The Heroine's Journey/Rey's Journey

Hi All,

motherofpearl1 wrote:If there is one part of TLJ I didn't like it's that scene at the end when Rey gives Kylo that cold self righteous look just before she slams the door in
his face - I hated it! The thing I liked about Rey in TFA is she was not a Mary Sue, she made mistakes. I saw this in her a lot throughout TLJ but when she ran back to the Resistance at the end....I was actually annoyed, although it was understandable from her point of view. I really dont want Rey to become one of those tiresome sanctimonious heroines who always know best and are always right - I'd much rather her be a grey character, just as I would also like the Resistance to be not quite as snow white as they seem. The groundwork has been laid...now it's time for JJ to finish what he started!!

@motherofpearl1
I've copied over this quote from the general discussion thread - hope that's okay Motherofpearl1 - I was not wanting this to get lost..

Interesting that you've described Rey as giving a 'cold self righteous look' in that final moment where she closes the MF door.
I hadn't interpreted it that way myself.. but I'm up for hearing different takes on things!
How is everyone else viewing Rey in this moment?
How would you describe her?

I'll get back here to share thoughts soon, just want to shout out for ideas if anyone would like to share.

I'll just add that I noticed how fast she is breathing there... You can just imagine that her heart is racing. She is deeply affected..

What's going on here with Rey peeps?! Do tell!

DeeBee wrote:How is everyone else viewing Rey in this moment?

Purposefully ambiguous.

nickandnora wrote:

DeeBee wrote:How is everyone else viewing Rey in this moment?

Purposefully ambiguous.

@nickandnora

rofl! Awh come on nickandnora! have a go! haaaa...

lol I gotta get on with my day job.. I'll try and get back here soon to share my thoughts.

I saw that moment as Rey hesitating when she sees Kylo, obviously still feeling something for him. But then there seems to be a noticeable moment where she steels herself and shuts off the emotion in her face until it's just firm disappointment. He made his choice, she thinks, and I have people to protect so I can't waste time wishing things were different. Then she closes the door with a rather pointed push of the button.

Basically, she cares about him but boy she's not happy with him right now and is leaving him behind her for the time being. He has all of IX to start fixing that, and I'm sure she won't be able to keep him off her mind or heart for long!

Also, I was just thinking about how it's unfortunate that Rey never got to witness Kylo and Luke's showdown and we never got to see her reaction to it. Because, considering she knows the full extent of their past together and how Kylo views it, I'm sure she would have just been sad for him in that moment watching him freak out at his uncle. And then I wonder how she would have reacted to "I'll destroy her."

I also interpreted Rey's look as "shutting off emotion" rather than displaying any particular emotion as such.

I don't think that Rey witnessing the showdown with Luke would have changed anything. It doesn't change the fact that Kylo is intent on ruling as the Supreme Leader and mowing down The Resistance; neither is a choice Rey can accept.

Saracene wrote:I also interpreted Rey's look as "shutting off emotion" rather than displaying any particular emotion as such.

I don't think that Rey witnessing the showdown with Luke would have changed anything. It doesn't change the fact that Kylo is intent on ruling as the Supreme Leader and mowing down The Resistance.

@Saracene

I don't think it would have changed anything, I just think it would have been interesting to see how she reacted to it.

I agree that Rey’s look is supposed to be somewhat ambiguous which I initially found a little frustrating because I wish we knew more about what was going on in her head; I feel we have a better idea of what was going on in Kylo’s head than in hers.

On my first viewing, I thought Rey seemed angry and determined, but also disappointed in that last scene with Kylo. I did notice her chest heaving which signified she was feeling emotional and she hesitated for a beat when she saw him. Her anger seemed very personal which showed she had feelings for him. She stared quite pointedly at him when she shut the door as well.

As much as I hated it on my first viewing because they were estranged, I think it needed to happen and it makes for a more dramatic conflict and ultimate reunion in Episode IX.

DeeBee wrote:Hi All,

motherofpearl1 wrote:If there is one part of TLJ I didn't like it's that scene at the end when Rey gives Kylo that cold self righteous look just before she slams the door in
his face - I hated it! The thing I liked about Rey in TFA is she was not a Mary Sue, she made mistakes. I saw this in her a lot throughout TLJ but when she ran back to the Resistance at the end....I was actually annoyed, although it was understandable from her point of view. I really dont want Rey to become one of those tiresome sanctimonious heroines who always know best and are always right - I'd much rather her be a grey character, just as I would also like the Resistance to be not quite as snow white as they seem. The groundwork has been laid...now it's time for JJ to finish what he started!!

