Re: The Progression/Development of Reylo

by Dar-ren19 Mon 15 Jan 2018, 1:20 am

rey09 wrote:After thinking it over in my head awhile, I came to conclusion that Kylo is in love with her. The desperation in the "please" and his crazy reaction to her rejection does that for me. As brilliantly posted above though, he doesn't know it's love but he has that feeling attributable to what love should be? I guess it comes down to what love means to people. I always had a hard time defining it but came down to the general idea that you would not be able to go about the rest of your life without this person by your side. I think he definitely sees that in her but he doesn't know what love is and along with his baggage, he doesn't know how to properly express himself or navigate these feelings.

I think Rey deeply cares for him but I don't think she's in love with him (yet!). Kylo only has Rey, but Rey has her whole resistance family. She didn't really want him to the extent that he needed her. That's why I do hope in 9 we will see Rey realize that she misses him solely for their emotional connection. I hope they show this well because Kylo's my fave at this point and I want him to be happy and to be with someone who wants him badly as much as he wants her.

@rey09

I couldn't have said it better. On the dot as far as my take is concerned. To me, his feelings for her were pretty obvious from the fact that he cried while saying "please" as he pleaded with her to stay. His reactions to her have deep roots in the abandonment he'd once felt from his mother and father, and even Luke. And here was a person who'd stuck by him with much less enforcement and inducement. She had willingly come to "save" him, had stuck by him and fought by his side.

AD's phenomenal acting as Kylo Ren is a tour-de-force. The stillness he cultivated in the character, combined with his incredibly expressive eyes and mobile face/lips MADE the film. Much as I love RJ's directorial choices, it's AD who gives the movie its uniquely poignant, dramatic flavor.

by GreyRey Mon 15 Jan 2018, 1:28 am

I think in TFA, Rey felt attraction towards him, and Kylo harbored a crush and admiration. He finally found someone that's his equal, that can relate to his power and loneliness.

In TLJ, Kylo's feelings blossomed into love. Rey, who now understands and also relates to him, began to love him. She may not be totally in love or on the same level as he is, but she's getting there.

I'm not sure if it's unconditional, but I do think it's selfless love. Rey, an enemy of the First Order, williningly went to the Supremacy. She put herself in danger and even confronted Snoke to get Ben. I also think Ben is submissive, whipped. If there was something that Rey needed or wanted (besides turning to the Light...yet), he would do it for her. Like, if she was sick, he'd take care of her. If she asked him to massage her feet, he would. In TFA, he took off his mask to make Rey more comfortable. In TLJ, Ben saved her life because he killed Snoke instead of her. Instead of finishing his training, he saved her. Isn't that an act of selflessness?

Even Anakin defined "compassion" as unconditional love, and Snoke said to Kylo that he felt compassion towards Rey.

Since they're inexperienced, they might not realize what they're feeling or how deep they're in. They may feel the need, desire to be with each other.

Edit: Also there's a lot of love songs on Rey's Spotify playlist. From the songs that I heard, it sounds like she may be in deep or going to be.

by Lily Snape Mon 15 Jan 2018, 1:48 am

snufkin wrote:@MeadowofAshes - 100% what you said and also thank you for giving me the laugh when I need it (going through paperwork Hell at the moment) with the line "Looks like he's about to escort her into their honeymoon suite " for the Throne Room.

The seeds are there for them and the Force sure does continue to push them along towards connecting and working with each other and then breaking them apart when they need a time out to get their sh*t together and grow up a little more. It would've ended up disaster if she'd accepted the "I can show you the ways of the Force" offer. Snoke would've had him kill her and w/out Force Time plus time to suffer over Han's murder, Ben wouldn't have had the strength to go against Snoke. Ditto if she'd gone along with his idea to be galatic prom king and prom queen, all her friends would've been killed, the spark of Resistance against the FO would've died, and that scenario is precarious enough with Hux in play. Offers #1 and #2 would've resulted in tragedy/death for her and likely not much better for him - just like his grandparents in the PT. So them being apart on opposite sides will ideally be the time to "work toward a more mature level of loving each other." And definitely it has to be his decision that he wants to leave the destructive (both to himself and others) path he's been on in order to fulfill their intertwined destiny (and the boner he has so bad for her).

Also I think that there have been two tests for Rey between the two movies where she's been offered something she desperately wanted, but which would've involved compromising her values/hurting the larger cause. #1 was turning down Plutt's offer of 60 portions for BB-8 when she's kept by him on the knife edge of hunger. It was more food than she'd ever seen, but she wasn't going to sell out BB-8, who's her first real friend. That option would've spelled doom for Luke/the Resistance (really, Luke should've been nicer to her), and would've been her doing to BB-8 what her parents did to her (which was traumatic enough that she created an entire false memory around the experience). It's also a show of her strength and character. Another thing is that if she'd accepted Plutt's offer, BB-8 would've been turned over to the FO. Likely Hux would've had the poor sweet little droid turned into scrap metal, Rey would've lived out the rest of her life as a lonely hermit on Jakku, Finn probably would've been killed on Jakku and not helped the Resistance with taking out SKB, Kylo would've continued down the Dark Path until Snoke decided to get rid of him, Han and Leia would've never seen each other again et cetera : (

#2 was obviously turning down Ben, no matter how much she'd started to care about him, was on his side about what had happened to him with Luke, and had him standing there giving her puppy eyes with 'Please.' She's just as hungry for companionship and belonging (a primary reason why she turned down offer #1) as she is for food. But same thing - it would've ended up in disaster for the larger galactic balance of Light/Dark and likely also ended up in death/tragedy for her and Ben the same way things turned out for his grandparents in the PT.

