The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The trailer gave us a lot to look forward to for Rey, way more than I think some were anticipating. The big reveal for me was the existence of a shared raw power between Rey and Kylo, but there were other things that have the potential to spice up Rey's character as well. That was just the most important one for me because it introduces the idea that Luke will not only be reluctant to train Rey, he'll be scared of her capacity for growth in the Force out of concern of repeating past mistakes. Add to that MSW's whispers about Rey using the Force to pull pillars when she's just trying to pull a lightsaber, cracking the earth beneath her when she's trying to meditate and possibly destroying a building during a conversation and we have the beginnings of a volatile and confused heroine who ends up being scared of herself.

Rey is going to Luke with the expressed goal of accompanying him back to the Resistance, but she'll also ask him for help in exploring her powers. She sees him as an elder and a mentor in the Force, but her hopes are going to be brutally dashed when he lets on exactly what she doesn't want to hear, that she reminds him of Kylo. That's a low blow for Rey. Imagine being likened to someone you called a monster for murdering their father right in front of her, only to be told probably a week later "Sorry, can't train you, you're too much like him." Yikes. Rey will be overwhelmingly disappointed in Luke, and probably pretty angry at him. She might spend a little time in #Denialville.

I think it's safe to say she'll have visions of what happened at Luke's temple (and probably of Kylo in general) that will prompt her to see things a little differently. Depending on what the Force shows her, she might not fully align with Luke's perspective on what Kylo did, and as a result she'll develop further doubts in his mentorship. I do think he'll end up training her anyway in order to prepare her to face Kylo, providing a potential slot for MSW's rumours about Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo but Rey feeling reluctant to go through with it as a result of what she's learned about Ben while on the island.

IMO, Rey's big arc in this film is going to revolve around making a final decision to do something nobody else would do in taking Kylo's hand the second time it's offered. Her dynamic with Luke will fuel her insecurities, though I do believe he'll redeem himself in her eyes before the film's conclusion. When she ultimately decides to accept Kylo's help she'll most likely have the underlying sentiment of using him for whatever knowledge he could provide her about the Force, her powers and possibly even her past by searching through her repressed memories via their connection. I feel this would be an appropriate twist because the current perception aligns more with Kylo manipulating Rey's feelings rather than the other way around.

PalmettoBlue wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The trailer gave us a lot to look forward to for Rey, way more than I think some were anticipating. The big reveal for me was the existence of a shared raw power between Rey and Kylo, but there were other things that have the potential to spice up Rey's character as well. That was just the most important one for me because it introduces the idea that Luke will not only be reluctant to train Rey, he'll be scared of her capacity for growth in the Force out of concern of repeating past mistakes. Add to that MSW's whispers about Rey using the Force to pull pillars when she's just trying to pull a lightsaber, cracking the earth beneath her when she's trying to meditate and possibly destroying a building during a conversation and we have the beginnings of a volatile and confused heroine who ends up being scared of herself.

Rey is going to Luke with the expressed goal of accompanying him back to the Resistance, but she'll also ask him for help in exploring her powers. She sees him as an elder and a mentor in the Force, but her hopes are going to be brutally dashed when he lets on exactly what she doesn't want to hear, that she reminds him of Kylo. That's a low blow for Rey. Imagine being likened to someone you called a monster for murdering their father right in front of her, only to be told probably a week later "Sorry, can't train you, you're too much like him." Yikes. Rey will be overwhelmingly disappointed in Luke, and probably pretty angry at him. She might spend a little time in #Denialville.

I think it's safe to say she'll have visions of what happened at Luke's temple (and probably of Kylo in general) that will prompt her to see things a little differently. Depending on what the Force shows her, she might not fully align with Luke's perspective on what Kylo did, and as a result she'll develop further doubts in his mentorship. I do think he'll end up training her anyway in order to prepare her to face Kylo, providing a potential slot for MSW's rumours about Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo but Rey feeling reluctant to go through with it as a result of what she's learned about Ben while on the island.