@motherofpearl1
I've copied over this quote from the general discussion thread - hope that's okay Motherofpearl1 - I was not wanting this to get lost..

Interesting that you've described Rey as giving a 'cold self righteous look' in that final moment where she closes the MF door.
I hadn't interpreted it that way myself.. but I'm up for hearing different takes on things!
How is everyone else viewing Rey in this moment?
How would you describe her?

I'll get back here to share thoughts soon, just want to shout out for ideas if anyone would like to share.

I'll just add that I noticed how fast she is breathing there... You can just imagine that her heart is racing. She is deeply affected..

What's going on here with Rey peeps?! Do tell!

@DeeBee

For me :
In the past I happened to be disappointed by someone I loved. Then I reacted with pride. If there is something you can not accept from someone you love, is be disappointed. I mean she wanted everything Ben (ALL PART OF BEN). She can't get half Ben and a half Kylo .I read this in her eyes. She loves him but can't accept being disappointed - because she loves too much. When you love so much you want so much.
I don't think she closed the door forever. They are too similar. Too tied. They are terribly attracted to each other. She will try to forget him without ever succeeding ...

Ben / Kylo, in my opinion, tries the exact same thing. But on the contrary way. He loves her so much. He wanted to keep her (totally her) for himself but was not able to give the part of his soul she needs. He would like to do anything for her. Paint the clouds. Give her the all galaxy. The power. The force . Himself. This is what he believes is precious. He would give everything he has. Without understanding that it is not what she wants. I think, in essence, he's very sorry for how he managed himself. He hopes she will give him another chance.

I have a feeling that in the future, they will think again if there is a possible compromise.

I think...they need to accept each other for what they are. Kylo thinks that if he offered Rey the galaxy she would accept because she's a nobody who would have a chance to be somebody. But all Rey really wants is to be loved, that's all she wants,at least now. And Rey has to accept Kylo Ren - he's a part of Ben Solo and he's not going away. It reminds me of a fantasy book I read years ago, where the main character was a kind of split personality - one personality was a warm compassionate man,the other a cold blooded psychotic killer. In battle the negative part of his nature was an unstoppable warrior, but seemingly incapable of love. One night the man's lover, who had only experienced the 'positive' aspect of his personality, came to him asking him to make love to her seemingly unaware that the 'other guy' was in charge. He never harmed her. When the 'good guy' awoke and discovered what had happened he was initially horrified....until his girl told him she had known, yet had offered his 'dark' persona the chance to feel loved - and it worked. They were able to be together in the knowledge that both his personas loved this woman and would never hurt her. Way more extreme than Kylo of course....but that is essentially what is needed here. Rey wants Ben Solo....but the man  who told her she would never be 'nothing' to him was Kylo Ren.

motherofpearl1 wrote:I think...they need to accept each other for what they are. Kylo thinks that if he offered Rey the galaxy she would accept because she's a nobody who would have a chance to be somebody. But all Rey really wants is to be loved, that's all she wants,at least now. And Rey has to accept Kylo Ren - he's a part of Ben Solo and he's not going away. It reminds me of a fantasy book I read years ago, where the main character was a kind of split personality - one personality was a warm compassionate man,the other a cold blooded psychotic killer. In battle the negative part of his nature was an unstoppable warrior, but seemingly incapable of love. One night the man's lover, who had only experienced the 'positive' aspect of his personality, came to him asking him to make love to her seemingly unaware that the 'other guy' was in charge. He never harmed her. When the 'good guy' awoke and discovered what had happened he was initially horrified....until his girl told him she had known, yet had offered his 'dark' persona the chance to feel loved - and it worked. They were able to be together in the knowledge that both his personas loved this woman and would never hurt her. Way more extreme than Kylo of course....but that is essentially what is needed here. Rey wants Ben Solo....but the man  who told her she would never be 'nothing' to him was Kylo Ren.

@motherofpearl1

WOW, that sounds beautiful - I'm not into splitting Kylo/Ben because they are the same person and not a split personalty - but it's a good meta how she has to indeed except both sides of his character.

