Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

I almost titled this thread: The Future of the Jedi, but that didn't seem right, it needs to be a more encompassing term than just Jedi, Sith, Dark Side, Light Side....ultimately that's the underlying commentary, right? Ending the original Jedi mentality, "hubris," the mentality that split the group of force users into factions and enemies.

So we have Ben & Rey as an Adam & Eve archetype for the future of Force Users. We have the Knights of Ren (maybe, if they make an appearance, but we know they that DID exist at one point, and presumably the students that fled with Ben after the destruction of the Jedi Temple), and we have a younger generation of Force Users (born after the destruction of the Jedi Temple? Or too young to attend Luke's Academy)=ie. the loathed broomboi (maybe others out there if we have broomboi).

What do you guys postulate will happen with the future of Force Users? Or what SHOULD happen?

My initial thought is ending the "no attachments" mantra, obviously. Allowing Force Users to love, in different capacities, will bring the balance.

@SheLitAFire I think "refined Jedi sight" is the way to go.

I see refined sight as this: users should be taught to accept the duality of their nature - that love and hatred are not opposite emotions, that it's a strong thing to love, that anger is not evil by nature.

No matter how you cut it, the Jedi were teaching an unnatural thing - eschewing attachments, love, family, etc. And that ascetic way is in part what drove Anakin to become Darth Vader - there was no middle ground for the Jedi monks. He was expected to not care about his mother, fall in love, etc. And their compassion was to be of a broader nature - a love for the galaxy as a whole as opposed to personal connections. But you can do both.
I hope that Luke wasn't so strict on his pupils, but who knows?
The Sith, for all the emphasis on evil and dark at least acknowledged larger human emotions.

So - as rose-colored and optimistic as I am about Ben and Rey (I love an HEA, so sue me), I think the best case scenario is them rebuilding some sort of school for the Force gifted where they train students to accept the balance within themselves and they encourage them to do good, not harm, but to accept that they have the capacity for tremendous harm.

I was thinking we could have a thread where people can brainstorm about possibilities for this balance, and define light and darkness since it's a huge theme. (I didn't see a another thread like this but if I missed it, feel free to merge etc lol) 

My personal ramblings: 


I thought this video was very interesting- the first half breakdown just why the jedi were not so great and how their teachings led Vader to the dark side. 

I think that everyone has a good idea of "lightness" in SW, but darkness is more vague for the fandom to understand. I personally don't think darkness means evil- we all have some darkness in us. Luke admonishes Rey for being drawn to the dark, but when she fell into the hole, nothing remotely bad happens to her though. She doesn't turn evil or anything, and yet something "dark" happened. Likewise with Kylo, when he turns on Snoke, is that light *and* dark in him working together?

This is an interesting read in relation to the nature of the force in TLJ and beyond. I’m seeing many people, especially on Tumblr, still expecting ‘Grey Jedi’ but that’s not how the force works in Star Wars. Luke states in TLJ that Vader did bring balance for a (short) time after the Sith were destroyed, until the darkness rose again in Ben Solo. Maybe permanent balance isn’t achievable as there will always be those who disrupt it through their greed and lust for power. http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2017/12/the-force-reinforced-how-the-last-jedi-reaffirms-the-values-of-star-wars/

This is one of those topics that I can't quite...argh. Okay - brace for a stream of consciousness ramble.

Obi-Wan Kenobi once famously said: Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
Of course, he was making an absolute statement. So, as he condemns the Sith, he is simultaneously condemning himself. This is indicative of the broader Jedi teachings which eschewed personal attachments and deep emotions. I think it's fairly easy to see that the Jedi teachings were, at their core, unnatural. Generally speaking, sentient beings seek attachment, and humans certainly do.

The Sith, and I'm not very up on all the Sith teachings, but they embraced the Darker emotions, right? Anger, hatred, and this one is important - passion (not just in the sexual sense, or not even at all in the sexual sense - but a deeper drive for something like power.)

