Light, Darkness, and Balance. But how?

I've been reading about the Jedi Path book.. Seems the author Daniel Wallace has a blog where he's shared endnotes (sources)..
His blog posts on the Jedi path are listed on the wookipedia page here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Jedi_Path:_A_Manual_for_Students_of_the_Force

I'll quote here what he said about the advanced force techniques:
"p. 131: The Advanced Force Techniques in this section come from a variety of sources. Battle Meditation is from the Tales of the Jedi comics. Combustion is something I invented for The New Essential Guide to Characters, speculating that Jedi Master Yarael Poof had the ability to start fires by increasing molecular friction. Art of the Small is something from the New Jedi Order novels, but I erred by listing it here and then establishing that Luke Skywalker obtained this book prior to the NJO events (basically, he shouldn't have been surprised by the use of Art of the Small in NJO if he'd already read about it in this book). The powers of Doppelganger and Force Storm are both from the Dark Empire comics. "

-Anyone read the dark empire comics?

I think I need to start saving for this box set!

I'm going to predict that one of the texts Rey has stolen is the Jedi path training manual.. seems to fit the description!

I've been slowly digging into the early history of the force based on what I can get my hands on.. lol.
Anyone else been reading about this? it's all new to me!

It's a little confusing at times because of the canon/non-canon issue.. and if something isn't canon - that doesn't mean it isn't about to become canon!

Anyway, I recently started reading the non-canon comic series 'Dawn of the Jedi' on youtube - and for anyone else interested in early force history I'd say you'll enjoy it!
I don't know if the history as it unfolds in Dawn of the Jedi will become the canon early history of the force, but I think it's likely there will at least be elements of it.

So what's really interesting in the early stuff is how the galaxy started using the force, how force users came to be.. and how they were originally not either dark or light - there were all about balance.
The story across Dawn of the Jedi is all about the Jedi valuing balance as their ideal. Wow. It blew me away this different way of looking at things.
[I should try and share some shots of it in the Balance specific thread...]
A really interesting thing to me was that the first force users were called the Je'daii - this pre dates the Jedi order..
I wondered if when Luke talks about the Jedi moving forward - if he is actually talking about the Je'daii??!!!
How cool would that be!
Here is the Wookiepedia page for the Je'daii: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order
[Yes wookiepedia is not the best source but this is stuff that's not mainstream canon.]

I'm thinking the Je'daii is non-canon at this point- anyone else able to speak to this?
However... the Bendu (the Je'daii name for balance) are in the clone wars, and the planet where the first force users resided 'Thyon' has become canon also - in the force awakens roleplaying game. And.. Thyon was invaded by Rakata - another planet that recently was included in canon.

Anyway, I didn't want to offer a 10 page essay on the history of the force- because I'm a beginner here and just thought I'd share a little tidbit about the origins of force users that has me very curious.
I think IX uncovering this history could be a fun adventure/quest for Rey and Ben.. and has the makings of a fabulous movie to bring together the nine movies and culminate in balance...
But.. must not get attached to this idea.. whatever we get will be great!

Wow. Great stuff!

I just want to say @DeeBee thanks for the info you have gathered, it's really insightful. I have nothing to add, because although I'm an ancient when it comes to the OT, I've never really dipped further into the films other than enjoying them. Now I'm enjoying them on a whole new level digging that bit deeper, has added more meaning.
So although I have nothing to add, I want you to know your research is appreciated

@PalmettoBlue @Let The Past Die

LOL thanks you guys!
I've been enjoying it.. this is all new!
LOL.. but I confess a little voice was very quietly saying in the back of my mind - hmm no one is reading this and maybe I'm a bit weird in sharing this! I don't want to be a bore.
So while I don't expect others to dive in, I appreciate the kind words tee hee..

hi all,

going to share this comment here as relevant.. and I'm super excited to see anyone on the LF team mention balance!

MyOnlyHope wrote:

@MyOnlyHope

Thanks again for sharing this MyOnlyHope.
I'll come back to this twitter exchange and reply as soon as I can.
bye!

@DeeBee

Interesting exchange with Matt. Thank you for posting.

