Re: Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

by DeeBee Thu 21 Dec 2017, 6:31 pm

rey09 wrote:I was thinking we could have a thread where people can brainstorm about possibilities for this balance, and define light and darkness since it's a huge theme. (I didn't see a another thread like this but if I missed it, feel free to merge etc lol)

My personal ramblings:

I thought this video was very interesting- the first half breakdown just why the jedi were not so great and how their teachings led Vader to the dark side.

I think that everyone has a good idea of "lightness" in SW, but darkness is more vague for the fandom to understand. I personally don't think darkness means evil- we all have some darkness in us. Luke admonishes Rey for being drawn to the dark, but when she fell into the hole, nothing remotely bad happens to her though. She doesn't turn evil or anything, and yet something "dark" happened. Likewise with Kylo, when he turns on Snoke, is that light *and* dark in him working together?

@rey09

rey09- is this your vid? I think it's awesome!! Smile

I loved the recap of the jedi mindset/ emotions and Anakin's experience. Yep. the Jedi is messed up Wink

I was also really struck by how much your description of the Jedi's errors actually describes Kylo Ren! Ironic given he has turned his back on the Jedi.
He is pretending he has no negative or conflicting feelings
He exaggerates the permanents of undesirable emotions (uh oh. Can't do compassion!)
He shuts down his feelings as a method of resisting - only for him it's resisting the light, not the darkness.

Dark Kylo Ren and the Jedi are much more similar than they first seem.... how interesting!

by rey09 Thu 21 Dec 2017, 7:06 pm

@DeeBee haha I def did not make this! The Charisma on Command guy is very brilliant, def recommend his other vids lol.

And yea Kylo shows the same issues Anakin had. I mean we don't know what Luke actually taught him but I imagine it was similar to Anakin.

by Guest Thu 21 Dec 2017, 8:55 pm

This is a good read in relation to how TLJ connects to the animated Star Wars series in regards to the force. Pablo Hidalgo did say on Twitter that The Clones Wars especially, which Rian Johnson confirmed he had watched, was a good place to start for those who wanted to understand TLJ better. http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/connecting-the-star-wars-animated-series-to-the-last-jedi

by fuhry Fri 22 Dec 2017, 8:57 am

KrazyForKylo wrote:This is a good read in relation to how TLJ connects to the animated Star Wars series in regards to the force. Pablo Hidalgo did say on Twitter that The Clones Wars especially, which Rian Johnson confirmed he had watched, was a good place to start for those who wanted to understand TLJ better. http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/connecting-the-star-wars-animated-series-to-the-last-jedi

@KrazyForKylo

This is awesome.

Please lord jeebus, give us Ahsoka Tano in episode IX.....

by Gemlake Fri 22 Dec 2017, 3:38 pm

ISeeAnIsland wrote:
PalmettoBlue wrote:And all of this is why I think that balance is about Force users not rejecting major portions of their make-up. That was the whole point (which I suppose was too wordy or unclear) of my earlier post.
So Kylo has to accept both the Dark and the Light within himself, as well as Rey. And together, they make up the classic yin/yang - the delicate balance.
If you'll pardon the hyperbole, they complete each other.
@PalmettoBlue

This is how I see it, too.

Look at marriage as analogy... In a healthy, supportive marriage, one partner helps the other when they're down... Usually, that means taking on more of the "load" of something. And when things change, the partners switch off, with the other one offering support.

How I think this applies to Rey and Kylo is that he'll probably always be a bit dark, but Rey will help balance him out. Ideally, there's going to be an equilibrium where they're both a bit light and dark, but as one side increases in one of them, the opposing side will rise to meet it in the other. At least, this seemed to be what was being foreshadowed in Rey's lesson about "balance" where we saw the montage about life and death, etc.

@ISeeAnIsland
I think this was foreshadowed by Rian with the Prime Jedi design. Of course, the panda represents the Last Jedi, in that Kylo was unredeemed, yet he still formed a bond with Rey. But that dark/light dynamic didn't work. The Prime Jedi, in contrast, has each side containing both light and dark. The Art of the Last Jedi book shows that Rian went through several designs for the Prime Jedi and wanted to get the image just right.

by Gemlake Fri 22 Dec 2017, 3:48 pm

KrazyForKylo wrote:
rey09 wrote:

ETA - Pablo Hidalgo just recommended this take on The Last Jedi and it really does hit the nail on the head as far as what we’ve been discussing here goes https://www.avclub.com/this-is-not-going-to-go-the-way-you-think-the-last-jed-1821472840 This is why Ep IX is wide open in terms of how they approach the ending. Happy endings aren’t forever and they never were!
@KrazyForKylo
This is an excellent article. The fans moan the loss of ROTJ's perfect ending, but you can't make a movie about how wonderful everything is. The article says: "Otherwise, what story is there to tell? Luke becomes even more the self-possessed, slightly New Age-y bore he was in Return Of The Jedi, dutifully passing on his wisdom to a new generation of Jedi trainees? Han and Leia’s marriage suffers the occasional strains, but mostly they’re happy in love?"