But let's look at love and hatred. People often mistake these emotions for opposites. They aren't. The opposite of love is not caring. The opposite of hate is not caring. This whole notion of a monastic order which sort of ignores the core of our beings - our drive to survive, to love, yes, even to hate is inherently flawed. The whole notion of an order which embraces only the "negative" emotions is equally as flawed as we see in the case of every Darth What's-His-Face ever.

So, the Jedi and the Sith, to me, don't seem all that different. At their heart, they are failing to embrace half of their natures. You've all seen the Jedi mosaic (I suppose it's still considered bootleg, so I won't post it here.) The yin/yang symbolism is just screaming at you. Space Bear indeed.

I think the struggle for these new Force users is going to be to learn to accept the duality of their own natures. And frankly, Kylo has a tougher row to hoe here. He's been indoctrinated in Light side lore and then Dark side; he's done terrible, terrible things in the name of the Dark. Rey has not been burdened with the corrupted teachings of either side. She has sought balance on her own and has drawn back from the brink (I think with the help of the Force, but that's for another post.)

It's not about Gray, if you're going to please the story group, et al. They get so hung up on terminology. It's about balance. It's about finding that place where you accept that you have the right to be angry, to feel strongly about people, things, even politics. But it's also finding compassion for the larger galaxy, for those who have no direct impact on you or your life. The Force is neither bad nor good. The Force is nature.

SWC once had a podcast where the presenter said that the Force was "in a bad way" after the Battle of Endor. All the Dark side users were gone (we thought), and it was left with a single lightsider and I guess maybe Snoke. Ben Solo was conceived in the wake of that battle and born a scant nine months later. The Force needed someone who accepted the dark in him/herself. In TLJ, Snoke says he thought Luke Skywalker would be the light to meet the dark, but it turns out it was Rey. I think that the initial statement is true (from SWC.) I also think that the Force has had about enough of this s***. It's made due for generations with users who only accept one side of their nature and it's not effing working. It needs users who accept the Force as a whole. And I think the Force has settled on Ben/Kylo (let's be real - same guy) and Rey as its champions. They will be the start of this new Jedi order that has "refined Jedi sight," that will teach and accept the original nature of the Force - light and dark.

I, for one, want the Force to get these two a room so they can sort out their differences.

I feel as though I have inadequately expressed my thoughts, but that's the start of it.

@KrazyForKylo You bring up something that's also bugged me- the galaxy will never be in balance will it? Just looking at our own world, creating a utopia of peace and harmony is impossible. The article points to greed for power as the thing that throws things off. I agree with that, as in our world, people's ideas of power of superiority end up creating injustice and disharmony. But I think SW is taking a step further showing why do people vie for power. For Kylo's case I think, it is that he has been pulled around all his life because of his inherent gifts, and now he wants revenge on people who have hurt him. People take out their personal agendas against the wider society. 
I found this quote interesting from that article - The dark side promises everything, and gives us nothing; the light promises nothing, and gives us everything.


@PalmettoBlue I totally agree, I never paid attention to jedi teachings before but now I see that they were too stoic. It will be interesting to see how Kylo manages to keep his darkness but at the same time letting go of his extreme violence. 

rey09 wrote:@KrazyForKylo You bring up something that's also bugged me- the galaxy will never be in balance will it? Just looking at our own world, creating a utopia of peace and harmony is impossible. The article points to greed for power as the thing that throws things off. I agree with that, as in our world, people's ideas of power of superiority end up creating injustice and disharmony. But I think SW is taking a step further showing why do people vie for power. For Kylo's case I think, it is that he has been pulled around all his life because of his inherent gifts, and now he wants revenge on people who have hurt him. People take out their personal agendas against the wider society. 
I found this quote interesting from that article - The dark side promises everything, and gives us nothing; the light promises nothing, and gives us everything.