@snufkin

These “Choose Your Own Adventure” outcome analyses are fantastic—thank you!!

As for #2—he does say “Please,” but I think it’s pretty clear that perhaps in contrast to Ben Solo, Kylo Ren is used to getting his own way, which (along with his abandonment issues when Rey leaves) leads to him going off the deep end at the end of the film. “Ready my ship!” is obeyed. “Fire every gun you have on that man!! More!! MORE!!” is obeyed. Heck, even communication orders with peers (rather than underlings) such as “The Supreme Leader is dead” and “Say it. SAY IT” are obeyed. But not “Let go!!”

I think he’s falling in love with her, and vice versa, but that for it to truly be a love story, he will have to accept who she is and grow up enough to put her first. And she will have to accept the fact that even if he turns back to the Light, Ben Solo still had a lifelong struggle with darkness that will always affect who he is.

by Night Huntress Mon 15 Jan 2018, 1:51 am

it's interesting that most of you think Kylo/Ben is more into her then Rey into him. I don't think that- I just think that Kylo is more the drama queen and has less issues showing it.

Rey is very good at hiding her feelings or disguise it with her happy cheery personality.
I mean she basically ships herself to him - and I don't believe her pretext it's just to turn him for the greater good to save the galaxy- not for one second. Of course that's one of the reasons- but when he turns all Mr. Darth Darcy and she cries you see how hurt she is- because of the resistance? for the Galaxy? Yeah, sure! Rolling Eyes

They are both into each other- but have different ways of dealing with it.

I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".

Besides I think Rey's feelings for Kylo/Ben are less acceptable/forbidden - she is the good girl, she shouldn't fall for him...so she tries to bury those feelings - while Kylo don't give a crap... and he is a very emotional, sensitive person. So he expresses his feelings more openly then Rey.

by snufkin Mon 15 Jan 2018, 2:00 am

@Lily Snape - I've compared TFA to Our Mutual Friend because the amount of coincidence in how different characters and locations all coincide in the right place/time/people is downright Dickensian. It all comes down to BB-8 being sent off through the desert and getting captured/yelping for help right within earshot of Rey's hovel. They run into Finn, the MF just happens to be there, and Han picks them up/takes them to Maz et cetera. And if Rey had agreed to either of Kylo's proposals, it would've ended badly for the both of them.

You are right that in his Kylo Ren mode, he's used to barking orders and being obeyed/catered to because of both the legacy and scary Force powers. But with Rey and Snoke, he's submissive, albeit for very different reasons. And the asking "Please" is somewhat different than his whole cliff proposal. Both situations he looks like the kid who just nervously asked his crush to Space Prom. But the 2nd time he

by GreyRey Mon 15 Jan 2018, 2:24 am

Night Huntress wrote:I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".

@Night Huntress

I disagree. I think Ben is still there somewhere, changed but still there. He was there when he chose not to kill Leia, in the hut with Rey after she went in the cave, and in the throne killing Snoke and the guards. He even glanced at her as they fought.

You are right, though, about him never being who he was before again. I think Kylo is a part of Ben. He's conflicted of staying in the Dark Side as Kylo or being good as Ben. Two men in one body fights for control.

by Saracene Mon 15 Jan 2018, 2:47 am

Personally I see Kylo Ren as the persona Ben Solo adopted that's all about power and ambition. Kinda like, I don't know, a role/character one might adopt at work? Except that Kylo doesn't have any life outside of his "job" where he might discard it, so it's on pretty much all the time.

From that perspective, the idea that Rey must learn to love and accept both Ben and Kylo doesn't make much sense to me, because once Ben leaves the FO and his ambition to rule the galaxy, he'll automatically cease to be Kylo Ren. That Rey rejects his gloved "Kylo Ren" hand when he offers her the galaxy and ultimate power is IMO telling.

by SoloSideCousin Mon 15 Jan 2018, 2:56 am

Night Huntress wrote:it's interesting that most of you think Kylo/Ben is more into her then Rey into him. I don't think that- I just think that Kylo is more the drama queen and has less issues showing it.

Rey is very good at hiding her feelings or disguise it with her happy cheery personality.
I mean she basically ships herself to him - and I don't believe her pretext it's just to turn him for the greater good to save the galaxy- not for one second. Of course that's one of the reasons- but when he turns all Mr. Darth Darcy and she cries you see how hurt she is- because of the resistance? for the Galaxy? Yeah, sure!