Thinking about it... I'm kind of like that myself. Most of the time I would claim to be a nice person - but I can be a nasty b**** if you upset me. Good thing I don't have force powers

But I'm very intrigued about that fantasy book you mentioned - may I ask it's title? Could be exactly the kind of story I enjoy reading...

Night Huntress wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I think...they need to accept each other for what they are. Kylo thinks that if he offered Rey the galaxy she would accept because she's a nobody who would have a chance to be somebody. But all Rey really wants is to be loved, that's all she wants,at least now. And Rey has to accept Kylo Ren - he's a part of Ben Solo and he's not going away. It reminds me of a fantasy book I read years ago, where the main character was a kind of split personality - one personality was a warm compassionate man,the other a cold blooded psychotic killer. In battle the negative part of his nature was an unstoppable warrior, but seemingly incapable of love. One night the man's lover, who had only experienced the 'positive' aspect of his personality, came to him asking him to make love to her seemingly unaware that the 'other guy' was in charge. He never harmed her. When the 'good guy' awoke and discovered what had happened he was initially horrified....until his girl told him she had known, yet had offered his 'dark' persona the chance to feel loved - and it worked. They were able to be together in the knowledge that both his personas loved this woman and would never hurt her. Way more extreme than Kylo of course....but that is essentially what is needed here. Rey wants Ben Solo....but the man  who told her she would never be 'nothing' to him was Kylo Ren.

@motherofpearl1

WOW, that sounds beautiful - I'm not into splitting Kylo/Ben because they are the same person and not a split personalty - but it's a good meta how she has to indeed except both sides of his character.

Thinking about it... I'm kind of like that myself. Most of the time I would claim to be a nice person - but I can be a nasty b**** if you upset me. Good thing I don't have force powers

But I'm very intrigued about that fantasy book you mentioned - may I ask it's title? Could be exactly the kind of story I enjoy reading...

@"Cacciatrice notturna"

How beautiful what you wrote. I fell in love again. Today I will not read anything else.

Night Huntress wrote:

motherofpearl1 wrote:I think...they need to accept each other for what they are. Kylo thinks that if he offered Rey the galaxy she would accept because she's a nobody who would have a chance to be somebody. But all Rey really wants is to be loved, that's all she wants,at least now. And Rey has to accept Kylo Ren - he's a part of Ben Solo and he's not going away. It reminds me of a fantasy book I read years ago, where the main character was a kind of split personality - one personality was a warm compassionate man,the other a cold blooded psychotic killer. In battle the negative part of his nature was an unstoppable warrior, but seemingly incapable of love. One night the man's lover, who had only experienced the 'positive' aspect of his personality, came to him asking him to make love to her seemingly unaware that the 'other guy' was in charge. He never harmed her. When the 'good guy' awoke and discovered what had happened he was initially horrified....until his girl told him she had known, yet had offered his 'dark' persona the chance to feel loved - and it worked. They were able to be together in the knowledge that both his personas loved this woman and would never hurt her. Way more extreme than Kylo of course....but that is essentially what is needed here. Rey wants Ben Solo....but the man  who told her she would never be 'nothing' to him was Kylo Ren.

@motherofpearl1

WOW, that sounds beautiful - I'm not into splitting Kylo/Ben because they are the same person and not a split personalty - but it's a good meta how she has to indeed except both sides of his character.

Thinking about it... I'm kind of like that myself. Most of the time I would claim to be a nice person - but I can be a nasty b**** if you upset me. Good thing I don't have force powers

But I'm very intrigued about that fantasy book you mentioned - may I ask it's title? Could be exactly the kind of story I enjoy reading...

@Night Huntress

"Dark Moon" by David Gemmell - sadly no longer with us, but he wrote some of the finest epic fantasy novels I have ever read- and not one of his characters were anything but grey. Interestingly, he often wrote of two groups of 'mystics' who were not unlike the Jedi and the Sith. He would, I think, have loved Kylo Ren!