As i said in previous post :
If we look at Star wars it
communicates deep thematic message: opposites, darkness and light, good agains evil, Rebell and First Order, revenge and forgiveness must coexist in balance in order to create harmony in the galaxy.
every being has both light and darkness , Kylo infact is unable to find equilibrium he needs someone to help him.
However, Rey and kylo represent the two sides of the force regardless of whether there is light and darkness within them.
and it is precisely for this reason that the two seem prophetic, they are destined to bring balance to the galaxy.

Moreover, Rey is tied to Kylo without knowing it, is linked to the Skywalker / Solo family, before she realized it.
and then we know that Rey will form a new order of Jedi, in her teachings she will surely speak of light and darkness and of coexistence between them.

now how can they find the balance? this is my opinion :
first of all

1) must not be denied that in all of us there is light and darkness, even in the Jedi.

2) we must not suppress a side that we do not like because otherwise we will be in conflict with ourselves like Kylo.

3) Do not see the dark side as a dangerous thing, same as the light.

4) collaboration with each other

It's tough because I feel like I can visualize a complete resolution to this, but it's extremely hard to articulate. I'll try anyway.

The thing about this story is there are two levels that it's operating under. 1) We have Rey and Kylo Ren as symbolic representations of the Light and the Dark in the Force, and 2) We have Rey and Ben, the human beings. As such, I feel like there are two separate solutions to the idea of "balance." There's how the two of them symbolically come together to literally balance the Force, and there's how the two of them literally come together to symbolically achieve balance as individuals. If that makes sense.

The common motif that the story is employing on both levels is sexual awakening. Rey and Kylo Ren, as representations of the Light and the Dark, have already been in scenarios that read as obvious sexual metaphors. At the same time, their interrogation scene, the fight in the woods, their fight against Snoke, their hand touching... if I may be so crude, these scenes have all been the foreplay, the "everything but (the main act)." ie. They haven't metaphorically gone "all the way" yet in the films. Basically, when something happens in the next movie that very, very strongly resembles the actual penetrative act of having sex, that's the moment where actual "balance" will be achieved, literally, in the galaxy. No, I do not know the precise mechanism for this. Does this act "release" some new type of unified Force power to the world? It's likely, but again, I'm not sure of the "how." Regardless, I'm basically 100% sure that this is what we will see.

You'll notice that I haven't said that the literal act of them having sex (ie. making babies) is what achieves balance. While I do believe in the (extremely, extremely, EXTREMELY, almost certain) possibility that Rey and Ben will have a family together, I do NOT think their children will be "force babies" that are some ideal representation of the Light/Dark of the Force come together in human form. Why? Because for Rey and Ben, family is not a means to an end; family is something that they both strongly desire in and of itself. If they have children who are valued for their intrinsic force-connectedness... well, that's basically what Ben Solo was, and look how that turned out! So no, I don't think them literally having children is what achieves the balance. That's separate from the "bigger" solution at play here.

OK, so what about Rey and Ben achieving balance as individuals and also potentially together as a couple? I think most of us here have nailed down the basis of this one. It started with the acknowledgement of the commonality between them (loneliness) which led to compassion, which has the potential to lead to further understanding, etc. Also, to be clear, I don't think balance as individuals is separate from whatever "Force related" solution saves the world or whatever; the Force itself has been a useful tool in facilitating their understanding of each other. It was the Force that allowed Ben to read Rey's mind and see her loneliness, it was the Force that allowed them to touch hands and have Ben see Rey's sad past and Rey see Ben's hopeful future. So whatever causes them to ultimately come together and be fully empathetic towards each other (which will then likely lead to a stronger personal understanding of their faults as individuals and acknowledgement of love for each other as well) will probably be catalyzed by the Force, but it will allow them to achieve balance on a personal level, not as part of the larger mythology of Force Balance or anything like that.

(I will say that I have some general idea that whatever symbolically penetrative act achieves literal balance in the Force will also cause them to have Ben's thoughts, emotions, and experiences - which notably will include all of his darkness as well - permanently ingrained on Rey's consciousness, and vice versa, which would make it very easy for them to understand each other AND be balanced as individuals indeed. But that's just my theory.)

ETA: Wow, I talked about penetration a lot in this post. Sorry? (Or AM I?)