They are both into each other- but have different ways of dealing with it.

I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".

Besides I think Rey's feelings for Kylo/Ben are less acceptable/forbidden - she is the good girl, she shouldn't fall for him...so she tries to bury those feelings - while Kylo don't give a crap... and he is a very emotional, sensitive person. So he expresses his feelings more openly then Rey.

@Night Huntress

I think the bolded is a huge factor with Rey. She is falling in love with Kylo/Ben, but she only really wants to fall for Ben, or her vision of Ben. Ben is the good one, worthy of saving. Kylo is the bad one, the one she is "supposed to" hate. Kylo is the one that other people fear and hate. Kylo is the one who could never been acceptable to her friends in her mind. Part of the reason she said "no" to him in the throne room because that "Kylo" part of him started to come out.

But unless they go with a full-on "he's broken from the evil spell" like @ISeeanIsland discussed earlier, Ben is Kylo, and Kylo is Ben. He certainly doesn't need to be in nervous breakdown mode, nor fall back to the mindset Snoke cultivated in him, nor be in the toxic, destructive fear Luke created in him for the rest of his life, but he is a damaged dude. And he is both dark and light. He will never fit that perfect Jedi box. He will never be a easy-going Finn. He will never be "easy". He will always be complex

However, she can be with that adoring man that she touched hands with in the hut. She can feel what he made her feel. But to feel it always and be with him, she needs to accept that whatever name she or anyone else calls him, that man who adores her will never fit neatly into any category and will never be fully "acceptable" in any kind of general way.

by Let The Past Die Mon 15 Jan 2018, 3:37 am

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:it's interesting that most of you think Kylo/Ben is more into her then Rey into him. I don't think that- I just think that Kylo is more the drama queen and has less issues showing it.

Rey is very good at hiding her feelings or disguise it with her happy cheery personality.
I mean she basically ships herself to him - and I don't believe her pretext it's just to turn him for the greater good to save the galaxy- not for one second. Of course that's one of the reasons- but when he turns all Mr. Darth Darcy and she cries you see how hurt she is- because of the resistance? for the Galaxy? Yeah, sure!

They are both into each other- but have different ways of dealing with it.

I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".

Besides I think Rey's feelings for Kylo/Ben are less acceptable/forbidden - she is the good girl, she shouldn't fall for him...so she tries to bury those feelings - while Kylo don't give a crap... and he is a very emotional, sensitive person. So he expresses his feelings more openly then Rey.
@Night Huntress

I think the bolded is a huge factor with Rey. She is falling in love with Kylo/Ben, but she only really wants to fall for Ben, or her vision of Ben. Ben is the good one, worthy of saving. Kylo is the bad one, the one she is "supposed to" hate. Kylo is the one that other people fear and hate. Kylo is the one who could never been acceptable to her friends in her mind. Part of the reason she said "no" to him in the throne room because that "Kylo" part of him started to come out.

But unless they go with a full-on "he's broken from the evil spell" like @ISeeanIsland discussed earlier, Ben is Kylo, and Kylo is Ben. He certainly doesn't need to be in nervous breakdown mode, nor fall back to the mindset Snoke cultivated in him, nor be in the toxic, destructive fear Luke created in him for the rest of his life, but he is a damaged dude. And he is both dark and light. He will never fit that perfect Jedi box. He will never be a easy-going Finn. He will never be "easy". He will always be complex

However, she can be with that adoring man that she touched hands with in the hut. She can feel what he made her feel. But to feel it always and be with him, she needs to accept that whatever name she or anyone else calls him, that man who adores her will never fit neatly into any category and will never be fully "acceptable" in any kind of general way.

@SoloSideCousin

A thought has just struck me when they call each other by their names. To Rey, she called him Kylo, up until the elevator scene when she called him Ben (correct me if I'm wrong and she called him Ben before this) he responded to her when he heard his name. He calls her Rey in the elevator scene too, and then they both mention their names in the throne scene. But what interested me, is how we have Kylo and Ben, I've subconsciouly thought of Rey as, 'The Girl' as well as Rey, and it's interesting after Kylo wakes up and Hux asks what has happened he goes back to saying 'The Girl' killed Snoke. Which does fit the scene.
Just went off thread there, just thought I'd note it as it stood out to me, and reading the above quotes reminded me of it.

by Starliteprism Mon 15 Jan 2018, 3:50 am

Saracene wrote:I don't think either of them could truly recognise and pin down their feelings for each at this stage, but yeah I'd say that Kylo is hopelessly in love.

Rey is harder to gauge, because the film obscures some crucial points and moments. We don't know what exactly she saw in her hand-holding vision that got her so invested, and we missed out completely on the immediate aftermath of the throne room scene. Her reaction to Kylo in their last scene is the only glimpse of where her head's at, and it's still something of a stone-faced reaction.

@Saracene

Wax - Bridge to your heart

I can imagine Kylo Ben singing this to Rey. rabbit

by Starliteprism Mon 15 Jan 2018, 3:53 am

Let The Past Die wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:it's interesting that most of you think Kylo/Ben is more into her then Rey into him. I don't think that- I just think that Kylo is more the drama queen and has less issues showing it.

