The Progression/Development of Reylo

Kessel wrote:

Saracene wrote:I was really confused about the whole vision/parents thing, but after the third watch I'm pretty confident that "Rey I saw who your parents are" is not a separate tangent from Kylo's earlier statements, it's all one block. I think he also backs it up later when he brings up her parents as the main argument; "your parents were trash so just let go and build a new future with me because you have no reason to cling to the past".

I really doubt that Rey saw anything in the Red Room and especially Snoke's death. She was clearly losing her nerve there when she's kneeling before Ben and Snoke urges him to kill her; her soft pleading "Ben?" seemed to indicate that her faith was wavering for a second. If she knew it was all a ruse she wouldn't react that way. Also, I'm not really getting a sense from either of them that they're going, wow this is all happening just as I saw it.

I also couldn't figure out if Kylo knew that killing Rey would be what Snoke would want him to do. Last time they discussed her in TFA it sounded like Snoke was really interested in her powers and was all, bring her to meee. But in TLJ, he just wants to get the location of Luke from her and then it's like, eh my apprentice can kill her now. So maybe Kylo was just playing it by ear the whole time.

@Saracene

I agree that Kylo's vision was Rey's parents and he assumed this information would make her turn because it meant she was abandoned by them in the worst way possible. He assumed Rey would react like he would to that information, but he was wrong.

Rey's vision is still kind of a mystery, but it affected her rather profoundly based on her reaction and the fact she immediately went to him. I agree she seemed worried when she whispered, "Ben?" which seems to imply that scene wasn't going exactly the way she saw it, otherwise why be fearful at all?

I think Kylo probably suspected it was possible Snoke would have him kill Rey since they knew she was the awakening. He didn't look happy when she arrived all dolled up in her shipping box. In the throne room, when Snoke said he bridged their minds and why he did it, I think Kylo definitely knew Snoke would have him kill Rey. I also think Snoke knew their feelings for each other were genuine because he told Rey he would have her killed "with the cruelest stroke."

I thought it was interesting how Snoke read Rey's mind and he didn't seem impressed at all. He didn't see anything he felt worth keeping her for and he didn't seem to see anything he felt was extraordinarily special.  I don't know if it was just his hubris, but it was fascinating and unexpected.

@Kessel

I viewed it as Snoke reading her mind and realizing there was no way she would turn and be of use to him. And really, that’s the villainy thing right there—people are only of interest to him as long as they are of use, as he comes right out and says about Hux (and as Han warns his son.). She served her function in delivering to Snoke the location of Luke Skywalker, and now she could be discarded.

No one is denying of what they want from Reylo at the end of IX, the kiss or not to kiss thread shows that

But I'm curious as to where you think Kylo and Rey are in their wonderfully complicated relationship come connection.

I'm finding it refreshing to find that ones have different views of what Reylo means to them, scattered through the threads as I read. Some feel they are both in love already, some feel that love is just burgeoning, and many are somewhere in the middle.

I'll preface my thoughts with I found Reylo after TLJ , I enjoyed TFA, I enjoyed the dynamic of Rey and Finn, I didn't 'ship' them but wouldn't have been against them as a couple. I will add this whole shipping thing is new to me, I am an original ancient that saw the OT at the Grand old age of 9, and crushed heavily on Han, and I loved Han and Leia together who knew I was shipping back then. Anyway I digress, Kylo as a character was intriguing to me, but I just didn't spot him and Rey, although I was aware he treated her differently and I loved their snow fight scene. So I feel I'm lagging behind a little, from those who were super aware about it in TFA.

So I went into TLJ, thinking I'd see more of Finn and Rey well we all know how that turned out I came out a huge Kylo fan, and in particular wanting Rey and Kylo to be together, found the term Reylo and well found my way here.

Now I'm getting to the point of the thread, so far I feel Kylo has the feelings of love for Rey, but does he know what love is? She has yet to realise what her feelings are, she definitely has feelings, and we've seen her jump the most in emotional understanding, that she's on the cusp of falling in love, but I'm not quite sure she's quite there yet. It has helped reading everyone's analysis it's helped me review scenes and see things I hadn't seen before.