I don't know if this belongs in here or in Reylo BatB thread but fantastic post about Rey and Kylo as animus and anima:

https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/7wzs93/an_interesting_and_psychoanalytical_reading_grid/

Hi all,
The 'SW Canon Material and possible spoilers for IX [Black Diamond]' thread has been incorporated into the general spoilers thread (which is fair enough.. ) but just thought I'd quote below the comment where I shared snippets from the Poe Dameron Comics about LST talking about the Kazerath Device and the dark and light working together [a potential reference to balance]. I'll put put it in a spoiler format so it doesn't take up space.. but I really wanted to be able to find it again without having to hunt in a year and a half when all the glorious spoilers are coming out for IX    ]
Here goes..

Poe Dameron Comics - canon content on LST/Kazerath Device/ Dark & Light Working together:

I'll get back here later to reply to new comments. bye!

What do you guys think about this remark from Matt. Very interesting, because I was sure that there are no "light side" in the Force, it's more The Force (the balance) and corruption of the Force (the dark side). I must say that I don't know anymore what the balance in the Force means.

special_cases wrote:What do you guys think about this remark from Matt. Very interesting, because I was sure that there are no "light side" in the Force, it's more The Force (the balance) and corruption of the Force (the dark side). I must say that I don't know anymore what the balance in the Force means.

@special_cases

Yeah this is not how it originally was. There was the Force and then there was the dark side, which is corruption. There wasn't "too much light", that wasn't really a thing.

special_cases wrote:

I must say that I don't know anymore what the balance in the Force means.

@special_cases

Well, since "the force" is a fictional, abstract concept there is no clear meaning or logical definition.
In my opinion it's deliberately ambiguous and that's totally ok for me. Do we really need everything explained?

For me balance means within themselves and not reduced to individuals... at the same time it's a meta for the circle of life.
Decay (darkness) is needed to create new life (light) and one can't exist without the other.

Can one force sensitive person really shift this really big overall concept of that and "unbalance" it?
I don't know and it's up to the story-tellers to make whatever they want with it. But it will be really hard to search some logical explanation or rule to something that's pretty much magic in space.

I always saw the "dark side" of the force as a meta for the bad thoughts and intent in ourselves and the "light side" as the good intent.

special_cases wrote:What do you guys think about this remark from Matt. Very interesting, because I was sure that there are no "light side" in the Force, it's more The Force (the balance) and corruption of the Force (the dark side). I must say that I don't know anymore what the balance in the Force means.

@special_cases

That’s interesting...that response suggests they may be interpreting the Force more in line with the Mortis arc in CW than just the OT and the concept of what the balance of the Force means is something they’ll focus on in Episode IX through Rey and Kylo.

This is probably too much back and forth, but in that case, perhaps the darkness rose in response to the imbalance of the Jedi, but the dark overtook the light. Then when Anakin destroyed the Sith he brought balance again (Kylo is supposedly a focal point of the light and dark), but Snoke tipped it over by seducing Kylo to the dark, thus necessitating the light to try to bring balance again with Rey. Now Rey and Kylo both exist at the same time to bring balance.

the force wants balance
  in other words :

  equity

  the balance is worth 100
  therefore light is worth 50
and darkness is worth 50

but if, for example, the light is worth 50
and darkness is worth 20 it is clear that the sum of the two will not be 100 but 70  the is no balance

it's a very clear concept thanks for posting it

Kessel wrote:

special_cases wrote:What do you guys think about this remark from Matt. Very interesting, because I was sure that there are no "light side" in the Force, it's more The Force (the balance) and corruption of the Force (the dark side). I must say that I don't know anymore what the balance in the Force means.

@special_cases

That’s interesting...that response suggests they may be interpreting the Force more in line with the Mortis arc in CW than just the OT and the concept of what the balance of the Force means is something they’ll focus on in Episode IX through Rey and Kylo.

This is probably too much back and forth, but in that case, perhaps the darkness rose in response to the imbalance of the Jedi, but the dark overtook the light. Then when Anakin destroyed the Sith he brought balance again (Kylo is supposedly a focal point of the light and dark), but Snoke tipped it over by seducing Kylo to the dark, thus necessitating the light to try to bring balance again with Rey. Now Rey and Kylo both exist at the same time to bring balance.

@Kessel

I thought about Mortis too. If I understand correctly what Matt implies here, then Light and Darkness need to coexist. Interesting how it will play role in Kylo's dark side and curious to see how they explain it in EPIX.