Hiya, I’ve enjoyed hearing ideas on what you see happening with Rey during that final force bond moment on the MF.
I love to hear ideas, it helps me explore and expand my own thinking. It’s fun. [Yes I’m weird] So it looks like we see the following happen for Rey:
1) an initial reaction to the force bond connection opening up.
2) Rey’s processing of this little event.
3) And then finally – her response to it.
Would you agree?
But for each of these we may see different things..
@”nickandnora” – you are right, it is purposefully ambiguous. Drat haaaa.
Maybe we can’t have a definitive answer but maybe some of us can have fun exploring together.
I think I probably won’t really settle on a view of it till I get that dvd!

ZioRen wrote: I saw that moment as Rey hesitating when she sees Kylo, obviously still feeling something for him. But then there seems to be a noticeable moment where she steels herself and shuts off the emotion in her face until it's just firm disappointment. He made his choice, she thinks, and I have people to protect so I can't waste time wishing things were different. Then she closes the door with a rather pointed push of the button.

Basically, she cares about him but boy she's not happy with him right now and is leaving him behind her for the time being. He has all of IX to start fixing that, and I'm sure she won't be able to keep him off her mind or heart for long!

@”ZioRen”
Yeah! Hesitation and then she steeles herself– pointed push of the button is a great description! She was certainly determined to press that button and close that door!

@”Saracene” – a shutting down of emotions rather than a displaying of certain emotions. That’s an interesting thought.
I agree that sometimes its what we don’t see that is just as telling as what we do see!
Maybe Rey accepts Kylo/Ben’s choice to be SL – but she certainly won’t join him in it nor agree with it. I think.

Kessel wrote: I agree that Rey’s look is supposed to be somewhat ambiguous which I initially found a little frustrating because I wish we knew more about what was going on in her head; I feel we have a better idea of what was going on in Kylo’s head than in hers.

On my first viewing, I thought Rey seemed angry and determined, but also disappointed in that last scene with Kylo. I did notice her chest heaving which signified she was feeling emotional and she hesitated for a beat when she saw him. Her anger seemed very personal which showed she had feelings for him. She stared quite pointedly at him when she shut the door as well.  

@”Kessel” – so true! Rey is in many ways left obscured at the end of TLJ. We’ve learned much about her, but yes we’re going to need to wait for IX to truly see the fall out. I guess Rey doesn’t know the fall out yet either. She’s just doing the next thing, saving her friends, doing what she has to in order to get everyone out of there safely – figuring out where she is at after the events of TLJ is maybe something Rey hasn’t done yet as a character where we finish up. So while frustrating, it can make sense.

Ah you noticed the heavy breathing too! Yes, very strong emotions at play here.  Whooo some would say that is the dark side whooooo..
Yes again I agree with you – it is all very personal for Rey. She really went out on a limb for Kylo/Ben and things didn’t work out as she had hoped. Heartbreaking.

@”giaciak2” – Ah you see disappointment too. Interesting thoughts on Rey’s view of Kylo/Ben – I might come back to this idea.
However we see the accepting Kylo and wanting Ben or what- we can probably agree that what she got vs how she saw things playing out/what she wanted-  did not match up.. I see @motherofpearl1 has commented about this also.. I’ll come back to this. Hopefully, lol! [@”DeeBee” get back here to reply to this lol]

Here’s what I’m currently seeing with Rey and the final force bond moment in TLJ..
1) an initial reaction to the force bond connection opening up.
I think she is so shocked that she has a rush of adrenaline here. Her heart is racing. She was likely thinking this would never happen again – and surprise! There he is.. and he is currently pursuing all the people she just loaded on the MF – so I think there is an immediate surprise and rush of fear to suddenly see him in front of them.
2) Rey’s processing of this little event.
As she processes it, she realises he is not right in front of her – this is the force bond. Oh boy – we are still connected? She has feelings for him, and she hesitates as she processes what’s happening and starts to move on in her thinking to what needs to happen.
She tries to get control of her breathing.. He looks miserable – is he okay?  
3) And then finally – her response to it.
I can’t be thinking about if he is okay right now – I’ve got a ship full of people counting on me that I care about. I can’t care about him. I can’t agree with his choices, I can’t join him. I can’t deal with him and this thing between us.
I must be true to what I believe in, I must help my friends I care about escape. I must be strong!
Determined to be strong – She decides to shuts down her emotions toward Kylo/Ben and the force bond. And refocus. To me, she is not sending out an emotion to him. She is instead putting up a wall.
She is shutting out Kylo/Ben - but I get the impression that she is also shutting out a part of herself.