That is exactly the story the fan boys wanted. I remember when the plot of TFA leaked, and fans were up in arms about what JJ had done. I was trying to figure out what the fans wanted instead. So I read some prediction posts in the Jedi Council forum. The plots all seemed to revolve around "Master Luke" training the new generation of Jedi, included Skywalkers and Solos. Han and Leia visit the academy to see their children. A big bad appears. Luke wins the day. Yawn.

by DeeBee Fri 22 Dec 2017, 8:12 pm

@rey09 – well it was still a great find
@KrazyForKylo – thanks for sharing the fantastic article! I’ve been meaning to watch clone wars but so many seasons have seemed overwhelming time wise.
I’m going to head straight for the episodes the article suggested!

by CienaRee Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:11 am

This is a really interesting discussion I'm not sure what the ST's definition of Balance will be but I'm thinking it will be similar to the one from Mulan for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCm6W8s_wnI

by Acritiqua Sat 23 Dec 2017, 9:30 am

Maybe the movie showed balance both when Rey and Kylo touch hands (Force theme) and when they fight the red guards together, perfectly in sync. It's after that the dream is dashed and to each of them it may seem like it was all an illusion. But that the Force theme played for them shows there was something true they found. Kylo was right that they should be together, but after Rey wouldn't go with him and tried to take the lightsaber, he must have thought he was wrong, that there was never anything meaningful there, she's just another person to abandon him... But if he can come to examine this after, that something true happened between them is inescapable. It just wasn't what he thought it was. He has to give up the dark side to see it.

In TFA, Lor San Tekka says that without the Jedi there can be no balance in the Force. This tells us the Star Wars idea of balance. The Jedi's purpose is to maintain the balance in the Force. When Rey and Kylo act together to do that, it is as though they are one. They may be disappointed in one another, but I hope they will both come to see that the part of this in which they were like one being was real. That was true. And it's worth keeping.

The Jedi weren't supposed to be light side warriors fighting dark side warriors. There wasn't supposed to be this polarization. The Jedi were supposed to be stewards of the Force and the balance. As Luke said, that energy doesn't belong to you. It is to be respected, not wielded for one's own purposes.

Seeing things this way, Kylo's redemption doesn't even matter because he doesn't need it. When he and Rey find balance together he is exactly as he should be, and he is whole.

And I can't believe that TLJ would show us this thing between Rey and Kylo that is real and true only to snatch it away in the next film for the more conventional story of Rey killing the evil Kylo because he's too evil to return.

by MrsWindu Sat 23 Dec 2017, 4:09 pm

Wasn’t sure where to put this but I thought as the Jedi temple mosaic is about ting and yang

Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how? - Page 2 4089cc10

Although it’s concept art it’s intersting to note for the bottom version

the rocks on either side are faceless because they have not chosen yet which face the viewer is to become

I’m wondering if that mosaic pool was to serve another purpose at some point

by Guest Sat 23 Dec 2017, 10:41 pm

fuhry wrote:
KrazyForKylo wrote:This is a good read in relation to how TLJ connects to the animated Star Wars series in regards to the force. Pablo Hidalgo did say on Twitter that The Clones Wars especially, which Rian Johnson confirmed he had watched, was a good place to start for those who wanted to understand TLJ better. http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/connecting-the-star-wars-animated-series-to-the-last-jedi
@KrazyForKylo

This is awesome.

Please lord jeebus, give us Ahsoka Tano in episode IX.....

@fuhry

I would love to see Ahsoka in one of the movies. She’s one of my favourite characters!

DeeBee wrote:@rey09 – well it was still a great find
@KrazyForKylo – thanks for sharing the fantastic article! I’ve been meaning to watch clone wars but so many seasons have seemed overwhelming time wise.
I’m going to head straight for the episodes the article suggested!

@DeeBee

You’re welcome Smile

I really enjoyed The Clone Wars series, it made me like the prequels more too! The Mortis Arc in particular is fantastic - “Balance is found in the one who faces his guilt.” This seems particularly apt in light of Luke’s arc in TLJ.