Rey is very good at hiding her feelings or disguise it with her happy cheery personality.
I mean she basically ships herself to him - and I don't believe her pretext it's just to turn him for the greater good to save the galaxy- not for one second. Of course that's one of the reasons- but when he turns all Mr. Darth Darcy and she cries you see how hurt she is- because of the resistance? for the Galaxy? Yeah, sure!

They are both into each other- but have different ways of dealing with it.

I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".

Besides I think Rey's feelings for Kylo/Ben are less acceptable/forbidden - she is the good girl, she shouldn't fall for him...so she tries to bury those feelings - while Kylo don't give a crap... and he is a very emotional, sensitive person. So he expresses his feelings more openly then Rey.
@Night Huntress

I think the bolded is a huge factor with Rey. She is falling in love with Kylo/Ben, but she only really wants to fall for Ben, or her vision of Ben. Ben is the good one, worthy of saving. Kylo is the bad one, the one she is "supposed to" hate. Kylo is the one that other people fear and hate. Kylo is the one who could never been acceptable to her friends in her mind. Part of the reason she said "no" to him in the throne room because that "Kylo" part of him started to come out.

But unless they go with a full-on "he's broken from the evil spell" like @ISeeanIsland discussed earlier, Ben is Kylo, and Kylo is Ben. He certainly doesn't need to be in nervous breakdown mode, nor fall back to the mindset Snoke cultivated in him, nor be in the toxic, destructive fear Luke created in him for the rest of his life, but he is a damaged dude. And he is both dark and light. He will never fit that perfect Jedi box. He will never be a easy-going Finn. He will never be "easy". He will always be complex

However, she can be with that adoring man that she touched hands with in the hut. She can feel what he made her feel. But to feel it always and be with him, she needs to accept that whatever name she or anyone else calls him, that man who adores her will never fit neatly into any category and will never be fully "acceptable" in any kind of general way.
@SoloSideCousin

A thought has just struck me when they call each other by their names. To Rey, she called him Kylo, up until the elevator scene when she called him Ben (correct me if I'm wrong and she called him Ben before this) he responded to her when he heard his name. He calls her Rey in the elevator scene too, and then they both mention their names in the throne scene. But what interested me, is how we have Kylo and Ben, I've subconsciouly thought of Rey as, 'The Girl' as well as Rey, and it's interesting after Kylo wakes up and Hux asks what has happened he goes back to saying 'The Girl' killed Snoke. Which does fit the scene.
Just went off thread there, just thought I'd note it as it stood out to me, and reading the above quotes reminded me of it.

@Let The Past Die

Rey said to Luke after the Hut scene that Ben Solo will turn.

by Let The Past Die Mon 15 Jan 2018, 4:00 am

Starliteprism wrote:
Let The Past Die wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:it's interesting that most of you think Kylo/Ben is more into her then Rey into him. I don't think that- I just think that Kylo is more the drama queen and has less issues showing it.

Rey is very good at hiding her feelings or disguise it with her happy cheery personality.
I mean she basically ships herself to him - and I don't believe her pretext it's just to turn him for the greater good to save the galaxy- not for one second. Of course that's one of the reasons- but when he turns all Mr. Darth Darcy and she cries you see how hurt she is- because of the resistance? for the Galaxy? Yeah, sure!

They are both into each other- but have different ways of dealing with it.

I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".

Besides I think Rey's feelings for Kylo/Ben are less acceptable/forbidden - she is the good girl, she shouldn't fall for him...so she tries to bury those feelings - while Kylo don't give a crap... and he is a very emotional, sensitive person. So he expresses his feelings more openly then Rey.
@Night Huntress

I think the bolded is a huge factor with Rey. She is falling in love with Kylo/Ben, but she only really wants to fall for Ben, or her vision of Ben. Ben is the good one, worthy of saving. Kylo is the bad one, the one she is "supposed to" hate. Kylo is the one that other people fear and hate. Kylo is the one who could never been acceptable to her friends in her mind. Part of the reason she said "no" to him in the throne room because that "Kylo" part of him started to come out.

But unless they go with a full-on "he's broken from the evil spell" like @ISeeanIsland discussed earlier, Ben is Kylo, and Kylo is Ben. He certainly doesn't need to be in nervous breakdown mode, nor fall back to the mindset Snoke cultivated in him, nor be in the toxic, destructive fear Luke created in him for the rest of his life, but he is a damaged dude. And he is both dark and light. He will never fit that perfect Jedi box. He will never be a easy-going Finn. He will never be "easy". He will always be complex

However, she can be with that adoring man that she touched hands with in the hut. She can feel what he made her feel. But to feel it always and be with him, she needs to accept that whatever name she or anyone else calls him, that man who adores her will never fit neatly into any category and will never be fully "acceptable" in any kind of general way.
@SoloSideCousin

A thought has just struck me when they call each other by their names. To Rey, she called him Kylo, up until the elevator scene when she called him Ben (correct me if I'm wrong and she called him Ben before this) he responded to her when he heard his name. He calls her Rey in the elevator scene too, and then they both mention their names in the throne scene. But what interested me, is how we have Kylo and Ben, I've subconsciouly thought of Rey as, 'The Girl' as well as Rey, and it's interesting after Kylo wakes up and Hux asks what has happened he goes back to saying 'The Girl' killed Snoke. Which does fit the scene.
Just went off thread there, just thought I'd note it as it stood out to me, and reading the above quotes reminded me of it.
@Let The Past Die

Rey said to Luke after the Hut scene that Ben Solo will turn.