IMO, Rey's big arc in this film is going to revolve around making a final decision to do something nobody else would do in taking Kylo's hand the second time it's offered. Her dynamic with Luke will fuel her insecurities, though I do believe he'll redeem himself in her eyes before the film's conclusion. When she ultimately decides to accept Kylo's help she'll most likely have the underlying sentiment of using him for whatever knowledge he could provide her about the Force, her powers and possibly even her past by searching through her repressed memories via their connection. I feel this would be an appropriate twist because the current perception aligns more with Kylo manipulating Rey's feelings rather than the other way around.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree, Fizz. But, again with the shipper glasses, I hope Rey and Kylo attain a level of shared emotion, not manipulating the other. I admit, with no shame, that I want Ben Solo back, redeemed. And I’d worry that if he feels used or manipulated, then we’d see a damaging regression of that arc. I’ve thought for some time that his honesty with her is a key plot point, and more importantly, him being able to trust what he gets from her is a fulcrum for his character. After all, he now knows that he cannot trust anyone (except Rey) because they’ve all lied to him and or used him.

Rey, on the other hand, also needs to find that family, that belonging that she seeks. And I think he will be the one person with whom she can be completely herself. Clearly, she controls whatever anger or frustration she has with Finn in TFA and completely forgives him. Her sheer power terrifies the man who she thinks might be best positioned to help her and the Resistance. Who does she have left? Don’t say Chewie. He likes her, but his best friend will always be Han Solo. The one person she will completely reveal her anger, heartbreak, and frustration to is clearly Kylo/Ben. And he will understand.

The raw power plot point - it’s pretty genius, isn’t it?

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

PalmettoBlue wrote:

FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The trailer gave us a lot to look forward to for Rey, way more than I think some were anticipating. The big reveal for me was the existence of a shared raw power between Rey and Kylo, but there were other things that have the potential to spice up Rey's character as well. That was just the most important one for me because it introduces the idea that Luke will not only be reluctant to train Rey, he'll be scared of her capacity for growth in the Force out of concern of repeating past mistakes. Add to that MSW's whispers about Rey using the Force to pull pillars when she's just trying to pull a lightsaber, cracking the earth beneath her when she's trying to meditate and possibly destroying a building during a conversation and we have the beginnings of a volatile and confused heroine who ends up being scared of herself.

Rey is going to Luke with the expressed goal of accompanying him back to the Resistance, but she'll also ask him for help in exploring her powers. She sees him as an elder and a mentor in the Force, but her hopes are going to be brutally dashed when he lets on exactly what she doesn't want to hear, that she reminds him of Kylo. That's a low blow for Rey. Imagine being likened to someone you called a monster for murdering their father right in front of her, only to be told probably a week later "Sorry, can't train you, you're too much like him." Yikes. Rey will be overwhelmingly disappointed in Luke, and probably pretty angry at him. She might spend a little time in #Denialville.

I think it's safe to say she'll have visions of what happened at Luke's temple (and probably of Kylo in general) that will prompt her to see things a little differently. Depending on what the Force shows her, she might not fully align with Luke's perspective on what Kylo did, and as a result she'll develop further doubts in his mentorship. I do think he'll end up training her anyway in order to prepare her to face Kylo, providing a potential slot for MSW's rumours about Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo but Rey feeling reluctant to go through with it as a result of what she's learned about Ben while on the island.

IMO, Rey's big arc in this film is going to revolve around making a final decision to do something nobody else would do in taking Kylo's hand the second time it's offered. Her dynamic with Luke will fuel her insecurities, though I do believe he'll redeem himself in her eyes before the film's conclusion. When she ultimately decides to accept Kylo's help she'll most likely have the underlying sentiment of using him for whatever knowledge he could provide her about the Force, her powers and possibly even her past by searching through her repressed memories via their connection. I feel this would be an appropriate twist because the current perception aligns more with Kylo manipulating Rey's feelings rather than the other way around.