But this is not how it originally was - like @ZioRen already said.

and now I have a question

but did Luke know about this? what light and darkness must coexist?

if yes

it had to do with "the time of the jedi must end?

special_cases wrote:What do you guys think about this remark from Matt. Very interesting, because I was sure that there are no "light side" in the Force, it's more The Force (the balance) and corruption of the Force (the dark side). I must say that I don't know anymore what the balance in the Force means.

@special_cases

Whooooo thanks sooo much for sharing this here special-cases! You've made my day!

I really need to get back to this thread properly!! but it looks to be line with previous musings of mine on page 2. very exciting!

I look forward to coming back here and seeing what everyone thinks soon!! LOL, I need to remind myself there is no hurry right, we have 20 months to discuss this stuff lol.. bye!

ZioRen wrote:

special_cases wrote:What do you guys think about this remark from Matt. Very interesting, because I was sure that there are no "light side" in the Force, it's more The Force (the balance) and corruption of the Force (the dark side). I must say that I don't know anymore what the balance in the Force means.

@special_cases

Yeah this is not how it originally was. There was the Force and then there was the dark side, which is corruption. There wasn't "too much light", that wasn't really a thing.

@ZioRen

Yes, this is new. In movies like ROTJ Luke referred to the light as "the good side", but ever since the ST started you don't hear this "good" kind of talk. Instead it's Leia saying "there's light still in him," Rey saying, "there is no light left in Kylo Ren," Luke saying "powerful light, powerful darkness", and this idea of balance between the two is especially expressed in Rey's "life/death... that creates new life" meditation.

I am no expert, but they have definitely moved to what seems to be a more Eastern view of dark and light, where dark traits aren't in and of themselves evil, but in fact are necessary for the world to work. That it's actually the imbalance of those light and dark traits that create problems.

Hi all! Anytime I see something about balance I add it here..
Here's a quote from the general discussion thread I'll put here for future reference...

Riri wrote:

This is a new addition to the data bank. I find it interesting that they describe Achto Island as "balanced" because theres a harmony between light and dark. So we know what SW's definition of balanced is!

@Riri

Thanks so much for sharing this find Riri!
Yes I think light and dark united, co-existing in harmony - rather than in opposition, is at the heart of balance
harmonious contrasts.. maybe even complimentary contrasts - I haven't seen this really come up anywhere so far.. but with the Rey and Kylo/Ben relationship being a metaphor or an illustration of balance, it could be that we find out the light and dark are complimentary to each other. Anyone able to add to this?

hiya,
Just thought I'd add this here..
This is the star wars databank entry for kyber crystals..


Interesting how a jedi's kyber crystal helps them to 'centre' themselves and find balance. Use of 'centre' here is soo interesting to me...
I think this is referring to personal balance - rather than a community or galaxy wide balance.
I think it also shows how the force uses a person's relationship with their kyber crystal to support balance.. and.. I wonder if Rey's moment of 'finding the force' at the end of TFA here:

was her actually centering herself and finding balance. That was when she truly became powerful and came into her own..
Yes she drew on the dark side from then on in the fight, but maybe this is more accurately framed as drawing on not just the light, but the dark too - i.e. finding balance.

Hi Everyone, Calling all force geeks, balance curious SW fans.. and Mortis fanatics!

I came across an interesting featurette on youtube about the Mortis Arc- Sorry if this has already been shared.. but I thought I'd share here as I believe it is relevant to the overall nature of the force and balance.

Here is the featurette (it was apparently included in the season 3 clone wars box set.). It's basically an interview with Dave Filoni.

I've transcribed it as it doesn't go for long.. and it's super interesting!
Here's the (unbeta'd) transcription:
Dave Filoni interview:
“You will notice on this box set that there is no lengthy documentary on the mortis trilogy. Christian Taylor who wrote the trilogy and myself, we both firmly agree that we should really not answer directly a lot of the questions about mortis. Was that really Qui-Gon Jin who appeared in the (??) cave or not. What did it mean that Ahsoka talks to her older self? Will she ever reach that age? Who was the father? What does it mean now that Anakin is the chosen one? And that he has a better understanding of that?
Ahsoka apparently died and she came back to life does that have any (??)... we have answers to those questions for sure, but if I answer directly what something is, I feel that I’ll be robbing you of the purpose of that arc – which is to make you wonder, it’s to make you challenge certain ideas to ask questions.
There are many mysteries in star wars, there are many mysteries on the planet mortis. I think George really starts to delve back into the mythology that he created about the force itself. And we start to see some of those elements be personified in the father, the son and the daughter. George is highly involved in all aspects of this series, but when we deal directly with the force, Christian Taylor and I feel very strong that work has to come directly from George. A lot of the notes from mortis come from a really old binder that George has, that has his original writings on the what the force is and what makes it up”
Cuts to George Lucas saying in a meeting “ -the core of the force. I mean you’ve got the dark side/ the light side. One is selfless, one is selfish – and we need to keep them in balance.”

