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:"Rey and Kylo are like two endings of the same stream… How would you want their relationship to be?”







In which Adam subtly reveals that he has a sentimental and obvious idea in mind for Rey and Kylo's future, but isn't the type to impose anything.

@FrolickingFizzgig

ADAM SHIPS IT!!!!  

@IoJovi Adam really identifies with Kylo so it makes even more sense- he's had issues with his family but he's found his belonging in his wife. It's very very similar to Kylo wanting to be with Rey so can't help but think he is very much invested in Kylo finding hope for the future. And seeing as how he signed up after a lot of thinking, it seems to show he chose to be part of this story because it resonates with him.

@rey09

If we were to take this analogy any further...

Adam and Joanne co-founded AITAF. An organization that can be considered unique and new, bridging the 2 main influences of Adam's life; the military and theatre.

Kylo asks Rey to helo him create a new order hinting towards balance.

Maybe just reaching, but I totally get it if Adam does see his wife in Rey.

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

rey09 wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:"Rey and Kylo are like two endings of the same stream… How would you want their relationship to be?”







In which Adam subtly reveals that he has a sentimental and obvious idea in mind for Rey and Kylo's future, but isn't the type to impose anything.

@FrolickingFizzgig

ADAM SHIPS IT!!!!  

@IoJovi Adam really identifies with Kylo so it makes even more sense- he's had issues with his family but he's found his belonging in his wife. It's very very similar to Kylo wanting to be with Rey so can't help but think he is very much invested in Kylo finding hope for the future. And seeing as how he signed up after a lot of thinking, it seems to show he chose to be part of this story because it resonates with him.

@rey09

If we were to take this analogy any further...

Adam and Joanne co-founded AITAF. An organization that can be considered unique and new, bridging the 2 main influences of Adam's life; the military and theatre.

Kylo asks Rey to helo him create a new order hinting towards balance.

Maybe just reaching, but I totally get it if Adam does see his wife in Rey.

@Rei of Sunshine woww on point!! I was actually watching their short film called the basement, wanted to know what she was like lol. She has this soft look in her eyes and her voice is so gentle, she really complements him!

Rei of Sunshine wrote:

rey09 wrote:

IoJovi wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:"Rey and Kylo are like two endings of the same stream… How would you want their relationship to be?”







In which Adam subtly reveals that he has a sentimental and obvious idea in mind for Rey and Kylo's future, but isn't the type to impose anything.

@FrolickingFizzgig

ADAM SHIPS IT!!!!  

@IoJovi Adam really identifies with Kylo so it makes even more sense- he's had issues with his family but he's found his belonging in his wife. It's very very similar to Kylo wanting to be with Rey so can't help but think he is very much invested in Kylo finding hope for the future. And seeing as how he signed up after a lot of thinking, it seems to show he chose to be part of this story because it resonates with him.

@rey09

If we were to take this analogy any further...

Adam and Joanne co-founded AITAF. An organization that can be considered unique and new, bridging the 2 main influences of Adam's life; the military and theatre.

Kylo asks Rey to helo him create a new order hinting towards balance.

Maybe just reaching, but I totally get it if Adam does see his wife in Rey.

@Rei of Sunshine

I think he relates to Kylo and the things that affects him so much in his personal life beyond troubled relationship with his family. His wife Joanne gave his life a whole new dimension, probably would tell you that made him a better man[a lot of men would agree including me, my girlfriend gave my life a whole new dimension]. Same way Kylo sees Rey.

Speaking of Arts in the Armed Forces Adam and his wife Joanne co-found and run. Really beautiful video showcasing what is this all about. Worth watching.