There have been quite a few mentions of “the balance” in Rebels, and we’ve had dark and light working together to achieve certain goals with Ezra and Darth Maul. It took both of them to open the Jedi and Sith holocrons together, although they both got very different things from that experience.

Then there is the Bendu...

a massive creature that has an equally massive understanding of the Force. He’s available for sage advice and cryptic mysticism, but he doesn’t pick sides and get involved with the conflict. He's a genuinely neutral character, in tune with the Force above all else. Balanced, you could say.

"Perhaps it is the will of the Force that the Jedi and all your kind perish," said Bendu in a recent episode, while refusing to pick a side in the battle between the Empire and the Rebel Alliance. It seems like Bendu and Luke have learned similar lessons from the Force.

As far as I can see, outside of the Bendu, the notion of “the balance” has only been addressed thus far in Star Wars in relation to the Jedi. George Lucas likened the dark side to cancer and defined balance in the force as the removal of the toxicity of the dark side. Balance is restored by removing whatever caused it to go out of whack in the first place.

I haven’t seen season 4 of Rebels yet, but I’ve heard that at one point Kanan says to Ezra - “We are the balance, Ezra. We were meant to be Jedi so we can be here, now.”

It does seem like current Star Wars canon is going with the notion of balance as defined by George Lucas. Whether JJ will take it anywhere else remains to be seen but I don’t think he would do anything to contradict what’s been established in recent years.

Even that Journal of the Whills quote used in the TFA novelisation suggests the answer lies with the Jedi...

“First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of the gray
Through refined Jedi sight.”

It seems to imply that the cycle of light and dark battling against each other will only be broken when the differences are resolved by refined Jedi wisdom. Luke and Yoda couldn’t do it in their lifetimes but maybe Rey and Kylo can find the balance in themselves and each other and then carry that wisdom forward to a new generation of Jedi.

by C.V Tue 26 Dec 2017, 1:54 pm

i always saw the balance as a cycle, its not everlasting and doesnt remain constant, anakin did achieve balance but now it has been disrupted. as for light and darkness, the way i always saw it was that there is the force and the perversion of it or corruption if you will. i've never been into the idea of the dark side needing to be part of the force, that without it there is no balance, but it never made sense to me especially when people throw out the notion that you cant have too much light. what does that mean, you cant have too much good?, you need to balance it out with darkness? like bad things e.g pain, suffering, power, death..?? if the idea is that you need both dark and light then they would have to change or really explain why the dark side isnt really all that bad but then for me it just makes it watered down, the dark side is some serious sith. it works more internally as everyone has both light and darkness in them they just need to accept and acknowledge it without it consuming them.

also watching TLJ that cave rey goes to feels like a metaphor for the dark side, its tempting, it offers you something you want and when you go the other side you find the offer was hollow and your left with nothing but yourself also highlighting selfishness

by Lamiller1390 Thu 28 Dec 2017, 10:30 am

I see all this talk about Kylo and where he has been and where he is going but I have not seen much written on just Rey. Rey is an important part of this Duo, she is as powerful in the light as Kylo is in the Dark.

For the last two years, people speculated on who she was. Whose daughter she was and now we find out she is from nobody. Kylo is not the first person to say that, she admits that herself to Kylo. That her parents were no one, Kylo just confirms it.

So knowing what we now know about Rey, we have a better understanding of her and her personality. Just like Kylo was abandoned by his parents, she too was abandoned. Most likely abused to some degree, definitely exploited by Unkar Plut (sorry if that is spelled wrong). She has to learn how to fend for herself and learned how to fight off people and protect herself. I do believe she too suffers from a form of PTSD... at the very least she did what a lot of children who had a difficult childhood do... she repressed her memories... which is a legit thing people do all the time. A part of her knew about her past, knew that her parents weren't coming back for her, Maz told her as much. She repeatedly told people she was no one. She had an identity crisis of her own, she held on hope that her parents which reach this ideal that she'd built up in her heard. In TLJ she finally had to face that and let it go... a very effective form of therapy I might add. So with her backstory partly opened up and a better understanding of who she is...

How do you think she will develop from here and how will that development play into her connection with Kylo? I am curious from a sociological and psychological standpoint because she could have taken a very similar route to Kylo but she did not.