I've rewatched TFA, to see what I missed and see what so many of you saw ( I'm still cross with myself I didn't pick it up) I've read the novelization of TFA and although not canon, it's helped me get a better understanding of their thoughts.

So I'd really like to know all you lovely Reylo's where you feel Rey and Kylo are at ( I know he's been sent to sleep on the couch for the moment) overall, and your reasoning, perhaps it's just a gut feeling, a particular scene, a look. I'm still trying to work out for myself when I felt Kylo was in love with Rey, rather than falling in love.

I'm hoping we get some really varied answers so I can go and explore some more and see if I can be persuaded to Rey being in love more than I see her so far. 

hm, that's really an interesting question. Are one of them / or both already in love?

I don't think they are quite there yet...

My personal opinion: there was clearly attraction between them already in TFA and in TLJ they come to care for each other - then during the hand touch scene I see infatuation. BUT I don't think it's real unconditional love - yet. They both need to learn and understand the other better for that. And they hardly spent time together in real life. That's why I hope in IX we get a situation where they get some quality time alone- just the two of them.

I don't think Kylo or Rey really understands or has a name for what they feel. They just "feel" it. Both act very much on impulse. They're emotional. They literally reach out with their feelings, taking these incredible leaps of faith without considering why. There's something so innocent about them, like two young teenagers experiencing this unknown thing for the first time. They're so nervous they literally tremble.

So, I think they feel something incredibly intense, but I don't think they really know what that something is. They feel drawn to each other physically and emotionally, but I don't think they know why. Like, from my perspective, Kylo's not thinking "I 'love' this girl, but rather "I feel this kinship, this connection, this familiarity, and something I... can't quite place. I need her with me but I don't really know why". Rey, likewise, wouldn't be able to rationalize telling Kylo to cover himself, attacking Luke in his defense, dressing up to go save him, and standing up for him against Snoke. The look of disappointment on her face at the end is so pained and genuine. She cares immensely for whatever she saw when they touched hands, she cares immensely for him even if feels she shouldn't, but she definitely doesn't fully know why.

To answer your question, I think they feel "love' for each other (they're definitely physically infatuated) but I don't think they would be able acknowledge their feelings for what they are because they have no experience by which to understand what it is to love another person in "that" way (romantically/sexually/spiritually). Their feelings also are not unconditional and selfless.

Night Huntress wrote:hm, that's really an interesting question. Are one of them / or both already in love?

I don't think they are quite there yet...

My personal opinion: there was clearly attraction between them already in TFA and in TLJ they come to care for each other - then during the hand touch scene I see infatuation. BUT I don't think it's real unconditional love - yet. They both need to learn and understand the other better for that. And they hardly spent time together in real life. That's why I hope in IX we get a situation where they get some quality time alone- just the two of them.

@Night Huntress

Good point about it not being unconditional love yet...

MyOnlyHope wrote:I don't think Kylo or Rey really understands or has a name for what they feel. They just "feel" it. Both act very much on impulse. They're emotional. They literally reach out with their feelings, taking these incredible leaps of faith without considering why. There's something so innocent about them, like two young teenagers experiencing this unknown thing for the first time. They're so nervous they literally tremble.

So, I think they feel something incredibly intense, but I don't think they really know what that something is. They feel drawn to each other physically and emotionally, but I don't think they know why. Like, from my perspective, Kylo's not thinking "I 'love' this girl, but rather "I feel this kinship, this connection, this familiarity, and something I... can't quite place. I need her with me but I don't really know why". Rey, likewise, wouldn't be able to rationalize telling Kylo to cover himself, attacking Luke in his defense, dressing up to go save him, and standing up for him against Snoke. The look of disappointment on her face at the end is so pained and genuine. She cares immensely for whatever she saw when they touched hands, she cares immensely for him even if feels she shouldn't, but she definitely doesn't fully know why.

To answer your question, I think they feel "love' for each other (they're definitely physically infatuated) but I don't think they would be able acknowledge their feelings for what they are because they have no experience by which to understand what it is to love another person in "that" way (romantically/sexually/spiritually). Their feelings also are not unconditional and selfless.