@Starliteprism

Ahh I couldn't quite remember, but yes I recall it now, a notable moment then after the hand scene. Thanks for clarifying, I'll be glad when the DVD comes, as I'm forgetting little things, or not trusting my memory so much.

by Night Huntress Mon 15 Jan 2018, 4:02 am

GreyRey wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".
@Night Huntress

I disagree. I think Ben is still there somewhere, changed but still there. He was there when he chose not to kill Leia, in the hut with Rey after she went in the cave, and in the throne killing Snoke and the guards. He even glanced at her as they fought.

You are right, though, about him never being who he was before again. I think Kylo is a part of Ben. He's conflicted of staying in the Dark Side as Kylo or being good as Ben. Two men in one body fights for control.

@GreyRey

Well, you can see it that way- but for me it's just two different names for the same person. Separating Kylo from Ben or speaking of them as two different persons feels wrong to me. Like he has a personality disorder which is not the case.
I guess you can of course see the name "Kylo" as an alias for his darker side.... Confus

I don't think he even cares much for that name- he never corrects her when she calls him Ben... Nope

Anyway- Rey wants an idealized version of him... he needs to change- absolutely! But he'll never be that wholesome Jedi-Prince...

by SoloSideCousin Mon 15 Jan 2018, 4:39 am

Night Huntress wrote:
GreyRey wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".
@Night Huntress

I disagree. I think Ben is still there somewhere, changed but still there. He was there when he chose not to kill Leia, in the hut with Rey after she went in the cave, and in the throne killing Snoke and the guards. He even glanced at her as they fought.

You are right, though, about him never being who he was before again. I think Kylo is a part of Ben. He's conflicted of staying in the Dark Side as Kylo or being good as Ben. Two men in one body fights for control.
@GreyRey

Well, you can see it that way- but for me it's just two different names for the same person. Separating Kylo from Ben or speaking of them as two different persons feels wrong to me. Like he has a personality disorder which is not the case.
I guess you can of course see the name "Kylo" as an alias for his darker side....
I don't think he even cares much for that name- he never corrects her when she calls him Ben...

Anyway- Rey wants an idealized version of him... he needs to change- absolutely! But he'll never be that wholesome Jedi-Prince...

@Night Huntress

I, at times, have seen Kylo as a protective persona, as a persona that could deal with things that Ben couldn't. But even then, Ben created Kylo, so Kylo has to be a part of Ben.

Also, a lot of Jungian theory regarding the shadow has been embedded in the ST. (RJ confirmed this). And if you think about it, both of his master's made him force down (shadowfy --- yes, I just invented that word, lol) half of himself.

Luke was terrified of the dark side to such an extent that Rey's sexuality (the cave) is made "dark" according to Luke. I doubt he was any better with Ben's emotional and volatile nature, which would only be magnified by Snoke's predatory influence.

So with Luke the dark had to be buried. With Snoke the light had to be buried. And this is happening to a kid who might be force focal point of dark and light. The kid was never meant to be so one sided. And the more you bury one side, the more powerful and destructive it can be when it comes to the surface. IMO Ben's darker side became much more extreme due to this burying, and when Luke contemplated killing Ben, that mangled dark shadow side came out in full force as Kylo Freaking Ren, lol.

From there the light side was buried, and now Rey is waking that side up. But he is still unbalanced, hence his heartbreak meltdown. It's good that his light is coming to the surface, but IMO his dark cannot be completely buried again. Ben needs to integrate both sides into a fully realized self.

IMO, had he not had to live in such extreme ways under his masters, there would be no unmanageable shadow self. He would have integrated naturally. He might not be as sweet as pie, but he could love, feel happiness and certainly wouldn't have killed his father IMO.

by Piper Maru Mon 15 Jan 2018, 5:28 am

@snufkin - I think A LOT about the RPG-ish "choose your own adventure" element of the sequel trilogy. One of the reasons the story is so engaging is because even the most irrelevant character is at the right place in the right moment, and without them, everything would go to s***. And the contrast between Kylo and Rey is even clear from this perspective - he makes all the bad choices (letting Finn go, kidnapping a girl instead of going for the droid, letting the girl escape, killing his father, fighting while injured, hiding his Force Skype girlfriend from his master, becoming Supreme Leader, fighting Luke Skywalker on his own etc) while Rey makes all the good choices (saving BB-8, finding the saber, using the Force against Kylo, going after Luke, trying to save Ben Solo etc). Their random choices eventually make them cross paths, and I think it's beautiful.