@PalmettoBlue I totally agree, I never paid attention to jedi teachings before but now I see that they were too stoic. It will be interesting to see how Kylo manages to keep his darkness but at the same time letting go of his extreme violence. 

@rey09

It is difficult to see how long lasting, never mind eternal, balance could be achieved. It reminds me of The Matrix where the machines had to make the world simulation imperfect because humans couldn’t handle living in a utopia. We can’t seem to overcome our baser instincts as we see in our own world that the cycles of war and violence in society keep being repeated. In stories, we get happy endings because they usually finish at the point where good overcame evil - as in Return of The Jedi, but that wasn’t the end of the story and evil wasn’t defeated forever.

Individuals and small groups of people could achieve balance and live in harmony with nature, we see this in our world too. How it could ever be done on a mass scale, I don’t know when there are always going to be some who want more than nature or society can provide. I find the teachings of J Krishnamurti to be particularly enlightening in regards to effecting lasting change but it’s about seeing and becoming, which also seems like a tall order in this or any world!

ETA - Pablo Hidalgo just recommended this take on The Last Jedi and it really does hit the nail on the head as far as what we’ve been discussing here goes https://www.avclub.com/this-is-not-going-to-go-the-way-you-think-the-last-jed-1821472840 This is why Ep IX is wide open in terms of how they approach the ending. Happy endings aren’t forever and they never were!

I don't remember the source, but I read somewhere that two feelings humanity won't ever be able to dismiss- curiosity and avarice.

the galaxy will never be in balance as much as our real world. But we can achieve balance in ourselves- within our own feelings.

Kylo/Ben is out of balance because he can't overcome his anger/hate - that's why he goes ballistic and needs to destroy things... - at least that's my take on it.

That article is straight-up about how happy endings don't last forever when stories continue. As in... in order for the ST to exist the happy ending and fairytale "they lived happily ever after" of the OT had to be torn apart. The same thing would have to happen to a potential happy ending in IX for stories to continue into episodes X+. It says nothing about happy endings not existing and Pablo isn't saying it does.

Anything to get yourself in a tizzy over nothing, I suppose!

Who’s getting in a tizzy? I’m not saying Ep IX won’t have a happy ending, that’s not what I took from it at all. I’m all in this for Kylo’s redemption and a happy ending for him and Rey, I wouldn’t be here still otherwise.

Well, if we follow what Snoke says, apparently the Force is always enabling balance - Rey's light balancing out Kylo's darkness, for one.

The question is whether these "destined" forces are in stasis, or can they undergo change? If Kylo were to turn, would that just mean Rey would turn too and they'd forever be on opposing sides? Or would it just cause a new evil to rise?

Rimfaxe96 wrote:Well, if we follow what Snoke says, apparently the Force is always enabling balance - Rey's light balancing out Kylo's darkness, for one.

The question is whether these "destined" forces are in stasis, or can they undergo change? If Kylo were to turn, would that just mean Rey would turn too and they'd forever be on opposing sides? Or would it just cause a new evil to rise?

@Rimfaxe96

It isn’t a case of one powerful dark sider and one powerful light sider being the balance, though. Luke said it was vanity to suggest that without the Jedi there would be no light, just as destroying the Sith didn’t eradicate darkness. The balance of the force, as TLJ presented it when Rey reached out to it on Ahch-To, is in tandem with the balance of nature. When darkness rises it throws the natural balance out of whack and the light has to rise to overcome it and restore the balance. I guess a real world equivalent would be the damage and destruction man has brought to the environment by the aggressive plundering of its resources. The balance can only be restored by removing the destructive force.

KrazyForKylo wrote:It isn’t a case of one powerful dark sider and one powerful light sider being the balance, though. Luke said it was vanity to suggest that without the Jedi there would be no light, just as destroying the Sith didn’t eradicate darkness. The balance of the force, as TLJ presented it when Rey reached out to it on Ahch-To, is in tandem with the balance of nature. When darkness rises it throws the natural balance out of whack and the light has to rise to overcome it and restore the balance. I guess a real world equivalent would be the damage and destruction man has brought to the environment by the aggressive plundering of its resources. The balance can only be restored by removing the destructive force.