@MyOnlyHope

Yes, you've put it in a better way than I have, they don't have the past experience to know what it is they are experiencing.

Good points already.

I think Kylo and Rey 100% feel something for each other. I don't know yet that I would describe it as love because I don't think they as characters know that yet. They obviously have intense feelings for each other and each has this desire to be with the other but I don't think either know what they feel.

One thing I am excited to see is how these feelings continue to grow and manifest as they are separated and how episode IX goes. Eventually, I think they will get to the point that they both realize it is love but the struggle with these feelings they share will be fascinating to watch.

whisperingwillow wrote:I think Kylo and Rey 100% feel something for each other. I don't know yet that I would describe it as love because I don't think they as characters know that yet. They obviously have intense feelings for each other and each has this desire to be with the other but I don't think either know what they feel.

One thing I am excited to see is how these feelings continue to grow and manifest as they are separated and how episode IX goes. Eventually, I think they will get to the point that they both realize it is love but the struggle with these feelings they share will be fascinating to watch.

@whisperingwillow

Yes, definitely to the bold bit.
Hmm, I wonder if I should rename the thread?
I suppose love is a strong word, I've just seen it mentioned in relation to them so much, I thought that was the popular view, but perhaps it's not.

Suggestions for a better title,  anyone?

Let The Past Die wrote:

whisperingwillow wrote:I think Kylo and Rey 100% feel something for each other. I don't know yet that I would describe it as love because I don't think they as characters know that yet. They obviously have intense feelings for each other and each has this desire to be with the other but I don't think either know what they feel.

One thing I am excited to see is how these feelings continue to grow and manifest as they are separated and how episode IX goes. Eventually, I think they will get to the point that they both realize it is love but the struggle with these feelings they share will be fascinating to watch.

@whisperingwillow

Hmm, I wonder if I should rename the thread?
I suppose love is a strong word, I've just seen it mentioned in relation to them so much, I thought that was the popular view, but perhaps it's not.

Suggestions for a better title, anyone?

@Let The Past Die

I think your title is perfectly fine. Beginning to fall in love is what I would call it. They just don't know yet that that is what is happening.

@Let The Past Die no, I think the title is great    - because that's exactly their endgame...unconditional real love- and they're on their journey to that...

MyOnlyHope wrote:I don't think Kylo or Rey really understands or has a name for what they feel. They just "feel" it. Both act very much on impulse. They're emotional. They literally reach out with their feelings, taking these incredible leaps of faith without considering why. There's something so innocent about them, like two young teenagers experiencing this unknown thing for the first time. They're so nervous they literally tremble.

So, I think they feel something incredibly intense, but I don't think they really know what that something is. They feel drawn to each other physically and emotionally, but I don't think they know why. Like, from my perspective, Kylo's not thinking "I 'love' this girl, but rather "I feel this kinship, this connection, this familiarity, and something I... can't quite place. I need her with me but I don't really know why". Rey, likewise, wouldn't be able to rationalize telling Kylo to cover himself, attacking Luke in his defense, dressing up to go save him, and standing up for him against Snoke. The look of disappointment on her face at the end is so pained and genuine. She cares immensely for whatever she saw when they touched hands, she cares immensely for him even if feels she shouldn't, but she definitely doesn't fully know why.

To answer your question, I think they feel "love' for each other (they're definitely physically infatuated) but I don't think they would be able acknowledge their feelings for what they are because they have no experience by which to understand what it is to love another person in "that" way (romantically/sexually/spiritually). Their feelings also are not unconditional and selfless.

@MyOnlyHope

I can see how their relationship will be described as the love story for the ages, because you cannot really brand it in the usual stages of 'falling in love' or 'being in love'. What they've done is much more authentic and deconstructed than that. It's like how the prequels have described love as compassion, which is part of what they share. Compassion for the enemy above all the odds as well as a unique sense of belonging they could not have found anywhere else. TLJ made their relationship so pure. Like everyone has mentioned here, they haven't even begin to realise what it is that they're feeling. And of course, all the feelings or the raw material of what makes 'love' love is there, but neither of them have embraced it fully. Hence, that was why Ben's proposal went down the wrong track and Rey shut the door temporarily on him. Is it love, yes, in its most fundamental and abstract form. But it is also maybe just a little too premature to call the relationship love, since the characters do not even comprehend the concept themselves.