I don’t see hate or anger – and I think it’s significant that she is not sending out that emotion to him after what went down. She is still no longer looking at him like she did in the forrest – like he is a monster. Even after everything that went down in the throne room and on Crait – and this IMHO is massive, and very positive sign of where Rey is at with her feelings for Kylo/Ben.
Plus, she can’t help but notice he looks regretful, sad etc. He certainly isn’t looking at her like she is the enemy and he will hunt her down, there is no hate there for him either – as I said before, what we don’t see can be just as telling as what we do see.

There is a definite vibe of – We’re Not Done Yet!  

Anyone else got thoughts or ideas about Rey and the final force bond moment?

@DeeBee we just watched it again via the $5 Tuesday AMC member price! Heading home now. Looked at that scene closely... will write once we get settled in for the night

Edited to add: I'd agree with some of you who say she looked disappointed. Very deeply, I think. I also saw a bit of anger and frustration. She was indeed surprised to see him in the force-connection. I think it was interesting how heavy her sigh was.... my guess is that she will wait for him to re-establish their connection and keep a low profile until he does.

I also noticed how quickly he looked up as soon as he felt the connection establish itself. Did you all notice that? It was like... ohh there she is!!! LOL.

BTW, AD can really pull off those puppy eyes, can't he?

@Dar-ren19 - whoo hoo! Fresh insights are on their way!
Great!

@deebee I agree with your thoughts on Rey’s reaction.

I see a look of surprise first. A deep breath as she reminisces about what went down in the throne room, then shutting the door and her emotions off to him.. maybe something like, boyfriend, you messed up, don’t puppy dog eye me.

As for Kylos reaction... I noticed it too, that he looks up very quickly! I think even faster than Rey does. I think also surprised the connection is still there after what Snoke said about him bridging the minds. I wonder how feels about that now? He obviously looks sad and regretful and like a lost puppy. Was he crying or sweating, btw? Also notice how he jerks back when the door closes? Like is he right there and the sound is really loud?

@Dar-ren19 - thanks for sharing your thoughts Dar-ren19! Yeah it seems pretty unanimous that there is disappointment!
For the anger? I'm going to revisit this thread once the dvds come out.

@PrincessPorg - Enjoyed hearing your take PrincessPorg - btw I love your avatar very cute!!
Regarding Kylo's reaction: I suggest we discuss what is happening for Kylo/Ben in the final force Bond moment in the Kylo/Ben thread. This thread is specific to Rey. But I guess how Rey sees Kylo/Ben is relevant to her character, her journey and this thread. Just IMHO.

I enjoyed your thoughts on Rey's reaction too PrincessPorg! Rey is a very strong woman to shut the door on those 'puppy dog' eyes!!

I can see myself revisiting these ideas on and off over the next two years (well 22 months now?!)

@PrincessPorg
I noticed it too

he looks up quickly that's because the force connection came to him first.
and then we see Rey accompanying the rebels and then she stops and sees him. it almost seems that Rey asks herself
"Is there still someone to wait?" the two look at each other
"no, I do not think so" and Rey closes the door.
  she takes 10 seconds to close the door. there is hesitation, and communication between them

There are several things I would love to see in IX. I would like to see the shades of grey Rian hinted at explored more fully. I liked the way Rogue One showed a darker side to the Rebellion, and if something like that happens in IX I can see Rey wondering if she made the right choice. I also want to see how people react to her bond with Kylo. I also would like to see Phasma return.....Gwen Christie is such an amazing actress I want to see more of the first major SW villainess. And I want to see Hux evolve into the class A baddie he could be.

A general comment, touching on some things that have come up before. TLJ does leave some of Rey's motivations a little blurry, however, it saddens me to see nasty comments about how the horribly lazy writing meant she didn't have an arc or even any character development. I thought her whole purpose in the movie was that she hero-worshipped Luke, her parents, Han Solo, the Jedi of yore, etc., and she comes to realize maybe they weren't all so great and delightful, the world is not so black and white and clear cut, she won't find her identity or reasons for being or solutions to her problems with them. Maybe she can be and do her own thing. It's empowering, if a little sad at the same time. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp, or why Rey isn't really discussed very often in the TLJ discourse.