@KrazyForKylo

Well then the force is already in balance. Neither Rey nor Kylo are messing with nature in any way (at least not anymore now that SKB is gone, being the only weapon left which was able to do large damage on a galaxy-scale-level).  

Rimfaxe96 wrote:

KrazyForKylo wrote:It isn’t a case of one powerful dark sider and one powerful light sider being the balance, though. Luke said it was vanity to suggest that without the Jedi there would be no light, just as destroying the Sith didn’t eradicate darkness. The balance of the force, as TLJ presented it when Rey reached out to it on Ahch-To, is in tandem with the balance of nature. When darkness rises it throws the natural balance out of whack and the light has to rise to overcome it and restore the balance. I guess a real world equivalent would be the damage and destruction man has brought to the environment by the aggressive plundering of its resources. The balance can only be restored by removing the destructive force.

@KrazyForKylo

Well then the force is already in balance. Neither Rey nor Kylo are messing with nature in any way (at least not anymore now that SKB is gone, being the only weapon left which was able to do large damage on a galaxy-scale-level).  

@Rimfaxe96

It’s not in balance though, because the greed and hunger for power of the dark side disrupts the balance. We heard Rose talk about how the First Order came to her planet and stripped it for materials and tested weapons on them. The First Order and the rise of the darkness is a destructive force. It’s not as if Kylo will sit at home practising his calligraphy now he’s Supreme Leader or that the First Order will suddenly stop their quest for total galactic domination.

KrazyForKylo wrote:

Rimfaxe96 wrote:

KrazyForKylo wrote:It isn’t a case of one powerful dark sider and one powerful light sider being the balance, though. Luke said it was vanity to suggest that without the Jedi there would be no light, just as destroying the Sith didn’t eradicate darkness. The balance of the force, as TLJ presented it when Rey reached out to it on Ahch-To, is in tandem with the balance of nature. When darkness rises it throws the natural balance out of whack and the light has to rise to overcome it and restore the balance. I guess a real world equivalent would be the damage and destruction man has brought to the environment by the aggressive plundering of its resources. The balance can only be restored by removing the destructive force.

@KrazyForKylo

Well then the force is already in balance. Neither Rey nor Kylo are messing with nature in any way (at least not anymore now that SKB is gone, being the only weapon left which was able to do large damage on a galaxy-scale-level).  

@Rimfaxe96

It’s not in balance though, because the greed and hunger for power of the dark side disrupts the balance. We heard Rose talk about how the First Order came to her planet and stripped it for materials and tested weapons on them. The First Order and the rise of the darkness is a destructive force. It’s not as if Kylo will sit at home practising his calligraphy now he’s Supreme Leader or that the First Order will suddenly stop their quest for total galactic domination.

@KrazyForKylo

There are other forums on the internet where people are more than happy to discuss how awful Kylo is. Just sayin'.

And all of this is why I think that balance is about Force users not rejecting major portions of their make-up. That was the whole point (which I suppose was too wordy or unclear) of my earlier post.
So Kylo has to accept both the Dark and the Light within himself, as well as Rey. And together, they make up the classic yin/yang - the delicate balance.
If you'll pardon the hyperbole, they complete each other.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

KrazyForKylo wrote:

Rimfaxe96 wrote:

KrazyForKylo wrote:It isn’t a case of one powerful dark sider and one powerful light sider being the balance, though. Luke said it was vanity to suggest that without the Jedi there would be no light, just as destroying the Sith didn’t eradicate darkness. The balance of the force, as TLJ presented it when Rey reached out to it on Ahch-To, is in tandem with the balance of nature. When darkness rises it throws the natural balance out of whack and the light has to rise to overcome it and restore the balance. I guess a real world equivalent would be the damage and destruction man has brought to the environment by the aggressive plundering of its resources. The balance can only be restored by removing the destructive force.