Night Huntress wrote:@Let The Past Die no, I think the title is great    - because that's exactly their endgame...unconditional real love- and they're on their journey to that...

@Night Huntress  and @whisperingwillow

Thanks both, I'll leave it then.  

thescavenger wrote:I can see how their relationship will be described as the love story for the ages, because you cannot really brand it in the usual stages of 'falling in love' or 'being in love'. What they've done is much more authentic and deconstructed than that. It's like how the prequels have described love as compassion, which is part of what they share. Compassion for the enemy above all the odds as well as a unique sense of belonging they could not have found anywhere else. TLJ made their relationship so pure. Like everyone has mentioned here, they haven't even begin to realise what it is that they're feeling. And of course, all the feelings or the raw material of what makes 'love' love is there, but neither of them have embraced it fully. Hence, that was why Ben's proposal went down the wrong track and Rey shut the door temporarily on him. Is it love, yes, in its most fundamental and abstract form. But it is also maybe just a little too premature to call the relationship love, since the characters do not even comprehend the concept themselves.

@thescavenger

I'm loving all these points, I've bolded the point that caught my eye. Love is such a multilayered concept, in real life it's interesting the twists and turns it takes when one falls in love. In a movie, they have to pace everything differently. One of the things I wish we had in the movie is a force bond scene between, the shirtless scene and the hand scene. For me it would have helped show how Rey's feelings were more fluent in changing, as she changed very quickly (I realise the mirror cave helped with showing the progression) from one emotion to another.
Kylo on the other hand for me at least, has been more consistent, showing a more natural progression.

After thinking it over in my head awhile, I came to conclusion that Kylo is in love with her. The desperation in the "please" and his crazy reaction to her rejection does that for me. As brilliantly posted above though, he doesn't know it's love but he has that feeling attributable to what love should be? I guess it comes down to what love means to people. I always had a hard time defining it but came down to the general idea that you would not be able to go about the rest of your life without this person by your side. I think he definitely sees that in her but he doesn't know what love is and along with his baggage, he doesn't know how to properly express himself or navigate these feelings.

I think Rey deeply cares for him but I don't think she's in love with him (yet!). Kylo only has Rey, but Rey has her whole resistance family. She didn't really want him to the extent that he needed her. That's why I do hope in 9 we will see Rey realize that she misses him solely for their emotional connection. I hope they show this well because Kylo's my fave at this point and I want him to be happy and to be with someone who wants him badly as much as he wants her.

I tend to believe that when you know, you know. Real life experience being applied to fiction, I suppose. So, take this with a grain of salt.

I think he's in love with her. The way he looks at her? How torn up he is when she seems to betray him? It's all there.
Now, does she love him? I think she does. She's impulsive, sure. But she did something so amazing for him in trying to save him the way she did. But she feels betrayed as well.

So, I'm not sure they know they are "in love" per se, but they are. What I mean is that they probably don't have the vocabulary for it yet. But to to me "You are not alone." "Neither are you." is their way of professing their connection to (and their love for) each other.
JMO

Yes and no in my opinion. You can love someone without realizing it and by the time you do it's like, "Oh, I'm in love, when did that happen?" Suppose it's a part of that slow burn thing.

Are they what young people call “talking?”

I already love this thread Great idea @Let The Past Die
Answering this question, I think it all comes down to the how we are defining 'Love' - it has so many different shades, dimensions, types, and qualities.
i.e. What is love?

I can't help it.. this question always makes me think of this SNL skit!
What a terrible contribution I make to this conversation!

MyOnlyHope wrote: I don't think Kylo or Rey really understands or has a name for what they feel. They just "feel" it. Both act very much on impulse. They're emotional. They literally reach out with their feelings, taking these incredible leaps of faith without considering why. There's something so innocent about them, like two young teenagers experiencing this unknown thing for the first time. They're so nervous they literally tremble.