I have plenty of ideas myself but I am curious about others opinions.

by Lamiller1390 Fri 29 Dec 2017, 9:13 am

Anyone, anyone???

by Rimfaxe96 Fri 29 Dec 2017, 9:21 am

Hm, nah, not PTSD - PTSD gives you downright memory loss, not twisting memories into what you wish them to be (speaking from experience here *cough* - although flashbacks can occur, but those are always VERY accurate and never self-gaslighting). Her holding on onto her parents might be because - well, what else did she have in her life? Literally nothing and no one except Plutt keeping her on her toes, barely. And I don't think it's much of an identity crisis either. I know people like to call Kylo manipulative for saying she's no one, but in the big scheme of things, it's true. And she KNOWS, that's why she told Luke that she needs someone to show her her place in all of this.

Alas, the question is generally hard to answer because I'm not even sure Rey is into the Jedi cause at all, the Resistance seems to be her primary focus at the moment. Even Daisy Ridley wasn't sure if Rey is actually a Jedi in older interviews. Nope

by PalmettoBlue Fri 29 Dec 2017, 9:44 am

I don’t think she’ll be a Jedi in the traditional sense. I think she will embody a new Jedi that seeks balance (and Luke was wrong - the Force was unbalanced after Vader’s death.)

She doesn’t reject the dark side of her psyche, but it doesn’t consume her like it does a Sith. And even then, “no one’s ever really gone.”

by SheLitAFire Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:10 am

This is similar to the thread I made last week, wondering what the future of/for Force Users will be like. The Future for Force Users

And seems similar to this thread: Light, Darkness, Balance...But How?

I feel like elements of these 3 threads could be merged together.

The Jedi council is long gone, Luke (who didn't complete his training) is gone, his training temple is gone, we have other half trained Jedi (Knights of Ren), Ben, Rey, & a scattering of others (Broomboi) and I hope that the lessons Luke did extend to Rey, even though they are jaded lessons, will influence her in the future.

I'm guess force ghosts like Yoda will need to make an appearance in the future to help provide some kind of guidance, because you do only have Ben and Rey partially trained in the force (Ben more so).

I'm hoping she'll continue to be raw as a force user. Not necessarily untrained but I like more emotional/less professional look compared to that of Qui-Gon Jin or other past Jedi. She and Ben really do represent the balance as ying & yang. And I hope that continues, I always hated the idea that Jedi needed to swallow their emotions and attachments. I hope they throw that to the wayside, which is what Rian was hinting at (I think).

I love Luke's line (and I'm paraphrasing because I didn't take a note pad with me to the cinema despite contemplating it lol) after her "light, darkness, life, death, balance" he's like "and that is the force, to say that light belongs to the Jedi and if the Jedi end the light will die is wrong/Jedi hubris"...when he's trying to tell her that the Jedi need to end, the light and dark will still prevail, the force won't change. It'll still be there. So the Jedi aren't necessarily the gatekeepers to the light or the force.

So what I'd like is that Rey & Ben start an academy to teach people who are sensitive to the force (b/c we know that distinction will still exist) about the force, about "that awakening inside them" but that they don't try to necessarily set themselves apart in society, on a pedestal, as much as they used to...hopefully avoiding factions (Jedi, Sith), although I don't believe it's entirely possible to avoid factions in the long run. Hopefully they will teach that emotions and attachments are ok. Love is the balance. The idea of the "Jedi" won't end...but I do agree with Luke, the old idea of the "Jedi" should perhaps end.

As for Rey, hopefully she'll get it through her head that she failed Ben in the same way Luke did. She didn't complete her training in the same way as Luke (lol), and she's impulsive and naive. I don't want her to be a symbol of "the light." I'm not necessarily advocating for a "grey Jedi" but I think that she and Ben both need to partially turn and meet in the middle, both light and dark.

by SheLitAFire Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:20 am

@PalmettoBlue

Well said!

If Rey and Ben do start a school in the future I hope that they don't keep up the mentality of having the Jedi set apart from society so much, like on a pedestal. It goes along with Luke's "that is the failure of the Jedi, the hubris of the Jedi" mentality.

Maybe force ghosts like Yoda will need to make an appearance in the future to help provide some kind of guidance, because you do only have Ben and Rey partially trained in the force (Ben more so, at least). I'm wondering how the ancient Jedi texts will come into play too. I wish we had more of that in VIII, the lore/history of those texts. But like Yoda said, "those texts didn't include anything the girl doesn't already know/have within her"....so maybe they're not as important as one might think.

Rey and Ben really do represent the balance as ying & yang. And I hope that continues, I always hated the idea that Jedi needed to swallow their emotions and attachments. I hope they throw that to the wayside, which is what Rian was hinting at (I think).