As for the OP question: I think it doesn't really matter if they're already in love or beginning to fall in love. If we look at their relationship from a literary perspective, they're already in a romance. If we look at it from our personal romantic ideas, Kylo is the one desperately in love and Rey is the one who doesn't know what she feels. In the movie, specifically, I think they both feel *something* so pure and transcendental and they don't even know what it is.

by lauvamp Mon 15 Jan 2018, 7:01 am

Mmmm interesting topic!

@Piper Maru

Agree! I also think they know there is a feeling towards each other but can't define that. It's too new and confusing for them, if me consider their virgin hearts + inner conflicts + all the mess around (FO, Resistance, the war, the force, the dark side, the light, friends, family, anger etc) I think it's too soon to deal with all of that correctly. BUT the feeling is strong enough to make Rey cross the galaxy to rescue his soul, and to make Kylo ask her to join him "please".

One thing I liked is, both of them don't hide their mutual interest.

by PalmettoBlue Mon 15 Jan 2018, 9:57 am

SoloSideCousin wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:
GreyRey wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".
@Night Huntress

I disagree. I think Ben is still there somewhere, changed but still there. He was there when he chose not to kill Leia, in the hut with Rey after she went in the cave, and in the throne killing Snoke and the guards. He even glanced at her as they fought.

You are right, though, about him never being who he was before again. I think Kylo is a part of Ben. He's conflicted of staying in the Dark Side as Kylo or being good as Ben. Two men in one body fights for control.
@GreyRey

Well, you can see it that way- but for me it's just two different names for the same person. Separating Kylo from Ben or speaking of them as two different persons feels wrong to me. Like he has a personality disorder which is not the case.
I guess you can of course see the name "Kylo" as an alias for his darker side....
I don't think he even cares much for that name- he never corrects her when she calls him Ben...

Anyway- Rey wants an idealized version of him... he needs to change- absolutely! But he'll never be that wholesome Jedi-Prince...
@Night Huntress

I, at times, have seen Kylo as a protective persona, as a persona that could deal with things that Ben couldn't. But even then, Ben created Kylo, so Kylo has to be a part of Ben.

Also, a lot of Jungian theory regarding the shadow has been embedded in the ST. (RJ confirmed this). And if you think about it, both of his master's made him force down (shadowfy --- yes, I just invented that word, lol) half of himself.

Luke was terrified of the dark side to such an extent that Rey's sexuality (the cave) is made "dark" according to Luke. I doubt he was any better with Ben's emotional and volatile nature, which would only be magnified by Snoke's predatory influence.

So with Luke the dark had to be buried. With Snoke the light had to be buried. And this is happening to a kid who might be force focal point of dark and light. The kid was never meant to be so one sided. And the more you bury one side, the more powerful and destructive it can be when it comes to the surface. IMO Ben's darker side became much more extreme due to this burying, and when Luke contemplated killing Ben, that mangled dark shadow side came out in full force as Kylo Freaking Ren, lol.

From there the light side was buried, and now Rey is waking that side up. But he is still unbalanced, hence his heartbreak meltdown. It's good that his light is coming to the surface, but IMO his dark cannot be completely buried again. Ben needs to integrate both sides into a fully realized self.

IMO, had he not had to live in such extreme ways under his masters, there would be no unmanageable shadow self. He would have integrated naturally. He might not be as sweet as pie, but he could love, feel happiness and certainly wouldn't have killed his father IMO.

@SoloSideCousin

^^^^^ THIS!

And reading this makes me think about @Ohtze's Kill the King meta. I'm still doing research to see if I am on board with the Usurper line, but I do agree that the worst thing that could have happened to this kid was to be shipped away from his mother as Ohtze posits.
I feel for Leia, I really do. Han didn't understand, and since she said in the movie that she never told him the problems, you really can't blame him for not knowing. But he was an absentee father, so there's that. I know they loved their child, but sending him away stunted him emotionally in so many ways.

Ohtze also compares Rey to the Holy Mother archetype - and she does look a bit like a younger version of his mother.

I think do think Rey is in love with him, but I think she's concentrating on the Ben Solo side of the equation. I don't think the innocent kid who was asleep when his uncle tried to kill him is coming back. He can't. Everyone is changed by circumstances - character development and all that. And she has to accept that, much like Ben has to accept that Rey isn't going to be some sort of dark Empress.

Oh and speaking of emotional bags - Rey has massive amounts of emotional baggage, but she has a much better mask than Ben Solo. Once he smashes that physical mask, he doesn't have one at all. Hers is a wide smile, open eyes, and a friendly demeanor.

In short, we can see that he loves her. She hides it better than he does, but I think this is a reciprocal relationship. They both have some realizations to make.

by Starliteprism Mon 15 Jan 2018, 10:19 am

Saracene wrote:Personally I see Kylo Ren as the persona Ben Solo adopted that's all about power and ambition. Kinda like, I don't know, a role/character one might adopt at work? Except that Kylo doesn't have any life outside of his "job" where he might discard it, so it's on pretty much all the time.