@FrolickingFizzgig

I agree, Fizz. But, again with the shipper glasses, I hope Rey and Kylo attain a level of shared emotion, not manipulating the other. I admit, with no shame, that I want Ben Solo back, redeemed. And I’d worry that if he feels used or manipulated, then we’d see a damaging regression of that arc. I’ve thought for some time that his honesty with her is a key plot point, and more importantly, him being able to trust what he gets from her is a fulcrum for his character. After all, he now knows that he cannot trust anyone (except Rey) because they’ve all lied to him and or used him.

Rey, on the other hand, also needs to find that family, that belonging that she seeks. And I think he will be the one person with whom she can be completely herself. Clearly, she controls whatever anger or frustration she has with Finn in TFA and completely forgives him. Her sheer power terrifies the man who she thinks might be best positioned to help her and the Resistance. Who does she have left? Don’t say Chewie. He likes her, but his best friend will always be Han Solo. The one person she will completely reveal her anger, heartbreak, and frustration to is clearly Kylo/Ben. And he will understand.

The raw power plot point - it’s pretty genius, isn’t it?

@PalmettoBlue
I'm sorry, I don't mean to say that Rey will literally manipulate him in the sense that Palpatine manipulated Anakin. I don't think that's going to happen. I absolutely feel that they will be aware of an emotional and Force-related connection present in their relationship that will spur Rey to ultimately make that choice, but this is only Act II of a III act story and we can't have it end with every emotional plot-point tied up neatly with a bow. I would be surprised if Rey was 110% trusting of Kylo at the end of TLJ, whether she takes his hand or not (and imo, she will take it), but there will probably still be serious doubts between them. Kylo has a lot to make up for, more than he could do in the span of one film, and Rey feeling that she is in control while simultaneously going against her better judgment and feeling a strange affection for him could easily be a plot-point well into IX. Plus, it makes for an extension of an already interesting story and could help the audience further relate to Rey's decision.

snufkin wrote:On the topic of lineage, this site just started following me on social media and I just read this article, which is about The Heroine's Journey, a topic that's been discussed here and which I know @nonesuch and @BastilaBey have discussed on their podcast. Now while it's most definitely not just a gender-flipped version of the Hero's Journey (and Campbell supposedly has some bullshit quote statement about how it wasn't as important to women, others have researched/written extensively about it. Especially around recent movies like Wonder Woman. What I thought was interesting reading this one publication's take on that movie and the archetypes it hits on is how much it's not Rey's story. Which is where we get into the lineage question. Because the filmmakers could have so easily made something where she was Rey Skywalker or Rey Solo and her struggles/adventures coming into her own. It sounds like that's the original idea GL envisioned when he planned the last trio of movies, that it'd be about a young woman who'd be part of that family (maybe a daughter or his original idea for Luke's twin sister which got conflated with Leia when he wanted to wrap up the OT and move on w/his life). Like we've said here, there is no secret family connection for Rey because they could have done that with her and they chose not to. What is interesting is looking at some of the points hit on for Wonder Woman, it starts to sound a little close to one of the other characters in the ST, Leia's son. Not saying that they intentionally set up a male character who's the antagonist and villain to have the Heroine's Journey, but it's an interesting possibility to think over with what they've hinted at with his character. Possibly one of the ways they've played with traditional gender roles for these characters, including allowing him to be vulnerable and open and how some of the fan hate is for violating certain gender expectations

Why Screenwriters Should Embrace The Heroine’s Journey

What most people overlook is that Campbell’s monomyth best emphasizes characteristics and values found strictly in male characters. In fact, in Campbell’s framework for The Hero’s Journey, he details only two roles for women. The first — “The Meeting with the Goddess” — references the woman as the love interest or as some sort of maternal divinity role. The second —  “Woman as Temptress” — references the woman as a character that temps the hero, usually in lusty fashion.