Dave Filoni:  “slowly in time, things start to become more clear about mortis. We aren’t done exploring the nature of the force and the kind of bigger mythical questions that we began to ask in the mortis trilogy. Always in motion is the future, and the clone wars future is in motion right now working on future episodes that will continue this rather intriguing arc that George has brought to light after many years.
-end transcription-

[So interesting the hand gestures GL makes when talking of the light and the dark ( @1:39) – reminded me of Snoke’s gestures in the throne room talking about the dark and the light!! ]
Also.. the visual we see when GL talks of keeping them in balance is this:

It struck me that this very similar visually to the Rey and Kylo/Ben lightsaber tug of war. Wow. [wish I could publish an image of that here to compare..]

My take away from this featurette is that when it comes to the force
- there is an overall answer to our questions. The story of SW lets these answers unfold over time.. and part of the experience of the story is working it out - asking questions - so I'm encouraged by this that I'm not wasting my time trying to explore what is known about the force and asking questions..
Unlike the 'who is Snoke' question, 'what is the force?' does have an answer - we are just not going to have it directly spelled out for us.

- I want that red binder!

I can see KK keeping that red binder under lock and key somewhere!!! I believe Disney purchased these original writings on the force and they will not be retconning it. It's all got to come together in the end.. so again, I'm encouraged!

- Super interesting to hear the purpose of Mortis really was not to answer questions - it was to challenge us and get us to start asking questions..
So long as we can eventually work out the answers, I'm happy with this... [how about you?]

- Lastly, 'elements personified in the father, the son and the daughter' - to me this implies Mortis is maybe not to be taken literally, that it is a metaphor... but I would not be surprised to find I'm mistaken

I think the Mortis arc plays the key to what Balance of the Force truly means. 

In the Mortis arc there's a few noticeable connections between the Daughter/Rey and the Son/Kylo as @Deebee shared. The Father also states the Sith are all but many who try to disrupt the Balance. (This could be where Snoke comes in the picture.) An interesting couple things to note too are in Revenge of the Sith we have Yoda tell Obi-Wan and Mace Windu that the Prophecy may have been misread and the bigger is within the Visual Dictionary for The Last Jedi it states "The Jedi prophecy foretold the destruction of the Sith, but it never predicted the end of the dark side", to me this holds our answer. Anakin only fulfilled one half of Balance of the Force. While the other half will be completed with Rey and Kylo coming together in unity of Light and Dark. Rather this includes Anakin's Force Ghost serving as the Father remains open to me.

BB-Rey wrote:I think the Mortis arc plays the key to what Balance of the Force truly means. 

In the Mortis arc there's a few noticeable connections between the Daughter/Rey and the Son/Kylo as @Deebee shared. The Father also states the Sith are all but many who try to disrupt the Balance. (This could be where Snoke comes in the picture.) An interesting couple things to note too are in Revenge of the Sith we have Yoda tell Obi-Wan and Mace Windu that the Prophecy may have been misread and the bigger is within the Visual Dictionary for The Last Jedi it states "The Jedi prophecy foretold the destruction of the Sith, but it never predicted the end of the dark side", to me this holds our answer. Anakin only fulfilled one half of Balance of the Force. While the other half will be completed with Rey and Kylo coming together in unity of Light and Dark. Rather this includes Anakin's Force Ghost serving as the Father remains open to me.

@BB-Rey

that's right, Luke also said that for a while there was balance, but by eliminating the negative part, the positive part grew and so there was an imbalance, the first order, Snoke and kylo...they appeared. As Snoke said: darkness rises and light to meet it, this also applies in the case of light. light rises and darkness to meet it
therefore, as you said, to bring balance there is no need to destroy one of the two sides, but to unite them as one. besides the chosen one ... Anakin has established the balance, as you said, only partially, maybe the will of the Force wanted so,
in that case both Rey and Kylo are the chosen ones to join the two forces and restore balance