From that perspective, the idea that Rey must learn to love and accept both Ben and Kylo doesn't make much sense to me, because once Ben leaves the FO and his ambition to rule the galaxy, he'll automatically cease to be Kylo Ren. That Rey rejects his gloved "Kylo Ren" hand when he offers her the galaxy and ultimate power is IMO telling.

@Saracene

Luke did say, "Nobody is ever really gone." And that can relate to both Ben Solo and Han...

by **whisperingwillow** Mon 15 Jan 2018, 10:53 am

PalmettoBlue wrote:
SoloSideCousin wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:
GreyRey wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".
@Night Huntress

I disagree. I think Ben is still there somewhere, changed but still there. He was there when he chose not to kill Leia, in the hut with Rey after she went in the cave, and in the throne killing Snoke and the guards. He even glanced at her as they fought.

You are right, though, about him never being who he was before again. I think Kylo is a part of Ben. He's conflicted of staying in the Dark Side as Kylo or being good as Ben. Two men in one body fights for control.
@GreyRey

Well, you can see it that way- but for me it's just two different names for the same person. Separating Kylo from Ben or speaking of them as two different persons feels wrong to me. Like he has a personality disorder which is not the case.
I guess you can of course see the name "Kylo" as an alias for his darker side....
I don't think he even cares much for that name- he never corrects her when she calls him Ben...

Anyway- Rey wants an idealized version of him... he needs to change- absolutely! But he'll never be that wholesome Jedi-Prince...
@Night Huntress

I, at times, have seen Kylo as a protective persona, as a persona that could deal with things that Ben couldn't. But even then, Ben created Kylo, so Kylo has to be a part of Ben.

Also, a lot of Jungian theory regarding the shadow has been embedded in the ST. (RJ confirmed this). And if you think about it, both of his master's made him force down (shadowfy --- yes, I just invented that word, lol) half of himself.

Luke was terrified of the dark side to such an extent that Rey's sexuality (the cave) is made "dark" according to Luke. I doubt he was any better with Ben's emotional and volatile nature, which would only be magnified by Snoke's predatory influence.

So with Luke the dark had to be buried. With Snoke the light had to be buried. And this is happening to a kid who might be force focal point of dark and light. The kid was never meant to be so one sided. And the more you bury one side, the more powerful and destructive it can be when it comes to the surface. IMO Ben's darker side became much more extreme due to this burying, and when Luke contemplated killing Ben, that mangled dark shadow side came out in full force as Kylo Freaking Ren, lol.

From there the light side was buried, and now Rey is waking that side up. But he is still unbalanced, hence his heartbreak meltdown. It's good that his light is coming to the surface, but IMO his dark cannot be completely buried again. Ben needs to integrate both sides into a fully realized self.

IMO, had he not had to live in such extreme ways under his masters, there would be no unmanageable shadow self. He would have integrated naturally. He might not be as sweet as pie, but he could love, feel happiness and certainly wouldn't have killed his father IMO.
@SoloSideCousin

^^^^^ THIS!

And reading this makes me think about @Ohtze's Kill the King meta. I'm still doing research to see if I am on board with the Usurper line, but I do agree that the worst thing that could have happened to this kid was to be shipped away from his mother as Ohtze posits.
I feel for Leia, I really do. Han didn't understand, and since she said in the movie that she never told him the problems, you really can't blame him for not knowing. But he was an absentee father, so there's that. I know they loved their child, but sending him away stunted him emotionally in so many ways.

Ohtze also compares Rey to the Holy Mother archetype - and she does look a bit like a younger version of his mother.

I think do think Rey is in love with him, but I think she's concentrating on the Ben Solo side of the equation. I don't think the innocent kid who was asleep when his uncle tried to kill him is coming back. He can't. Everyone is changed by circumstances - character development and all that. And she has to accept that, much like Ben has to accept that Rey isn't going to be some sort of dark Empress.

Oh and speaking of emotional bags - Rey has massive amounts of emotional baggage, but she has a much better mask than Ben Solo. Once he smashes that physical mask, he doesn't have one at all. Hers is a wide smile, open eyes, and a friendly demeanor.

In short, we can see that he loves her. She hides it better than he does, but I think this is a reciprocal relationship. They both have some realizations to make.

@PalmettoBlue

My greatest fear with Carrie's death is we don't get a satisfying conclusion to Leia and Ben's relationship. I feel it is vital the audience know and understand that relationship whether Leia is on the screen or not. I know we won't get to see them face to face but I feel it is vital that both Rey and the audience learn more about that relationship.