So, I think they feel something incredibly intense, but I don't think they really know what that something is. They feel drawn to each other physically and emotionally, but I don't think they know why. Like, from my perspective, Kylo's not thinking "I 'love' this girl, but rather "I feel this kinship, this connection, this familiarity, and something I... can't quite place. I need her with me but I don't really know why". Rey, likewise, wouldn't be able to rationalize telling Kylo to cover himself, attacking Luke in his defense, dressing up to go save him, and standing up for him against Snoke. The look of disappointment on her face at the end is so pained and genuine. She cares immensely for whatever she saw when they touched hands, she cares immensely for him even if feels she shouldn't, but she definitely doesn't fully know why.

To answer your question, I think they feel "love' for each other (they're definitely physically infatuated) but I don't think they would be able acknowledge their feelings for what they are because they have no experience by which to understand what it is to love another person in "that" way (romantically/sexually/spiritually). Their feelings also are not unconditional and selfless.

@MyOnlyHope I love what you did there You incorporated AD's quote where he shared his character's thoughts on Rey beautifully.. there's something... something... lol
edited to add:
here is the AD quote:
“He has been aware of this ability in himself from such a young age, and I don’t think there’s a lot of people around him who are on the same level,” the actor says. “I think that there is something familiar there, as well as something to be feared, or something … that he can’t quite place.”
source: http://ew.com/movies/2017/11/19/star-wars-kylo-ren-vs-rey-the-last-jedi/

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Are they what young people call “talking?”

@Cowgirlsamurai

Ha! Maybe. But I think he's more like the Emo Kylo Ren on Twitter - (paraphrasing) "We held hands so we're married, right?" Her response "Get your head out of your throne room, you're on the couch." No way has she kicked him out of the spaceship.

Cowgirlsamurai wrote:Are they what young people call “talking?”

@Cowgirlsamurai

LMAO

I think that Kylo has been falling in love with her (maybe infatuation is a better term?)....and I think that Rey has been falling in love with Ben Solo.

At some point, Kylo's love will need to evolve from the selfish/infatuation stage to something more understanding of her wants and needs.

Rey, on the other hand, will need to accept Kylo being a part of him (unless we're getting a "cursed prince" scenario where Ben Solo fully returns at some point in IX). She'll also need to evolve from the selfish stage of wanting him to help the Resistance to simply wanting him for him.

I don't think either of them could truly recognise and pin down their feelings for each at this stage, but yeah I'd say that Kylo is hopelessly in love.

Rey is harder to gauge, because the film obscures some crucial points and moments. We don't know what exactly she saw in her hand-holding vision that got her so invested, and we missed out completely on the immediate aftermath of the throne room scene. Her reaction to Kylo in their last scene is the only glimpse of where her head's at, and it's still something of a stone-faced reaction.

Night Huntress wrote:hm, that's really an interesting question. Are one of them / or both already in love?

I don't think they are quite there yet...

My personal opinion: there was clearly attraction between them already in TFA and in TLJ they come to care for each other - then during the hand touch scene I see infatuation. BUT I don't think it's real unconditional love - yet. They both need to learn and understand the other better for that. And they hardly spent time together in real life. That's why I hope in IX we get a situation where they get some quality time alone- just the two of them.  

@Night Huntress

THIS. I cannot imagine any other plot device for them to finally fully understand each other and realized their love for each other, other than that they have to go on an adventure together, go through dangerous life-threatening moments together ALONE (I don't mind Chewie and the droids tagging along, lol)

Maybe that is why I had troubles picturing a happy ending for them after my first viewing of TLJ. Bcos Snoke is dead, he is the Supreme Leader, and that makes it very small chance for them to go for an adventure together alone, unless Hux managed to take over FO.

To answer the thread's question. I agree with you all. They have not realized they're in love yet. But actually I think Kylo is "more there" than Rey.