Separation from the Feminine  — Often a mother or prescribed feminine role. Diana (Wonder Woman), the princess, wishes to become a warrior. However, her mother, the Queen, initially forbids her to.
Identification with the Masculine and Gathering of Allies — Often entails choosing a path that is different than the role prescribed for her, deciding to gear to”fight” an organization, role, or group that is limiting or entering some male/masculine-defined sphere. Diana finds a World War I pilot after he crash lands near her island. This is the first time she has seen a man and she quickly gathers an ally in him after she learns that a great war is raging, killing millions of innocents.
Road or Trials and Meeting the Ogres and Dragons — Heroine encounters trials and meets people who try to dissuade her from pursuing her chosen path and/or destroy her (ogres and dragons or their metaphorical counterparts). Diana ventures on the strange “road” through the civilized world of mankind. She wishes to go to the front of the war, but man after man opposes her doing so.
Experiencing the Boon of Success — The Heroine overcomes obstacles. In The Hero’s Journey, this is normally where the hero’s tale ends.  Diana proves herself in battle, showcasing her skills and powers that are above and beyond any man present.
Heroine Awakens to Feelings of Spiritual Aridity/Death — Success in this new way of life is either temporary, illusory, shallow, or requires a betrayal of self over time. Diana can not understand the reluctance on mankind’s part to saving the innocent and ending the war. Steve, the World War I pilot and her ally, is focused on completing the mission at hand of getting the secret gas plans to his superiors. Diana wants to stop the mythical Ares from waging war.
Initiation and Descent to the Goddess  —  The heroine faces a crisis of some sort in which the new way is insufficient and falls into despair. All of her “masculine” strategies have failed her. Despite her efforts and powers, many are killed by deadly German gases. Diana is heart broken.
Heroine Urgently Yearns to Reconnect with the Feminine — The heroine cannot go back to her initial limited state or position. Diana kills Ludendorff, but the war does not stop. She loses faith in the goodness of man and is perhaps ready to give up and fall back to her Amazon women beliefs that she was brought up with.
Heroine Heals the Mother/Daughter Split —  The heroine reclaims some of her initial values, skills or attributes but views them from a new perspective. Diana reclaims her vision as Ares reveals himself finally. Her true powers are then unleashed, showcasing what her mother always knew.
Heroine Heals the Wounded Masculine Within —  Heroine makes peace with the “masculine” approach to the world as it applies to herself. Diana says goodbye to Steve and realizes that while mankind is flawed, it is worth fighting for.
Heroine Integrates the Masculine and Feminine — She faces the world or future with a new understanding of herself and the world/life. Heroine sees through binaries and can interact with a complex world that includes her but is larger than her personal lifetime or geographical/cultural milieu. Diana accepts her role. She will fight for justice and for mankind. This leads to the time leading up to and through the events of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and beyond.

• WTH, Joseph Campbell?  Women are only sirens or prizes?
  
• Chicken or the egg: If so many films follow this pattern, was Campbell right that his Hero's Journey is common to the psyches of all humanity or did his writings influence how female characters have been written?
  
• If it doesn't work to just flip genders for a story and that a heroine's journey is different partially due to social discrimination, wouldn't the Hero's Journey be problematic for disadvantaged characters too?
  
• If Rey was a man and Kylo was a woman, how would the audience view the Kylo-ette character?  More sympathetically?  As a clear temptress?  Perhaps the unmasking scene would include the removal of a cape, showing that she had an attractive body and the audience would have no problem understanding that she was supposed to be sexy?
  

Maria Antonietta wrote:I should buy a book to study the heroine's journey. I think they're using it for Rey, it is clear that Rey's path is different from Luke's or Anakin's. I'm going to read Von Franz's "Animus and anima in fairy tales" soon.

Estes discusses "Rage as a Teacher"..."all emotion, even rage, carries knowledge, insight, what some call enlightenment. Our rage can, for a time,
become our teacher, a thing not to be rid of so fast, but rather to climb a mountain for, to personify, to learn from, deal with internally, then shape into something useful in the world as a result...allowing oneself to be taught by one's rage, therefore transforming it, disperses it. One's energy returns to use in other areas...

The maiden represents the heartfelt and formerly sleepy psyche. But a warrior-heroine lies beneath...she has the endurance of the lone wolf. She is able to bear the dirt, grime, betrayal, hurt, loneliness, and exile.