Of course we'll never know for sure, but the idea that Rey might remind Adam of Joanne makes me smile. I'm sure it makes the story more poignant for him and the scenes easier to get into if so! That sounds like the ultimate ideal situation for an actor playing a romance.

shii405 wrote:I went to this TLJ art exhibition today and seeing a life sized figure of Kylo, a cute little Japanese boy said "Mommy, it's Kylo Ren!" looking so happy. I feel so conflicted about little boys seeing Kylo Ren as the hero they idolize, just as Luke Skywalker for the 1980s kids. I wonder how does these little kids sees Kylo as a character? The cool bad guy or they think he's a good guy now after TLJ? Since the Jedi is a girl, I guess little boys only have Kylo Ren to look up to, the only boy in the saga using a lightsaber? I'm just saying... to save these children's dreams... I think it's imperative for JJ to write a huge, classic redemption arc for Kylo with a happy ending. That's all

@shii405

I’m sorry, I can’t speak for all little boys, but mine is 5 and pretty emotionally sensitive. Kylo is his favorite and ever since we started watching TFA at home, he’s always wanted Kylo to become happy. He knows he’s the villain at the moment and thinks that’s cool and dangerous, but he sees the potential for good and asks me about his motives sometimes. I don’t promise him anything story wise, but he always tries to assume the best of Kylo.
When he saw the TLJ trailer he said, “Kylo Ren loves Rey! What’s going to happen now???” I put our Lego Kylo and Rey in our entryway this morning, and when I passed by a half hour later, they were kissing. I thought my husband was playing a joke on me but he said the kid did it. When I asked him why he said “Because I want them on the same side.”
I hope JJ writes an epic redemption for him too because I think little kids would appreciate it.

A before/after of Kylo's lightsaber

@Armadeus I love the visual metaphor going on here. Ben Solo is light, Kylo Ren is dark. The exhaust vents are added to let off excess steam. The wire that sticks out like a sore thumb reminds me of the compressor on the Falcon in TFA - it's something that shouldn't be there.

MeadowofAshes wrote:@Armadeus I love the visual metaphor going on here. Ben Solo is light, Kylo Ren is dark. The exhaust vents are added to let off excess steam. The wire that sticks out like a sore thumb reminds me of the compressor on the Falcon in TFA - it's something that shouldn't be there.

@MeadowofAshes

The metaphor I’m seeing here is he literally trying way too hard. Being a bad*** villain isn’t something he excels at.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:

shii405 wrote:I went to this TLJ art exhibition today and seeing a life sized figure of Kylo, a cute little Japanese boy said "Mommy, it's Kylo Ren!" looking so happy. I feel so conflicted about little boys seeing Kylo Ren as the hero they idolize, just as Luke Skywalker for the 1980s kids. I wonder how does these little kids sees Kylo as a character? The cool bad guy or they think he's a good guy now after TLJ? Since the Jedi is a girl, I guess little boys only have Kylo Ren to look up to, the only boy in the saga using a lightsaber? I'm just saying... to save these children's dreams... I think it's imperative for JJ to write a huge, classic redemption arc for Kylo with a happy ending. That's all

@shii405

I’m sorry, I can’t speak for all little boys, but mine is 5 and pretty emotionally sensitive. Kylo is his favorite and ever since we started watching TFA at home, he’s always wanted Kylo to become happy. He knows he’s the villain at the moment and thinks that’s cool and dangerous, but he sees the potential for good and asks me about his motives sometimes. I don’t promise him anything story wise, but he always tries to assume the best of Kylo.
When he saw the TLJ trailer he said, “Kylo Ren loves Rey! What’s going to happen now???” I put our Lego Kylo and Rey in our entryway this morning, and when I passed by a half hour later, they were kissing. I thought my husband was playing a joke on me but he said the kid did it. When I asked him why he said “Because I want them on the same side.”
I hope JJ writes an epic redemption for him too because I think little kids would appreciate it.

@Cowgirlsamurai

Aww... how cute, like mother like son! Thanks for sharing your baby boy's view!

This might be just how the kids in general see the story and with that Kylo-Rey ala Ken-Barbie dolls style as a package, I think that is also what Disney is leading the kids to believe, lol