Having seen this movie 6 times, each time reaffirms for me that he's in love with her. She cares for him, but he's head over heels. I guess my definition of "love" is more broad. Like I don't doubt Anakin and Padme were in love with each other, even if it wasn't the healthiest and most evolved version of love. Same with Rey and Ben. It was infatuation in TFA - his villainous crush and her curiosity. At the beginning of TLJ he didn't know how to feel about her and she thought him a monster, but that quickly evolved due to the Force connection and the shared loneliness. I do see Ben being deeper in than Rey, just like he's more fixated in TFA, and I base this in how I read their facial expressions and vocal tone. She for sure cares for him, but man alive the looks he gives her when he's touching her hand for the first time and in the elevator when he tells her she'll stand by him - you can actually hear the smile in his voice! When she shared with him about her dark side cave, I think that's when that man fell head over heels - again, you can hear it in his voice when he tells her she's not alone. It pains him because he knows what that level of loneliness feels like, and then she offers her hand to him, offers to be together rather than alone. When he touches her hand, he looks like he utterly adores her but he has no clue just how bad he's got it, he's just there being present with her. Then in the elevator he's completely smitten, with a healthy dose of lust thrown into the mix. (I guess SmutHut must have been pretty good ) When she gets into his space and says he'll turn he gets this knowing look on his face, and from that point forward he looks like he's about to escort her into their honeymoon suite and may just start the festivities before they leave the elevator. But I don't think he realizes what's happened to him until he's on his knees with the door slammed in his face and the pair of dice disappear. Then it hits like a ton of bricks. Like I would expect him to start IX completely love sick and post-breakup depressed.

I most assuredly believe they both need to work toward a more mature level of loving each other. He has got to move from selfish fixation to selfless adoration, as I've always advocated for in his redemption arc. And she learned a hard lesson in TLJ - you can't save someone else's soul, no matter how much you care for them. They'll each have to grow independently in order to come back together as a unified, balanced whole. They've already fallen in love though, him more deeply than her.

@MeadowofAshes - 100% what you said and also thank you for giving me the laugh when I need it (going through paperwork Hell at the moment) with the line "Looks like he's about to escort her into their honeymoon suite " for the Throne Room.

The seeds are there for them and the Force sure does continue to push them along towards connecting and working with each other and then breaking them apart when they need a time out to get their sh*t together and grow up a little more. It would've ended up disaster if she'd accepted the "I can show you the ways of the Force" offer. Snoke would've had him kill her and w/out Force Time plus time to suffer over Han's murder, Ben wouldn't have had the strength to go against Snoke. Ditto if she'd gone along with his idea to be galatic prom king and prom queen, all her friends would've been killed, the spark of Resistance against the FO would've died, and that scenario is precarious enough with Hux in play. Offers #1 and #2 would've resulted in tragedy/death for her and likely not much better for him - just like his grandparents in the PT. So them being apart on opposite sides will ideally be the time to "work toward a more mature level of loving each other." And definitely it has to be his decision that he wants to leave the destructive (both to himself and others) path he's been on in order to fulfill their intertwined destiny (and the boner he has so bad for her).

Also I think that there have been two tests for Rey between the two movies where she's been offered something she desperately wanted, but which would've involved compromising her values/hurting the larger cause. #1 was turning down Plutt's offer of 60 portions for BB-8 when she's kept by him on the knife edge of hunger. It was more food than she'd ever seen, but she wasn't going to sell out BB-8, who's her first real friend. That option would've spelled doom for Luke/the Resistance (really, Luke should've been nicer to her), and would've been her doing to BB-8 what her parents did to her (which was traumatic enough that she created an entire false memory around the experience). It's also a show of her strength and character. Another thing is that if she'd accepted Plutt's offer, BB-8 would've been turned over to the FO. Likely Hux would've had the poor sweet little droid turned into scrap metal, Rey would've lived out the rest of her life as a lonely hermit on Jakku, Finn probably would've been killed on Jakku and not helped the Resistance with taking out SKB, Kylo would've continued down the Dark Path until Snoke decided to get rid of him, Han and Leia would've never seen each other again et cetera : (

#2 was obviously turning down Ben, no matter how much she'd started to care about him, was on his side about what had happened to him with Luke, and had him standing there giving her puppy eyes with 'Please.' She's just as hungry for companionship and belonging (a primary reason why she turned down offer #1) as she is for food. But same thing - it would've ended up in disaster for the larger galactic balance of Light/Dark and likely also ended up in death/tragedy for her and Ben the same way things turned out for his grandparents in the PT.