DeeBee wrote:Hi Everyone,

I'm going to share some thoughts on Rey - So much Kylo talk and Rey/Kylo talk going on.. I find Rey to be a more challenging character to understand.. so anyone interested in sharing their thoughts on Rey's character?

I'll copy here a slightly edited version of what I just shared in a general (predictions) thread to get the ball rolling here..
...I'm still processing Rey's arc in TLJ. It seems to me that her unbridled optimism/magical thinking tendencies were her failure and confronting this was her arc in TLJ.
Rey's magically stubborn in clinging to her parents coming back... in Luke being the one who will just return and take down the FO with a lightsaber (as Luke says in the early stages of their introduction).. in confronting snoke,in believing her force vision.. and in believing Ben Solo can be redeemed.
For me, I see her as having confronted the realities - that things are not going to be so simple.. and she is going to need to persist on and fight..
I don't think this means she has given up hope - but her hope is now tempered with realism.
No wonder she took to the force like a duck to water - her force abilities in themselves were like a magical ability for her that she thought could solve everything.
Rey learned some tough lessons..

I don't see Rey's role moving forward as rebuilding the resistance - she may assist them, but her main role is to rebuild and reform the jedi order according to TLJ no? I'd say a scavenger is the perfect person to do it but.. it's left vague what that will look like.. IMHO of course.
The resistance and the jedi ares not one and the same thing..
i think it is also implied her role is to bring balance - but how exactly that plays out I think remains to be revealed in IX.

What do you think was Rey's story? her failures? her lessons she learned? I've shared my current ideas.. but I may change them yet
What did you make of the mirror scene?!

What about Rey's story stood out for you?

rey09 wrote:I loved Rey in TFA. I was hoping for more growth though and more understanding of her in TLJ. Instead her role mostly served as Ben's would be savior. 

Parentage- wanted this to bring some dark side out of her, but nothing. It was such a passing thought. Perhaps we'll see her really grapple in 9. 

Why is she so powerful? - Even Luke was like who are you? There seems to be more to Rey and we still have no idea. Like she had the vision of the island etc. Does everyone get that? It doesn't seem so...she is special, but why and how? 

Resistance- she has barely stayed with the resistance and she's acting like she's this big person in the movement. I understand the FO are super bad and she wants to fight the injustice but it doesn't seem to make that much sense.

DeeBee wrote:

rey09 wrote:I loved Rey in TFA. I was hoping for more growth though and more understanding of her in TLJ. Instead her role mostly served as Ben's would be savior. 

Parentage- wanted this to bring some dark side out of her, but nothing. It was such a passing thought. Perhaps we'll see her really grapple in 9. 

Why is she so powerful? - Even Luke was like who are you? There seems to be more to Rey and we still have no idea. Like she had the vision of the island etc. Does everyone get that? It doesn't seem so...she is special, but why and how? 

Resistance- she has barely stayed with the resistance and she's acting like she's this big person in the movement. I understand the FO are super bad and she wants to fight the injustice but it doesn't seem to make that much sense.

@rey09

The question I have that has not been answered is: Why Rey?
I figure - the force chose Rey. but why I don't know.. and I don't know if we will ever find out. I hope we do.. something interesting to speculate about.

rey09 you wrote: 'she has barely stayed with the resistance and she's acting like she's this big person in the movement.'
No obligation or anything.. but I'm curious if you could expand more on this thought?

Saracene wrote:Rey's character arc in TLJ is once again frustrating, because once again her emotions and motivations are left completely opaque near the end of the film just like in TFA.

TLJ did a pretty great job bringing Rey to her lowest point in the throne room, serving her with a double whammy: she finally confronts the painful truth about her family, and her attempt to bring Ben back fails spectacularly. All good stuff ripe for drama. But then she's dropped from the story and we're left to guess how she decided to cope with all of that, there's no connective tissue between the throne room and her cheerful re-appearance at Crait, and she doesn't talk to anyone about what just happened.

It would be like, in ESB, Luke disappeared from the movie after his encounter with Vader, and then somehow got reunited with Han and Leia going, woohoo what's up you guys?