Sorry for the side note in this thread but I just wanted to say that with regards to your post.

by snufkin Mon 15 Jan 2018, 12:03 pm

@Piper Maru That's a truly inspired signature gif! Have you ever read Arthur Schnitzler's La Ronde? Which is about sex, not space wizards. But I thought of it after seeing TFA because it's the same principle of interlocking scenes and characters where it's a Round Robin of characters/themes getting passed from one another. The entire is about getting the young characters to meet and to re-unite the old characters with the map key in a droid as the pre-text. And yes, if circumstances had been different, things would've ended badly for everyone because of Rey and BB-8's missed connection :'(

by Lily Snape Mon 15 Jan 2018, 12:29 pm

Night Huntress wrote:
GreyRey wrote:
Night Huntress wrote:I agree that Rey's issue is that she is in love with Ben Solo- but the Ben Solo she wants doesn't exist anymore. Ben is Kylo - I never really separated the two. She has to accept that first... he'll never be that innocent boy again. Even if he turns "good" or rather "grey".
@Night Huntress

I disagree. I think Ben is still there somewhere, changed but still there. He was there when he chose not to kill Leia, in the hut with Rey after she went in the cave, and in the throne killing Snoke and the guards. He even glanced at her as they fought.

You are right, though, about him never being who he was before again. I think Kylo is a part of Ben. He's conflicted of staying in the Dark Side as Kylo or being good as Ben. Two men in one body fights for control.
@GreyRey

Well, you can see it that way- but for me it's just two different names for the same person. Separating Kylo from Ben or speaking of them as two different persons feels wrong to me. Like he has a personality disorder which is not the case.
I guess you can of course see the name "Kylo" as an alias for his darker side....
I don't think he even cares much for that name- he never corrects her when she calls him Ben...

Anyway- Rey wants an idealized version of him... he needs to change- absolutely! But he'll never be that wholesome Jedi-Prince...

@Night Huntress

Maybe this is because I work in healthcare, but I think that if he turns back to the Light side, he will basically be like a recovering addict or alcoholic in a sense. The “recovering” part is always present tense. We’ve been told that he was born with this balance of Light and Dark, which Snoke valued and manipulated. Just like there’s a genetic predisposition to something like alcoholism—not fair, but neither is the predisposition to cancer or diabetes—it’s part of who he is, not just part of his past, not something he can just deny or discard. So Rey would absolutely be taking a chance on him if she chooses to be with him, but then, that’s something that people in our non-GFFA world do all the time. And having a fair amount of alcoholism in my family, including older relatives who haven’t succumbed to it in decades, I can say that the possibility of a happy and fulfilled life for both of them is definitely there.

I should add: obviously there are people who are perfectly happy being on the Dark side—think Palpatine—but clearly Kylo isn’t one of them. For some characters in this world, it’s something they embrace. But he’s miserable and trying to find his way between his two sides.

by Cowgirlsamurai Mon 15 Jan 2018, 12:35 pm

snufkin wrote:@Piper Maru That's a truly inspired signature gif! Have you ever read Arthur Schnitzler's La Ronde? Which is about sex, not space wizards. But I thought of it after seeing TFA because it's the same principle of interlocking scenes and characters where it's a Round Robin of characters/themes getting passed from one another. The entire is about getting the young characters to meet and to re-unite the old characters with the map key in a droid as the pre-text. And yes, if circumstances had been different, things would've ended badly for everyone because of Rey and BB-8's missed connection :'(

@snufkin

I can’t stop thinking of Rey and Kylo as “sexy space wizards” now Smile

by snufkin Mon 15 Jan 2018, 1:03 pm

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:
snufkin wrote:@Piper Maru That's a truly inspired signature gif! Have you ever read Arthur Schnitzler's La Ronde? Which is about sex, not space wizards. But I thought of it after seeing TFA because it's the same principle of interlocking scenes and characters where it's a Round Robin of characters/themes getting passed from one another. The entire is about getting the young characters to meet and to re-unite the old characters with the map key in a droid as the pre-text. And yes, if circumstances had been different, things would've ended badly for everyone because of Rey and BB-8's missed connection :'(
@snufkin

I can’t stop thinking of Rey and Kylo as “sexy space wizards” now

@Cowgirlsamurai

Supa Sexy Space Wizards! I mean, really, how many of their scenes together are coded as psychosexual or straight out intercourse? La Ronde definitely fits for those two characters.

by Piper Maru Mon 15 Jan 2018, 1:11 pm

snufkin wrote:@Piper Maru That's a truly inspired signature gif! Have you ever read Arthur Schnitzler's La Ronde? Which is about sex, not space wizards. But I thought of it after seeing TFA because it's the same principle of interlocking scenes and characters where it's a Round Robin of characters/themes getting passed from one another. The entire is about getting the young characters to meet and to re-unite the old characters with the map key in a droid as the pre-text. And yes, if circumstances had been different, things would've ended badly for everyone because of Rey and BB-8's missed connection :'(

@snufkin

I'm looking for it right now. Sounds like my type of book! Thank you for the rec Smile

by snufkin Mon 15 Jan 2018, 1:19 pm

@Piper Maru A long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I used to be fluent in German and took several classes about the Austro-Hungarian "fin de siècle and the Weimar Republic. I definitely thought of the narrative structure of La Ronde for TFA and the Throne Room for TLJ looks like something out of a Hugo Von Hoffmanstahl story.

by Sponsored content