@KrazyForKylo

Well then the force is already in balance. Neither Rey nor Kylo are messing with nature in any way (at least not anymore now that SKB is gone, being the only weapon left which was able to do large damage on a galaxy-scale-level).  

@Rimfaxe96

It’s not in balance though, because the greed and hunger for power of the dark side disrupts the balance. We heard Rose talk about how the First Order came to her planet and stripped it for materials and tested weapons on them. The First Order and the rise of the darkness is a destructive force. It’s not as if Kylo will sit at home practising his calligraphy now he’s Supreme Leader or that the First Order will suddenly stop their quest for total galactic domination.

@KrazyForKylo

There are other forums on the internet where people are more than happy to discuss how awful Kylo is. Just sayin'.

@ISeeAnIsland

I know exactly what you’re saying.

Kylo is my favourite character. If I didn’t believe he could be redeemed or have a happy ending with Rey, I wouldn’t bother investing any time in this or any other Star Wars related forum.

The light, dark, and balance stuff is all in Star Wars canon. I’m not saying anything about the dark side that hasn’t already been spelled out in The Clone Wars, Rebels, or other official materials. It was all in TLJ too, Luke and Rey’s arcs were all about the embodiment of the light side while Kylo’s (and Snoke’s) illustrated what happens when someone gives themselves over to the dark. It’s not the full story or the end of the story but it’s where the light and dark sides were at in that particular chapter.

PalmettoBlue wrote:And all of this is why I think that balance is about Force users not rejecting major portions of their make-up. That was the whole point (which I suppose was too wordy or unclear) of my earlier post.
So Kylo has to accept both the Dark and the Light within himself, as well as Rey. And together, they make up the classic yin/yang - the delicate balance.
If you'll pardon the hyperbole, they complete each other.

@PalmettoBlue

This is how I see it, too.

Look at marriage as analogy... In a healthy, supportive marriage, one partner helps the other when they're down... Usually, that means taking on more of the "load" of something. And when things change, the partners switch off, with the other one offering support.

How I think this applies to Rey and Kylo is that he'll probably always be a bit dark, but Rey will help balance him out. Ideally, there's going to be an equilibrium where they're both a bit light and dark, but as one side increases in one of them, the opposing side will rise to meet it in the other. At least, this seemed to be what was being foreshadowed in Rey's lesson about "balance" where we saw the montage about life and death, etc.

I think both have to accept the dark within them but still stay firmly in the "light" (which, basically, is just not doing terrible stuff) in their choices and outlook when all is said and done. By accepting the dark, you acknowledge that it's there but don't let it overwhelm or take control of you anymore. But it doesn't mean you can still stay partially dark. Wavering between the two doesn't work in the traditional sense of dark vs light in Star Wars. 

So in that sense, I never understood the yin and yang concept that had Kylo staying the dark side and Rey the light. They can balance each other out, but Kylo can't be redeemed and still be "the dark". I see it as sort of what Rey did in TLJ. She dipped into the dark side "unafraid" but came out of it without letting it get a grip on her. Kylo will probably always struggle with it, but part of a future redemption arc for him may be the heroism in working hard to keep that part of him in check while trying to make up for some of the wrong he's done.

ZioRen wrote:I think both have to accept the dark within them but still stay firmly in the "light" (which, basically, is just not doing terrible stuff) in their choices and outlook when all is said and done. By accepting the dark, you acknowledge that it's there but don't let it overwhelm or take control of you anymore. But it doesn't mean you can still stay partially dark. Wavering between the two doesn't work in the traditional sense of dark vs light in Star Wars. 