A bit like TFA, people were more interested in who her parents were and why she is so powerful, not her as a character or person or what her journey is and what she goes through. Is this an issue with the film, or GA and/or fanboys not understanding female characters, or characters in general? It's just kind of discouraging when the main character/co-protagonist, and a heroine at that, seems to only be seen as a Luke stand-in (despite that being essentially the opposite point of the movie), or badly written, or just not there at all.

californiagirl wrote:A general comment, touching on some things that have come up before. TLJ does leave some of Rey's motivations a little blurry, however, it saddens me to see nasty comments about how the horribly lazy writing meant she didn't have an arc or even any character development. I thought her whole purpose in the movie was that she hero-worshipped Luke, her parents, Han Solo, the Jedi of yore, etc., and she comes to realize maybe they weren't all so great and delightful, the world is not so black and white and clear cut, she won't find her identity or reasons for being or solutions to her problems with them. Maybe she can be and do her own thing. It's empowering, if a little sad at the same time. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp, or why Rey isn't really discussed very often in the TLJ discourse.

A bit like TFA, people were more interested in who her parents were and why she is so powerful, not her as a character or person or what her journey is and what she goes through. Is this an issue with the film, or GA and/or fanboys not understanding female characters, or characters in general? It's just kind of discouraging when the main character/co-protagonist, and a heroine at that, seems to only be seen as a Luke stand-in (despite that being essentially the opposite point of the movie), or badly written, or just not there at all.

@californiagirl

My conclusion on Rey and also Kylo is neither will compromise.....but where Kylo is learning already that being ruler of the galaxy will not cure his loneliness, I think Rey will also find her place is not with Finn, not anymore. The pity is,she has yet to realise that Kylo killing Snoke for her and not the so called greater good is an amazing compliment! I sometimes wonder if the deleted scenes might have revealed more...I pre ordered the novel on Amazon recently and was startled to see it apparently expands on the film, featuring scenes which never made it into the movie. Now I'm stoked!

@californiagirl

very good questions - I think it's a mix of wrong expectations, inability to consider a story/character deeper and unintentional(or not?) misleading in TFA.
I never got the obsession with Rey's lineage after TFA- She wasn't raised by her parents so why does it matter who they were? People were desperate with an explanation why she is so powerful in the force. She HAS to be related to some big OT character like Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine... JarJar Binks.
Never mind that force sensitivity weren't just a inherited thing. The fanboys never cared about Yoda's parents, or any other Jedis from the prequels... Maybe I was more accepting of that fact because in the old EU many powerful force-users were born with this ability without having famous Jedi or Sith parents.
I blame this partly on the prequels who made this mystical gift into something that's measurable in your blood (midichlorians- what a joke!)
After watching TFA the first time I was confused as well- because you have this strange hints like Anakin's lightsaber that calls to her or the fact that she grew up on a desert planet just like Luke and JJ did some very similar shots of her and Luke in ANH.
And because the saga always centered around a Skywalker and she was the main protagonist she HAS to be of Skywalker blood.
But than you have this very strange scenes with Kylo Ren- this dynamic who is absolutely NOT familiar and we knew that Kylo is Leia's son so it was kind of ewwwhhh gross to think they are related.

But after so many hints and evidence that Rey is NOT Luke's daughter I really couldn't understand how so many wanted her to be related to someone from the OT or Prequels.
I hoped she wouldn't be related to any big name because that would just distract from her as a individual person.
I do think she has an arc- but she is 19 years old...still a child in some aspects and she doesn't really know where she belongs herself.
She says it "I need someone who shows me my place in all this..." for me that's a big hint to where her place will be by the end of the ST - by Ben's side.

In my opinion her purpose in the big picture of this trilogy is to see Kylo/Ben's story through her eyes and of course her involvement with this big mighty legacy family.

She is much more complex and flawed than many people care to see.

TBH I didn't give a hoot about Rey's background......as long as she wasn't related to Kylo!!!

"I need someone who shows me my place in all this..."

she really does not need someone, she is able to choose who she is and what she wants, however she is inside the Resistance without her noticing. It just happened.
now she will be a beacon of hope for those who do not see. But all that happened with kylo, it's fair to think that they two belong together.

I have this weird feeling that Finn and Rey have two people in love with them- Rose and Kylo - and don't realise it yet.