I love Luke's line (and I'm paraphrasing because I didn't take a note pad with me to the cinema despite contemplating it lol) after her "light, darkness, life, death, balance" he's like "and that is the force, to say that light belongs to the Jedi and if the Jedi end the light will die is wrong/Jedi hubris"...when he's trying to tell her that the Jedi need to end, the light and dark will still prevail, the force won't change. It'll still be there. So the Jedi aren't necessarily the gatekeepers to the light or the force.

by lauvamp Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:34 am

@SheLitAFire

Agree! I would like to see more grey in her, and a new kind of jedi. More freedom, no restrictions.

by PalmettoBlue Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:47 am

SheLitAFire wrote:@PalmettoBlue

Well said!

If Rey and Ben do start a school in the future I hope that they don't keep up the mentality of having the Jedi set apart from society so much, like on a pedestal. It goes along with Luke's "that is the failure of the Jedi, the hubris of the Jedi" mentality.

Maybe force ghosts like Yoda will need to make an appearance in the future to help provide some kind of guidance, because you do only have Ben and Rey partially trained in the force (Ben more so, at least). I'm wondering how the ancient Jedi texts will come into play too. I wish we had more of that in VIII, the lore/history of those texts. But like Yoda said, "those texts didn't include anything the girl doesn't already know/have within her"....so maybe they're not as important as one might think.

Rey and Ben really do represent the balance as ying & yang. And I hope that continues, I always hated the idea that Jedi needed to swallow their emotions and attachments. I hope they throw that to the wayside, which is what Rian was hinting at (I think).

I love Luke's line (and I'm paraphrasing because I didn't take a note pad with me to the cinema despite contemplating it lol) after her "light, darkness, life, death, balance" he's like "and that is the force, to say that light belongs to the Jedi and if the Jedi end the light will die is wrong/Jedi hubris"...when he's trying to tell her that the Jedi need to end, the light and dark will still prevail, the force won't change. It'll still be there. So the Jedi aren't necessarily the gatekeepers to the light or the force.

@SheLitAFire

I actually did take a note pad. No judgement here.

by MrsWindu Fri 29 Dec 2017, 6:26 pm

This was part of a whole of a page from The Art of but here’s a close up of what Rian had to say about the Jedi in the past. Note Rian uses the same line as Yoda to Luke - missing the thing that’s right in front of your nose (as the Force tree burns)

Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how? - Page 2 2b454010

by SheLitAFire Fri 29 Dec 2017, 6:51 pm

THAT'S the quote I keep trying to remember: "The force does not belong to the Jedi."

I really like that quote.

by snufkin Fri 29 Dec 2017, 6:57 pm

@MrsWindu Thanks for posting this and all of your scans from the art book. Very interesting comment - about the mindset both Luke and Ben have about leaving the past behind completely as something you can never fully do.

Also the comment about letting old religion die is both so on the mark for the religious (Protestant/Evangelical PoV) views I noticed in the film and the larger discussion around the future of that family and the franchise.

by SheLitAFire Fri 29 Dec 2017, 7:06 pm

@snufkin

Tell me more about the Protestant/Evangelical PoV in TLJ. I find religious connections interesting.

by snufkin Fri 29 Dec 2017, 7:14 pm

@SheLitAFire I've posted a couple times, but you have a writer/director who's spoken openly (there's an old podcast he did with Kevin Smith) about being raised Evangelical and how that informs the films he's made, plus all 3 lead male actors (and the 2 who are the main trio are both preacher's kids) also come from that background. Essentially I got the impression that the message Luke was trying to convey about ending the Jedi almost made him like John Luther and the Protestant Reformation. If you can look at the PT era and before as being the Holy Roman Empire for the position the Jedi held in society. The message about how the Force belongs to everybody is very much Luther's "Every man a minister" - having clergy be more egalitarian and how egalitarian depending on whether you're a mainline or Evangelical/charismatic Protestant. That's the message at the end with Rey realizing that she doesn't need Luke or Ben to save her friends, she can do that herself by performing an act which is like Moses parting the Red Sea. Which again, the shot is of two of the three actors who come from that religious upbringing, you think they didn't notice that? The final bit with Rey and Leia about starting a new Resistance/Rebellion and Leia says, "We have all we need here," I very much read that as the start of a new congregation/family of man.

The other thing with people arguing pro and con about what happens to Ben, I still very much see that as the scenario where nobody is too far down the Dark Path to not deserve grace and redemption. Which is a big part of the training I got as a Methodist, especially the history of John Wesley's time here in the Colonies. Anytime I read somebody saying that's it, he's going to die, I'm like did you read the Parable of the Prodigal Son? Because that's not the message in it and you sound like the Elder Son.

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