So in that sense, I never understood the yin and yang concept that had Kylo staying the dark side and Rey the light. They can balance each other out, but Kylo can't be redeemed and still be "the dark". I see it as sort of what Rey did in TLJ. She dipped into the dark side "unafraid" but came out of it without letting it get a grip on her. Kylo will probably always struggle with it, but part of a future redemption arc for him may be the heroism in working hard to keep that part of him in check while trying to make up for some of the wrong he's done.

@ZioRen

I totally agree. Thank you for articulating it better than I managed. It will probably be a lifelong struggle for Kylo to overcome his dark impulses but he can still find balance within himself. As Yoda said, failure is the greatest teacher. It’s not about denying the dark parts of oneself, it’s about recognising them and accepting them but not letting them dominate or control you.

Yeah I think Kylo will have darkness in him but he will channel his anger into more "helpful" ways. If anyone's seen Stranger Things, we were discussing in the thread how Eleven sort of used her dark side to save the day in the end. It could end up being something nuanced like that.

rey09 wrote:Yeah I think Kylo will have darkness in him but he will channel his anger into more "helpful" ways. If anyone's seen Stranger Things, we were discussing in the thread how Eleven sort of used her dark side to save the day in the end. It could end up being something nuanced like that.

@rey09

That's what I was trying to say (and not saying very well). Granted, it seems like we're getting sort of conflicting messages between the yin/yang, "nature" balance of things vs. the "finding balance within yourself" message. It's probably too early to tell which why things are going, as both messages are subtly different.

ISeeAnIsland wrote:

rey09 wrote:Yeah I think Kylo will have darkness in him but he will channel his anger into more "helpful" ways. If anyone's seen Stranger Things, we were discussing in the thread how Eleven sort of used her dark side to save the day in the end. It could end up being something nuanced like that.

@rey09

That's what I was trying to say (and not saying very well).  Granted, it seems like we're getting sort of conflicting messages between the yin/yang, "nature" balance of things vs. the "finding balance within yourself" message. It's probably too early to tell which why things are going, as both messages are subtly different.

@ISeeAnIsland yeah I get what you mean. It will be interesting to see where they take it. When you have nature, nature is very neutral, it's just the way the world functions. When it comes to us, our actions can be positive negative or neutral. 

This is just me rambling but I thought it was interesting that Rey envisioned violence with the waves crashing in- showing that even nature has a violent aspect, such as earthquakes and tornadoes. But we attribute those as products of science and chance whereas when people are violent that is due to choice. As people our decisions hold weight and we must be held accountable, whereas nature is just what is, there is no questioning it.

rey09 wrote:Yeah I think Kylo will have darkness in him but he will channel his anger into more "helpful" ways. If anyone's seen Stranger Things, we were discussing in the thread how Eleven sort of used her dark side to save the day in the end. It could end up being something nuanced like that.

@rey09

I loved Eleven’s arc in Stranger Things 2! I know the episode where she meets Kali was polarising but I read a defence of it which basically said - In order to fight the monsters, Eleven had to realise she wasn’t one herself. She learned how to channel her hurt without being controlled by it. The love and acceptance of her friends and foster father gave her a reason not to go down the path that Kali chose.

Hi all. Can I just say I love that you started this thread rey09?!  I see my understanding of this topic as a real work in progress!
You ask 'Light, Dark, and Balance. But How?'
An explanation for the 'How' may be found in the http://reylo.skyforum.net/t718-sw-canon-material-and-possible-spoilers-for-ix-black-diamondthread. It's technically not spoilers as it's canon materials:

light, dark and the force:

The question I struggle with is what does balance look like? I'd love to reply to all the amazing thoughts here but I currently can only publish short comments keep getting cut off. I'll try and come back to this on a good forum day. LOL.
Briefly.. I think assumed force knowledge needs to be revisited in light of TLJ... It's tricky because things we've learned about the force in Episodes 1-6 have been shown to be errors in understanding... IMHO the paradigm: 'Light = Good and Darkness = Evil' is being challenged...
they've been presented as polar opposites - but I think it's more complicated than that.
Love this thread!!!